Guest guest Posted December 24, 2001 Report Share Posted December 24, 2001 I'm not too sure if the doctor diagnosed me correctly but my symptoms are: tongue pale with thin white coating with teethmarks on the sides, spotting mid-cycle and also spotting for 8-9 days before period is due, menstrual blood dark purple with clots, constant fatigue, irritability, always have cold hands and feet, low libido, infertility. Does this sound only like liver qi stagnation? Could this also be kidney yang deficiency? Shan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2001 Report Share Posted December 26, 2001 >I'm not too sure if the doctor diagnosed me correctly but my >symptoms are: tongue pale with thin white coating with teethmarks on >the sides, spotting mid-cycle and also spotting for 8-9 days before >period is due, menstrual blood dark purple with clots, constant >fatigue, irritability, always have cold hands and feet, low libido, >infertility. Does this sound only like liver qi stagnation? Could >this also be kidney yang deficiency? No one can diagnose via email, BUT these can be symptoms of Kidney Yang Deficiency. Kidney Yang Deficiency needs to be ruled in or out. Do a search in the message group for Kidney Yang Deficiency for more details. IF Kidney Yang Deficiency is present, this needs to be addressed. >I live in a small city where there is only one Chinese Medical doctor. I went to see him after trying to get pregnant for about four years without success. I explained my situation where I'm always cold, have constant fatigue, have spotting for a few days mid- cycle and I also have a week of premenstrual bleeding. Also I was diagnosed with endometriosis (mild) which was lasered off during a laparoscopy. >He put me on the Bupleurum & Dong Quai formula to be taken all cycle since he diagnosed me with liver qi stagnation. This is not a formula for all cycle. It's not necessarily a formula for PMS. It can be for SOME cases of PMS, but not all. In order to understand why this formula is not suitable for all cases of menstrual problems and when it is, only for certain phases of the cycle, it's important to look at the menstrual cycle from a TCM standpoint. There are four phases to the menstrual cycle: Blood, Yin, Yang, and Qi. The Root(s)of the problems - and thus the treatment and timing of the treatment - will vary according to what phase of the cycle the woman is having problems in. Phase 1 begins the day the menstrual bleeding stops. This is the Yin part of the cycle. " Because blood is created, at least in part out of kidney essence and because, compared to yang qi, essence is a ty0e of yin substance, during phase one, the body busies itself with making more yin and blood to replenish that which was discharged. Therefore, in Chinese gynecology, we say that phase one corresponds to yin and the emphasis in the body is on replenishing yin blood. " (Bob Flaws, Curing PMS Naturally with Chinese Medicine, p.35.) Phase 2 is the days around ovulation. This is the Yang stage. " However, for ovulation to occur, yin must trnasform into yang. This transformation of yin into yang ocrresponds to the rise in basal body temperature which occurs after ovulation. If there is insuffiecient yin, it cannot transform into yang. Conversely, if there is insufficient yang, it cannot transform yin. In addition, if either the qi and blood are not flowing freely, this transformation may also be impeded. " (Flaws, p. 36.) My note: Two functions of Yang are to warm and activate. Hypoglandular states - including hypothyroidism - are not uncommon in people who are Yang Deficient. There simply is not enough Yang to warm and activate the body sufficiently. Hypothyroidism can be a factor in infertility as well as various menstrual problems. The third phase is the pre-menstrual phase, the Qi phase. " For things to go as they should in the woman's body, yang qi must stay strong enough long enough and the qi must flow freely and in the right directions. Many of the signs and symptoms of PMS have to do with the yang qi not being strong enough or the qi (and therefore the blood) not flowing freely. " (Flaws, p. 36.) That part about the Yang Qi needing to stay strong enough long enough is important. Qi Stagnation is NOT the only possible cause of premenstrual problems. Insufficient Yang and Qi Stagnation can occur separately without the other, or, together. The menses is the 4th. phase, the Blood part of the cycle. There has to be sufficient blood for menses to occur. One of the possible causes of lack of a period is Blood Deficiency. (It's not the only one.) A formula which addresses Qi Stagnation is only going to