Question about Zhu Sha/Cinnabar and mercury

[Guest guest]

Does anyone here use Zhu Sha (cinnabar) in any herbal mixtures for

application on the skin? If so, are you taking any precautions for mercury

exposure, e.g. consuming chelating agents?

 

I have seen some mixtures with Zhu Sha that are taken orally. Why is it only

relatively recently that the concerns of mercury exposure have been

highlighted? Did people not get mercury poisoning in the old days? Was

something different in the past? Or was this danger always known among TCM

doctors?

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine, " Junya Ho " <junya.ho@u...> wrote:

> Does anyone here use Zhu Sha (cinnabar) in any herbal mixtures for

> application on the skin? If so, are you taking any precautions for mercury

> exposure, e.g. consuming chelating agents?

>

> I have seen some mixtures with Zhu Sha that are taken orally. Why is it only

> relatively recently that the concerns of mercury exposure have been

> highlighted? Did people not get mercury poisoning in the old days? Was

> something different in the past? Or was this danger always known among TCM

> doctors?

 

Processing, processing ,processing this is what makes the difference in toxicity

For a wonderful read and description of processing of mercury read:

" In search of the Medicine Buddha " By David Crow.

Can't say much more than that on this subject without going into opinion,

Michael

[Guest guest]

Hi Junya Ho,

I am not sure where you are located, but it is a moot point in the US,

since it is a banned. (use huang lian + long gu instead) Or, at least,

that is what we are taught in school these days. And, if I recall my herb

class

very well, I think that is also not used in China.

 

I am not sure if it is officially banned or voluntarily eliminated.

 

But I don't think it can be found. Do you have a source?!

>I have seen some mixtures with Zhu Sha that are taken orally.

Have you held this in your hand or just seen it on a page?

 

As far as the " old days " I think it falls into the same category

as other environmental toxins. A combination of ignorance and

keeping the truth from the public. I wouldn't include herbal doctors

in this category nor any other end users of mercury products. I

believe the dangers first showed up in mine workers. And, well.....

I don't know if I have to go into further detail regarding mine owners,

and profit versus the safety and health of their workers.

 

Kit

 

 

cinnabar: red mercuric sulfide compound found in nature, used in Chinese

alchemy and traditional medicine.

<http://www.angelfire.com/ns/pingyaozhuan/notes10.html>http://www.angelfire

..com/ns/pingyaozhuan/notes10.html

 

 

......10 additional ingredients, including the now banned substances

rhino horn and musk, the mercuric compound cinnabar.....

<http://www.itmonline.org/arts/cardfail.htm>http://www.itmonline.org/arts/c

ardfail.htm

 

 

 

- there have been recent reports of mercury toxicity from over the counter

patent medicines from Southeast Asia.

<http://www.public-health.uiowa.edu/fuortes/Text/mer_ars1.htm>http://www.pu

blic-health.uiowa.edu/fuortes/Text/mer_ars1.htm

 

 

 

At 11:25 AM 10/13/02 -0400, you wrote:

>

> Does anyone here use Zhu Sha (cinnabar) in any herbal mixtures for

> application on the skin? If so, are you taking any precautions for mercury

> exposure, e.g. consuming chelating agents?

>

> I have seen some mixtures with Zhu Sha that are taken orally. Why is it only

> relatively recently that the concerns of mercury exposure have been

> highlighted? Did people not get mercury poisoning in the old days? Was

> something different in the past? Or was this danger always known among TCM

> doctors?

>

>

[Guest guest]

> As far as the " old days " I think it falls into the same category

> as other environmental toxins. A combination of ignorance and

> keeping the truth from the public. I wouldn't include herbal

doctors

> in this category nor any other end users of mercury products. I

> believe the dangers first showed up in mine workers. And,

well.....

 

I was under the impression that even in older times, the dangers of

cinnabar were noted. I thought that it was considered to fall in the

category of " toxic " medicinals, along with other poisonous medicines?

 

Mbanu

[Guest guest]

.. I thought that it was considered to fall in the

category of " toxic " medicinals, along with other poisonous medicines?

 

Mbanu

 

 

 

Maybe so....but I don't think that the toxicity of mercuric sulfide was

known.

Which would be why it is not used today in China (according to my

recollection)

 

as opposed to previous times. I will double-check on it's use in China,

tomorrow, when I will see my Chinese herb instructor.

