Guest guest Posted November 4, 1999 Report Share Posted November 4, 1999 --- <zrosenberg wrote: > " " <zrosenberg > > Funny you should mention NAET. > Students and graduates here are ga-ga about it. . . > .claim it 'works' for > everything. Really, it is glorified trigger-point > kinesiology therapy. and Robert, what is your experience and opinion > of this method? I got a quickie mini-seminar from a friend who took it a couple of years ago, and my opinion of it pretty much confirms your perception. At least from what my friend showed me. The only thing in it that had to do with Chinese medicine was the acupuncture points, which were pretty much a set one-size protocol of the most idiot-simple points, and the big secret is that you need to have the patient hold the vials of the " allergen " while stimulating the points. that's about it, as far as I could tell. The two things he mentioned that really bothered me were: 1) in order to have a successful NAET practice, the practitioner needed to buy an exclusive set of allergen testing bottles (there were different size kits, stater, deluxe, etc, if I remember correctly), and 2) in order to " clear " the allergies entirely, the patient had to submit to something like a course of 50 treatments, once a week (so basically treated consistently for one year). My retort was, if you could get patients to comply with that sort of regime, it wouldn't matter what you used. You could probably get the job done quicker with herbal medicine, acupuncture and moxibustion. This friend was using the protocol for a while, actually sprung for the starter allergen kit, I think, but two years later only uses it occasionally. So unless things have changed in the last two years, my impression of it is that it's kind of a scam. It's going to be taught here in December, the same weekend that I'm running a small moxibustion class. I managed to lure a couple of students away from NAET to learn to burn, so to speak. rh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2002 Report Share Posted October 29, 2002 Subhuti Dharmananda of ITM wrote an incisive article which debunks NAET quite soundly. I recommend it. Hillary Morris, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2002 Report Share Posted October 29, 2002 Hi Victoria, I've sent info from a site, below. It may seem strange but I sent it from a Vet NAET site. I did that because it includes surrogate treatment which is done on infants or people who are too qi deficient for treatment. I've also attached the google search results that are extensive. Kit The Nambudripad Allergy Elimination Technique NAET is a diagnostic and treatment technique, based on the principles of and developed primarily for humans, that has altered the lives of many people for the last 15 years through the work of Dr. Nambudripad and over two-thousand trained practitioners around the world. Evaluation and treatment consists of simple muscle response testing of various substances to determine the existence and extent of allergic sensitivities. NAET, which applies principles, through acupuncture, kinesiology and acupressure, is composed of two distinct modalities. The diagnostic method, human or animal, is Muscle Response Testing (MRT), while the treatment component involves stimulating the spinal nerves via acupressure to re-imprint the brain's recognition of the allergen. When used with animals, as with human infants, a human acts as the intermediary between the physician and the patient. The surrogate extends one arm and places the other hand on the patient. Various substances contained in glass vials are placed on the patient by the surrogate. While the vial is held against the patient, the practitioner applies downward pressure against the surrogate's extended arm, meanwhile, the surrogate attempts to resist this pressure. If a sensitivity to a substance is detected, the arm will go weak and the surrogate will be unable to resist the pressure being applied. Once the sensitivities are identified, a quick, painless and non-invasive acupressure treatment through the surrogate is used to rebalance the pet's nervous system response to the identified allergens. Muscle Testing is also utilized in the prescriptive phase to identify any additional necessary medications and to individualize dosages. Veterinary NAET recognizes three main categories of energy blockage: structural/environmental, chemical/nutritional and psychological/emotional. Conditions treated and resolved with Veterinary NAET, but not generally recognized to have an allergic basis, can include: eosinophilic lesions, toxic chemical reactions, vaccine reactions, Idiopathic' bowel disease, gingivitis, gastritis, cystitis, sinusitis, rhinitis, asthma, constipation, diabetes mellitus, chronic recurring infections, conjunctivitis, external otitis, dandruff, seborrheic dermatitis and pancreatitis, as well as the more commonly agreed-upon allergic conditions such as over-grooming, flea allergy dermatitis, food intolerance and allergic bronchitis. Besides environmental chemical and nutritional substances that can be identified and cleared, problem behaviors and emotional upsets can be resolved through Veterinary NAET as well. <http://www.vetnaet.com/about.html>http://www.vetnaet.com/about.html <http://www.google.com/search?as_q= & num=10 & hl=en & ie=ISO-8859-1 & btnG=Google+ Search & as_epq=naet & as_oq= & as_eq= & lr= & as_ft=i & as_filetype= & as_qdr=all & as_occt =any & as_dt=i & as_sitesearch= & safe=images>http://www.google.com/search?as_q= & num=10 & hl=en & ie=ISO-8859-1 & btnG=Google+Search & as_epq=naet & as_oq= & as_eq= & lr= & as_ft=i & as_filetype= & as_qdr=all & as_occt=any & as_dt=i & as_sitesearch= & safe=images At 02:37 PM 10/28/02 +0000, you wrote: > > Thanks, Kit. > > Could you go into more detail about NAET? There is not enough info > on the website to have a good idea of what it is. > > What will a visit be like? Please describe the tests. She gave the > names of the tests but did not describe what is involved in them. > > Thanks, > Victoria > > > I also know of a few TCM practitioners who have had success with > allergies > > and > > sensitivities by incorporating NAET (Nambudripad's Allergy > Elimination > > Techniques). > > And, some fellow students who swear by it. > > I live in " the allergy capitol of the world " , a favored test > location for > > allergy med > > companies. > > Kit > > > > > <<http://www.naet.com/>http://www.naet.com/><http://www.naet.com/>http://w > ww.naet.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2002 Report Share Posted October 29, 2002 Here's another link: http://allergies.about.com/library/weekly/aa071601a.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2002 Report Share Posted October 29, 2002 I like his work....got a link? Kit PS. So the people that it works for are undergoing placebo curing or it's just psychosomatic?! ....ooops...there's that word again...;-P At 11:44 AM 10/29/02 -0500, you wrote: > > Subhuti Dharmananda of ITM wrote an incisive article which debunks NAET quite > soundly. I recommend it. > > Hillary Morris, L.Ac. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 Chinese Traditional Medicine, Kit <kitcurtin@e...> wrote: > I like his work....got a link? > > Kit > > PS. So the people that it works for are undergoing placebo curing or > it's just psychosomatic?! ....ooops...there's that word again...;-P I worked for an acupuncturist who used NAET, along with a neuro-emotional technique, five element theory and TCM including herbs. The patients were much relieved - they felt better and their overall health improved. I think the reason people debunk NAET is they don't believe the patients have a `true' allergy. And they may not have had the IgE levels that are used to determine allergies. But reading Dr Devi's book (Devi Nambudripad, the originator of the system), and other articles on it, I think there's a strong emotional component to allergies that western medicine overlooks. For example, a young child sneaks a candy bar from the store. When mother discovers it, the child is taken back to the store, the police called, the child punished and the whole thing creates a big uproar and lots of tears and trauma for the child (this did actually happen to one patient). From then on, eating chocolate gave the child symptoms which could be classified as allergic ones. The body may not be reacting to the physical substance, but remembering the emotional trauma related to snitching that chocolate bar. I might not be explaining it very well, but that's the gist of it. After determining which substance is causing the problem, acupressure or acupuncture is used on certain points, specifically those related to the affected meridians or emotions engendered, while the patient holds a vial which has the same frequency charge as the substance. It is suggested the patient stay away from the substance, whether food or other, for about 25 hours after the treatment. It may take one to three treatments to completely eliminate the allergy. The symptoms (the allergy) are relieved and the patient begins to feel better. We had one patient who was severely allergic to food and environmental substances. She wanted to be treated for the environment things first as those were giving her the biggest hassle in daily life, but the Dr. started with the basics as outlined by NAET - eggs, wheat, dairy - the most allergenic foods. After going through a few of these, the patient found she could tolerate the other substances much better than before. Something like one allergy builds on top of another. It works and for the long term. The patients did not have a recurrence of allergic symptoms to substances they had been treated for. sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 I have also seen amazing results with NAET. Also, Dr. Dharmananda received his doctorate in Biology from the University of California, and is Director of the Institute for Traditional Medicine. He is not an acupunctuist practicing NAET. Last summer, I spoke with Subhuti about one of the seven forest formulas and how well it worked in clinic, an dhe informed me that the formula was not based on clinical results but research, and that he did not practice. So, his opinion of NAET, Bioset, etc. doesn't mean much in the light of clinical success. I have read many of his papers and they were well researched, but this paper went out on a limb, and no matter how elegantly its written, it missed the mark. As to the placebo effect, this does not explain the success that Veterinarians using NAET are having with animals. Michael There are always those who stand on the sidelines of life and make commentary, while others stuggle with the truth of what is, and what works. Chinese Traditional Medicine, " qiuser " <qiuser> wrote: > Chinese Traditional Medicine, Kit <kitcurtin@e...