help problems which come from Qi Stagnation. It's not going to do anything to help Yang Deficiency or Yin Deficiency. Furthermore, there are different Roots of Qi Stagnation. Because there are different causes of Qi Stagnation, different formulas are called for in different cases. The Bupleurum & Dong Quai formala, aka Xiao Yao San, aka " Rambling Powder " is for a very specific set of symptoms and signs, for a very specific clinical picture. From another discussion group: " Giovanni explained that " Xiao Yao San is for liver qi stagnation but is for only one particular type of liver qi stagnation. Xiao Yao San is for liver qi stagnation occurring against a back ground of liver blood deficiency and some spleen qi deficiency. That's what Dang Gui and Bai Shao are doing in there. They are nourishing liver blood. By nourishing liver blood you harmonise the liver. So it's for that type of liver qi stagnation against a back ground of liver blood deficiency. That is why it is so good for women. " " Giovanni mentioned he would rather use Yue Ju Wan when his patient has Liver qi stagnation with some heat and without liver blood deficiency. He mentioned it comes from the ancient perscription Zhu Dan Xi. " There are many cases in which people are using Xiao Yao San where our amazing author and practitioner Giovanni, would use Yue Ju Wan or Ban Xia Ho Po Tang, " because the stagnation is more in the lungs and heart rather than the liver. " " http://208.233.90.104/_studdisc3/00000010.htm Emphasis: " Xiao Yao San is for liver qi stagnation occurring against a back ground of liver blood deficiency and some spleen qi deficiency. " There are a number of things which can cause Qi to Stagnate. One of these is Liver Blood Deficiency and Blood Stasis. Blood Stasis can trigger Qi Stagnation if left untreated - just as Qi Stagnation can result in Blood Stasis is untreated. " Indications: Hypochondriac pain, headache, vertigo, a bitter taste in the mouth, dry mouth and throat, fatifue, reduced appetite, pale-red tongue, and a wiry, dificient pulse. There may also be alternating fever and chills, and irregular menstruation or distended breasts. " This is Liver constraint with blood deficiency. The relationship between the Liver and Spleen is very close. When the Liver qi is constrained its control over the Spleen becomes excessive, resulting in Spleen deficiency. This is known as transverse rebellion of Liver qi violating the Spleen Deficiency of the Spleen, whose function is to transform nutrients into blood and qi, often results in blood deficiency. Consversely, blood deficiency (regardless of origin) can lead to Liver constraint. The Liver, a yin organ which stores blood, depends upon the yang to carry out its spreading function. But if the supply of liver blood is insufficient, a surplus of qi may ensue, which is known as constrained Liver qi. " (Dan Bensky & Randall Barolet, Chinese Herbal Medicine Formulas & Strategies, p. 147.) What they're talking about here is the " Victor-Vanquished " 5 Elements relationship between Wood (Liver) and Earth (Spleen). Or, as Maciocia puts it, " Liver Overacting on Spleen " . Bupleurum & Dong Quai formula, aka Xiao Yao San, aka " Rambling Powder " is for cases where Liver Blood Deficiency has resulted in Liver Qi Stagnation and " Liver Invading Spleen " , thus triggering some mild Qi Deficiency because the Spleen isn't up to extracting Qi from food and forming Qi in the body. Xiao Yao San works great for this. But it leaves a lot to be desired and can even hurt in some situations. For example, if the primary problems are Qi Deficiency and Spleen Deficiency. One of the functions of Qi - in particular Spleen Qi - is to hold blood in vessels. Spleen Not Controlling Blood is a Spleen Qi Deficiency pattern. The symptoms are " Any of the Spleen-Qi deficiency manifeswtations, pulse: purpura, blood spots under the skin, blood in the urine or stools, menorrhagia or metrorrhagia, sallow complexxtion and shortness of breath. " The tongue will be pale and the pulse fine. " All these symptoms are due to the impairment of the Spleen funciton of controlling Blood. When Spleen-Qi is deficient, it cannot hold the blood in the vessels and bleeding appears from various sources, such as under the skin, in the stools or urine or from the uterus. This is bleeding of Deficient nature, as opposed to the bleeding from Heat in the Blood which is of an Excess nature. " (Maciocia, Foundations, p. 244.) Many of the herbs and formulas that move Qi also dissipate Qi. If the primary problem is Liver Qi Stagnation due to Liver Blood Deficiency and the Spleen Qi is not Deficient or very mildly