Chronic Fatigue and possible Gluten Sensitivity

[Guest guest]

As a person who has had chronic cold symptoms until adding thyroid

medication (for a thyroid diagnosis) and who has what is termed

loosely as chronic fatigue, though to a milder degree than I have

read about, I would like to post this short article as follows from:

 

http://www.celiac.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_prod.html?

p_prodid=115 & p_catid=7 & sid=91hH9H0WsF4X5o--26102397224.4d

 

 

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (myalgic encephalomyelitis or ME, PVS, post

viral fatigue syndrome or PVFS)

 

In the Friday, February 9, 1996 edition of the Independent newspaper

(UK), there was a short article reporting research into ME (myalgic

encephalomyelitis) by doctors at the Royal Hallamshire Hospital in

Sheffield. Their research was published that same week's Lancet.

 

" Mysterious symptoms, including muscle weakness, wasting, and poor

coordination and balance may be due to an undiagnosed allergy to

wheat, barley, oats or rye, according to new research which may have

implications for some people with ME...A study of 53 patients with

these and other unexplained neurological symptoms, found that nearly

three-fifths of them had antibodies to gluten in their blood...none

of the patients in the Sheffield group had been diagnosed with celiac

disease but when samples of tissue were removed from their gut, more

than a third showed evidence of the disease or inflammation of the

middle and lower gut. "

 

In the past I was tested for gluten sensitivity, but was on a very

low carbohydrate diet at the time. So although nothing showed up on

it the test, itself, was not really valid, because you have to be

eating gluten at the time of the test for it to show gluten

antibodies.

 

I have hypothyroidism and allergies, and recently read that there

could be some connection among hypothyoid disease, autoimmune

diseases and subclinical gluten sensitivity.

 

I have omitted wheat and other glutens from my diet for about two

months now, because my allergies had worsened dramatically this year

(this was before I read the article about gluten sensitivity). I am

feeling better and less tired and my hip pain has

gone away (bone pain and osteoporosis are associated with this gluten

sensitivity), the numbness and tingling in my feet is gone, and the

stiffness and swelling of my hands is going down--all symptoms of

gluten sensitivity.

 

Perhaps not all improvement comes from leaving out glutens in my

diet. I have also stopped eating all dairy, which was hard for me as

I love cheese. My sinuses feel so much better. I am very hopeful

that this improvement will continue over time.

 

Since the list moderator has chronic fatigue I thought she would be

interested in this. For the original article with a longer list of

possible symptoms for gluten sensitivity which alerted me to this

diagnois read:

 

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/glutenceliac.htm

 

It is very exciting to have finally found a simple explanation for

apparently unrelated symptoms which has been eluding me for years. I

wish I had known about this years ago, but I guess this is what

happens in the medical field--unless one has an outright full blown

case of something, in this case the full blown version would be

celiac sprue, one sort of falls in the cracks with all these vague

indefinite symptoms which are just a subclinical gluten sensitivity

(sort of matches my subclinical hypothyroidism, also ignored for

years).

[Guest guest]

Thanks, bonmotSarah.

 

> http://www.celiac.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_prod.html?

> p_prodid=115 & p_catid=7 & sid=91hH9H0WsF4X5o--26102397224.4d

 

At various times I have had to eliminate both wheat and dairy in

order to feel better. Also, sugar.

 

> " Mysterious symptoms, including muscle weakness, wasting, and poor

> coordination and balance may be due to an undiagnosed allergy to

> wheat, barley, oats or rye,

 

Yep.

 

> I have hypothyroidism and allergies, and recently read that there

> could be some connection among hypothyoid disease, autoimmune

> diseases and subclinical gluten sensitivity.

>

> gone away (bone pain and osteoporosis are associated with this

gluten

> sensitivity), the numbness and tingling in my feet is gone, and the

> stiffness and swelling of my hands is going down--all symptoms of

> gluten sensitivity.

>

> Perhaps not all improvement comes from leaving out glutens in my

> diet. I have also stopped eating all dairy, which was hard for me

as

> I love cheese. My sinuses feel so much better. I am very hopeful

> that this improvement will continue over time.

 

Both dairy and wheat are notorious for engendering Dampness.

 

> interested in this. For the original article with a longer list of

> possible symptoms for gluten sensitivity which alerted me to this

> diagnois read:

 

> http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/glutenceliac.htm

 

There is a lot of disagreement among allergy experts as to what

constitutes an allergy. Some restrict the term " allergy " to the

classic IgE-mediated response. Others believe there are other

possible mediators like Substance P (which also plays a role in

pain). Still others recognize that allergic-like symptoms can occur

without any known possible mediator or recognized antibodies.

 

TCM accounts for all these possibilities. Dampness and one or more of

the Dampness-causing imbalances (weak Spleen, weak Kidneys, etc.) are

found in many people with allergies and allergy-like symptoms. By

allergy-like symptoms, one example is a person who develops

congestion in the lungs after eating certain foods (like dairy or

grains) even though IgE isn't elevated and no antibodies are found.

It is possible that IgE is not the mediator, that the antibodies have

not been identified, that the test has not been developed to find

them, or the test is performed at the wrong time.

 

Because TCM is a different school of medicine from Western medicine

and because it diagnoses and treats TCM imbalances, one does not have

to wait for the tests to be developed. Are the symptoms of Dampness

and of one or more of the Organ imbalances that can cause Dampness

present? If so, there are TCM treatments for these TCM imbalances,

one of which is the elimination of Dampness-engendering foods.

 

You'll run across a lot of examples of TCM being able to treat cases

in which there is no Western treatment for a Western-defined

condition but there are TCM treatments for TCM imbalances. In some

cases there will be a cure, in others the condition can at least be

controled.

 

But this is not just a one-way street. TCM also learns from Western

medicine. One thing that some in Western medicine are looking at is

the role of the intestines in allowing allergies to form. In

particular something called Leaky Gut Syndrome (but not limited to

LGS).

 

In LGS, the ling of the small intestine has become compromised so

that things which should not be making it across to the blood are and

things which the body needs are not making it across (because

facilitate-transport has been composed because of the compromised gut

lining). In the first case, bits of undigested protein is making it

across, and the body recognizes these as foreign invaders, creating

antibodies against them. At the same time, certain nutrients that the

person needs in order to be healthy are not making it across because

of that facilitated-transport thing.

 

In my own case, thyme tea helped. I also add fennel seeds to the

tea. Boil a cup of water and dump in a tablespoon of fennel seeds

and a teaspoon of thyme. Let steep for 20 minutes. Also, after being

off both wheat and dairy for some time, I was eating to start eating

them again as long as I do not eat too much of them. When I do or

when I quit taking the thyme and fennel seed tea, the symptoms start

to reappear. I now know to cut back on the dairy and wheat and to

start with the tea again.

 

> wish I had known about this years ago, but I guess this is what

 

There are a lot of things I wish I had known about years ago. Would

never have gotten as sick as I did. Probably would not gotten sick

with CFIDS at all.

 

Thanks,

Victoria

[Guest guest]

I think I am excited about learning about low level gluten

sensitivity because I have used TCM herbs and acupuncture fairly

heavily for over three years, with two different practitioners, and

the gluten sensitivity symptoms I had were not changing that much,

although my health overall improved a lot.

 

>You'll run across a lot of examples of TCM being able to treat cases

> in which there is no Western treatment for a Western-defined

> condition but there are TCM treatments for TCM imbalances.

 

Yes, I agree, and I used to see many people totally cured with TCM.

So I have much respect for this tradition. I did however also see

that with Caucasian people many of the symptoms, such as dampness

with a diagnosis of sinus or kidney yang deficiency with dampness

were not completely controlled by TCM herbs and/or acupuncture. I

really think that many people who have continuing problems may be

manifesting a form of gluten sensitivity.

 

Gluten sensitivity and celiac disease are apparently more wide spread

than realized in the past among those of European descent, so it

stands to reason that protocols in TCM may not have been developed as

of yet for these cases, since few Asians have this problem. I do

know that the practitioner where I was had to give stronger and

stronger brews of teas to those of Irish, German, and Scottish

descent. He used to joke about it, but sometimes even this approach

did not work totally.

 

>In some

> cases there will be a cure, in others the condition can at least be

> controled.

 

Yes, that is what this practitioner seemed to find. And some

patients got so disgusted with the excessively strong brews they were

getting that they would then quit his care (cannot say as I blame

them, after spending so much time and seeing very minor results for

your symptoms you start to look elsewhere for some kind of answer).

 

>Dampness and one or more of

> the Dampness-causing imbalances (weak Spleen, weak Kidneys, etc.)

are

> found in many people with allergies and allergy-like symptoms

 

Yes, that certainly describes my TCM diagnosis, and I am seeing some

dampness improve because I have, as you say, cut out some of the

dampness producing foods. Still I think feeling better goes beyond

just cutting dampness producing foods, since I think my

body truly cannot handle them beyond their ability to cause dampness,

for whatever reason. I am now having pretty good indications of this

inability to handle gluten. The other day I ate something which had

soy sauce (which may have wheat in it). The reaction in a few hours

let me know that I could not handle it now that my body had cleared

all gluten grains--the pin pricks all over my skin (symptom of gluten

sensitivity) followed by diarrhea. The next morning my hand felt

stiff. So this is why sometimes I think it is good to look beyond

just one system for answers.

 

Something I have tried for a month now, which seems to be helping me

a lot is an Indian herbal formula called Triphala. It balances what

the Indians call all the doshas (body types). My current level of

health is the result of using TCM herbs, and the more recently

thyroid medication. Still there was the perennial dampness in my

ear, which no one could seem to cure. Triphala has opened up

something in the outer surface of the ear--all sorts of small

hardened pieces seem to be working their way out. I feel so much

better in that ear now, and all thanks to Triphala. I really feel

that this formula is helping me to recover my health, opening up some

of the blocked water channels.