 

Kit

 

 

 

 

At 12:22 AM 10/14/02 +0000, you wrote:

>

> > As far as the " old days " I think it falls into the same category

> > as other environmental toxins.   A combination of ignorance and

> > keeping the truth from the public.   I wouldn't include herbal

> doctors

> > in this category nor any other end users of mercury products.   I

> > believe the dangers first showed up in mine workers.   And,

> well.....

>

> I was under the impression that even in older times, the dangers of

> cinnabar were noted. I thought that it was considered to fall in the

> category of " toxic " medicinals, along with other poisonous medicines?

>

> Mbanu

[Guest guest]

As far as I can tell, cinnabar is by definition HgS, and in nature, it is a

red crystalline mineral. I can imagine that processing can make the Hg less

bioavailable, but that is changing the compound into something else, and

that wouldn't be cinnabar anymore would it?

 

I wasn't able to find the book in the libraries that I have access to, but

the amazon page for this book mentions that there's some discussion about

the transmutation of Hg. Is that what you are referring to? The

transmutation of Hg into Ag?

 

 

> Chinese Traditional Medicine, " Junya Ho " <junya.ho@u...> wrote:

> > Does anyone here use Zhu Sha (cinnabar) in any herbal mixtures for

> > application on the skin? If so, are you taking any precautions for

mercury

> > exposure, e.g. consuming chelating agents?

> >

> > I have seen some mixtures with Zhu Sha that are taken orally. Why is it

only

> > relatively recently that the concerns of mercury exposure have been

> > highlighted? Did people not get mercury poisoning in the old days? Was

> > something different in the past? Or was this danger always known among

TCM

> > doctors?

>

> Processing, processing ,processing this is what makes the difference in

toxicity

> For a wonderful read and description of processing of mercury read:

> " In search of the Medicine Buddha " By David Crow.

> Can't say much more than that on this subject without going into opinion,

> Michael

>

>

>

>

>

> Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine-

> Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine-

> List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner

>

> Shortcut URL to this page:

> /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine

>

>

[Guest guest]

I actually bought some already, here in Toronto, and this was before I

realized that it was HgS. I did not have any problems getting it.

 

I don't know if it is restricted in Canada, but I don't know if its status

is really an issue in large Chinatowns. For example, a friend has bought

musk before (she xiang), and he did not know it was banned from trade

internationally.

 

As for oral use, see " The Warrior As Healer " by Thomas Richard Joiner, it

has a muscle strain healing wine that uses zhu sha (and she xiang,

incidentally). The author writes that these are formulas from established

Chinese sources. I suspect that zhu sha is included in many dit dat jow

formulas on the web.

 

 

 

-

" Kit " <kitcurtin

<Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Sunday, October 13, 2002 19:53

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Question about Zhu Sha/Cinnabar and mercury

 

 

>

> Hi Junya Ho,

> I am not sure where you are located, but it is a moot point in the US,

> since it is a banned. (use huang lian + long gu instead) Or, at least,

> that is what we are taught in school these days. And, if I recall my herb

> class

> very well, I think that is also not used in China.

>

> I am not sure if it is officially banned or voluntarily eliminated.

>

> But I don't think it can be found. Do you have a source?!

> >I have seen some mixtures with Zhu Sha that are taken orally.

> Have you held this in your hand or just seen it on a page?

>

> As far as the " old days " I think it falls into the same category

> as other environmental toxins. A combination of ignorance and

> keeping the truth from the public. I wouldn't include herbal doctors

> in this category nor any other end users of mercury products. I

> believe the dangers first showed up in mine workers. And, well.....

> I don't know if I have to go into further detail regarding mine owners,

> and profit versus the safety and health of their workers.

>

> Kit

>

>

> cinnabar: red mercuric sulfide compound found in nature, used in Chinese

> alchemy and traditional medicine.

>

<http://www.angelfire.com/ns/pingyaozhuan/notes10.html>http://www.angelfire

> .com/ns/pingyaozhuan/notes10.html

>

>

> .....10 additional ingredients, including the now banned substances

> rhino horn and musk, the mercuric compound cinnabar.....

>

<http://www.itmonline.org/arts/cardfail.htm>http://www.itmonline.org/arts/c

> ardfail.htm

>

>

>

> - there have been recent reports of mercury toxicity from over the counter

> patent medicines from Southeast Asia.

