Bob Flaw Spleen

[Guest guest]

Hi Victoria,

 

In one of your posts you mentioned a Bob Flaw article on the spleen.

Where would I find this please?

 

I'm proving quite interesting too I think - my pattern is lots of

phlegm/damp with spleen qi deficiency and some heart fire, more

gallbladder than liver. I did very well on all counts on the first

prescription, even in ways I did not know would be affected (like

sleep improving). Then we added some ren shen because I was still

very tired, and boom - thumping heart and stomach complaining! So,

have to backpeddle a bit I guess. Shame, I feel quite energised and

I'm losing a fair bit of weight without even trying!

 

Jackie

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 02/12/2002 19:44:26 GMT Standard Time,

victoria_dragon writes:

 

>

> Found it! I'm forwarding it in in a separate post.

 

 

Whoo - that's a whole heap of information!

 

>

> I believe it's this article where Flaws talks about ren shen

> (ginseng) being contraindicated for people with gu problems,

>

>

 

 

He says people with gu zheng conditions. He explained gu was a type of chong,

parasite, that seemed might correspond to eg candidiasis, but did not say

what zheng meant? I searched under google, and gu zheng seems to be the name

of a chinese zither!!??

 

 

and

 

> codonopsitis (dang shen) being substituted for ren shen in formulas

> for these people.

 

 

I had two types of atractylodes in there already. He took something out when

adding ren shen, but I did not see what. I think actually it might have made

me hypertensive. I've never been measured as such in a doctors surgery,

always normal, but this feels like I think it might feel - ie even when my

heart is not beating fast, I can feel the pulse wave is stronger, feel it in

various parts of my body too sometimes, or hear it strongly in my ear on a

pillow. Any takers, anyone know what that feeling is?

 

>

> Sometimes the tiredness may take a while to correct.

 

 

Yes, I think I'd rather go slow - especially with Christmas coming, I'm bound

to make some dietary errors. My chap agreed with Bob Flaw on diet too -

warned me off bread, sweet stuff and dairy/cheese - anything 'sticky' beause

of the phlegm/damp. Been avoiding sweet stuff for years (since a year of

candida diet) but doing without bread again was a bit of a shock! Worked a

treat though (rice cakes to the rescue).

 

> Very often when TCM imbalances are corrected, a person who is

> overweight will start to lose the excess weight without dieting or

> trying thanks to the improved health.

>

 

 

Yes I felt it immediately - there is a distinct feeling you get in your tummy

when you are losing weight, and I had it the morning after the first dose. I

think I've lost about 10lb in three weeks - I didn't weight myself before

though. Would you like to know the herbs - is that done?

 

Chen Pi - Pericarpium Citrus reticulata blanco (Rutaceae)

Fa Ban Xia - Pinellia rhizome

Fu Ling - Poria

Zhu Ru - bamboo shavings

Zhi Ke: Citrus aurantium.

Yi Yi Ren -Coix, Job's tears,

Bai Zhu - atractylodes alba

Cang zhu- atractylodes

Yu Jin - Turmeric root, NOT turmeric

Gan Cao - Licorice

 

Looked them all up of course, and they all seem well approriate to me.

 

Jackie

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> In one of your posts you mentioned a Bob Flaw article on the

spleen.

> Where would I find this please?

 

Found it! I'm forwarding it in in a separate post.

 

I had trouble locating it. Google didn't turn it up easily, and

several tries in the message base didn't either. I finally got it by

typing in Dong-yuan.

 

Because of this, I'm forwarding in the entire article and not just

the link so it will be easier to find next time. (This article

contains a lot of good information.)

 

> I'm proving quite interesting too I think - my pattern is lots of

> phlegm/damp with spleen qi deficiency and some heart fire, more

> gallbladder than liver.

 

I think you will find this article very interesting and a possible

considering your mention of Spleen Deficiency and Heart Fire.

 

> I did very well on all counts on the first

> prescription, even in ways I did not know would be affected (like

> sleep improving). Then we added some ren shen because I was still

> very tired, and boom - thumping heart and stomach complaining!

 

I believe it's this article where Flaws talks about ren shen

(ginseng) being contraindicated for people with gu problems, and

codonopsitis (dang shen) being substituted for ren shen in formulas

for these people.

 

Sometimes the tiredness may take a while to correct.