 

I am interested in the Leaky Gut Sydrome as well, but am wondering

now if this type of low level gluten sensitivity (in which there is

no enzyme to digest gluten or perhaps there is some enzyme but it is

not enough to handle gluten) could be behind at least some people's

problems with wheat and other gluten grains, causing in them Leaky

Gut Syndrome. Something which is perhaps not exactly an allergy. And

not totally TCM dampness.

 

Best wishes,

 

Sarah

 

-- In Chinese Traditional Medicine, " victoria_dragon " <victoria_dragon@h...>

wrote:

> Thanks, bonmotSarah.

>

> > http://www.celiac.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_prod.html?

> > p_prodid=115 & p_catid=7 & sid=91hH9H0WsF4X5o--26102397224.4d

>

> At various times I have had to eliminate both wheat and dairy in

> order to feel better. Also, sugar.

>

> > " Mysterious symptoms, including muscle weakness, wasting, and

poor

> > coordination and balance may be due to an undiagnosed allergy to

> > wheat, barley, oats or rye,

>

> Yep.

>

> > I have hypothyroidism and allergies, and recently read that there

> > could be some connection among hypothyoid disease, autoimmune

> > diseases and subclinical gluten sensitivity.

> >

> > gone away (bone pain and osteoporosis are associated with this

> gluten

> > sensitivity), the numbness and tingling in my feet is gone, and

the

> > stiffness and swelling of my hands is going down--all symptoms of

> > gluten sensitivity.

> >

> > Perhaps not all improvement comes from leaving out glutens in my

> > diet. I have also stopped eating all dairy, which was hard for

me

> as

> > I love cheese. My sinuses feel so much better. I am very

hopeful

> > that this improvement will continue over time.

>

> Both dairy and wheat are notorious for engendering Dampness.

>

> > interested in this. For the original article with a longer list

of

> > possible symptoms for gluten sensitivity which alerted me to this

> > diagnois read:

>

> > http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/glutenceliac.htm

>

> There is a lot of disagreement among allergy experts as to what

> constitutes an allergy. Some restrict the term " allergy " to the

> classic IgE-mediated response. Others believe there are other

> possible mediators like Substance P (which also plays a role in

> pain). Still others recognize that allergic-like symptoms can occur

> without any known possible mediator or recognized antibodies.

>

> TCM accounts for all these possibilities. Dampness and one or more

of

> the Dampness-causing imbalances (weak Spleen, weak Kidneys, etc.)

are

> found in many people with allergies and allergy-like symptoms. By

> allergy-like symptoms, one example is a person who develops

> congestion in the lungs after eating certain foods (like dairy or

> grains) even though IgE isn't elevated and no antibodies are

found.

> It is possible that IgE is not the mediator, that the antibodies

have

> not been identified, that the test has not been developed to find

> them, or the test is performed at the wrong time.

>

> Because TCM is a different school of medicine from Western medicine

> and because it diagnoses and treats TCM imbalances, one does not

have

> to wait for the tests to be developed. Are the symptoms of

Dampness

> and of one or more of the Organ imbalances that can cause Dampness

> present? If so, there are TCM treatments for these TCM imbalances,

> one of which is the elimination of Dampness-engendering foods.

>

> You'll run across a lot of examples of TCM being able to treat

cases

> in which there is no Western treatment for a Western-defined

> condition but there are TCM treatments for TCM imbalances. In some

> cases there will be a cure, in others the condition can at least be

> controled.

>

> But this is not just a one-way street. TCM also learns from

Western

> medicine. One thing that some in Western medicine are looking at

is

> the role of the intestines in allowing allergies to form. In

> particular something called Leaky Gut Syndrome (but not limited to

> LGS).

>

> In LGS, the ling of the small intestine has become compromised so

> that things which should not be making it across to the blood are

and

> things which the body needs are not making it across (because

> facilitate-transport has been composed because of the compromised

gut

> lining). In the first case, bits of undigested protein is making it

> across, and the body recognizes these as foreign invaders, creating

> antibodies against them. At the same time, certain nutrients that

the

> person needs in order to be healthy are not making it across

because

> of that facilitated-transport thing.

>

> In my own case, thyme tea helped. I also add fennel seeds to the

> tea. Boil a cup of water and dump in a tablespoon of fennel seeds

> and a teaspoon of thyme. Let steep for 20 minutes. Also, after

being

> off both wheat and dairy for some time, I was eating to start

eating

> them again as long as I do not eat too much of them. When I do or

> when I quit taking the thyme and fennel seed tea, the symptoms

start

> to reappear. I now know to cut back on the dairy and wheat and to

> start with the tea again.

>

> > wish I had known about this years ago, but I guess this is what

>

> There are a lot of things I wish I had known about years ago.

Would

> never have gotten as sick as I did. Probably would not gotten sick

> with CFIDS at all.

>

> Thanks,

> Victoria

[Guest guest]

> I think I am excited about learning about low level gluten

> sensitivity because I have used TCM herbs and acupuncture fairly

> heavily for over three years, with two different practitioners, and

> the gluten sensitivity symptoms I had were not changing that much,

> although my health overall improved a lot.

 

In my case I had eliminated dairy and cut way down on grains long

before I discovered TCM. That may be why I responded so well to TCM.

At one point I had eliminated grains completely too. I used to make

meat loaf with mashed up cooked beans instead of a grain. Then I got

so I could eat some grains. Eventually I got to the point where I

could handle some dairy. I wouldn't dare drink a glass of milk even

today, but I can handle some yogurt, cheese, and butter as well as

foods that are prepared with some milk. After getting to a certain

point, I discovered that the yogurt actually helps in my case. Back

in the days when I was so bothered by dairy, any dairy, including

yogurt hurt. But things change.

 

Sometimes the best course of action is to eliminate certain foods.

And this too is a TCM treatment (as well as a Western one.) That's

the only thing that will work or enable other therapies to work.

Sometimes the elimination will be permanent; other times it will be

temporary. Temporary may range from a few weeks to years.

 

Sometimes the problem with wheat is not so much the wheat but the

yeast used in bread making. The person can handle pasta. Sometimes

the person can handle bread made with water but not milk.

 

> Gluten sensitivity and celiac disease are apparently more wide

spread

> than realized in the past among those of European descent, so it

> stands to reason that protocols in TCM may not have been developed

as

> of yet for these cases, since few Asians have this problem.

 

Ethnic origin does need to be taken into account when evaluating a

client. There are many conditions that are more likely in some

groups than in others. I remember a woman with Native American

ancestory telling me about the horrible digestive system problems she

used to have and all the tests doctor gave her. Nothing worked until

some doctor took into account that she was Native American and

probably lactose intolerant. Once she eliminated lactose, she was

fine.

 

Sometimes the location needs to be taken into account too. For

example, bubonic plague still exists in Arizona. It's not that common

even in AZ, but the state does see an occasional cases. The prairie

dog population is a reservoir for bubonic plague. Occasionally

someone, particularly hunters will come down with it. The year we

lived west of Phoenix, a vetenarian died of it. His doctors

diagnosed it as flu, but it was plague. He got it when he was

hunting and skinned a rabbit. The irony is that had anyone realized

that he had bubonic plague and not the flu, he had the antibiotic

needed to cure it because he was a veternarian. In places like

Arizona healers definitely need to know the symptoms of and consider

bubonic plague.

 

Valley Fever is something else that needs to be considered in

diagnosis if the person has spent some time in the U.S. southwest

deserts, particularly around Phoenix. Valley Fever has many symptoms

very similar to CFIDS. It's caused by I believe a fungus. It has

become more common because of the population boom. All the new

construction has kicked it up from the desert floor.

 

> I do

> know that the practitioner where I was had to give stronger and

> stronger brews of teas to those of Irish, German, and Scottish

> descent. He used to joke about it, but sometimes even this

approach

> did not work totally.

 

This is surprising because I read that caucasins usually need smaller

dosages of herbs, not bigger dosages. Also, when a person does need

more, instead of upping the dosage of a particular herb, one adds

another herb from the same class to the formula. For example, if the

person is Qi Deficient and the maximum dosage of say astragalus isn't

enough, instead of upping the dosage of astragalus, one adds another

Qi tonic herb to the formula.

 

Some herbs will act different depending on the dosage.

 

> And some

> patients got so disgusted with the excessively strong brews they

were

> getting that they would then quit his care (cannot say as I blame

> them, after spending so much time and seeing very minor results for

> your symptoms you start to look elsewhere for some kind of answer).

 

Sometimes in healing, one needs to prioritize. Take logical steps.

Two of the big priorities with people with CFIDS (as well as people

with quite a few other conditions) are digestion and allergies. Get

those two under some control first or one cannot possibly do anything

about the other problems. The person is not going to be able to take

the herbs (or the prescription drugs) or eat nourishing food if the

person has multiple allergies and can't digest what one takes.

 

I remember when I still was very sick, the head of the local CFIDS

support group had all of us list our three most troubling symptoms.

Number one for me was the fatigue. Number two was the horrible

nausea. Number three was a tie between the digestive system problems

and the breathing problems. I couldn't decide which was more

troubling and debilitating, the digestive system problems (cramps,

pain, gas, etc.) or the breathing problems. As it turned out, my

instincts in listing digestion and breathing was right on target

because the digestive system problems were playing a big role in the

breathing problems.

 

I knew from experience that I couldn't do anything about the fatigue,

but I thought I could find something to help the other problems. I

gradually discovered more and more things that helped the nausea,

breathing problems, and digestive problems. As those problems eased,

the fatigue also eased. So did a lot of other things.

 

> Something I have tried for a month now, which seems to be helping

me

> a lot is an Indian herbal formula called Triphala. It balances

what

> the Indians call all the doshas (body types). My current level of

> health is the result of using TCM herbs, and the more recently

> thyroid medication.