>

<http://www.public-health.uiowa.edu/fuortes/Text/mer_ars1.htm>http://www.pu

> blic-health.uiowa.edu/fuortes/Text/mer_ars1.htm

>

>

>

> At 11:25 AM 10/13/02 -0400, you wrote:

> >

> > Does anyone here use Zhu Sha (cinnabar) in any herbal mixtures for

> > application on the skin? If so, are you taking any precautions for

mercury

> > exposure, e.g. consuming chelating agents?

> >

> > I have seen some mixtures with Zhu Sha that are taken orally. Why is it

only

> > relatively recently that the concerns of mercury exposure have been

> > highlighted? Did people not get mercury poisoning in the old days? Was

> > something different in the past? Or was this danger always known among

TCM

> > doctors?

> >

> >

 

> Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine-

> Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine-

> List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner

>

> Shortcut URL to this page:

> /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm really curious to hear what your instructor says.

 

The whole HgS issue may not be so cut and dry. It is an inorganic salt that

is known to be stable and very insoluble. However metacinnabar ( " black " ) can

be made more soluble. (don't know how that would apply to cinnabar). Also,

aspects of diet are natural chelating agents (curciferous vegetables,

cilantro, garlic). I have heard an argument that one should look at Chinese

medicinals should be considered in the context of the person's diet, because

of interactions like this.

 

I found an overview article on an article that appeared in a Chinese Journal

" A Brief Discussion of the Adverse Effects of Chinese Medicinals & How to

Prevent Them " , that mentions zhu sha as an example of a medicinal that

should not be used for prolonged periods of time. This might suggest that

zhu sha is in current usage in China.

 

So in the end, I wonder if cinnabar is acting as a catalyst for something in

the formula, and remains as percipitate. I don't have the means to test this

however.

 

Example references:

HgS studies

http://cfpub.epa.gov/ncer_abstracts/index.cfm/fuseaction/display.abstractDet

ail/abstract/633/report/F

http://wwwbrr.cr.usgs.gov/projects/SW_corrosion/metacinnabar/

medicinal side effects

http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/download/articles/medicinals_sideeffects_jan0

1.html

what's banned in britain

http://www.rchm.co.uk/articles/restricted_list.html

chelation

http://www.web-light.nl/AMALGAM/EN/dmps.html

http://www.nihadc.com/metal_detoxification_continued.htm

 

 

-

" Kit " <kitcurtin

<Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Sunday, October 13, 2002 21:48

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: Question about Zhu Sha/Cinnabar and

mercury

 

 

> . I thought that it was considered to fall in the

> category of " toxic " medicinals, along with other poisonous medicines?

>

> Mbanu

>

>

>

> Maybe so....but I don't think that the toxicity of mercuric sulfide was

> known.

> Which would be why it is not used today in China (according to my

> recollection)

>

> as opposed to previous times. I will double-check on it's use in China,

> tomorrow, when I will see my Chinese herb instructor.

>

> Kit

>

>

>

>

> At 12:22 AM 10/14/02 +0000, you wrote:

> >

> > > As far as the " old days " I think it falls into the same category

> > > as other environmental toxins. A combination of ignorance and

> > > keeping the truth from the public. I wouldn't include herbal

> > doctors

> > > in this category nor any other end users of mercury products. I

> > > believe the dangers first showed up in mine workers. And,

> > well.....

> >

> > I was under the impression that even in older times, the dangers of

> > cinnabar were noted. I thought that it was considered to fall in the

> > category of " toxic " medicinals, along with other poisonous medicines?

> >

> > Mbanu

 

> Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine-

> Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine-

> List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner

>

> Shortcut URL to this page:

> /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine

>

>

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine, " Junya Ho " <junya.ho@u...> wrote:

> As far as I can tell, cinnabar is by definition HgS, and in nature, it is a

> red crystalline mineral. I can imagine that processing can make the Hg less

> bioavailable, but that is changing the compound into something else, and

> that wouldn't be cinnabar anymore would it?

>

> I wasn't able to find the book in the libraries that I have access to, but

> the amazon page for this book mentions that there's some discussion about

> the transmutation of Hg. Is that what you are referring to? The

> transmutation of Hg into Ag?