 

For those new to TCM: This article gets fairly deep so please don't

be turned off by it and think that you'll never be able to understand

TCM. But if you suffer from something like recurring yeast

infections, Leaky Gut Syndrome, autoimmune problems, CFIDS, or MS,

you may want to wade through it. Just ask questions about anything

you don't understand or would like more information on, and someone

on here will answer your questions. I can just about guarantee that

there is someone else on the list who has the same questions you do

but is not asking them and will be grateful if someone else asks.

 

> have to backpeddle a bit I guess. Shame, I feel quite energised and

> I'm losing a fair bit of weight without even trying!

 

Weight problems frequently have a Root of Qi Deficiency with

Dampness/ Phlegm accumulation. Interior Wind may also be present.

(Three things which can generate Interior Wind: Very high fevers,

Liver Yang Rising, and Liver Blood Deficiency. Since the Spleen not

only plays such a privotal role in Qi formation in the body but also

Blood formation, if the Spleen Deficiency goes on long enough, there

will be Blood as well as Qi Deficiency.)

 

Very often when TCM imbalances are corrected, a person who is

overweight will start to lose the excess weight without dieting or

trying thanks to the improved health.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

What sort of symptoms did your various intolerances cause Victoria? I have

avoided what I have in the past purely because of rebound hypoglycemia -

never really noticed a problem with any particular food, just high carb

food/meals - I seem to need more protein in each meal, and am fine if I eat

protein alone. But I know I have a way high insulin, even after years

avoiding sugars.

 

Jackie

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jackie wrote:

 

> Yes, I think I'd rather go slow - especially with

> Christmas coming, I'm bound

> to make some dietary errors. My chap agreed with Bob

> Flaw on diet too -

> warned me off bread, sweet stuff and dairy/cheese -

> anything 'sticky' beause

> of the phlegm/damp. Been avoiding sweet stuff for

> years (since a year of

> candida diet) but doing without bread again was a

> bit of a shock! Worked a

> treat though (rice cakes to the rescue).

 

Here in the US, there are several wheat alternatives -

spelt bread, brown rice or quinoa pasta... I also have

damp/weak spleen and my acupuncturist said avoid whear

and dairy. I'm finding the wheat is easier to give up

as there are more alternatives. I'm working on the

dairy.....

 

sue

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

> Here in the US, there are several wheat alternatives -

> spelt bread, brown rice or quinoa pasta... I also have

> damp/weak spleen and my acupuncturist said avoid whear

> and dairy. I'm finding the wheat is easier to give up

> as there are more alternatives. I'm working on the

> dairy.....

 

Here is a link to a list of links on problems with milk:

 

http://www.panix.com/~nomilk/

 

These are written from a Western perspective, but some of them

contain info on avoiding milk. Which by the way, is not easy to do.

(Voice of experience.)

 

I had so many problems from both a Western and Chinese medical

perspective that the least little bit of milk in any form could send

me to ER. Even the lactose used as filler/binder in pills. For a

while there if the medicine didn't come as a patch, liquid, shot, or

suppository, I didn't want it.

 

I cleared the wheat allergy long before the problems with dairy. I

got to the point where I could eat bread if it was made with water

instead of milk. When I ate out (which wasn't very often for obvious

reasons), I had to ask if the rolls were made with water or milk?

(Talk about funny looks.)

 

There also is the problem of hidden milk. Some margarines are made

with dairy, some are not. When a packaged food lists ingredients, it

just lists " margarine " , not what the margarine is made with. Not tht

I recommend margarine. Butter is a lot safer than margarine. But

when you're out and about and the low blood sugar kicks in, one

cannot always get what is best for one.

 

When grocery shopping, after a while my mind and vision both would

blur from reading labels, and I would miss milk under one of its

different names. The only way to be sure is to buy kosher, but there

wasn't a kosher deli where I lived. (Kosher has strict restrictions

against mixing dairy and meat at the same meal, so foods that can be

eaten with either (which contain neither) are clearly labeled. I

forget the term.)

 

Eventually as my Spleen and overall health improved, a lot of

allergies cleared. I now can handle a little dairy. I wouldn't dare

try to drink a class of milk, but yogurt actually helps.

 

During the time wheat was out, vegetable sphagetti was a good

substitute. Naturally I couldn't use cheese on this sphagetti, but

it was still good. Also a good way to get veggies to family members

who don't like veggies. (It's a squash that you boil, and when you

open it up, you get long, pasta-like threads. It's called sphagetti

squash.)

 

I used to make meat loaf with cooked beans instead of bread crumbs or

oatmeal. I couldn't handle oatmeal or rice at the time either.