 

BTW, PWCs (People With CFIDS) frequently have problems with what I

call accelerating allergies. Existing allergies get worse and the

person rapidly develops new allergies. I have been to the point on

more than one occasion where just about everything I ate bothered

me. So did just about every prescription drug. So did herbs. Over

the years I discovered that a small amount of thyroid replacement

hormone plus a small amount of cortisone would stop this downward

spiral. I discovered this independently over the years. A few years

ago I read about a doctor who had noted that this combination of

small amounts of thyroid and cortisone tended to stop what I

call " downward (allergy) spirals " in people with CFIDS. It doesn't

work on all PWCs, but many. And a much smaller than normal dose of

both for a much shorter period of time than the two usually are

used. In my case the two definitely were indicated. I have a

history of on-again, off-again thyroid problems dating back to

childhood. It was obvious I had allegies. The antihistamines were

not enough, so I got placed on cortisone. That's how I gradually came

to realize that the combination of the two can stop a downward

spiral. Eventually I got to the point where I reacted very badly to

antihistamines so cortisone had to be used in my case. (Only a

licensed MD or DO can provide this particular therapy.)

 

BTW, a lot of PWCs require much lower than normal dosages of a number

of drugs. I noticed that I also frequently had to use smaller than

normal dosages of things like magnesium and herbs (at least when I

first started on them).

 

> Still there was the perennial dampness in my

> ear, which no one could seem to cure. Triphala has opened up

> something in the outer surface of the ear--all sorts of small

> hardened pieces seem to be working their way out. I feel so much

> better in that ear now, and all thanks to Triphala. I really feel

> that this formula is helping me to recover my health, opening up

some

> of the blocked water channels.

 

Any time there are problems with the ears, suspect and rule in or

rule out Kidney imbalance.

 

> I am interested in the Leaky Gut Sydrome as well,

 

Do a search in the message base or on the Internet for Fratkin. He's

a doctor who wrote a very good article on it.

 

> but am wondering

> now if this type of low level gluten sensitivity (in which there is

> no enzyme to digest gluten or perhaps there is some enzyme but it

is

> not enough to handle gluten)

 

It's a snowballing situation. The enzymes are made from nutrients

the body takes in. If the person is not getting enough nutrients to

make enough enzymes, even less nutrients are available and even less

enzymes are made. It's a snowballing situation that gradually

becomes worse and worse and worse. Hence, the need for addressing

digestive system problems up front if the person is to get the help

s/he needs. If one cannot aborb the nutrients or healing substance

because of poor digestion, one cannot be helped. I've worded this in

a Western context of talking about enzymes, but the principle is the

same for TCM. If the Spleen is weak, the person is not getting

enough Qi from the foods s/he eats. The Qi simply is not available to

run other bodily processes as well as digestion.

 

BTW, in an informal poll of PWCs in which they were asked to list

what helped their digestive problems the most, the number one answer

was digestive system enzymes. They did wonders for me. It makes

sense. They helped me get more nutrients that my body needed to

repair itself and run smoothly.

 

> could be behind at least some people's

> problems with wheat and other gluten grains, causing in them Leaky

> Gut Syndrome.

 

The use of antibiotics will lead to Leaky Gut Syndrome. So will the

used of NSAIDs (Non Steroid AntiInflammatory Drugs). I was set up

for LGS by both. Aspirin is a mild NSAID. I started having severe

headaches in junior high school. I can remember sitting in class and

swallowing aspirins and Goody powders without water. I had so many

headaches so often that I didn't ask to be excused to take something

for my headaches. I learned to take the aspirin or powder without

water. Just that many aspirins over a period of years would be

enough to trigger LGS, but I compounded the problem by taking them

without water. That was some very concentrated amounts of aspirin.

 

Fratkin's article goes into detail on triggers for LGS. One thing

that stands out for me is that if the person is having digestive

system problems (and some other symptoms he mentions) and if the

person has a history of antibiotic use, suspect LGS. If the person

has had multiple courses of antibiotics, the chances for LGS rises

with each course. I had had multiple courses. I am one of a subset of

PWCs who were helped by antibiotics. Solution: Find alternatives to

the antibiotics. Hence, my use of echinacea which is an immune

system balancer. (It's NOT an immune system booster as some write,

but a balancer. It will boost immune system function when it needs

boosting but it also will tone down the immune system when toning

down is needed. This is why the herb has uses for both infections and

allergies. I've learned to save the antibiotics for cases where the

echinacea and other herbs with anti-bacterial properties do not work

or do not work well enough. Also, antibiotics work better if the

person is receiving adequate vitamins like A and C and minerals like

magnesium and zinc. All these play some very important roles in

immune response. But the person is not receiving adequate A, C, zinc,

magnesium, etc. if the digestion is messed up and food is not being

properly digested. It all fits together. Like rows of dominoes

going down.

 

Some people lack the enzymes to digest grains becaues of genetics.

Some people make a few but not enough to handle large amounts of

grain. As long as they don't eat a lot of grains, they do not run

into problems. Others may be short of enough of these enzymes because

their bodies are not getting enough nutrients to make enough enzymes.

They got this way because of fad dieting, because of poor food

choices, because of developing LGS from taking antiobiotics, because

the food they eat is overly processed, because the food is grown on

poor soil, etc.

 

Some people will need to limit grains forever. Some will be able to

return to eating them eventually (as long as they don't overdo it.

 

Thanks,

Victoria

[Guest guest]

>Gluten sensitivity and celiac disease are apparently more wide spread

>than realized in the past among those of European descent, so it

<stands to reason that protocols in TCM may not have been developed as

>of yet for these cases, since few Asians have this problem.

 

 

I also know of a few TCM practitioners who have had success with allergies

and

sensitivities by incorporating NAET (Nambudripad's Allergy Elimination

Techniques).

And, some fellow students who swear by it.

I live in " the allergy capitol of the world " , a favored test location for

allergy med

companies.

Kit

 

<http://www.naet.com/>http://www.naet.com/

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Kit.

 

Could you go into more detail about NAET? There is not enough info

on the website to have a good idea of what it is.

 

What will a visit be like? Please describe the tests. She gave the

names of the tests but did not describe what is involved in them.

 

Thanks,

Victoria

 

> I also know of a few TCM practitioners who have had success with

allergies

> and

> sensitivities by incorporating NAET (Nambudripad's Allergy

Elimination

> Techniques).

> And, some fellow students who swear by it.

> I live in " the allergy capitol of the world " , a favored test

location for

> allergy med

> companies.

> Kit

>

> <http://www.naet.com/>http://www.naet.com/

[Guest guest]

Hi Victoria,

 

My TCM px does muscle testing on me....so far, I come

up too qi xu for tx....my FMS/CFS, I s'pose.

I have to work on my qi, first....

 

But, I'll look around for more info.....

I'm off to classes for the day....so probably won't post til

late or early tomorrow.

 

Have a great day,

Kit

 

 

 

At 02:37 PM 10/28/02 +0000, you wrote:

>

> Thanks, Kit.

>

> Could you go into more detail about NAET?  There is not enough info

> on the website to have a good idea of what it is.

>

> What will a visit be like?  Please describe the tests. She gave the

> names of the tests but did not describe what is involved in them.

>

> Thanks,

> Victoria

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I am very interested in this as I have hypothyroid, endometriosis, and CFS. My aunt also has CFS and fibromyalgia. All autoimmune problems.

Do you have to elminate all carbs? I did an allergy diet with my TCM dr., but never got to the testing phase as I got very ill with a UTI and we moved on to that. I need to get back on dietary therapy, but it is so hard, especially when you are married to someone who does not want to eat that way. My friend was telling me how bad white rice is, I thought it was antiallergenic. Also, I like to eat oatmeal. I know wheat and corn are big culprits, but what about the other stuff. Also, will you ever be able to eat wheat and corn again? As you can tell I am a major carb addict and my TCM dr. said the main thing I need to do is exercise with muscle building resistance. My allergies are much better lately with very little change in my diet. Just curious...

 

Thanks!

baidanwu34 <bonmotSarah wrote:

As a person who has had chronic cold symptoms until adding thyroid medication (for a thyroid diagnosis) and who has what is termed loosely as chronic fatigue, though to a milder degree than I have read about, I would like to post this short article as follows from:http://www.celiac.com/cgi-bin/webc.cgi/st_prod.html?p_prodid=115 & p_catid=7 & sid=91hH9H0WsF4X5o--26102397224.4dChronic Fatigue Syndrome (myalgic encephalomyelitis or ME, PVS, post viral fatigue syndrome or PVFS) In the Friday, February 9, 1996 edition of the Independent newspaper (UK), there was a short article reporting research into ME (myalgic encephalomyelitis) by doctors at the Royal Hallamshire Hospital in Sheffield. Their research was published that same week's Lancet."Mysterious symptoms, including muscle weakness, wasting, and poor coordination and balance may be due to an undiagnosed allergy to wheat, barley, oats or rye, according to new research which may have implications for some people with ME...A study of 53 patients with these and other unexplained neurological symptoms, found that nearly three-fifths of them had antibodies to gluten in their blood...none of the patients in the Sheffield group had been diagnosed with celiac disease but when samples of tissue were removed from their gut, more than a third showed evidence of the disease or inflammation of the middle and lower gut." In the past I was tested for gluten sensitivity, but was on a very low carbohydrate diet at the time. So although nothing showed up on it the test, itself, was not really valid, because you have to be eating gluten at the time of the test for it to show gluten antibodies.I have hypothyroidism and allergies, and recently read that there could be some connection among hypothyoid disease, autoimmune diseases and subclinical gluten sensitivity.I have omitted wheat and other glutens from my diet for about two months now, because my allergies had worsened dramatically this year (this was before I read the article about gluten sensitivity). I am feeling better and less tired and my hip pain has gone away (bone pain and osteoporosis are associated with this gluten sensitivity), the numbness and tingling in my feet is gone, and the stiffness and swelling of my hands is going down--all symptoms of gluten sensitivity.Perhaps not all improvement comes from leaving out glutens in my diet. I have also stopped eating all dairy, which was hard for me as I love cheese. My sinuses feel so much better. I am very hopeful that this improvement will continue over time.Since the list moderator has chronic fatigue I thought she would be interested in this. For the original article with a longer list of possible symptoms for gluten sensitivity which alerted me to this diagnois read:http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/glutenceliac.htmIt is very exciting to have finally found a simple explanation for apparently unrelated symptoms which has been eluding me for years. I wish I had known about this years ago, but I guess this is what happens in the medical field--unless one has an outright full blown case of something, in this case the full blown version would be celiac sprue, one sort of falls in the cracks with all these vague indefinite symptoms which are just a subclinical gluten sensitivity (sort of matches my subclinical hypothyroidism, also ignored for years). Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine

[Guest guest]

>autoimmune problems.