> wrote: > > I like his work....got a link? > > > > Kit > > > > PS. So the people that it works for are undergoing placebo curing > or > > it's just psychosomatic?! ....ooops...there's that word > again...;-P > > I worked for an acupuncturist who used NAET, along with a > neuro-emotional technique, five element theory and TCM including > herbs. The patients were much relieved - they felt better and their > overall health improved. I think the reason people debunk NAET is they > don't believe the patients have a `true' allergy. And they may not > have had the IgE levels that are used to determine allergies. But > reading Dr Devi's book (Devi Nambudripad, the originator of the > system), and other articles on it, I think there's a strong emotional > component to allergies that western medicine overlooks. > > For example, a young child sneaks a candy bar from the store. When > mother discovers it, the child is taken back to the store, the police > called, the child punished and the whole thing creates a big uproar > and lots of tears and trauma for the child (this did actually happen > to one patient). From then on, eating chocolate gave the child > symptoms which could be classified as allergic ones. The body may not > be reacting to the physical substance, but remembering the emotional > trauma related to snitching that chocolate bar. I might not be > explaining it very well, but that's the gist of it. > > After determining which substance is causing the problem, acupressure > or acupuncture is used on certain points, specifically those related > to the affected meridians or emotions engendered, while the patient > holds a vial which has the same frequency charge as the substance. It > is suggested the patient stay away from the substance, whether food or > other, for about 25 hours after the treatment. It may take one to > three treatments to completely eliminate the allergy. The symptoms > (the allergy) are relieved and the patient begins to feel better. We > had one patient who was severely allergic to food and environmental > substances. She wanted to be treated for the environment things first > as those were giving her the biggest hassle in daily life, but the Dr. > started with the basics as outlined by NAET - eggs, wheat, dairy - the > most allergenic foods. After going through a few of these, the patient > found she could tolerate the other substances much better than before. > Something like one allergy builds on top of another. > > It works and for the long term. The patients did not have a recurrence > of allergic symptoms to substances they had been treated for. > > sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 In a message dated 10/29/2002 2:14:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, kitcurtin writes: I like his work....got a link? Kit PS. So the people that it works for are undergoing placebo curing or it's just psychosomatic?! ....ooops...there's that word again...;-P itmonline.org is his link i think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 Thanks, Kit, for the additional details. > I've sent info from a site, below. It may seem strange but I sent it from a > Vet NAET site. I did > that because it includes surrogate treatment which is done on infants or > people > who are too qi > deficient for treatment. Sometimes the vet sites can have a wealth of info that also applies to humans. > patient. Various substances contained in glass vials are placed on the patient > by the surrogate. While the vial is held against the patient, the practitioner > applies downward pressure against the surrogate's extended arm, meanwhile, the > surrogate attempts to resist this pressure. One thing I want readers to be aware of is that this test can create localized Qi Stagnation in some individuals. If you have a client who develops a severe headache after the test (on the side of the body that was tested), chances are this is what happened. This usually will be a person who already has channel (meridian) problems and a susceptibility to Exterior Pernicious Evils (Heat, Cold, Damp, Dryness, and/or Wind). " Another frequent cause of channel problem is from over-use of a limb or part of the body, giving rise to local stagnation of Qi. Anyone who, because of their work circumstances, has to constantly repeat the same movements, will be liable to suffer from channel problems, manifesting with local stagnation of Qi. " (Giovanni Maciocia, The Foundations of , p. 308.) This also applies to this type of muscle testing in which the client has to repeatedly resist pressure applied to the arm. I know because it happened to me. The chiropractor did not know why it happened, but treatment left me with an especially severe headache. He was a very decent guy and attempted to correct the headache (free session), but he didn't really know how to correct the problem or what had caused it. At the time I didn't either. This was a few years before I found out about TCM. This was many years ago. I think this kind of testing and treatment still was fairly new back then, and there still was a lot to be discovered about it. I wasn't certain that this is what you were talking about until you went into details about the test. I can't say the treatment helped my allergies any, but mine was a special case. The Qi Stagnation problems the test created and the extremely severe headache that resulted interfered with any true evaluation and possible benefits. After the test I did eventually realize that any time I over-used an arm in any way for anything, I ended up with a severe headache on that side of the body. This did enable me to avoid some headaches. (I still had a lot to learn back then about the headaches I suffered from. Changes in weather also triggered headaches, particularly when the weather turned cooler. Maciocia also lists invasion by Exterior Pernicious Evils as a cause of problems in the channels. Along with sports injuries (or any trauma) and along with Interior Organ imbalances. Victoria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 >Something like one allergy builds on top of another. I have heard this, too. Actually from an RN years ago. The allergic reactions that were consider common are actually severe because our body has gone past it's 'threshhold'. My chiropractor also felt that more subtle things going on in the body were due to allergies .... Thanks for other insights as well. Kit At 04:33 AM 10/30/02 +0000, you wrote: > > Chinese Traditional Medicine, Kit <kitcurtin@e...> wrote: > > I like his work....got a link? > > > > Kit > > > > PS. So the people that it works for are undergoing placebo curing > or > > it's just psychosomatic?! ....ooops...there's that word > again...;-P > > I worked for an acupuncturist who used NAET, along with a > neuro-emotional technique, five element theory and TCM including > herbs. The patients were much relieved - they felt better and their > overall health improved. I think the reason people debunk NAET is they > don't believe the patients have a `true' allergy. And they may not > have had the IgE levels that are used to determine allergies. But > reading Dr Devi's book (Devi Nambudripad, the originator of the > system), and other articles on it, I think there's a strong emotional > component to allergies that western medicine overlooks. > > For example, a young child sneaks a candy bar from the store. When > mother discovers it, the child is taken back to the store, the police > called, the child punished and the whole thing creates a big uproar > and lots of tears and trauma for the child (this did actually happen > to one patient). From then on, eating chocolate gave the child > symptoms which could be classified as allergic ones. The body may not > be reacting to the physical substance, but remembering the emotional > trauma related to snitching that chocolate bar. I might not be > explaining it very well, but that's the gist of it. > > After determining which substance is causing the problem, acupressure > or acupuncture is used on certain points, specifically those related > to the affected meridians or emotions engendered, while the patient > holds a vial which has the same frequency charge