so, Xiao Yao San is a good formula. BUT, if Spleen Qi Deficiency is marked, Xiao Yao San can make Spleen Qi Deficiency (and bleeding) worse. There are other things that can cause Qi to Stagnate. Like Cold. The Cold can be Exterior Excess Cold (cold temperature in the environment) that has invaded to the Interior, or, it can be Deficiency Cold (aka Yang Deficiency). One of the functions of Yang is to warm the body. Note: In cases of Exterior Excess Cold, the uterus is vulnerable to direct invasion by Exterior Cold. ( " The Stomach is one of three organs (with Intestines and Uterus) that can be attacked by exterior Cold directly, by-passing the exterior layers of the body. " Maciocia, p. 270.) Note: Long-time Kidney Yang Deficiency will increase a person's vulnerability to Exterior Cold. No amount of Qi Moving herbs is going to get Qi moving properly in cases where the Stagnation is due to Cold. The Cold has to be expelled and the Interior warmed. This formula is not warm enough for someone with Interior Cold. It could worsen Interior Cold. Spinal misalignment can affect Qi flow adversely. Like in the case of an injury to the back (though not restricted to back injuries). >The formula took away my menstrual cramps but did absolutely nothing for the spotting and infertility. Actually it made my spotting worse. Besides the possibility of Spleen Unable to Control Blood increasing the bleeding due to dissipation of Qi, a property of Dong Quai needs to be considered: " Dong quai may interact with the blood-thinning drug Coumadin (warfarin), increasing the risk of bleeding, according to one case report.14 Dong quai might also conceivably interact with other blood-thinning drugs, such as heparin, aspirin, and Trental (pentoxifylline). Additionally, dong quai could conceivably interact with natural products with blood-thinning properties, such as garlic, ginkgo, or high-dose vitamin E. " http://www.healingpeople.com/hp_html/primapub/pg000448.htm >After four months of being on this formula I couldn't handle the bleeding anymore but he refused to change the formula so I stopped going to see him. Proper TCM treatment involves monitoring the client regularly for changes and CHANGING TREATMENT as needed. >I truly believe in Chinese Herbal Healing but this doctor told me " Maybe this type of bleeding is normal for you " . This type of bleeding is NOT normal. It is a sign that something is wrong. >Even though I'm not a herbalist I do disagree with his statement. Since there are no other doctors in my area I don't know what to do. I really don't feel comfortable seeing him again but I would still love to pursue chinese herbal medicine. TCM healers - like allopathic doctors - have varying general levels of skill, knowledge, training, and wisdom. Also, like allopathic doctors, TCM healers are better at and more knowledgeable about some things than others. For example some TCM healers specialize in TCM gynecology. Some may know more about Hot conditions than Cold conditions or vice versa. >I know there are a few companies that sell herbal formulas and you could have an over-the- phone consult with their herbalist. What are your recommendations on this? Since this seems to be my only option and since western medicine has failed to help me, it seems that this may be my only option. I've read both of Bob Flaw's books Endometriosis, Infertility and Traditional and also Fulfilling the Essence. Reading both of these books I believe that the Chinese doctor I was seeing could have done alot more to help me. Have you cautiously tried using some of the information contained in the Flaws' books. I know the Curing PMS Naturally book has suggestions on various formulas and other things. Or, you may consider a trip to a distant city for a consultation with another healer. You could make a mini-holiday out of the trip. See the doctor, take in some sights, spend the night, and relax. *************** For students reading this post: The main things to remember are that Qi Stagnation can have different causes, and the herbs and formula (or other treatment) for resolving Qi Stagnation will need to be chosen accordingly. There are no " one size fits all cases of Qi Stagnation " formulas or selection of acupoints. Also, in TCM gynocology, the menstrual cycle is viewed as having 4 phases: Yin, Yang, Qi, and Blood. Also, TCM healers should re-evaluate frequently and change treatment as needed. The correct and best treatment today seldom is the best or even the proper treatment a month from today. Victoria _______________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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