 

No, transmutation of Hg to Ag would be alchemy and not possible. Besides why not

just use

silver(Ag) if thats what you want to use. There are many forms of mercury

including mercuric

chloride, mercuric iodide, mercuric nitrate, mercuric sulfide, yellow mercuric

oxide, red mercuric

oxide, ammoniated mercury, mercurous chloride and mercurous acetate.Each varies

by a chemical

added or taken away . The book does give a description of mercury being

processed for medicinal use.

As you know many herbs are processed to reduce toxicity, or to change their

properties. This is not to

say in anyway that I believe mercury in any form is actually safe.

But, what do I know about these matters?Almost nothing.

You mentioned cinnabar and the book came to mind as an interesting reference.

I did a weekend seminar last year with the David Crow and found him as

interesting

as the book.

So, If you find the book it gives some different views of traditional medicine,

Good luck on your search for info on Zhu Sha,

 

Michael

 

Here are a few links to veiw.

http://www.calpoison.org/public/mercury.html

http://thinktwice.com/mercury.htm

 

 

 

" Junya Ho " <junya.ho@u...> wrote:

> > > Does anyone here use Zhu Sha (cinnabar) in any herbal mixtures for

> > > application on the skin? If so, are you taking any precautions for

> mercury

> > > exposure, e.g. consuming chelating agents?

> > >

> > > I have seen some mixtures with Zhu Sha that are taken orally. Why is it

> only

> > > relatively recently that the concerns of mercury exposure have been

> > > highlighted? Did people not get mercury poisoning in the old days? Was

> > > something different in the past? Or was this danger always known among

> TCM

> > > doctors?

> >

> > Processing, processing ,processing this is what makes the difference in

> toxicity

> > For a wonderful read and description of processing of mercury read:

> > " In search of the Medicine Buddha " By David Crow.

> > Can't say much more than that on this subject without going into opinion,

> > Michael

[Guest guest]

a medicinal that

should not be used for prolonged periods of time. This

might suggest that

zhu sha is in current usage in China.

 

 

Could be.....I've gotten two differing views on this from Chinese

instructors. But,

also, there are many medicinals that should not be used for long periods of

time. So, I'm not sure I'd go by that. Thanks for the links...check 'em

later...

got a test to study for first. Kit

[Guest guest]

I don't know if it is restricted in Canada, but I don't know if its

status

is really an issue in large Chinatowns. For example, a friend has

bought

musk before (she xiang), and he did not know it was banned from

trade

internationally.

 

 

I would believe this ..... not surprised if it goes on here, too. The

impression

I get from some instructors and visiting lecturers is that the regarding

Chinese

herbs, there will be some attempt to self-regulate before the FDA moves in

with

total bans....altho, probably will happen anyway.

 

Kit

[Guest guest]

http://nr.stic.gov.tw/ejournal/ProceedingB/v25n2/128-136.pdf

 

Effects of Methyl Mercury, Mercuric Sulfide and Cinnabar on

 

Active Avoidance Responses, Na+/K+-ATPase Activities and Tissue

 

Mercury Contents in Rats

 

This study compared the neurobehavioral toxicities of three mercurial

compounds: methyl mercury (MeHg) which

 

is soluble and organic, and mercuric sulfide (HgS) and cinnabar (naturally

occurring HgS), which are insoluble and

 

inorganic. Cinnabar, a Chinese mineral medicine, is still used as a sedative

in some Asian countries, but there is relatively

 

little toxicological information about it. These mercurial compounds were

administered intraperitoneally (MeHg, 2 mg/

 

kg) or orally (HgS and cinnabar, 1.0 g/kg) to male rats once every day for

13 consecutive days with assays conducted during

 

or after discontinuous administration for 1 h, 2, 8 and 33 weeks.