as the substance. It > is suggested the patient stay away from the substance, whether food or > other, for about 25 hours after the treatment. It may take one to > three treatments to completely eliminate the allergy. The symptoms > (the allergy) are relieved and the patient begins to feel better. We > had one patient who was severely allergic to food and environmental > substances. She wanted to be treated for the environment things first > as those were giving her the biggest hassle in daily life, but the Dr. > started with the basics as outlined by NAET - eggs, wheat, dairy - the > most allergenic foods. After going through a few of these, the patient > found she could tolerate the other substances much better than before. > Something like one allergy builds on top of another. > > It works and for the long term. The patients did not have a recurrence > of allergic symptoms to substances they had been treated for. > > sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2002 Report Share Posted October 30, 2002 >As to the placebo effect, this does not explain the success that Veterinarians >using NAET are having with animals. Hi Michael, Thanks for the insight. Actually, I was being facetious. I am about to get NAET for my cat with allergies. And, as mentioned in previous post by Sue....I think this cat has had some emotional traumas as well. Kit At 06:19 AM 10/30/02 +0000, you wrote: > > I have also seen amazing results with NAET. > Also, Dr. Dharmananda received his doctorate in Biology from > the University of California, and is Director of the Institute > for Traditional Medicine. He is not an acupunctuist practicing > NAET. Last summer, I spoke with Subhuti about one of the seven > forest formulas and how well it worked in clinic, an dhe informed me > that the formula was not based on clinical results but research, and that > he did not practice. So, his opinion of NAET, Bioset, etc. doesn't > mean much in the light of clinical success. I have read many of his papers > and they were well researched, but this paper went out on a limb, and no > matter > how elegantly its written, it missed the mark. > As to the placebo effect, this does not explain the success that > Veterinarians > using NAET are having with animals. > > Michael > > There are always those who stand on the sidelines of life and make > commentary, > while others stuggle with the truth of what is, and what works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 On Feb 2, 2010, at 11:51 AM, michael_pingicer wrote: > This patient is also considering Nambudripad's Allergy > Elimination Technique (NAET). I have no experience with it, but if > anyone has any experiences with it, please let me know. This is currently a matter of strong personal interest for me. Given the primary practice, in the NAET protocol, of beginning with stimulation of the huatuojiaji points, and using BL 10 and BL 40, this leads me to wonder about the role of the BL/KI divergent channels in the " resolution " of the allergies. It seems to me that there is a strong possibility that NAET may in fact drive the pathogenic process deeper instead of resolving the condition. Combined with the 4 Gates, are we just in essence telling the wei qi, the body's first line of defense, " Shut up and stop reacting; this is not going to change so suck it up! " " Resolution " of allergies is monitored and confirmed, in the NAET system, through muscle testing. Muscle testing (which I do not practice) seems to me to be working with wei-level assessment of the body-- it is a tendono-muscular 'communication' system, or so it would seem. If something " clears " on the wei level, and one no longer exhibits these wei-level " allergic " responses, does that mean that it is resolved? Or have the divergent channels (BL/KI in particular) compensated for the induced neutralization of the sinew channels? What I have been thinking is that to answer these questions, at the very least we need people who are trained in taking divergent channel pulses to be present before and after some NAET treatments, in order to detect relevant pulse changes. I'd really love to have some good clinical data on this-- so far it's the only theory I can come up with for how the heck NAET actually works, and it's not a pretty thought, if it turns out to be true. Anyone else have any idea of the actual means by which NAET works, when it does work-- or any proof/disproof of the aforementioned Divergent channel theory? Thea Elijah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Thea, Interesting questions. Steve Alpern and I were discussing just this type of question a few months back, basically whether one could suppress disease patterns with acupuncture/moxa. The Shang Han Lun speaks in many places about huai bing/aggravated diseases, where wrong treatment can allow a disease evil to sink deeper into the body, for example from a tai yang wind strike pattern to a tai yin spleen vacuity one. I think your analysis of the NAET protocol holds water, and would be interested to see such a study as you propose carried out. I'd like to see a similar analysis of so-called 'battlefield acupuncture' as well. . . It goes without saying, that an acupuncturist should know how to use not only the regular channels, but the extraordinary vessels, tendinomuscular channels, divergents and other channels/vessels as well. . On Feb 2, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Thea Elijah wrote: > > On Feb 2, 2010, at 11:51 AM, michael_pingicer wrote: > > > This patient is also considering Nambudripad's Allergy > > Elimination Technique (NAET). I have no experience with it, but if > > anyone has any experiences with it, please let me know. > > This is currently a matter of strong personal interest for me. > > Given the primary practice, in the NAET protocol, of beginning with > stimulation of the huatuojiaji points, and using BL 10 and BL 40, this > leads me to wonder about the role of the BL/KI divergent channels in > the " resolution " of the allergies. It seems to me that there is a > strong possibility that NAET may in fact drive the pathogenic process > deeper instead of resolving the condition. Combined with the 4 Gates, > are we just in essence telling the wei qi, the body's first line of > defense, " Shut up and stop reacting; this is not going to change so > suck it up! " > > " Resolution " of allergies is monitored and confirmed, in the NAET > system, through muscle testing. Muscle testing (which I do not > practice) seems to me to be working with wei-level assessment of the > body-- it is a tendono-muscular 'communication' system, or so it would > seem. If something " clears " on the wei level, and one no longer > exhibits these wei-level " allergic " responses, does that mean that it > is resolved? Or have the divergent channels (BL/KI in particular) > compensated for the induced neutralization of the sinew channels? > > What I have been thinking is that to answer these questions, at the > very least we need people who are trained in taking divergent channel > pulses to be present before and after some NAET treatments, in order > to detect relevant pulse changes. I'd really love to have some good > clinical data on this-- so far it's the only theory I can come up > with for how the heck NAET actually works, and it's not a pretty > thought, if it turns out to be true. > > Anyone else have any idea of the actual means by which NAET works, > when it does work-- or any proof/disproof of the aforementioned > Divergent channel theory? > > Thea Elijah > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 Thea, Z'ev, et. al., While I haven't been trained in NAET, I have worked with several patients who have also gone to practitioners who use that system. My impression is that it is a " desensitization " method, which I've monitored both with pulses (though not immediately before and after as you suggest -- which would be nice) and also with other symptoms. While that approach is obviously familiar to our WM colleagues, in our terminology it suppresses the expression of distress rather than resolving its source. I do believe NAET focuses very much on both the first (KI/UB) and second (Liv/GB) confluences, as it also uses front-mu points in addition to the first confluence points you mentioned. Steve On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 3:18 PM, <zrosenbe wrote: > Thea, > Interesting questions. Steve Alpern and I were discussing just this type > of question a few months back, basically whether one could suppress disease > patterns with acupuncture/moxa. The Shang Han Lun speaks in many places > about huai bing/aggravated diseases, where wrong treatment can allow a > disease evil to sink deeper into the body, for example from a tai yang wind > strike pattern to a tai yin spleen vacuity one. > > I think your analysis of the NAET protocol holds water, and would be > interested to see such a study as you propose carried out. I'd like to see > a similar analysis of so-called 'battlefield acupuncture' as well. . . > > It goes without saying, that an acupuncturist should know how to use not > only the regular channels, but the extraordinary vessels, tendinomuscular > channels, divergents and other channels/vessels as well. . > On Feb 2, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Thea Elijah wrote: > > > > > On Feb 2, 2010, at 11:51 AM, michael_pingicer wrote: > > > > > This patient is also considering Nambudripad's Allergy > > > Elimination Technique (NAET). I have no experience