 

Hi Tiffany,

 

I also have FMS/CFS. But, none of the conditions that you mention are

autoimmune

problems. Examples of autoimmune or autoimmune related are: AIDS, Crohn's

Disease,

MS, Lupus, RA.

CFS/FMS will not kill you altho, sadly, people will kill themselves when they

find no other

solution.

In western med. it is considered a neuroendocrine disorder. You may want to

try cutting out

carbs for a time. It helped me tremendously with the muscle pain. There is a

book called

the " Endocrine Control Diet " that is good as a guide. The object is to

rebalance your

endocrine system which obviously would serve FMS/CFS sufferers well. You

shouldn't

have to cut them out for a lifetime but when you resume them in your diet you

will have

to watch the quantity and quality. TCM is very helpful but just like other

medical

communities they don't get the full picture. It is not just about damp in

the

diet

(simplification, of course...we ARE on the subject of diet).

The best thing, I think, is to do as much research as you can ....www....is a

great resource!

There is a good list at FMS-RECOVERY. The

folks that seem to know the most are the sufferers themselves who have been

forced to do their own research and have been willing to share.

 

All the best,

Kit

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At 10:35 AM 10/29/02 -0800, you wrote:

 

>

> Hi,

>

> I am very interested in this as I have hypothyroid, endometriosis, and CFS. 

> My aunt also has CFS and fibromyalgia.  All autoimmune problems.

>

> Do you have to elminate all carbs?  I did an allergy diet with my TCM dr.,

> but never got to the testing phase as I got very ill with a UTI and we moved

> on to that.  I need to get back on dietary therapy, but it is so hard,

> especially when you are married to someone who does not want to eat that

> way.  My friend was telling me how bad white rice is, I thought it was

> antiallergenic.  Also, I like to eat oatmeal.  I know wheat and corn are big

> culprits, but what about the other stuff.  Also, will you ever be able to

eat

> wheat and corn again?  As you can tell I am a major carb addict and my TCM

> dr. said the main thing I need to do is exercise with muscle building

> resistance.  My allergies are much better lately with very little change in

> my diet.  Just curious...

>

>  

>

> Thanks!

>

>  

[Guest guest]

And there's a book out called " Breaking the Vicious Cycle; Intestinal

Health Through Diet " by Elaine Gottschall.

It espouses a " specific carbohydrate diet " which it claims will remedy

the symptoms of crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, diverticulitis,

celiac disease, cystic fibrosis and chronic diarrhea.

 

The book is over 165 pages. I couldn't give it justice here if I

attempted to tell you what all it says but I'm sure it would come as

no surprise that I will mention that the diet they suggest is met by

excluding lots of fun to eat foods.

 

The grains they suggest people stay away from like poison are wheat,

barley, corn, rye, oats, rice. buckwheat, millet. triticale, bulger,

and spelt.

 

Does anyone here want to remind us that the ancient Taoists are said

to have suggested a restriction of grains, something about not wanting

to feed the worms.

 

Penel

[Guest guest]

> I am very interested in this as I have hypothyroid, endometriosis,

and CFS. My aunt also has CFS and fibromyalgia. All autoimmune

problems.

 

Not all cases of hypothyroidism (underactive thyroid)are due to

autoimmune problems. Those associated with Hashimoto's Disease

(Chronic Lymphocytic Thyroiditis) are. In time the autoantibodies

and chronic inflammation of the thyroid leads to destruction of

thyroid tissue and a lack of enough thyroid hormone. (A different

type of thyroiditis, subacute thyroiditis (DeQuervain's disease) is

due to viral infection. A rarer form of thyroiditis, acute

suppurative thyroiditis, is due to bacterial infection.) Not all

cases of hypothyroidism are due to thyroiditis. A very good book

I've found is Your Thyroid: A Home Reference by Lawrence C. Wood, MD,

FACP; David S. Cooper, MD, FACP, and E. Chester Ridgway, MD, FACP.

It's over a decade old and a lot has been discovered since it came

out, but it's still good for giving an overview of various thyroid

problems.

 

Some PWCs (People With CFS/ CFIDS) suffer from autoimmune disorders,

some do not. It varies.

 

Do a search in the message base for both CFIDS and CFS. I use the

CFIDS title because to me, the CFS title trivializes the condition.

 

>other stuff. Also, will you ever be able to eat wheat and corn

again?

 

I was able to eat wheat, corn, and dairy again as long as I don't

overdo.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

>excluding lots of fun to eat foods.

 

What a loader statement that is!!!

 

Er, uh...should I say carb-loaded....tee-hee. ;-P Kit

[Guest guest]

>Some PWCs (People With CFS/ CFIDS) suffer from autoimmune disorders

 

This is true.... but they are seperate, concurrent disorders with seperate

West. Med. classifications.

 

Kit

[Guest guest]

Hi Tiffany,

 

I am not on a very low carbohydrate diet now. I have just eliminated

gluten containing grains from my diet. I do eat rice, corn (no

gluten in corn), tapioca flour, potato starch flour, sorghum and

ground beans such as fava and garbanzo made into flour. I use all

these in differing combinations to make bread without yeast. I do

not eat a lot of breads made this way since I do not think I need a

lot of bread anyway, and I do not use yeast to make gluten free

breads because I am very allergic to some antibiotics and molds.

Although I tested as not having an allergy to baker's yeast I figured

that taking a rest from this would be better for me until I feel

better for a longer time. The grains to eliminate in a gluten free

(GF) diet are wheat, rye, kamut, spelt, barley, oats and barley as

well as processed foods which contain any wheat or other glutens.

This is hard to do, since processed foods such as even bullion cubes

contain gluten. Then there is the challenge of eating out and

avoiding grain. I am thankful that my problem is not that severe, as

I probably would not get as sick as someone with a big gluten problem

if I did eat something inadvertently (or so I think).

 

I know it can be very hard to maintain a diet like this while others

around are eating normally (if such a thing exists). Still there are

benefits for them, such as learning how to eat more vegetables and

fruits. There is a lot out there these days to support a gluten free

diet. The major problem is expense, but limiting the amount of grain

products eaten can overcome a lot of that too.

 

All I can say is that I am feeling better from doing this. If a

person has a true gluten sensitivity, then probably eating grains is

not something which may be resumed without consequence in the

future. Right now there is not a known cure for gluten sensitivity

and celiac disease although I have read about some experimentation

with specific enzymes to see if gluten grains can be tolerated after

using them (sort of like providing enzymes to lactose intolerant

folks). I expect that it would have varying degrees of effect

depending on the severity of the problem in different people. I

thought that it would be interesting to try these enzymes until I

read that the enzymes were being grown on aspergillus. This is the

mold to which I am most allergic so that is out for me (Beano, for

digesting beans is grown on aspergillus--I found this out the hard

way).

 

 

>

> Chinese Traditional Medicine, Tiffany Webwise Westie <tiffytel>

wrote:

>

> Hi,

> I am very interested in this as I have hypothyroid, endometriosis,

and CFS. My aunt also has CFS and fibromyalgia. All autoimmune

problems.

> Do you have to elminate all carbs? I did an allergy diet with my

TCM dr., but never got to the testing phase as I got very ill with a

UTI and we moved on to that. I need to get back on dietary therapy,

but it is so hard, especially when you are married to someone who

does not want to eat that way. My friend was telling me how bad

white rice is, I thought it was antiallergenic. Also, I like to eat

oatmeal. I know wheat and corn are big culprits, but what about the

other stuff. Also, will you ever be able to eat wheat and corn

again? As you can tell I am a major carb addict and my TCM dr. said

the main thing I need to do is exercise with muscle building

resistance. My allergies are much better lately with very little

change in my diet. Just curious...

[Guest guest]

Hi Victoria,

 

Always interesting to read your posts.

 

I was wondering if you would share with me what type of mashed beans

you put in your meat loaf! The last one I made I put in crushed up

rice cakes and it seemed a bit dry!

 

Further comment on Caucasions needing more herbs:

 

>This is surprising because I read that caucasins usually need

smaller

> dosages of herbs, not bigger dosages. Also, when a person does

need

> more, instead of upping the dosage of a particular herb, one adds

> another herb from the same class to the formula. For example, if

the

> person is Qi Deficient and the maximum dosage of say astragalus

isn't

> enough, instead of upping the dosage of astragalus, one adds

another

> Qi tonic herb to the formula.

 

Well, I do not know if every practitioner comes from the same school

of thought as this person. He was an apprenticed TCM practitioner in

Taiwan, and has his own way of treating people with herbs. His

learning does not come from books, but was handed down over the

centuries from the old five element style of thought. I think he does

use more herbs on patients than is seen frequently in other places.

Sometimes, I think it works and then there are other times it does

not, but this is true I think of all herbalists and herbs. I have

seen him use large amounts of shi gao and fu zi, which he claims

others do not know how to use correctly. The fu zi certainly would

get me warm, but again it is not something you can use all the time,

so I would still be feeling a bit cold after getting off it. Never

did feel consistently warm until I got on thyroid medicine.