 

I can take a while, but Spleens can recover.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

When dating Monsieur LeGrand I was informed there was no substitute

for butter, not in French cooking.

I hadn't had butter or margerine in my house for years and years

before.

It took me quite a while before I could convince my monsieur that

dairy products were probably exasperating the chronic adventure he was

having with his sinuses.

 

I buy my flax seed oil in small quantities and keep it in the

refrigerater and, these days, my monsieur agrees olive oil is an

excellent medium of delivery for his " sacred " garlic.

He uses it wherever one would dump butter; potatoes, bread, greens et

cetera.

 

Another thing, is there really all that much written about dairy

products in TCM?

I've never see much of it in Asian stores nor mention of it in the

cook books.

 

Penel

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 05/12/2002 14:02:18 GMT Standard Time,

victoria_dragon writes:

 

 

> This is not a case of gee, I'm bored, I think I'll eat something.

> This is cold sweats, nausea, mental confusion, stomach cramping, pass

> out if I don't eat hunger.

 

 

Yes, I know that only to well, I have spent may a year limping from fix to

fix and so stayed asymptomatic most of the time, but consumed a lot of extra

calories that way. Stress always seems to make it worse.

 

Jackie

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Another thing, is there really all that much written about dairy

> products in TCM?

> I've never see much of it in Asian stores nor mention of it in the

> cook books.

 

Most Asians are lactose intolerant so milk doesn't get used that

often in Asian cooking.

 

Knowing this, I thought I had discovered the perfect answer to my

severe problems with dairy. Chinese! But to be on the safe side, I

checked the list of ingredients on the packages of the first items I

bought. No milk in any form under any of its various names.

 

Then, one day for lunch, I fixed some kind of stir-fried, using a

package of seasoning mix I had bought the last time at the grocery

store. Within a couple of hours I was in ER in severe pain. I went

home, dug the package out of the garbage, and saw milk listed as an

ingredient. That was the end of that " fix " .

 

And I've never cared as much for Chinese since that day.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

> What sort of symptoms did your various intolerances cause Victoria?

I have

> avoided what I have in the past purely because of rebound

hypoglycemia -

> never really noticed a problem with any particular food, just high

carb

> food/meals - I seem to need more protein in each meal, and am fine

if I eat

> protein alone. But I know I have a way high insulin, even after

years

> avoiding sugars.

 

Very severe abdominal cramping and breathing problems. Phlegm in the

lungs. Weakness. Irritable Bowel Syndrome. Very irritable. The

pain was so bad I felt like I was going to pass out.

 

Have you ever had any kind of abdominal surgery like gall bladder

surgery. For some reason, people who have had abdominal surgery

often develop reactive hypoglycemia.

 

I tend to have the worst problems with hypoglycemia when a storm is

moving in. Increased humidity (Damp), low barometric pressure (Wind),

and drop in temperature (Cold).

 

If I overdo physically, I have more hypoglycemia problems. I

remember one night after an exercise class (this was a lot of years

ago), I was so hungry I ate 6 cups of yogurt. I felt like I was

starving. This was before the severe problems with dairy started, but

if I had known then what I know now, I would have eaten something

other than a dairy product.

 

This is not a case of gee, I'm bored, I think I'll eat something.

This is cold sweats, nausea, mental confusion, stomach cramping, pass

out if I don't eat hunger.

 

They hypoglycemia isn't nearly as bad as it once was, though it is

still a problem. Sometimes when out shopping or running errands I

have to stop and get something to eat. It helps a lot that I no

longer have to avoid so many foods.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

Hi Penel,

 

Historically, and mostly currently, the Chinese don't do dairy.

So for traditional Chinese recipes, you won't see it in the

cookbooks and therefore not in the stores, either.

Maybe someone else knows this, but I would presume discussion

of dairy in TCM came about mainly with it's entry into the West.

Kit

NB: In Tibet they drink yak butter tea....also used as 'lamp' oil.

 

 

>

> Another thing, is there really all that much written about dairy

> products in TCM?

> I've never see much of it in Asian stores nor mention of it in the

> cook books.

>

> Penel

[Guest guest]

<snip>

> But to be on the safe side, I

> checked the list of ingredients on the packages of the first items I

> bought.

 

Some Asian brands of dried noodle soups offer 2 different products by

the same name; one for Asian stores and another for Western stores.

The Asian comes with a little meltable ball of oil.

 

I've given up with most premixed packaged Asian products. The MSG sort

of scares me and then there's extra plain old sugar to deal with.