with it, but if > > > anyone has any experiences with it, please let me know. > > > > This is currently a matter of strong personal interest for me. > > > > Given the primary practice, in the NAET protocol, of beginning with > > stimulation of the huatuojiaji points, and using BL 10 and BL 40, this > > leads me to wonder about the role of the BL/KI divergent channels in > > the " resolution " of the allergies. It seems to me that there is a > > strong possibility that NAET may in fact drive the pathogenic process > > deeper instead of resolving the condition. Combined with the 4 Gates, > > are we just in essence telling the wei qi, the body's first line of > > defense, " Shut up and stop reacting; this is not going to change so > > suck it up! " > > > > " Resolution " of allergies is monitored and confirmed, in the NAET > > system, through muscle testing. Muscle testing (which I do not > > practice) seems to me to be working with wei-level assessment of the > > body-- it is a tendono-muscular 'communication' system, or so it would > > seem. If something " clears " on the wei level, and one no longer > > exhibits these wei-level " allergic " responses, does that mean that it > > is resolved? Or have the divergent channels (BL/KI in particular) > > compensated for the induced neutralization of the sinew channels? > > > > What I have been thinking is that to answer these questions, at the > > very least we need people who are trained in taking divergent channel > > pulses to be present before and after some NAET treatments, in order > > to detect relevant pulse changes. I'd really love to have some good > > clinical data on this-- so far it's the only theory I can come up > > with for how the heck NAET actually works, and it's not a pretty > > thought, if it turns out to be true. > > > > Anyone else have any idea of the actual means by which NAET works, > > when it does work-- or any proof/disproof of the aforementioned > > Divergent channel theory? > > > > Thea Elijah > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2010 Report Share Posted February 2, 2010 On Feb 2, 2010, at 6:18 PM, wrote: > Thea, > Interesting questions. Steve Alpern and I were discussing just > this type of question a few months back, basically whether one could > suppress disease patterns with acupuncture/moxa. The Shang Han Lun > speaks in many places about huai bing/aggravated diseases, where > wrong treatment can allow a disease evil to sink deeper into the > body, for example from a tai yang wind strike pattern to a tai yin > spleen vacuity one. Was this discussion on the CHA list? I would be interested to review it. Certainly it is an important treatment consideration, for better or worse, with acupuncture or with herbs-- at times driving an illness into latency via the divergent channels is a strategy designed to make the practitioner look good with a " quick fix " which the client will pay for later, not recognizing where that arthritis came from. Clearly this is corrupt practice, or sloppy and ignorant at best. But it is also a powerful treatment choice when the illness is strong and the client is weak, and the battle cannot be won at the present time given the client's lack of resources. Using the divergent channels in cancer treatment for those who are frail comes to mind as a good example of driving the illness deeper as a very sound practice-- provided of course one then makes use of the latency period to strengthen the client to " fight to win " when conditions improve. I am currently quite fascinated with NAET-- it is a minor obsession at the moment-- and so these considerations are much on my mind. Of course it may turn out that NAET's efficacy (in the cases where it is efficacious, because there are also many in which it is not) had nothing to do with suppression or the divergent channels. I would like for that to be true. At the moment it all seems rather wild and woolly and I am not making much sense of it. Its methods clearly derive from Chinese medicine, but its explanations and terminology surely do not! I find it hard to understand, and the inconsistency of the practices involved only makes this more difficult. Also, while I can theoretically accept muscle testing (a mainstay of NAET) as a valid means of assessing immediate response via the sinew channels, somehow it still bothers me-- I think about a comment from which I've been turning over in my mind since he asked it: > Otherwise, your bio-field could be influencing the other Qi-gong > practitioners based on your own subjective interpretation of what > the herb > should be doing. ... if you feel like Shu di is a heavy, sticky, > dark root > and has this type of energy, metaphorically like an abyss, your bio- > field > could weigh down the rest of the circle. That doesn't necessarily > mean that > the root has that intrinsic character, but it does prove that humans > influence each other through our moods. > What I want to know is, why and how would my field be influencing their field more than their field is influencing my field? This notion of ...energetic dominance, I suppose you could call it... is a fascinating line of inquiry. Would my bio-field still be influencing the fields of my students ten years after they graduate? And influencing the efficacy of the herbal treatments in their practices....? Gee, how powerful am I? Something along these lines describes my difficulty with accepting the validity of muscle testing. I imagine that it is very easy to unduly influence these readings. It must require tremendous rigor -- and of an unspecified sort-- on the part of the practitioner not to be influencing them. I keep coming back to feeling that the whole question of influence in these matters is so vast and unexplored that I cannot feel confident about it. > I think your analysis of the NAET protocol holds water, and would > be interested to see such a study as you propose carried out. I'd > like to see a similar analysis of so-called 'battlefield > acupuncture' as well. . . I hear you. I hasten to add that right now I am actively in pursuit of understanding, and not at all convinced of anything-- maybe NAET will turn out to be a brilliant innovation currently practiced by people who have some very poor ways of explaining what they do. We need actual clinicians taking pulses and comparing notes. I'd love to hear from anyone who has opportunities to test this out-- and I'll let you know if I learn anything more. Thea Elijah > > It goes without saying, that an acupuncturist should know how to > use not only the regular channels, but the extraordinary vessels, > tendinomuscular channels, divergents and other channels/vessels as > well. . > On Feb 2, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Thea Elijah wrote: > >> >> On Feb 2, 2010, at 11:51 AM, michael_pingicer wrote: >> >>> This patient is also considering Nambudripad's Allergy >>> Elimination Technique (NAET). I have no experience with it, but if >>> anyone has any experiences with it, please let me know. >> >> This is currently a matter of strong personal interest for me. >> >> Given the primary practice, in the NAET protocol, of beginning with >> stimulation of the huatuojiaji points, and using BL 10 and BL 40, >> this >> leads me to wonder about the role of the BL/KI divergent channels in >> the " resolution " of the allergies. It seems to me that there is a >> strong possibility that NAET may in fact drive the pathogenic process >> deeper instead of resolving the condition. Combined with the 4 Gates, >> are we just in essence telling the wei qi, the body's first line of >> defense, " Shut up and stop reacting; this is not going to change so >> suck it up! " >> >> " Resolution " of allergies is monitored and confirmed, in the NAET >> system, through muscle testing. Muscle testing (which I do not >> practice) seems to me to be working with wei-level assessment of the >> body-- it is a tendono-muscular 'communication' system, or so it >> would >> seem. If something " clears " on the wei level, and one no longer >> exhibits these wei-level " allergic " responses, does that mean that it >> is resolved? Or have the divergent channels (BL/KI in particular) >> compensated for the induced neutralization of the sinew channels? >> >> What I have been thinking is that to answer these questions, at the >> very least we need people who are trained in taking divergent channel >> pulses to be present before and after some NAET treatments, in order >> to detect relevant pulse changes. I'd really love to have some good >> clinical data on this-- so far it's the only theory I can come up >> with for how the heck NAET actually works, and it's not a pretty >> thought, if it turns out to be true. >> >> Anyone else have any idea of the actual means by which NAET works, >> when it does work-- or any proof/disproof of the aforementioned >> Divergent channel theory? >> >> Thea Elijah >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Thea, > when i posed the question, it was in response to your story of your Qi gong group co-experiencing the character of Shu di. As a teacher, all attention goes to the point of center, which can either energize you or deplete you. You can influence someone's world-view, which carries on in the way they live their lives and treat their patients. If my friends believe in the same thing as i do, we reinforce our conditioning. If I treat 1000 patients thinking that Shu di has a certain character, that will concrete my thinking so much that I'll never give up the teaching that my teacher sowed 10 years ago. The seed will turn into a tree that can't be cut down. So, yes. You have that much power and that much responsibility. That's why some people need the classics, some people need research studies, but everyone needs something to believe in. Muscle testing requires faith from the patient and integrity from the tester. This makes it a little bit harder to pull off on a consistent basis. If checking the pulse and the channels gives us more consistent and authentic information, why not use our traditional diagnostic measures? I tried muscle testing for a while, but found out that I got much better results from using classical methods. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Steve- I appreciate your input (my post was written before your appeared) and would love to hear more if you wish to share it, re: On Feb 2, 2010, at 7:43 PM, Steven Alpern wrote: > My impression is > that it is a " desensitization " method, which I've monitored both > with pulses > (though not immediately before and after as you suggest -- which > would be > nice) and also with other symptoms. > Any more specifics as to how you formed your impression, and what you have noticed via pulses and other symptoms, would be a welcome contribution to this informal study... I would also like to ask your permission to share these thoughts and impressions with other practitioners not on this list serve, as part of an effort to engage awareness on the topic so as to bring more practitioners into the informal study. Simply put, I'd like to find ways to make it as easy as possible for others to start evaluating NAET, and the first conversation must be, " What is relevant data to observe? " Otherwise, the observing practitioner's observations tend to be confined to whether or not the allergies went away. Thea Elijah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 John, We must be having a misunderstanding! I have always considered clinical evidence to be the cornerstone of my assessment of the validity of an assertion about the nature of an herb-- or an acupuncture protocol-- or a principle. It seems to me that below you are saying that there may in fact be no such thing as independent clinical evidence. Let me ask very clearly here-- you are saying that what I tell my students about shu di will cause shu di to behave in the way that I say it will, even ten years later? Or that it will cause them to perceive only what I have said about it? I have not experienced students-- or the human race as a whole!-- as being so blindly unquestioning. Are you telling me that your own clinical experience is no more than a tree planted by your teachers, and that if something happened in your treatment room that was other than what a teacher told you ten years ago, you would not see it? That is a bleak view of human consciousness, and of our profession's integrity as observers of life. I do not think that I, or any teacher, has that much power over other people's independent powers of perception. If an idea in my mind about shu di, unvoiced, could cause a whole qi gong class to have an embodied experience of deep-dark-wet, then the implications for the whole field of clinical research are, to say the least, staggering, and frankly border on the preposterous. That is why I am going to assume that I am misunderstanding you, and hope that we can come together for a more profitable discussion of power and responsibility in the realm of energetic dominance. Perhaps for starters we can agree that this might be why it is important that teachers not be fundamentalist demagogues, presenting knowledge as though it were a bordered and finite truth-- but instead must encourage questioning and doubt, and especially nourish in students their own active engagement in the independent sensory and clinical verification of everything that they learn. (I have one of those old buttons that says " Question Authority. " I love to wear it when I teach. Wouldn't it be fun to make that mandatory attire for our profession?) Thea Elijah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Thea, You're welcome to share my thoughts with others -- please acknowledge my work, and direct them to my website <http://www.ccmforhealing.com/> for further reading and discussion. While I haven't specifically written about NAET in the past, I have several essays archived on the topic of displacing pathogenic factors into (temporary) dormancy, which is central to the question you posed. My website is still fairly new, and I've been a bit swamped lately with other projects including preparations for my seminar series on the channel systems. (I also have a long essay due for consideration of publication in a couple weeks -- I'll announce if/when it will come out.) Now that the seminars are starting -- this weekend at the first venue in San Diego, the amount and variety of material on the site should increase dramatically. I believe that once one has a clear understanding of dormancy, which is itself a fairly considerable endeavor, then the specific issue about NAET can be addressed much more easily. Before I address the specifics of NAET or even the channel divergences, I want to note that enhancing dormancy is not necessarily a " bad " choice. Indeed, creating dormancy is one of the embodied spirit's intrinsic capabilities to sustain life. Relative to treatment of allergies (and many other symptoms or diseases), I believe such questions are best engaged individually. While I definitely have my bias as a practitioner, individuals face a variety of challenges in life and their choices of how to pursue treatment are often complex. I agree that CM offers us the opportunity to gain a " bird's eye " vantage point for observing the nature of life and the challenges of various symptoms and diseases. While you obviously have some back round in the channel divergence -- from how you've posed the question, understanding and learning to evaluate them clearly requires a lot of study, clinical work, and contemplation. The entire third weekend of my series, including 45 pages of notes/handouts, is devoted to the channel divergences. I've developed an entire page of " early warning signs " of incipient accumulations in them. I consider them the crowning jewel (and most substantial challenge) of the channel systems. After I return from SD, I may post that list. Of course, in addition to S/S, there are also the pulses. As you may know, for many years Jeffrey Yuen eschewed teaching seminars specifically on pulse reading, so I was left to my own devices to discern how to evaluate my patients with the intriguing idea I was learning from him. One of the key things I learned from taking an intro series on the Shen-Hammer pulse-reading about a dozen years ago is that how one reads and interprets pulses is intimately and inexorably inter-connected with how one thinks about physiology. While I respect those teachings very much (and recommend them highly for TCM-oriented practitioners), they don't represent how I think, so I did not pursue them. I needed to develop a way to clarify the criteria of my conceptual framework, so about a dozen ago started experimenting with a " pulse feed-back, " which I've learned is somewhat similar to a practice also taught by Japanese meridian-style teachers, though I seem to use it slightly differently. One of my main motivations for developing that pulse reading approach was to help me evaluate the channel divergences, though I've now adapted it for all the channel systems, and teach it as a core part of the practical workshops of my series. He finally taught a series of seminars on the pulse a 2-3 years ago, and I'm currently involved in integrating that material into my practice -- easier said than done, though I still think my " feed-back pulse " method is a good start -- rather like training wheels when learning to ride a bike. In the end, I still use the pulse together with the rest of what occurs with my patients to discern their energetics -- I openly enroll them in paying attention to sometimes subtle symptoms or patterns of symptoms to help me make differentiations. All this said concerning my perception of the challenges of your " informal discussion " to evaluate NAET, there are a few things I can say. In essence the question is whether a specific patient's decrease in symptoms occurs because their wei qi is freed up or it is just less expressive -- in both physiology and its reactions to stagnations. There are lots of ways that may express itself individually, so there are no uniform ways of clearly discerning this differentiation. One of my examples is a 60 year old female patient who struggles with both relatively severe allergies that progress to asthma and constipation that dates from early childhood. As an adult (before I saw her), she had learned to manage her bowel movements, mostly with a combination of self-administered abdominal massage (she's an excellent body worker) and a collection of supplements that she used carefully in a hierarchical list that impressed me as remarkably accurate to her needs and prioritizing ones that drained less qi. Clearly her protocol was the result of considerable personal empirical work. All in all, I considered hers a very functional way to manage a difficult chronic symptom. NAET treatments somewhat helped some of her allergy symptoms, though they also seemed to exacerbate internal heat (such as painful gums -- which have also been post-menopausal) and