 

The Chinese seem to revere this man as a very learned master, so I

guess there is something which works in his methods most of the

time. As I say, I saw a lot of people cured by him. I also saw a

lot of people, especially Chinese, travel thousands of miles to see

him.

 

Anyway, he and the other Chinese seemed to feel that Westerners need

more herbs because our diets, including all the medications many of

us have taken, make us less sensitive to the Chinese herbs. He would

often say that some patients needed enough herbs to cure an elephant,

and that all he had to do was smell some of the herbs to get well.

 

> Any time there are problems with the ears, suspect and rule in or

> rule out Kidney imbalance.

 

Yes, kidney imbalance has been a big problem for me (kidney yang and

yin deficiency). So that is why the triphala has been such a

blessing for me. I was awash in all these Chinese formulas for

this, and nothing changed it that much until, on my own, I decided to

give this Ayurvedic panacea a trial about a month or so ago. What a

boon it has been. I am feeling better all the time. Evidently it

works on the body's water system (I guess that would include

kidneys), the heart and circulatory system as well (among other

things it is reputed to do). Whatever, it is agreeing with me. And

it is a long term tonic which is best used in the fall and winter.

 

Thanks for the suggestion about digestive enzymes. I have been

trying to find a formula which would work for me. I asked my

allergist for some recently and he gave me some which he had in his

office. I never got so sick with anything so quickly. It turned out

the enzymes were grown on aspergillus mold to which I am extremely

allergic (you would think the allergist should have known this?? Or

the bottle should have had it printed on it). It seems most plant

based enzymes are grown on aspergillus, so I am really unsure what

digestive enzymes I could take. Right now I am using bromelain with

meals, but recently read that bromelain should not be used for longer

than ten days (with no explanation as to why). So confusing all

this, like stepping through a mine field.

 

I thank you for your long and very informative letters.

 

Best wishes,

 

Sarah

 

- In Chinese Traditional Medicine, " victoria_dragon " <victoria_dragon@h...>

wrote:

> > I think I am excited about learning about low level gluten

> > sensitivity because I have used TCM herbs and acupuncture fairly

> > heavily for over three years, with two different practitioners,

and

> > the gluten sensitivity symptoms I had were not changing that

much,

> > although my health overall improved a lot.

>

> In my case I had eliminated dairy and cut way down on grains long

> before I discovered TCM. That may be why I responded so well to

TCM.

> At one point I had eliminated grains completely too. I used to

make

> meat loaf with mashed up cooked beans instead of a grain. Then I

got

> so I could eat some grains. Eventually I got to the point where I

> could handle some dairy. I wouldn't dare drink a glass of milk

even

> today, but I can handle some yogurt, cheese, and butter as well as

> foods that are prepared with some milk. After getting to a certain

> point, I discovered that the yogurt actually helps in my case. Back

> in the days when I was so bothered by dairy, any dairy, including

> yogurt hurt. But things change.

>

> Sometimes the best course of action is to eliminate certain foods.

> And this too is a TCM treatment (as well as a Western one.) That's

> the only thing that will work or enable other therapies to work.

> Sometimes the elimination will be permanent; other times it will be

> temporary. Temporary may range from a few weeks to years.

>

> Sometimes the problem with wheat is not so much the wheat but the

> yeast used in bread making. The person can handle pasta. Sometimes

> the person can handle bread made with water but not milk.

>

> > Gluten sensitivity and celiac disease are apparently more wide

> spread

> > than realized in the past among those of European descent, so it

> > stands to reason that protocols in TCM may not have been

developed

> as

> > of yet for these cases, since few Asians have this problem.

>

> Ethnic origin does need to be taken into account when evaluating a

> client. There are many conditions that are more likely in some

> groups than in others. I remember a woman with Native American

> ancestory telling me about the horrible digestive system problems

she

> used to have and all the tests doctor gave her. Nothing worked

until

> some doctor took into account that she was Native American and

> probably lactose intolerant. Once she eliminated lactose, she was

> fine.

>

> Sometimes the location needs to be taken into account too. For

> example, bubonic plague still exists in Arizona. It's not that

common

> even in AZ, but the state does see an occasional cases. The

prairie

> dog population is a reservoir for bubonic plague. Occasionally

> someone, particularly hunters will come down with it. The year we

> lived west of Phoenix, a vetenarian died of it. His doctors

> diagnosed it as flu, but it was plague. He got it when he was

> hunting and skinned a rabbit. The irony is that had anyone realized

> that he had bubonic plague and not the flu, he had the antibiotic

> needed to cure it because he was a veternarian. In places like

> Arizona healers definitely need to know the symptoms of and

consider

> bubonic plague.

>

> Valley Fever is something else that needs to be considered in

> diagnosis if the person has spent some time in the U.S. southwest

> deserts, particularly around Phoenix. Valley Fever has many

symptoms

> very similar to CFIDS. It's caused by I believe a fungus. It has

> become more common because of the population boom. All the new

> construction has kicked it up from the desert floor.

>

> > I do

> > know that the practitioner where I was had to give stronger and

> > stronger brews of teas to those of Irish, German, and Scottish

> > descent. He used to joke about it, but sometimes even this

> approach

> > did not work totally.

>

> This is surprising because I read that caucasins usually need

smaller

> dosages of herbs, not bigger dosages. Also, when a person does

need

> more, instead of upping the dosage of a particular herb, one adds

> another herb from the same class to the formula. For example, if

the

> person is Qi Deficient and the maximum dosage of say astragalus

isn't

> enough, instead of upping the dosage of astragalus, one adds

another

> Qi tonic herb to the formula.

>

> Some herbs will act different depending on the dosage.

>

> > And some

> > patients got so disgusted with the excessively strong brews they

> were

> > getting that they would then quit his care (cannot say as I blame

> > them, after spending so much time and seeing very minor results

for

> > your symptoms you start to look elsewhere for some kind of

answer).

>

> Sometimes in healing, one needs to prioritize. Take logical steps.

> Two of the big priorities with people with CFIDS (as well as people

> with quite a few other conditions) are digestion and allergies.

Get

> those two under some control first or one cannot possibly do

anything

> about the other problems. The person is not going to be able to

take

> the herbs (or the prescription drugs) or eat nourishing food if the

> person has multiple allergies and can't digest what one takes.

>

> I remember when I still was very sick, the head of the local CFIDS

> support group had all of us list our three most troubling

symptoms.

> Number one for me was the fatigue. Number two was the horrible

> nausea. Number three was a tie between the digestive system

problems

> and the breathing problems. I couldn't decide which was more

> troubling and debilitating, the digestive system problems (cramps,

> pain, gas, etc.) or the breathing problems. As it turned out, my

> instincts in listing digestion and breathing was right on target

> because the digestive system problems were playing a big role in

the

> breathing problems.

>

> I knew from experience that I couldn't do anything about the

fatigue,

> but I thought I could find something to help the other problems. I

> gradually discovered more and more things that helped the nausea,

> breathing problems, and digestive problems. As those problems

eased,

> the fatigue also eased. So did a lot of other things.

>

> > Something I have tried for a month now, which seems to be helping

> me

> > a lot is an Indian herbal formula called Triphala. It balances

> what

> > the Indians call all the doshas (body types). My current level

of

> > health is the result of using TCM herbs, and the more recently

> > thyroid medication.

>

> BTW, PWCs (People With CFIDS) frequently have problems with what I

> call accelerating allergies. Existing allergies get worse and the

> person rapidly develops new allergies. I have been to the point on

> more than one occasion where just about everything I ate bothered

> me. So did just about every prescription drug. So did herbs. Over

> the years I discovered that a small amount of thyroid replacement

> hormone plus a small amount of cortisone would stop this downward

> spiral. I discovered this independently over the years. A few

years

> ago I read about a doctor who had noted that this combination of

> small amounts of thyroid and cortisone tended to stop what I

> call " downward (allergy) spirals " in people with CFIDS. It doesn't

> work on all PWCs, but many. And a much smaller than normal dose of

> both for a much shorter period of time than the two usually are

> used. In my case the two definitely were indicated. I have a

> history of on-again, off-again thyroid problems dating back to

> childhood. It was obvious I had allegies. The antihistamines were

> not enough, so I got placed on cortisone. That's how I gradually

came

> to realize that the combination of the two can stop a downward

> spiral. Eventually I got to the point where I reacted very badly

to

> antihistamines so cortisone had to be used in my case. (Only a

> licensed MD or DO can provide this particular therapy.)

>

> BTW, a lot of PWCs require much lower than normal dosages of a

number

> of drugs. I noticed that I also frequently had to use smaller than

> normal dosages of things like magnesium and herbs (at least when I

> first started on them).

>

> > Still there was the perennial dampness in my

> > ear, which no one could seem to cure. Triphala has opened up

> > something in the outer surface of the ear--all sorts of small

> > hardened pieces seem to be working their way out. I feel so much

> > better in that ear now, and all thanks to Triphala. I really

feel

> > that this formula is helping me to recover my health, opening up

> some

> > of the blocked water channels.

>

> Any time there are problems with the ears, suspect and rule in or

> rule out Kidney imbalance.

>

> > I am interested in the Leaky Gut Sydrome as well,

>

> Do a search in the message base or on the Internet for Fratkin.

He's

> a doctor who wrote a very good article on it.

>

> > but am wondering

> > now if this type of low level gluten sensitivity (in which there

is

> > no enzyme to digest gluten or perhaps there is some enzyme but it

> is

> > not enough to handle gluten)

>

> It's a snowballing situation. The enzymes are made from nutrients

> the body takes in. If the person is not getting enough nutrients

to

> make enough enzymes, even less nutrients are available and even

less

> enzymes are made. It's a snowballing situation that gradually

> becomes worse and worse and worse. Hence, the need for addressing

> digestive system problems up front if the person is to get the help

> s/he needs. If one cannot aborb the nutrients or healing substance

> because of poor digestion, one cannot be helped. I've worded this

in

> a Western context of talking about enzymes, but the principle is

the

> same for TCM. If the Spleen is weak, the person is not getting

> enough Qi from the foods s/he eats. The Qi simply is not available

to

> run other bodily processes as well as digestion.