 

Most of the Chinese restaurants we see in the USA serve Cantonese even

if the Chinese people running the restaurant aren't. I've been told

they serve food like that because its what Americans expect.

:-/

 

In the past, most of the Chinese imigrants were from Canton.

 

Penel

[Guest guest]

" victoria_dragon " <victoria_dragon wrote:

 

> Here is a link to a list of links on problems with

> milk:

>

> http://www.panix.com/~nomilk/

>

> These are written from a Western perspective, but

> some of them

> contain info on avoiding milk. Which by the way, is

> not easy to do. (Voice of experience.)

 

I don't drink milk, using rice milk instead. It's

cheese and butter, with occasional sour cream that are

my weak points. Not to mention hot chocolate, and

chocolate, period!

 

> I cleared the wheat allergy long before the problems

> with dairy. I

> got to the point where I could eat bread if it was

> made with water

> instead of milk. When I ate out (which wasn't very

> often for obvious

> reasons), I had to ask if the rolls were made with

> water or milk? (Talk about funny looks.)

 

How did you clear the wheat allergy? Avoiding it for a

period of time or through another method?

 

> There also is the problem of hidden milk. Some

> margarines are made

> with dairy, some are not. When a packaged food

> lists ingredients, it

> just lists " margarine " , not what the margarine is

> made with. Not tht

> I recommend margarine. Butter is a lot safer than

> margarine. But

> when you're out and about and the low blood sugar

> kicks in, one

> cannot always get what is best for one.

 

I don't have a low blood sugar problem, thank heavens.

I think there's some `good' butter/margarine

substitutes available that I'll be checking in to. And

I know what you mean about hidden milk/dairy; I

thought my veggie burgers were great, till I realized

they had cheese. Next box will be vegan!

 

> Eventually as my Spleen and overall health improved,

> a lot of

> allergies cleared. I now can handle a little dairy.

> I wouldn't dare

> try to drink a class of milk, but yogurt actually

> helps.

 

I also eat some yogurt, which my acupuncturist said

would be okay, as well as cottage cheese. I think the

culturing process changes whatever one has a

sensitivity to in dairy. Which makes me wonder if sour

cream might be alright in small amounts.

 

> During the time wheat was out, vegetable sphagetti

> was a good

> substitute. Naturally I couldn't use cheese on this

> sphagetti, but

> it was still good. Also a good way to get veggies

> to family members

> who don't like veggies. (It's a squash that you

> boil, and when you

> open it up, you get long, pasta-like threads. It's

> called sphagetti squash.)

 

Yep, have had it; it's ok :-| as I mentioned, brown

rice, soy and quinoa pasta are available to me. And I

like them better.

 

> I can take a while, but Spleens can recover.

 

I think I may be seeing some result in only two weeks

and two treatments. My nose is a little less stuffy,

in spite of still having some wheat/dairy, and I seem

to have dropped about 5 pounds. Though I'm wondering

from where.... I know things would clear up faster

just eliminating the trouble foods, but I'm getting

there...

 

sue

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

> How did you clear the wheat allergy? Avoiding it for a

> period of time or through another method?

 

Part of clearing it was staying off wheat for a long time. Part of

it was strengthening my Spleen. Part of it was various supplements

like the fennel and thyme tea, echinacea, omega-3, and magnesium. Mg

plays a number of roles in the body's immune system. This includes

not only dealing with infections but also allergies. Echinacea is an

immune system regulator. It will boost what needs boosting (like in

fighting infections), but it also will tone down what needs toning

down (like in allergies).

 

People are advised not to take echinacea long-term. Don't stay on it

continuously, just for a couple of weeks as needed. I don't know if

there is anything to that or not, but I suspect some cases of CFIDS

may be an exception to this rule. Every time I stopped echinacea, I

started having problems again. (I wasn't just taking it for

allergies. I have a history of chronic and recurring mononucleosis.)

The more my overall health improves, the longer I can stay off it.

The last time I stayed off it was a period of several months. I did

have two colds during this time, and am back on it again.

 

I still have to tendency to be bothered by wheat, so I know not to

eat too much. But as long as I don't load up on it, I'm fine. I

don't have it with every meal.

 

My personal opinion is that variety is good in diet. At least it is

for me. The more different things one can eat, the more likely the

person is to receive everything s/he needs. And the less likely

allergies may develop. (Some of the diets for people with allergies

recommend rotation - don't eat the same food every day.) Our

ancestors had a much more varied diet than people in the U.S. have

today.