challenge her constipation (which was also partially due to heat in yangming). I've used several treatment strategies with this patient; I believe they have each played an important role. Often (though certainly not always) her acupuncture treatments have been inspired by channel divergences. Yet, this IS an herb list, so I'll briefly comment on that part of her therapy, rather than acupuncture. She did very well with a somewhat modified " basic Waike " strategy that focused on strengthening her lungs, while also releasing/expelling perverse wind to the exterior. All those symptoms improved together, including often having regular bowel movements without taking any supplements. On those occasions when she still has sluggish bowels, she generally has the other symptoms. After several months of taking formulas designed according to that strategy, her lungs seemed to be both profusing and descending well (as best I could tell from her pulses) and she rarely has very mild twinges of wheezing, though none of the other symptoms was completely alleviated. At that same time, we also stopped seeing regular improvement in her symptoms, which honestly helped me feel comfortable with my evaluation of her lung function. During the past few months, I've focused on cold/damp in the small intestine (is that even a TCM syndrome?) in part due to heart fire not descending to the SI -- an interesting formulating challenge. Her formulas recently have included xiebai, roudoukou, wuyao, and shanyao, without overwhelmingly cold herbs though they've also included some like gualouren to " remind " her embodied spirit of the previous strategy of disentangling the lung qi and aid its descending function and zhishi and qinjiao that break up qi stagnation in the intestines, and mutong (which I'm very pleased has been available for a couple years without aristocholic acid for those that might not know that) to descend heart fire to the small intestine. Her internal heat signs specifically have improved, as have all the others, though we also learned that simply substituting zhike for zhishi (because of my inability to procure tested zhishi several weeks ago -- I use Andy Ellis' Spring Wind herbs) didn't work nearly as well. There's always more to say, but I have a very full day before going to SD this weekend. Steve > > Steve- > I appreciate your input (my post was written before your appeared) and > would love to hear more if you wish to share it, re: > > > On Feb 2, 2010, at 7:43 PM, Steven Alpern wrote: > > My impression is > > that it is a " desensitization " method, which I've monitored both > > with pulses > > (though not immediately before and after as you suggest -- which > > would be > > nice) and also with other symptoms. > > > Any more specifics as to how you formed your impression, and what you > have noticed via pulses and other symptoms, would be a welcome > contribution to this informal study... I would also like to ask your > permission to share these thoughts and impressions with other > practitioners not on this list serve, as part of an effort to engage > awareness on the topic so as to bring more practitioners into the > informal study. Simply put, I'd like to find ways to make it as easy > as possible for others to start evaluating NAET, and the first > conversation must be, " What is relevant data to observe? " Otherwise, > the observing practitioner's observations tend to be confined to > whether or not the allergies went away. > > Thea Elijah > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Thea, NAET was developed by a chiropractor, and some of that influence is visible in the format and approach. We must remember that it is a technique, not a medical system. In my Shang Han Lun class that I teach at PCOM, we talk a lot about huai bing/aggravated diseases or bian zheng/transmuted patterns, in order to not that while drug suppression is the most powerful way to imbed a disease deep inside the body in the yin channels, it can also be done by 'natural' methods, such as sweating, vomiting, and precipitation, which includes enemas, saunas, or vitamin C therapy, to give such a few examples. Any treatment given in the wrong time or wrong dose can lead to a transmuted pattern, a more serious, deep, complex expression of disease. This principle also explains how seemingly unconnected disorders (such as head colds and diarrhea, or skin eruptions and asthma) are part of the same disease process, not unrelated phenomena. While little time has been given to potential huai bing in modern discussions by acupuncture, this is also discussed in the Shang Han Lun. For example, using a fire method (moxa, fire needle) to cause sweating in a tai yang disease with underlying heart vacuity can weaken the heart yang according to the text, for which a modification of gui zhi tang is given. As you point out, sometimes a serious decision needs to be made. Symptom suppression may be all that is possible, and it may be necessary when one's back is against the wall. However, the acupuncturist needs to be fully knowledgeable of all treatment options, and as Steve Alpern points out, most acupuncturists are not fully trained in the channel system and all of its pathways. This concerns me with approaches such as NAET and 'battlefield acupuncture', and in those practitioners who are only interested in symptom relief. The conversation Steve and I had, by the way, was an in-person verbal one, not on CHA. .... On Feb 2, 2010, at 6:09 PM, Thea Elijah wrote: > > On Feb 2, 2010, at 6:18 PM, wrote: > > > Thea, > > Interesting questions. Steve Alpern and I were discussing just > > this type of question a few months back, basically whether one could > > suppress disease patterns with acupuncture/moxa. The Shang Han Lun > > speaks in many places about huai bing/aggravated diseases, where > > wrong treatment can allow a disease evil to sink deeper into the > > body, for example from a tai yang wind strike pattern to a tai yin > > spleen vacuity one. > > Was this discussion on the CHA list? I would be interested to review > it. > > Certainly it is an important treatment consideration, for better or > worse, with acupuncture or with herbs-- at times driving an illness > into latency via the divergent channels is a strategy designed to make > the practitioner look good with a " quick fix " which the client will > pay for later, not recognizing where that arthritis came from. > Clearly this is corrupt practice, or sloppy and ignorant at best. But > it is also a powerful treatment choice when the illness is strong and > the client is weak, and the battle cannot be won at the present time > given the client's lack of resources. Using the divergent channels in > cancer treatment for those who are frail comes to mind as a good > example of driving the illness deeper as a very sound practice-- > provided of course one then makes use of the latency period to > strengthen the client to " fight to win " when conditions improve. > > I am currently quite fascinated with NAET-- it is a minor obsession at > the moment-- and so these considerations are much on my mind. Of > course it may turn out that NAET's efficacy (in the cases where it is > efficacious, because there are also many in which it is not) had > nothing to do with suppression or the divergent channels. I would > like for that to be true. At the moment it all seems rather wild and > woolly and I am not making much sense of it. Its methods clearly > derive from Chinese medicine, but its explanations and terminology > surely do not! I find it hard to understand, and the inconsistency of > the practices involved only makes this more difficult. > > Also, while I can theoretically accept muscle testing (a mainstay of > NAET) as a valid means of assessing immediate response via the sinew > channels, somehow it still bothers me-- I think about a comment from > which I've been turning over in my mind since he asked it: > > > Otherwise, your bio-field could be influencing the other Qi-gong > > practitioners based on your own subjective interpretation of what > > the herb > > should be doing. ... if you feel like Shu di is a heavy, sticky, > > dark root > > and has this type of energy, metaphorically like an abyss, your bio- > > field > > could weigh down the rest of the circle. That doesn't necessarily > > mean that > > the root has that intrinsic character, but it does prove that humans > > influence each other through our moods. > > > What I want to know is, why and how would my field be influencing > their field more than their field is influencing my field? > > This notion of ...energetic dominance, I suppose you could call > it... is a fascinating line of inquiry. Would my bio-field still be > influencing the fields of my students ten years after they graduate? > And influencing the efficacy of the herbal treatments in their > practices....? Gee, how powerful am I? > > Something along these lines describes my difficulty with accepting the > validity of muscle testing. I imagine that it is very easy to unduly > influence these readings. It must require tremendous rigor -- and of > an unspecified sort-- on the part of the practitioner not to be > influencing them. I keep coming back to feeling that the whole > question of influence in these matters is so vast and unexplored that > I cannot feel confident about it. > > Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine Pacific College of Oriental Medicine San Diego, Ca. 92122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Z'ev, Excellent point, and examples from Shang Han Lun. I believe it's important for TCM practitioner to understand that SHL is not a description of six stages of disease. Rather, it is a wonderfully insightful elucidation of the transmutation and progression of disease as it accumulates and the embodied spirit adjusts, resists its advances, and finds ways to survive in light of its accumulations. While this basic idea is rooted in Neijing, SHL is such an important text (though not a " jing, " as came up in the Nanjing discussion recently) precisely because this " lun " (treatise) develops its particular doctrine for understanding and differentiating that process so well -- complete with therapeutic strategies for such a wide variety of possible progressions of disease. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Thea, I have a " question authority " button as well, which I think is healthy, especially for what we do. And the farther out we go into uncharted territory, as you are doing, requires more responsibility. I applaud you for your courage and maybe the mis-understanding is for me to understand how you receive the " psycho-spiritual personality of the herbs " information which you teach in your seminars. Please elaborate on your methods, so that there is no mis-understanding on my part. I honor creativity in interpretation and in treatment methods. Maybe hearing your path can help illuminate ours. K On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 6:01 AM, Thea Elijah <parkinglotwrote: > > > John, > > We must be having a misunderstanding! I have always considered > clinical evidence to be the cornerstone of my assessment of the > validity of an assertion about the nature of an herb-- or an > acupuncture protocol-- or a principle. It seems to me that below you > are saying that there may in fact be no such thing as independent > clinical evidence. > > Let me ask very clearly here-- you are saying that what I tell my > students about shu di will cause shu di to behave in the way that I > say it will, even ten years later? Or that it will cause them to > perceive only what I have said about it? > > I have not experienced students-- or the human race as a whole!-- as > being so blindly unquestioning. Are you telling me that your own > clinical experience is no more than a tree planted by your teachers, > and that if something happened in your treatment room that was other > than what a teacher told you ten years ago, you would not see it? > > That is a bleak view of human consciousness, and of our profession's > integrity as observers of life. I do not think that I, or any > teacher, has that much power over other people's independent powers of > perception. > > If an idea in my mind about shu di, unvoiced, could cause a whole qi > gong class to have an embodied experience of deep-dark-wet, then the > implications for the whole field of clinical research are, to say the > least, staggering, and frankly border on the preposterous. > > That is why I am going to assume that I am misunderstanding you, and > hope that we can come together for a more profitable discussion of > power and responsibility in the realm of energetic dominance. Perhaps > for starters we can agree that this might be why it is important that > teachers not be fundamentalist demagogues, presenting knowledge as > though it were a bordered and finite truth-- but instead must > encourage questioning and doubt, and especially nourish in students > their own active engagement in the independent sensory and clinical > verification of everything that they learn. > > (I have one of those old buttons that says " Question Authority. " I > love to wear it when I teach. Wouldn't it be fun to make that > mandatory attire for our profession?) > > Thea Elijah > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Uh, I pressed send on that before I meant to. You might as well reply if you feel like it, but know that I'd have posted something a bit milder if I'd had a chance to cull the essence of my intent. This version was more dramatic than I would have wished to send. OK, we'll live-- Elijah On Feb 3, 2010, at 9:01 AM, Thea Elijah wrote: > John, > > We must be having a misunderstanding! I have always considered > clinical evidence to be the cornerstone of my assessment of the > validity of an assertion about the nature of an herb-- or an > acupuncture protocol-- or a principle. It seems to me that below you > are saying that there may in fact be no such thing as independent > clinical evidence. > > Let me ask very clearly here-- you are saying that what I tell my > students about shu di will cause shu di to behave in the way that I > say it will, even ten years later? Or that it will cause them to > perceive only what I have said about it? > > I have not experienced students-- or the human race as a whole!-- as > being so blindly unquestioning. Are you telling me that your own > clinical experience is no more than a tree planted by your teachers, > and that if something happened in your treatment room that was other > than what a teacher told you ten years ago, you would not see it? > > That is a bleak view of human consciousness, and of our profession's > integrity as observers of life. I do not think that I, or any > teacher, has that much power over other people's independent powers of > perception. > > If an idea in my mind about shu di, unvoiced, could cause a whole qi > gong class to have an embodied experience of deep-dark-wet, then the > implications for the whole field of clinical research are, to say the > least, staggering, and frankly border on the preposterous. > > That is why I am going to assume that I am misunderstanding you, and > hope that we can come together for a more profitable discussion of > power and responsibility in the realm of energetic dominance. Perhaps > for starters we can agree that this might be why it is important that > teachers not be fundamentalist demagogues, presenting knowledge as > though it were a bordered and finite truth-- but instead must > encourage questioning and doubt, and especially nourish in students > their own active engagement in the independent sensory and clinical > verification of everything that they learn. > > (I have one of those old buttons that says " Question Authority. " I > love to wear it when I teach. Wouldn't it be fun to make that > mandatory attire for our profession?) > > Thea Elijah > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2010 Report Share Posted February 3, 2010 Steve, Thank you so much for taking the time to make this rich reply. On Feb 3, 2010, at 10:41 AM, Steven Alpern wrote: > > While you obviously have some back round in the channel divergence > -- from > how you've posed the question, understanding and learning to > evaluate them > clearly requires a lot of study, clinical work, and contemplation. The > entire third weekend of my series, including 45 pages of notes/ > handouts, is > devoted to the channel divergences. I've developed an entire page of > " early > warning signs " of incipient accumulations in them. I consider them the > crowning jewel (and most substantial challenge) of the channel > systems. > After I return from SD, I may post that list. > I look forward with hope to your posting of this document, and in the meanwhile I will chew my way through the others on your site. Much thanks. Thea Elijah > > Of course, in addition to S/S, there are also the pulses. As you may > know, > for many years Jeffrey Yuen eschewed teaching seminars specifically > on pulse > reading, so I was left to my own devices to discern how to evaluate my > patients with the intriguing idea I was learning from him. One of > the key > things I learned from taking an intro series on the Shen-Hammer > pulse-reading about a dozen years ago is that how one reads and > interprets > pulses is intimately and inexorably inter-connected with how one > thinks > about physiology. While I respect those teachings very much (and > recommend > them highly for TCM-oriented practitioners), they don't represent > how I > think, so I did not pursue them. > > I needed to develop a way to clarify the criteria of my conceptual > framework, so about a dozen ago started experimenting with a " pulse > feed-back, " which I've learned is somewhat similar to a practice > also taught > by Japanese meridian-style teachers, though I seem to use it slightly > differently. One of my main motivations for developing that pulse > reading > approach was to help me evaluate the channel divergences, though > I've now > adapted it for all the channel systems, and teach it as a core part > of the > practical workshops of my series. He finally taught a series of > seminars on > the pulse a 2-3 years ago, and I'm currently involved in integrating > that > material into my practice -- easier said than done, though I still > think my > " feed-back pulse " method is a good start -- rather like training > wheels when > learning to ride a bike. In the end, I still use the pulse together > with the > rest of what occurs with my patients to discern their energetics -- > I openly > enroll them in paying attention to sometimes subtle symptoms or > patterns of > symptoms to help me make differentiations. > > All this said concerning my perception of the challenges of your > " informal > discussion " to evaluate NAET, there are a few things I can say. In > essence > the question is whether a specific patient's decrease in symptoms > occurs > because their wei qi is freed up or