>

> BTW, in an informal poll of PWCs in which they were asked to list

> what helped their digestive problems the most, the number one

answer

> was digestive system enzymes. They did wonders for me. It makes

> sense. They helped me get more nutrients that my body needed to

> repair itself and run smoothly.

>

> > could be behind at least some people's

> > problems with wheat and other gluten grains, causing in them

Leaky

> > Gut Syndrome.

>

> The use of antibiotics will lead to Leaky Gut Syndrome. So will

the

> used of NSAIDs (Non Steroid AntiInflammatory Drugs). I was set up

> for LGS by both. Aspirin is a mild NSAID. I started having severe

> headaches in junior high school. I can remember sitting in class

and

> swallowing aspirins and Goody powders without water. I had so many

> headaches so often that I didn't ask to be excused to take

something

> for my headaches. I learned to take the aspirin or powder without

> water. Just that many aspirins over a period of years would be

> enough to trigger LGS, but I compounded the problem by taking them

> without water. That was some very concentrated amounts of aspirin.

>

> Fratkin's article goes into detail on triggers for LGS. One thing

> that stands out for me is that if the person is having digestive

> system problems (and some other symptoms he mentions) and if the

> person has a history of antibiotic use, suspect LGS. If the person

> has had multiple courses of antibiotics, the chances for LGS rises

> with each course. I had had multiple courses. I am one of a subset

of

> PWCs who were helped by antibiotics. Solution: Find alternatives

to

> the antibiotics. Hence, my use of echinacea which is an immune

> system balancer. (It's NOT an immune system booster as some write,

> but a balancer. It will boost immune system function when it needs

> boosting but it also will tone down the immune system when toning

> down is needed. This is why the herb has uses for both infections

and

> allergies. I've learned to save the antibiotics for cases where

the

> echinacea and other herbs with anti-bacterial properties do not

work

> or do not work well enough. Also, antibiotics work better if the

> person is receiving adequate vitamins like A and C and minerals

like

> magnesium and zinc. All these play some very important roles in

> immune response. But the person is not receiving adequate A, C,

zinc,

> magnesium, etc. if the digestion is messed up and food is not being

> properly digested. It all fits together. Like rows of dominoes

> going down.

>

> Some people lack the enzymes to digest grains becaues of genetics.

> Some people make a few but not enough to handle large amounts of

> grain. As long as they don't eat a lot of grains, they do not run

> into problems. Others may be short of enough of these enzymes

because

> their bodies are not getting enough nutrients to make enough

enzymes.

> They got this way because of fad dieting, because of poor food

> choices, because of developing LGS from taking antiobiotics,

because

> the food they eat is overly processed, because the food is grown on

> poor soil, etc.

>

> Some people will need to limit grains forever. Some will be able

to

> return to eating them eventually (as long as they don't overdo it.

>

> Thanks,

> Victoria

[Guest guest]

> This is true.... but they are seperate, concurrent disorders with

seperate

> West. Med. classifications.

 

Not always. I've known cases where autoantibodies were present in

the PWC (Person With CFIDS/ CFS) but the person did not fit the

criteria of any of the recognized autoimmune disorders. Problems in

treatment arose when they were diagnosed with autoimmune disorders

that they didn't really fit the criteria for.

 

Then there are cases where the person does fit the criteria for a

recognized autoimmune disorder. The thing about CFIDS is that

untreated, there are a number of other disorders that tend to

develop. Among these are hypoglycemia, pharyngitis, allergies,

Mitral Valve Prolapse, yeast infections, glandular problems

(especially various thyroid problems), etc.

 

CFIDS/ CFS can be a chain reaction of things going wrong in the body.

I describe it as a condition that creates its own opportunities. One

by one things start to go wrong in the body. For example, the

thyroid gland which should be helping the body instead helps the

CFIDS by throwing the body into even greater imbalance. Part of a

workable approach to treating CFIDS is to treat the many other

conditions that can go along with CFIDS. If the person is

hypothyroid, the doctor treats the hypothyroidism. This takes stress

off the body that the CFIDS needs to get worse and strengthens the

body and the ability to fight off the CFIDS. Identifying and treating

the various TCM imbalances that can be present does the same thing.

 

If the problem does not fit any known Western-defined disorder, go

back to the basics of physiology to figure out something that works.

This can be a surprisingly effective approach. Especially when

combined with identifying and treating the various identifiable

disorders that can go along with CFIDS/ CFS.

 

CFIDS/ CFS is treatable. BUT, it is not treatable by assembly line

medicine. Very often what will help the most is going back to some of

the basics of healing. For examples, good diet of whole foods,

digestive enzymes, staying hydrated if dehydration is a problem,

getting enough rest, vitamin and mineral supplementation, etc.

Strengthen the body and restore balance. Treating CFIDS/ CFS is

challenging. But what the healer learns in learning to treat CFIDS/

CFS successfully has applications for treating other conditions,

including (but not limited to) other conditions where the cause is

not known. The healer (and patient) will be challenged to use his/her

powers of observation, knowledge, ability to analyze, and ability to

figure things out.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

> CFS/FMS will not kill you altho, sadly, people will kill themselves

when they

> find no other

> solution.

 

The CFS/ CFIDS possibly won't kill you, but some of the things that

can be associated with CFS/ CFIDS will. I'm thinking in particular of

magnesium deficiency here, though it's not limited to that.

 

One of the effects of Mg deficiency is an increased tendency to form

blood clots. I have known and known of so many PWCs and their

genetic relatives who died from blood clots in the heart or brain. As

far as I know, no studies have been done on this, but someone needs

to look at it.

 

In the meanwhile I encourage PWCs (People With CFIDS) and their

genetic relatives to research Mg deficiency and the many health

problems that can be associated with it. Actually, it's a good idea

for everyone to become more aware of Mg given the many problems Mg

deficiency can produce. But PWCs and their genetic relatives seem to

be particularly hard-hit.

 

Certain medical procedures like chemotherapy carry with them an

increased risk of blood clots. It is particulary important to check

Mg levels prior to and during the coarse of chemotherapy for anyone.

But, it can be even more critical in the case of a PWC or a genetic

relative of a PWC.

 

Mg also plays some key roles in immune system functioning and can be

a factor in both infections and allergies.

 

Some tests for Mg are better than others. Some of the blood tests

will not give an accurate reading on Mg levels in cells.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

Yes, I understand that there can be different causes of CFS. I feel it started out with me when I was 14 and got Mono, then the CFS started and the Dr. said I had the Epstein Barr virus and I was sick for months, couldn't lift my arms above my head. My parents loaded me up with vitamins and I was better for a while, but always have been suseptible to every bug going around. Then in my early 20's I went through a traumatic event and the years of stress after have taken their toll. Both my endocrinologist and my TCM Dr. agree that severe stress can bring on diseases that you may be prone to have due to genetics at an earlier, advanced rate. Well, the CFS came on with a vengance and I could not get out of bed, but this time a different Dr. dx with the hypothyroid/CFS which the hypo runs in the family. Little did I know at the time I also had Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome or Metabolic syndrome and endometriosis, all of which along with the thyroid are interrelated.

<Among these are hypoglycemia, pharyngitis, allergies, Mitral Valve Prolapse, yeast infections, glandular problems (especially various thyroid problems), etc.>

I have all these conditions now, only figuring it out after having a stroke at 24 from having sky high insulin levels. If only I would have known, and taken better care of me. They (Cardiologists) told me that MVP was congenital, I did not know it could be caused by autoimmune problems.

I really want to get better, I am still too young to have so many conditions. I am exercising and trying to modify diet, lose weight, and do acupuncture and herbs. The endometriosis is better, the thyroid is improving, but what else can I do to improve my overall health?

Thanks for letting me vent, I worry too much! I am also in mental health counseling for the depression I am in. : ) victoria_dragon <victoria_dragon wrote:

> This is true.... but they are seperate, concurrent disorders with seperate > West. Med. classifications.Not always. I've known cases where autoantibodies were present in the PWC (Person With CFIDS/ CFS) but the person did not fit the criteria of any of the recognized autoimmune disorders. Problems in treatment arose when they were diagnosed with autoimmune disorders that they didn't really fit the criteria for.Then there are cases where the person does fit the criteria for a recognized autoimmune disorder. The thing about CFIDS is that untreated, there are a number of other disorders that tend to develop. Among these are hypoglycemia, pharyngitis, allergies, Mitral Valve Prolapse, yeast infections, glandular problems (especially various thyroid problems), etc.CFIDS/ CFS can be a chain reaction of things going wrong in the body. I describe it as a condition that creates its own opportunities. One by one things start to go wrong in the body. For example, the thyroid gland which should be helping the body instead helps the CFIDS by throwing the body into even greater imbalance. Part of a workable approach to treating CFIDS is to treat the many other conditions that can go along with CFIDS. If the person is hypothyroid, the doctor treats the hypothyroidism. This takes stress off the body that the CFIDS needs to get worse and strengthens the body and the ability to fight off the CFIDS. Identifying and treating the various TCM imbalances that can be present does the same thing.If the problem does not fit any known Western-defined disorder, go back to the basics of physiology to figure out something that works. This can be a surprisingly effective approach. Especially when combined with identifying and treating the various identifiable disorders that can go along with CFIDS/ CFS.CFIDS/ CFS is treatable. BUT, it is not treatable by assembly line medicine. Very often what will help the most is going back to some of the basics of healing. For examples, good diet of whole foods, digestive enzymes, staying hydrated if dehydration is a problem, getting enough rest, vitamin and mineral supplementation, etc. Strengthen the body and restore balance. Treating CFIDS/ CFS is challenging. But what the healer learns in learning to treat CFIDS/ CFS successfully has applications for treating other conditions, including (but not limited to) other conditions where the cause is not known. The healer (and patient) will be challenged to use his/her powers of observation, knowledge, ability to analyze, and ability to figure things out.Victoria Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine

[Guest guest]

> I was wondering if you would share with me what type of mashed

beans

> you put in your meat loaf! The last one I made I put in crushed up

> rice cakes and it seemed a bit dry!