 

> I don't have a low blood sugar problem, thank heavens.

> I think there's some `good' butter/margarine

> substitutes available that I'll be checking in to. And

> I know what you mean about hidden milk/dairy; I

> thought my veggie burgers were great, till I realized

> they had cheese. Next box will be vegan!

 

There may also be a problem with some of the chemicals used in making

the commercial veggie burgers. I don't remember the details, but

some of them may harm brain cells.

 

My husband was lacto-vegetarian for a while. That was an interesting

time as he was a vegetarian who hated vegetables. I found a lot of

good recipes in the Horn of the Moon cookbook. (I think that is the

title.) These are real hardy, " stick to your ribs " recipes that

filled us up and didn't leave us still feeling hungry.

 

> I also eat some yogurt, which my acupuncturist said

> would be okay, as well as cottage cheese. I think the

> culturing process changes whatever one has a

> sensitivity to in dairy. Which makes me wonder if sour

> cream might be alright in small amounts.

 

There are different problems with cow dairy. Some people lack the

enzyme needed to digest milk sugar - lactose intolerance. They can

handle yogurt and cheese ok becaues the fermentation process converts

the lactose. I don't know about sour cream. There also is lactase

(the enzyme that digests milk sugar) available over the counter for

people who lack this enzyme or enough of it. Which, btw, is most of

the world's peoples. People of northern European ancestry are the

people most likely to have the enzyme, though not every northern

European has it or has enough of it.

 

Some people are allergic to the protein in milk. They cannot handle

yogurt or cheese because these do contain milk protein. They may or

may not be able to handle butter.

 

Some people are allergic to milk fat. They definitely cannot handle

butter. These people also tend to be allergic to coconut.

 

For some people, the problem is a weak Spleen. Dairy is one of the

most Damp-engendering, muccus-forming foods there is. Wheat also is

bad for creaing Dampness.

 

Any combination of these problems may be present.

 

> I think I may be seeing some result in only two weeks

> and two treatments. My nose is a little less stuffy,

> in spite of still having some wheat/dairy, and I seem

> to have dropped about 5 pounds. Though I'm wondering

> from where.... I know things would clear up faster

> just eliminating the trouble foods, but I'm getting

> there...

 

You're definitely on the right track.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

Victoria -

 

At 13:46 Uhr +0100 06.12.2002, victoria_dragon wrote:

/something snipped/

>My personal opinion is that variety is good in diet. At least it is

>for me. The more different things one can eat, the more likely the

>person is to receive everything s/he needs. And the less likely

>allergies may develop. (Some of the diets for people with allergies

>recommend rotation - don't eat the same food every day.) Our

>ancestors had a much more varied diet than people in the U.S. have

>today.

 

It just makes sense.

We have got a rich selection of food in all seasons.

Nobody can eat all possible healthy products during one day.

Same food every day would be boring.

Eating healthy food in variation, well prepared and served is

pure joy.

(I'm one of the few men whose wife cooks better than his mother,-)

 

>> I don't have a low blood sugar problem, thank heavens.

>> I think there's some `good' butter/margarine

>> substitutes available that I'll be checking in to.

 

I don't trust any margarine.

It's bad for cooking and I learned to put my spread (selfmade

prunes, raspberry marmelade) without it.

 

>There are different problems with cow dairy. Some people lack the

>enzyme needed to digest milk sugar - lactose intolerance. They can

>handle yogurt and cheese ok becaues the fermentation process converts

>the lactose. I don't know about sour cream. There also is lactase

>(the enzyme that digests milk sugar) available over the counter for

>people who lack this enzyme or enough of it. Which, btw, is most of

>the world's peoples. People of northern European ancestry are the

>people most likely to have the enzyme, though not every northern

>European has it or has enough of it.

>

>Some people are allergic to the protein in milk. They cannot handle

>yogurt or cheese because these do contain milk protein. They may or

>may not be able to handle butter.

>

>Some people are allergic to milk fat. They definitely cannot handle

>butter. These people also tend to be allergic to coconut.

>

>For some people, the problem is a weak Spleen. Dairy is one of the

>most Damp-engendering, muccus-forming foods there is. Wheat also is

>bad for creaing Dampness.

>

>Any combination of these problems may be present.

 

There is also the insuline-growth factor in milk - correlated to

cancer.

 

One reason for the (yet) low cancer rates in Asia may be the low

to zero milk consumption.

 

Regards

 

Peter