Neurotoxicity was assessed based on the active

 

avoid-ance response and locomotor activity. The results obtained showed that

MeHg and cinnabar prominently and

 

irreversibly caused a decrease in body weight, prolongation of latency for

escape from electric shock, a decrease in the

 

percentage for the conditioned avoidance response (CAR) to electric shock,

impairment of spontaneous locomotion and

 

inhibition of Na+/K+-ATPase activity of the cerebral cortex. In contrast,

HgS reversibly inhibited spontaneous locomotion

 

and Na+/K+-ATPase activity. It was noted that HgS significantly decreased

the latency of escape from electric shock

 

during the ad-ministration period, which lasted for 33 weeks after

discontinuous administration. In fact that pretreatment

 

with arecoline (a cholinergic receptor agonist) but not fipexide (a

dopaminergic receptor agonist) could significantly

 

shorten the prolonged latency for escape caused by MeHg and cinnabar,

suggested that the deficit in the active avoidance

 

response was perhaps, at least in part, mediated by the dysfunction of the

cholinergic rather than the dopaminergic system.

 

Determination of the Hg levels of the whole blood and cerebral cortex

revealed that the tissue mercury content was highly

 

correlated with the degree of neurobehavioral toxicity of these Hg

compounds. These findings suggest that insoluble HgS

 

and cinnabar can be absorbed from the G-I tract and distributed to the

brain. The possibility that contamination due to

 

other minerals in the cinnabar is responsible for the greater neurotoxic

effects compared to HgS is under investigation.

[Guest guest]

At 12:11 AM 10/14/02 -0400, you wrote:

>

> I'm really curious to hear what your instructor says.

 

 

My instructor said that in China zhu sha is only used in

patent formulas and that, like Michael said, the mercury toxicity

is dealt with thru processing. He said that no dietary recommendations

are made to deal with the toxicity. Only that long term use is

not recommended.

 

I didn't inquire about any disregard re: the danger or use of the

bulk herb despite it.

 

A fellow student thought that is was available in this country for

Feng Shui practices....dunno....?

 

Kit

[Guest guest]

> A fellow student thought that is was available in this country for

> Feng Shui practices....dunno....?

>

 

I can't think of anything related to Feng Shui that would need

cinnabar... maybe red paint? There is a nifty story on the

TCM " discovery " of cinnabar at

http://english.itcmedu.com/show/story_14.html (Has pictures and

everything. )

 

Mbanu

[Guest guest]

Hello,

 

 

I found some Zhu Sha in my school pharmacy yesterday, it's quite dense and

heavy. A fellow student told me that your not supposed to heat it,

otherwise the toxicity increases quite a bit. From what they told me, the

red cinnabar powder we know as zhu sha becomes molten mercury only if one

heats it. No wonder they thought it a magical substance in ancient times.

 

 

Blaise

 

 

 

 

 

 

>Kit <kitcurtin

>Chinese Traditional Medicine

>Chinese Traditional Medicine

>Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: Question about Zhu Sha/Cinnabar and

>mercury

>Mon, 14 Oct 2002 19:23:35 -0500

>

>At 12:11 AM 10/14/02 -0400, you wrote:

> >

> > I'm really curious to hear what your instructor says.

>

>

>My instructor said that in China zhu sha is only used in

>patent formulas and that, like Michael said, the mercury toxicity

>is dealt with thru processing. He said that no dietary recommendations

>are made to deal with the toxicity. Only that long term use is

>not recommended.

>

>I didn't inquire about any disregard re: the danger or use of the

>bulk herb despite it.

>

>A fellow student thought that is was available in this country for

>Feng Shui practices....dunno....?

>

>Kit

>

>

>

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine, " Junya Ho " <junya.ho@u...> wrote:

> Does anyone here use Zhu Sha (cinnabar) in any herbal mixtures for

> application on the skin? If so, are you taking any precautions for

mercury

> exposure, e.g. consuming chelating agents?

>

> I have seen some mixtures with Zhu Sha that are taken orally. Why is

it only

> relatively recently that the concerns of mercury exposure have been

> highlighted? Did people not get mercury poisoning in the old days?

Was

> something different in the past? Or was this danger always known

among TCM

> doctors?

 

I didn't follow this thread too closely, but I came across this

article tonight on a tai chi website.

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/magazine_articles/sex_and_drugs.html

 

It may be that mercury use is metaphorical; the article states that

the Dan of the Dan Tien is also called the cinnabar field. After

processing the cinnabar, they took the mercury and reprocessed it,

then ate it to give them energy and a long life. One mixes breath

(chi) in the dan tien to produce jing, the character for which the

author says represents birth and cinnabar. Again, this could be an

allegory like western alchemy that was searching for the method to

change lead into gold. That was also referred to as the Elixir of

Life, but it was a metaphysical goal.

 

sue