 

Kidney beans. The meatloaf wouldn't hold its shape out of the pan,

but it tasted good. When it was spooned out it looked more like

Sloppy Joe mix than meatloaf, but it did provide variety in the diet.

What I could eat back then was very limited.

 

> Anyway, he and the other Chinese seemed to feel that Westerners

need

> more herbs because our diets, including all the medications many of

> us have taken, make us less sensitive to the Chinese herbs. He

would

> often say that some patients needed enough herbs to cure an

elephant,

> and that all he had to do was smell some of the herbs to get well.

 

I guess some Westerners are not sensitive to herbs whereas some are.

I know the Yin tonic herbs can be particularly bothersome because of

the tendency to have a weakened Spleen and a tendency to Damp because

of that.

 

> Thanks for the suggestion about digestive enzymes. I have been

> trying to find a formula which would work for me. I asked my

> allergist for some recently and he gave me some which he had in his

> office. I never got so sick with anything so quickly. It turned

out

> the enzymes were grown on aspergillus mold to which I am extremely

> allergic (you would think the allergist should have known this?? Or

> the bottle should have had it printed on it).

 

It's like most Western drugs, even those for digestive system

problems using lactose as a filler/ binder even though a lot of

people with digestive system problems are lactose intolerant. Sort

of defeats the purpose of the drug.

 

Allergy to aspergillus is a fairly common problem. It crops up

enough that one would think the manufacturers would use something

else as a growth medium.

 

> It seems most plant

> based enzymes are grown on aspergillus, so I am really unsure what

> digestive enzymes I could take. Right now I am using bromelain

with

> meals, but recently read that bromelain should not be used for

longer

> than ten days (with no explanation as to why). So confusing all

> this, like stepping through a mine field.

 

Have you tried adding fresh pineapple to your diet instead of the

bromelain tablets? Fresh papaya?

 

I especially like the taste of uncooked pineapple. It's like nothing

one can get out of a can. More delicate. It's not overpowering in

taste. More of a subtle blend of light flavors.

 

Another possibility is a company that pays special attention to the

problem of various allergies. Some companies are more aware and more

careful than others.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

> Yes, I understand that there can be different causes of CFS. I

feel it started out with me when I was 14 and got Mono, then the CFS

started and the Dr. said I had the Epstein Barr virus and I was sick

for months, couldn't lift my arms above my head.

 

This is how it started out for me. Six months after having my gall

bladder removed I came down with mono-induced hepatitis. This was

not my first case of mono. I had had it a few years earlier when I

was 17, and I very possibly had had it when I was 11. Back then,

doctors believed that children didn't get mono. They also believed

that once you got it, you never got it again. It would also be many

years before it was realied that there is such a thing as chronic as

well as recurring mono.

 

I was never the same after that bout of mono-induced hepatitis.

 

> My parents loaded me up with vitamins and I was better for a

while, but always have been suseptible to every bug going around.

 

I just plain lucked up after developing CFS/ CFIDS in that after I

was forced to move home because the mono symptoms were not resolving

as they should have, I got an old country doctor who believed in

vitamins and was trying a number of his patients on B12 shots. As it

turned out, B12 shots are one of the things that helps many PWCs.

(This was in the '70's, years before what I had had a name.) I

eventually recovered enough that I was able to go back to school and

even work part-time while going to school. But I was never the same

again.

 

Unfortunately, because a lot was not known back then that is known

today, I didn't take the precautions I should have. I had a third

bout of mono and the 2nd major flare-ups of the CFIDS.

 

It was harder to gain partial remission from that 2nd. major flare-up

than from the first. More problems were identified. Fortunately, I

again had a doctor who listened and who tried to figure out things

that helped. (I didn't get him right away and had to go through a

couple of doctors who didn't listen.)

 

I stayed in this partial remission until the spring of 1989. By then

I was married and we had moved to the desert southwest. What got me

was that the spring of 89 was unusually hot, dry, and windy. I had

the third major flare-up. Again, I eventually got a doctor who

because he listened and identified and treated what he could, enabled

me to go into partial remission. A big problem was that with each

major flare-up, I never recovered completely. It was progressive for

me. No one thought to do a monospot test at this time, so I don't

know if the mono had flared again or not. The hypothyroid problems

definitely had. So had the allergies. (The thyroid problems I have

are somehow tied to the bouts of mono or other viral infections.)

 

I still didn't know I had CFIDS or exactly what to do. So I went

back into doing things I should not have been doing, and I didn't

stay in partial remission long. Like pushing myself physically,

standing out on a ladder painting the house we were buying in the

cold February wind, etc. By this time I was tried of feeling crappy

and had decided to just ignore how bad I felt and push on

regardless. It was one of the biggest mistakes I ever made. I ended

up the sickest I had ever been from this.

 

The day I found out I had another positive monospot test was the day

when I turned to alternative medicine. I knew from back in the 70's

that very high dosages of vitamins and minerals had helped. They

gradually did again, but by that time I was so sick that they were

not enough by themselves. But by that time there was a local CFIDS

Support Group, and I was able to find out a lot in a hurry. I also

saw a doctor 70 miles away in Tucson who treated a lot of PWCs and

was qualified to diagnose the problem and treat it. Eventually I

discovered TCM, and the results were dramatic. Three weeks after

starting on the herbs, I had enough energy and it was consistent

enough that I was able to start a light exercise program that

targeted specific problems. One of the exercises was an yoga

exercise to benefit the thyroid.

 

> I really want to get better, I am still too young to have so many

conditions. I am exercising and trying to modify diet, lose weight,

and do acupuncture and herbs. The endometriosis is better, the

thyroid is improving, but what else can I do to improve my overall

health?

 

What are the three most troubling/debilitating symptoms you have?

 

I would guess (from experience) that the thyroid problems need some

prioritizing. If it's thyroiditis, there is inflammation. Work on

the inflamation of the thyroid. There are herbs - like tumeric (that

you can get in the spice section of the supermarket) - that have

antiinflammatory properties. Castor oil packs over the area of

inflammation also help inflammation. (There are some posts in the

message base on castor oil packs. Also, you can do a google search.)

There are yoga exercises that benefit the thyroid. I caution against

NSAIDs (Non Steroid AntiInflammatory Drugs for PWCs. The side

effects can be very bad. But sometimes the PWC absolutely has to

have the NSAIDs because of a serious co-existing medical problem.

But when possible, find alternative methods of treating the

inflammation.

 

Is there a trained TCM healer in your area? A visit may be very

helpful. If not, find out all you can about TCM on your own. The

earliest posts in the message base are designed to walk those new to

TCM through the basics. Bob Flaws has a book on Fibromyalgia Syndrome

and TCM. (Some experts believe CFIDS and FMS are the same. If the

pain predominates, the person gets the CFIDS diagnosis. If the pain

predominates, the person gets the FMS diagnosis. Others believe that

FMS is one of those many things that PWCs are prone to getting. In

any event, there is an amazing overlap of symptoms between the two.)

 

> Thanks for letting me vent, I worry too much! I am also in mental

health counseling for the depression I am in. : )

 

Venting can be very helpful in helping one deal with CFIDS (or any

other chronic medical condition). I have engaged in some famous (in

my family) venting in my time.

 

Worry points to possible Spleen imbalance. Being susceptible to

various infections points to possible Protective Qi Deficiency (and

Lung and/or Spleen Deficiency).

 

The herpes viruses that cause mono can result in depression. Do you

have an active case of mono or some other viral infection at present?

 

I have a teddy bear that is very soothing when I'm feeling

particularly bad. That doesn't happen very often these days.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

>I've known cases where autoantibodies were present in

>the PWC (Person With CFIDS/ CFS)

 

 

 

Hi Victoria,

Well it looks like I'll have to eat crow on this one!

While I was preparing my agree-to-disagree rebuttal, I pulled up

one of my bookmarks on testing. It is the only definitive test available

for FMS. There are no lab tests available in the Dr. office only this

expensive research lab test....The Anti-Polymer Antibody Assay, or APA Assay

 

 

" The APA Assay appears to be the first practical blood test for fibromyalgia.

Data from the San Antonio study is now being used to prepare clinical testing

protocols to propose to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration as part of the

process of winning FDA approval of the APA Assay as a diagnostic test for

fibromyalgia. The published results suggest that the APA Assay may objectively

contribute to distinguishing between patients with fibromyalgia and patients

with connective tissue diseases such as systemic lupus erythematosus, systemic

sclerosis, Sjögren's syndrome, rheumatoid arthritis, and poly/dermatomyosis. "

 

 

They still don't quite say autoimmune but only abnormal immune response (hmmm,

I might be havin' a hard time letting

go of this one! ;-( )

 

" Drugs which modulate a patient's immune response are frequently prescribed by

physicians to help alleviate symptoms in autoimmune disease patients. The APA

Assay shows that an abnormal immune response is present in most fibromyalgia

patients, and physicians could choose to interpret this finding as an

indication that such drugs might also be useful in treating fibromyalgia

patients. "

 

 

But the following couldn't help but get me abit turned around:

 

" Both articles also present results showing that APA reactivity is markedly

lower (p<0.05) in patients with diffuse connective tissue diseases than in

patients with fibromyalgia or fibromyalgia-like symptoms alone. Such

connective

tissue diseases include rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosus and

systemic sclerosis/scleroderma, and it can be difficult, particularly in

severe

cases of fibromyalgia, to differentiate fibromyalgia from these diseases. "

<http://www.autoimmune.com/APASciSumHtml.html>http://www.autoimmune.com/APA

SciSumHtml.html

 

It will be interesting to see what happens when this test finally becomes

available.

