Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 > I'm glad you brought this up. My Beijjing trained friend simply said, " It's not that easy to find. " (Believe me, he has studied the texts involved.) My take is that Flaw's is on to something obviously, it works, but it may not be tied up as neatly theoritically as suggested by the Li Dong-yuan writings. Interestly, if I remember correctly, the Blue Poppy text doesn't mention " yin fire " as a term. I have assumed he has used what theory he knows to describe a package that fits many pictures. For example, it shows up in the Psychiatry Book also. I use the theory so I 'm not against it, I'm just not sure it's the same " yin fire " as taught in China. > > yin fire > > Recently some of my students told me that some of their other professors > have been suggesting that Bob Flaws's take on yin fire is basically made > up and has little or no antecedent in actual chinese literature. That > his thoughts are highly speculative and not well supported. I found > this peculiar because the latest BP online journal contains articles > from chinese language journals that use yin fire theory to treat complex > unusual illnesses, just as Flaws suggests. Any thoughts? > > -- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 , wrote: > > Interestly, if I remember correctly, the Blue Poppy text doesn't mention " yin fire " as a term. If you are talking about the pi wei lun, it does mention the term and describes it succinctly. However, like many ideas, I think it was developed more by followers than Li himself. However, it is well reflected in his formula composition which is what I use to gauge a physicians thought process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2001 Report Share Posted July 16, 2001 One of my Chinese teachers told me that the concept we are referring to in the west as Yin fire has been up for discussion in China for some time. He says that there are different interpretations of Li's theories being discussed in China but there may be a number of reasons it is not " mainstream " info: 1. There is no consensus regarding the intricacies of the theory itself 2. It is relatively " advanced " theory, and therefore accessible in detail clinically only to post-graduate students and above academically 3. Because of the two above points it may have never been " vogue " , or if it was, it was only vogue within certain circles at certain times 4. Perhaps it has only been applied to more complicated cases when other attempts have failed 5. Perhaps it is only clinically effective in such a small fraction of the patients in China, that it has always remained on the periphery of the option list 6. Perhaps it is one of the potentially thousands of theoritical artifacts waiting to be reinvestigated, retested, and reapplied- this one may have just found its way to the surface 7. Perhaps it is a failed theory that some practitioners really want to work Jason, I know what you mean when you basically say " you can't bullshit theory " . But just because current P.R.C. TCM isn't full of Yin huo theory doesn't make it invalid, or inauthentic. The acupuncture taught in P.R.C. TCM schools is quite different from acupuncture in Japan, for instance, and personally, I'm not yet convinced that one is better than the other, or more authentic than the other either. Maybe we all need to consider that for some people small formulas with small dosages are most appropriate, and others require large formulas with large doses. Maybe certain people will only respond to very shallow insertions with very fine needles, when others need deep penetration with thicker gauge needles. Maybe certain complex cases require more sophisticated analysis and attention than other cases. Yin fire theory may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread for the majority of Chinese practioners, but if it is rooted in the tradition of TCM, why shouldn't we at least test it out? Kip Roseman > [Original Message] > > > 7/16/01 11:47:56 AM > Re: Digest Number 646 > > > > > I'm glad you brought this up. > My Beijjing trained friend simply said, " It's not that easy to find. " (Believe me, he has studied the texts involved.) > My take is that Flaw's is on to something obviously, it works, but it may not be tied up as neatly theoritically as suggested by the Li Dong-yuan writings. Interestly, if I remember correctly, the Blue Poppy text doesn't mention " yin fire " as a term. I have assumed he has used > what theory he knows to describe a package that fits many pictures. For example, it shows up in the Psychiatry Book also. I use the theory so I 'm not against it, I'm just not sure it's the same " yin fire " as taught in China. > > > > > yin fire > > > > Recently some of my students told me that some of their other professors > > have been suggesting that Bob Flaws's take on yin fire is basically made > > up and has little or no antecedent in actual chinese literature. That > > his thoughts are highly speculative and not well supported. I found > > this peculiar because the latest BP online journal contains articles > > from chinese language journals that use yin fire theory to treat complex > > unusual illnesses, just as Flaws suggests. Any thoughts? > > > > -- > > > > > Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2001 Report Share Posted July 17, 2001 Kip wrote " Maybe we all need to consider that for some people small formulas with small dosages are most appropriate, and others require large formulas with large doses. Maybe certain people will only respond to very shallow insertions with very fine needles, when others need deep penetration with thicker gauge needles. Maybe certain complex cases require more sophisticated analysis and attention than other cases " And perhaps too, practitioners attract a certain style to themselves that is appropriately suited to them and they even attract patients that need what they have to offer. Eg Heiner uses lots of gu formulae .......is it because he understands it so well and his patients who need that pick up on that . Perhaps there are special people who require yin fire Tx from a handfull who may understand it, and in these cases it works. If someone on the list has used a yin fire formula successfully could you share the case history with us. Heiko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2001 Report Share Posted July 17, 2001 Joseph Roseman [kipr0823] Monday, July 16, 2001 10:00 PM Re: Digest Number 646 Maybe we all need to consider that for some people small formulas with small dosages are