it is just less expressive -- in > both > physiology and its reactions to stagnations. There are lots of ways > that may > express itself individually, so there are no uniform ways of clearly > discerning this differentiation. > > One of my examples is a 60 year old female patient who struggles > with both > relatively severe allergies that progress to asthma and constipation > that > dates from early childhood. As an adult (before I saw her), she had > learned > to manage her bowel movements, mostly with a combination of > self-administered abdominal massage (she's an excellent body worker) > and a > collection of supplements that she used carefully in a hierarchical > list > that impressed me as remarkably accurate to her needs and > prioritizing ones > that drained less qi. Clearly her protocol was the result of > considerable > personal empirical work. All in all, I considered hers a very > functional way > to manage a difficult chronic symptom. NAET treatments somewhat > helped some > of her allergy symptoms, though they also seemed to exacerbate > internal > heat (such as painful gums -- which have also been post-menopausal) > and > challenge her constipation (which was also partially due to heat in > yangming). > > I've used several treatment strategies with this patient; I believe > they > have each played an important role. Often (though certainly not > always) her > acupuncture treatments have been inspired by channel divergences. > Yet, this > IS an herb list, so I'll briefly comment on that part of her > therapy, rather > than acupuncture. She did very well with a somewhat modified " basic > Waike " > strategy that focused on strengthening her lungs, while also > releasing/expelling perverse wind to the exterior. All those symptoms > improved together, including often having regular bowel movements > without > taking any supplements. On those occasions when she still has sluggish > bowels, she generally has the other symptoms. After several months > of taking > formulas designed according to that strategy, her lungs seemed to be > both > profusing and descending well (as best I could tell from her pulses) > and she > rarely has very mild twinges of wheezing, though none of the other > symptoms > was completely alleviated. At that same time, we also stopped seeing > regular > improvement in her symptoms, which honestly helped me feel > comfortable with > my evaluation of her lung function. > > During the past few months, I've focused on cold/damp in the small > intestine > (is that even a TCM syndrome?) in part due to heart fire not > descending to > the SI -- an interesting formulating challenge. Her formulas > recently have > included xiebai, roudoukou, wuyao, and shanyao, without > overwhelmingly cold > herbs though they've also included some like gualouren to " remind " her > embodied spirit of the previous strategy of disentangling the lung > qi and > aid its descending function and zhishi and qinjiao that break up qi > stagnation in the intestines, and mutong (which I'm very pleased has > been > available for a couple years without aristocholic acid for those > that might > not know that) to descend heart fire to the small intestine. Her > internal > heat signs specifically have improved, as have all the others, > though we > also learned that simply substituting zhike for zhishi (because of my > inability to procure tested zhishi several weeks ago -- I use Andy > Ellis' > Spring Wind herbs) didn't work nearly as well. > > There's always more to say, but I have a very full day before going > to SD > this weekend. > > Steve > > > > > Steve- > > I appreciate your input (my post was written before your appeared) > and > > would love to hear more if you wish to share it, re: > > > > > > On Feb 2, 2010, at 7:43 PM, Steven Alpern wrote: > > > My impression is > > > that it is a " desensitization " method, which I've monitored both > > > with pulses > > > (though not immediately before and after as you suggest -- which > > > would be > > > nice) and also with other symptoms. > > > > > Any more specifics as to how you formed your impression, and what > you > > have noticed via pulses and other symptoms, would be a welcome > > contribution to this informal study... I would also like to ask your > > permission to share these thoughts and impressions with other > > practitioners not on this list serve, as part of an effort to engage > > awareness on the topic so as to bring more practitioners into the > > informal study. Simply put, I'd like to find ways to make it as easy > > as possible for others to start evaluating NAET, and the first > > conversation must be, " What is relevant data to observe? " Otherwise, > > the observing practitioner's observations tend to be confined to > > whether or not the allergies went away. > > > > Thea Elijah > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 2010 Report Share Posted February 4, 2010 John, Thank you for your interest in my work, but that is not the misunderstanding of which I speak. I am asking you either to substantiate or amend your statement that my unspoken idea about of the nature of shu di was able to energetically dominate a qi gong teacher and his class via my bio-field. To me, that is 1) an outrageous statement left unsubstantiated, and 2) it cuts to shreds anything I could ever say about the clinical validity of my work, because you (and others) could say, " Oh those are not real clinical results-- even ten years later, you are still influencing the bio-field of your students, and they only see what you told them. " Can you see why I would not be interested in being drawn into a discussion on these terms? I would like to be assured that my work will be judged fairly, by people who share my sense of the importance of clinical validation. Collaboration with, and corroboration by, other practitioners has always a mainstay of my work. It is the cornerstone of my sense of safety and integrity in practice or teaching. Please clear up for me this issue of how the deuce my bio-field could be influencing my student's treatments ten years later, and what that says about independent clinical results as a means of determining validity of a treatment method. thanks-- Thea Elijah On Feb 3, 2010, at 3:51 PM, wrote: > Thea, > I have a " question authority " button as well, which I think is > healthy, > especially for what we do. > And the farther out we go into uncharted territory, as you are doing, > requires more responsibility. > I applaud you for your courage and maybe the mis-understanding is > for me to understand how you receive the " psycho-spiritual > personality of > the herbs " > information which you teach in your seminars. > Please elaborate on your methods, so that there is no mis- > understanding on > my part. > I honor creativity in interpretation and in treatment methods. > Maybe hearing your path can help illuminate ours. > > K > > On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 6:01 AM, Thea Elijah <parkinglot > >wrote: > > > > > > > John, > > > > We must be having a misunderstanding! I have always considered > > clinical evidence to be the cornerstone of my assessment of the > > validity of an assertion about the nature of an herb-- or an > > acupuncture protocol-- or a principle. It seems to me that below you > > are saying that there may in fact be no such thing as independent > > clinical evidence. > > > > Let me ask very clearly here-- you are saying that what I tell my > > students about shu di will cause shu di to behave in the way that I > > say it will, even ten years later? Or that it will cause them to > > perceive only what I have said about it? > > > > I have not experienced students-- or the human race as a whole!-- as > > being so blindly unquestioning. Are you telling me that your own > > clinical experience is no more than a tree planted by your teachers, > > and that if something happened in your treatment room that was other > > than what a teacher told you ten years ago, you would not see it? > > > > That is a bleak view of human consciousness, and of our profession's > > integrity as observers of life. I do not think that I, or any > > teacher, has that much power over other people's independent > powers of > > perception. > > > > If an idea in my mind about shu di, unvoiced, could cause a whole qi > > gong class to have an embodied experience of deep-dark-wet, then the > > implications for the whole field of clinical research are, to say > the > > least, staggering, and frankly border on the preposterous. > > > > That is why I am going to assume that I am misunderstanding you, and > > hope that we can come together for a more profitable discussion of > > power and responsibility in the realm of energetic dominance. > Perhaps > > for starters we can agree that this might be why it is important > that > > teachers not be fundamentalist demagogues, presenting knowledge as > > though it were a bordered and finite truth-- but instead must > > encourage questioning and doubt, and especially nourish in students > > their own active engagement in the independent sensory and clinical > > verification of everything that they learn. > > > > (I have one of those old buttons that says " Question Authority. " I > > love to wear it when I teach. Wouldn't it be fun to make that > > mandatory attire for our profession?) > > > > Thea Elijah > > > > > > > > -- > > > "" > > > www.tcmreview.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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