Guess we'll finally be able to 'seperate the wheat from the chaff'....

 

Kit

 

 

 

" Fibromyalgia is a dysfunction of the biochemical informational substances

(neurotransmitters, hormones, peptides, etc.) and is non-degenerative,

non-progressive, non-inflammatory, pain amplification disorder. It is systemic

and biochemical in nature. "

<http://www.sover.net/~devstar/define.htm>http://www.sover.net/~devstar/def

ine.htm

" fibromyalgia syndrome (FMS),... because of its substantial symptom overlap

with

chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS), it can be viewed as applying to chronic

fatigue

syndrome patients as well.

http://www.underwriting.co.za/Medical%201/Musculo-skeletal/Disorders/Soft%20

Tissue%20Diseases/fibromya.htm

 

 

 

More: from Leon Chaitow DO, CFS/FMS: Visiting Expert Presentation

" I find that broadly speaking patients with FMS/CFS have a mix of

biomechanical,biochemical and psychosocial etiological features, often with

one

or other being dominent. Examples :

Biochemical : features may involve thyroid dysfunction, chronic viral or yeast

infection, food/chemicle intolerances allergies....and others

Biomechanical : features may involve respiratory imbalance (hyperventilation),

whiplash injury, widespread myofacial trigger points activity

Psychosocial : features may involve depression, anxiety etc

Many seem to have an inborn tendency towards these chronic states (familial

evidence of others with similar conditions) which has been exacerbated by

events.

I work from the position of attempting to reduce the adaptive load being dealt

with by the individuals homeostatic mechanisms, at the same time as attempting

to enhance their adaptive capabilities.

i.e. " Lighten the load and increase coping potential " - and allow natural

self-regulating mechanisms to do the rest. "

<http://www.holisticmed.com/cfs/chaitow.html>http://www.holisticmed.com/cfs

/chaitow.html

 

From the book by David S. Bell, M.D., The Disease of a Thousand Names

" The nonspecific nature of the name CFIDS is appropriate because while there

are many symptoms, disabling fatigue and exhaustion are the most prominent and

consistent. However, fatigue, probably the most universal symptom, is the most

severe symptom in only half of the patients. The rest have either headaches,

muscle pain, joint pain, visual disturbances, emotional changes, memory loss,

confusion, lymph node pain, or abdominal pain as the most severe symptom.

Individual symptoms may vary in intensity, but the pattern of symptoms remains

remarkably constant. These symptoms can be completely disabling and may

persist

for years, or they may be minor to the degree of being no more than a

nuisance.

The combination of numerous severe somatic complaints and only minor

abnormalities on physical exam and routine laboratory testing is the reason

many physicians have dismissed this illness as hypochondriasis. In the past

fifty years, the emphasis in medicine has been to divide illnesses into

categories by the nature of the symptoms. Therefore, a joint specialist would

see CFIDS as a form of arthritis, a psychiatrist would see it as mental

illness, and an allergist would see it as a manifestation of allergies.

And specialists have been unable to make much progress in studying this

illness, primarily because of the lack of " disease " in the organs in which

they

specialize. That is to say, although the muscles hurt, muscle biopsies are

normal or show minimal changes only. Although there are headaches, CT scans of

the brain are normal. Specialists are interested in diseases originating in

their area of specialty. In these days of specialty medicine, a patient with

CFIDS might see more than ten different specialists, and none will be able to

find the cause of the complaints. In CFIDS, whatever causes the symptoms is

outside of the limited specialties. We are witnessing a disease so fundamental

in its origin that it affects all body systems but causes little damage. "

<http://www.co-cure.org/dbell_en.htm>http://www.co-cure.org/dbell_en.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi Kit...

 

> TCM is very helpful but just like other medical

> communities they don't get the full picture.

 

This is a very important point. What makes you say

it?

 

I totally disagree with your fundamental assumption,

by the way.

 

Bye,

Hugo

 

 

 

Everything you'll ever need on one web page

from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

http://uk.my.

[Guest guest]

>You shouldn't

>have to cut them out for a lifetime but when you resume them in your diet you

will have

>to watch the quantity and quality. TCM is very helpful but just like other

medical

>communities they don't get the full picture. It is not just about damp in the

diet

>(simplification, of course...we ARE on the subject of diet).

 

 

 

Hi Hugo,

No offense taken. The post was about carbs and

diet which is why I included the parenthesis to limit

it's context...so that no one would get upset over the

statement....guess it didn't entirely work. I'm sorry that it upset you

but it wasn't quite my meaning. I don't know if you have followed

the whole thread or not....you might want to work

backwards. That might help. Personally, my

TCM Dr. has worked wonders for me. And, his

dx coincides with much of what I have found out

about this syndrome on my own...as does much

of what TCM says about it. I find out more

and more all the time as do most PWC's (I'll adopt

Victoria's term) who do the research. It is unfortunate

when one gets a patient who has decided that they

will not get better (cure isn't an issue). That is not the

point I was trying to make. The point, if you note the rest of

the post, is that one who has this should do as much research

about it as they can. Because despite the

fact that they can be helped by a number of

modalities, alot of it is about lifestyle change and

how to manage one's life with this condition.

 

Kit

 

 

 

10:09 PM 10/30/02 +0000, you wrote:

>

> Hi Kit...

>

> > TCM is very helpful but just like other medical

> > communities they don't get the full picture.

>

> This is a very important point. What makes you say

> it?

>

> I totally disagree with your fundamental assumption,

> by the way.

>

> Bye,

> Hugo

>

>

>

> Everything you'll ever need on one web page

> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts

> <http://uk.my.>http://uk.my.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--- Kit <kitcurtin wrote:

> > TCM is very helpful but just like other medical

> >communities they don't get the full picture. It is

> not just about damp in the diet

> >(simplification, of course...we ARE on the subject

> of diet).

 

> Hi Hugo,

> No offense taken.

 

Glad. You did get my private email? Computer froze

just as I sent it.

I don't think you answered my question which was

_why_ you say that TCM " doesn't get the full picture " .

 

Beyond your comment being an important point about

TCM's ability to treat disease (since TCM _depends_

upon getting the whole picture) we need to have

support and back-up for those statements, otherwise

they undermine our already weak belief/faith/trust in

these types of systems. It is so easy to fall back on

western medicine since it is what many of us have been

educated with. And if we do that, we cannot really get

deeply into TCM, and then of course we end up all

dissatisfied because TCM doesn't seem to have the

whole picture...when the main problem is probably our

own incomplete perception.

 

Now, I am _not_ stating that TCM " has " the whole

picture.

 

I state the following:

1. TCM strives to understand disease via a 'wholistic'

understanding - which is as much of the whole, the

totality, as it is possible to embrace - furtehrmore

this is largely a function of the individual

practitioner ('s understanding of the Chinese Medical

system - their maturity, we could say).

2. I see no reason why each of us cannot add our own

experience and understanding to the monolithic CM

literature and system, and participate in its

/unfolding/, /self-recognition/ and advancement.

3. If you find there to be a limitation to CM, it is

important to express it and discuss it rather than

toss it out as an aside. If we toss that sort of

comment off as an aside, it seems to me that we

devalue the absolutely tremendous depth of

understanding and

cultural/emotional/physical/mental/spiritual cohesion

which CM represents.

 

In my case, CM has helped me breathe better, see

better, hear better, move better, think and feel

better! Even the way I walk and run is different!

Simple knowledge of the channel sinews, their linkages

and functions, helped to unfold my own natural

movement! (plus practice of course) CM is a

compilation of human experience. It is so deep and

vibrant, and we can easily recognise it if we can only

do what the old ones did which is to pay extreeeemely

close attention to ourselves. We have a ready-set

system to stand on and guide us, so that each of us

can a) achieve what our forebears did, and b) see and

travel further. But we can't do that if we don't know

how to use the system!

 

Every TCM doctor (including those trained in western

med) I've asked has stated that it is beneficial to

learn both, but that CM should be learned first,

because the thinking is so subtle and easily overcome

by the brute force of modern science.

 

All that said, I know a lot of it is rehash, and I

apologise, and if the tone is distasteful I apologise

for that too, but there you have it! I _am_ interested

in what the flaw that you see in TCM is - whether it's

a general flaw or something less serious - if only so

I can understand what many of my patients are

thinking.

 

Please remember that many of us, and many of our

patients grew up int he culture of impatience plus the

magic bullet. As we speak, medical scientists are

trying to find " A " cure for MS. The cure. No, or very

little differentiation. The also search for " the "

active ingredient, and of course they will miss it

because it doesn't exist.

 

I believe this is an important dialogue, and I would

liek to have your imput.

 

One last thing: I was reading this book on

biomimmicry (science learning from nature) and there

are some very revealing passages in there which I will

copy up for next time.

 

Until then, thank you for reading, and a good day to

you!

 

Hugo

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

>Glad. You did get my private email? Computer froze

>just as I sent it.

>I don't think you answered my question which

was

>_why_ you say that TCM " doesn't get the full picture " .

 

 

No...it's all coming thru the list.

 

Because TCM says just " damp " , not ALL carbs, in order

to rebalance the endocrine system. Not everyone needs

such a restriction. But, for most it would speed up adrenal

recovery, etc. Why are you ignoring the context of this

statement as reiterated again in the last post? Of course,

you are free to vent your feelings about your patient

relationships but I don't see you mentioning diet, nor, carbs

nor the endocrine system as it relates to CFS...not once.

Therefore, it really doesn't have anything to do with

my original post.

 

Kit