most appropriate, and others require large formulas with large doses. Maybe certain people will only respond to very shallow insertions with very fine needles, when others need deep penetration with thicker gauge needles. Maybe certain complex cases require more sophisticated analysis and attention than other cases. Yin fire theory may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread for the majority of Chinese practioners, but if it is rooted in the tradition of TCM, why shouldn't we at least test it out? -Definitely no argument there.... -JAson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 Dear Victoria, I have found a TCM Center near my home and have an appointment on Friday afternoon. The woman is a doctor of TCM, a licensed acupuncturist and has some other master of public nutrition degree from a university. Anyway, the receptionist said first you have about an hour consultant and usually you get a treatment afterward (acupuncture I assume). My insurance doesn't cover any of this, but the consultant is only $30, but treatments are $55.00. I am a little nervous about this but my daughter is off work that day and will go with me. The dizzy problem is a little better but can flare up with extra movement. I really don't want to pass out with needles in me. I will try to get as much information as I can and get a diagnosis from her. Any suggestions since this is my first time down this path? Take Care, Sharon Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, more faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2002 Report Share Posted October 9, 2002 > I have found a TCM Center near my home and have an appointment on Friday afternoon. Good! >The woman is a doctor of TCM, a licensed acupuncturist and has some other master of public nutrition degree from a university. Good. It sounds like she also will be able to handle dietary advice too. Let her know that you're also interested in TCM dietary advice as well as western. >Anyway, the receptionist said first you have about an hour consultant and usually you get a treatment afterward (acupuncture I assume). If it's a typical TCM consultation, she will do a tongue diagnosis, a pulse diagnosis, and ask a lot of questions. > The dizzy problem is a little better but can flare up with extra movement. I really don't want to pass out with needles in me. I will try to get as much information as I can and get a diagnosis from her. Any suggestions since this is my first time down this path? Share these concerns with her and make sure she knows about the time that you passed out after a chiropractor treatment and how extremely sensitive your neck area is. I'm not an acupuncturist so acupuncturists on this list will have to correct me if I am wrong, but I believe there are points they can use on other parts of the body. If you get a treatment, the needles should be disposible. They are used once and thrown away. Be sure to have her write down your TCM diagnosis, any acupoints used, and any herbs she may prescribe. You won't be able to remember everything she says, especially since this is a brand new experience to you. So ask her to write it down. Many TCM professionals are used to clients who don't want to know their TCM diagnosis or any of that other " mumbo jumbo " . They just know that Joe Blow or a friend of a friend got help, and they've decided to give acupuncture a try. Some people just try it because it's a fad (in their part of the country), and don't want the details. Many TCM healers are pleased when they get a client who wants to know the TCM diagnosis and the points and herbs used. Tell her that you're starting to learn about TCM and are really interested in understanding more. Be sure to ask her what you can do at home to help yourself via diet, massage, acupressure, or anything else. Let me know what happens. Glad you located a healer in your area. Be sure to get that diagnosis so you can research it further. Sometimes reading on ones own turns up information that the healer doesn't know about. No one healer can know everything, and the best healers realize this and encouraged interested clients to learn more. Victoria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 10, 2002 Report Share Posted October 10, 2002 > Once I began to discover acupoints that got rid of these > headaches, I discovered if one had progressed to the point of the > extreme nausea, points on the Bladder and Small Intestine meridians, > points on the Gall Bladder meridian, and points on the Stomach > meridian could not stop the nausea (though my head felt better). I > needed to work points on the Liver channel. Victoria, I'll add a view here. This supports the connection between headaches, the hypothalamus and the jueyin channel of Lv & Pc. Lv & Pc are one channel going from the foot to the hand. Points on the Lv channel will balance Pc and vice versa. In the meridian theory I work with, Lv is engendered by both SJ and Pc, so using points on the Lv channel 'unburden' stress in the SJ or Pc. So assuming your headache stress was a stagnation in the SJ & Pc and their connection to hypothalamus, then working Lv points would help. Pc is related to nausea in this way. In the theory I work with, Bladder, Stomach and Gall Bladder don't 'unburden' SJ and Pc stress in the same way. So what you say makes sense to me. - Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 In a message dated 10/11/02 5:08:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, victoria_dragon writes: It took longer for Lv 8 to get rid of the nausea. I had to press and massage it for several minutes before the nausea completely abated Victoria, Try P-6 for nausea, I think you might find fast relief. One of the action for P-6 it harmonises the stomach and alleviates nausea. Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 11, 2002 Report Share Posted October 11, 2002 > Victoria, I'll add a view here. This supports the connection between headaches, the hypothalamus and the jueyin channel of Lv & Pc. Lv & Pc are one channel going from the foot to the hand. Points on the Lv channel will balance Pc and vice versa. > In the meridian theory I work with, Lv is engendered by both SJ and Pc, so using points on the Lv channel 'unburden' stress in the SJ or Pc. So assuming your headache stress was a stagnation in the SJ & Pc and their connection to hypothalamus, then working Lv points would help. Pc is related to nausea in this way. In the theory I work with, Bladder, Stomach and Gall Bladder don't 'unburden' SJ and Pc > stress in the same way. So what you say makes sense to me. - Ed Thanks, Ed. As long as it is just a headache, points on the Bladder and Small Intestine meridians along with heat will get rid of the headache. (For new readers: My headaches were due to Wind Cold invading the TaiYang (Bladder and Small Intestine meridians. Headaches can arise from different Roots, and the treatment will be different.) It was when one had progressed to extreme nausea, being bothered by light, not being able to stand moving my head the slightest because the intense pain got worse, that points on the Liver channel were required. I tried Lv 3, but that didn't do much. Lv 8 did the trick. When it's just a headache, the points on the Bladder and Small Intestine meridians work very quickly most of the time. When I also put a heating pad over the area of the points, the headache goes away in seconds. I learned that I have to keep the heating pads over the areas for a few minutes because if I'm exposed to the cool air too soon, the headache comes back. It took longer for Lv 8 to get rid of the nausea. I had to press and massage it for several minutes before the nausea completely abated. I never experimented with applying heat to it. Thankfully, that was my last severe headache with severe nausea. The regular working of the Bladder and Small Intestines points (preventive maintenance <G>) also reduced the tendency to the headaches. I go for months now without one threatening. I've had a few threaten lately because the weather is turning noticeably cooler. But that's typical for me in the fall. After reading your posts and after reading the brief amount Maciocia has on Liver 8, I think I should start regularly working this point for a while. The headaches may be gone, but other problems remain. Any other suggestions on points to try. I'm using acupressure instead of acupuncture. Thanks, Victoria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 > Try P-6 for nausea, I think you might find fast relief. > One of the action for P-6 it harmonises the stomach and alleviates nausea. Thanks, Stan, but Pericardium 6 didn't work in that case. I don't know why. Victoria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 Many TCM healers are pleased when they get a client who > wants to know the TCM diagnosis and the points and herbs used. Tell > her that you're starting to learn about TCM and are really interested > in understanding more. I can agree with this. The more I ask, the more they tell me and also the more they do. When i first started treatment, they gave me a basic rundown of why and how acupuncture works (ie, blocked meridans, but thats it) as I got more and more into it, I became more and more curious and started asking hows and whys and they have happily responded. AS a result, I understand a lot more about my injury adn the rest of my body as well, as well as how I can heal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2002 Report Share Posted October 12, 2002 Is this point in the inside of your arm, just above the wrist? > > Try P-6 for nausea, I think you might find fast relief. > > One of the action for P-6 it harmonises the stomach and alleviates > nausea. > > Thanks, Stan, but Pericardium 6 didn't work in that case. I don't > know why. > > Victoria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Hi Anna The way I treat this is to identify which meridians are associated with the phantom leg pain pain, i.e.ask him where the pain goes and then treat the junction and Xi-cleft points of those meridians on the other leg. Regards Susie > Message: 10 > Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:00:16 -0700 (PDT) > Anna Kozlowska <aniakozlowska1 > Pain of the amputated leg. > > Hello everybody. I have a patient who lost his leg about 20 years ago. Now he is having " imaginary pain " in non existing leg. Overall condition of this patient is Ki and Liv Yin Deficiency. Anyone has an experience to treat similar condition? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 Dear All ! I have had some good experience treating adolescents' orthpoedic disorders with Yoga, Taiji & Qigong exercises. I came across this option when I was diagnosed with LCH (Langerhans cell histiocytosis ) affecting the spine in the thorax area. The only treatment was isometric muscle trainig and corsett. I added (secretly) Taiji , Qi gong and other stuff. Everything went well (15 years so far), which made me believe these bodyarts may have made an impact. No orthopedic doctor has agreed so far, but there hasn't been any research neither, so I would say all options are still open. Especially the movements in the play of the five animals and in Yang Taiji help a lot develop coordination, strenghten scelet muscles and of course enhance the flow of the Qi, what else than Qi can reach our bone structure effectively where there are no other blood vessels or healthy body liquids? Another his self focus, accompanying the movement of the Qi with the mind and repairing , cleaning the affected areas in the body( can imagine using little brushes , white bone marrow building up new substance etc.) During my work, I found out that this can help especially children and teens, because they easily can picture these things ( of course only after confirming with parents). According to CM it totally makes sense, in western medicine it may come close to psychological techniques. I would like to know if there are others who have experience in working with children using Qi gong , Yoga or other ways. Cheers Steve Get your free @.hk address at Mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 Hi Steve, > I would like to know if there are others who have experience in working with children using Qi gong , Yoga or other ways. > > Cheers Steve > Your experiences dovetail my own. My son had inherited problems that were cleared with a combination of qigong and bodywork. He has 17 years experience with Chinese martial arts which has made him very healthy. I know of other similar situations where parents were very supportive and children participated very happily in alternative approaches as you describe. It appears that the support of knowledgeable parents and doctors is the key to progress. The children you describe are very fortunate to have you as their practitioner. As you describe it, it is all commonsense, which is really what CM is all about - and knowledge of all of these CM modalities seems to lead to better results. Thank you for the wonderful story. Regards, Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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