8 Extrordinary Vessels and Trigrams Relationship

[Guest guest]

Lee:

 

One group of associations:

> Governing Vessel (Du Mai) Qian

> Conception Vessel (Ren Mai) Kan

> Thrusting Vessel (Chong Mai) Xun

> Girdle Vessel (Dai Mai) Li

> Yang Heel Vessel (Yangqiao Mai) Gen

> Yin Heel Vessel (Yinqiao Mai) Zhen

> Yang Linking Vessel (Yangwei Mai) Dui

> Yin Linking Vessel (Yinwei Mai) Kun

 

But you'll probably find different associations, too. So what are you

going to do with them?

 

Jim Ramholz

 

 

 

 

James Ramholz

Silk Road Acupuncture Center

112 E. Laurel

Fort Collins, CO 80524-3029

(970) 482-5900 Voice

(970) 482-4681 Fax

(303) 522-3348 Cell

[Guest guest]

Lee

 

Where do you get the idea that only the du, ren and chong are the

important ones in treatment?

 

Can any one share with the group a case history , using herbs with the 8

extras .....maybe Will Morris?

 

Heiko

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/12/01 1:26:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, heiko writes:

 

 

Can any one share with the group a case history , using herbs with the 8

extras .....maybe Will Morris?

 

 

 

As mentioned before, the primary sources on 8 extras and herbs are Ye Tianshi and Li Zhishen. Ye practiced in the Yangze River source region and was named after that region and style of practice. He was very well respected as a great doctor during his lifetime in the late 1600s early 1700s. Typically he would use at most 6-7 herbs and the doses could be in the fen range (.5) grams. Or, he could go up to 6-9 grams. He certainly didn't practice in the Shanghai style using large doses. Ye's use of 8 XTree herbs centered mostly on gynecological concerns.

 

I'll summarize a few cases the points in common are:

 

1. radial displacement of the distal (cun) pulse

2. ulnar displacement of the proximal (chi) pulse (Yang Wei pulse)

3. emotional problems related to the external environment and the arena of

secondary relationships, occasionally primary ones

4. tender points along the pathway of the Yang Wei

5. deficiency of Yang and or disharmony of Ying and Wei

 

The formula portion common to each case is Gui Zhi Tang. Upon taking the formula the displacement of the pulse corrects, the Yang portion is invigorated. Each of these cases came back saying the formula was remarkable in helping.

 

Heiko, I rarely prescribe strictly on an 8 XTree herb basis. I usually pull appropriate herbs from the 8 XTree section when relevant. A common practice is to include Chuan Niu Xi when a Yin Qiao or Yang Qiao is present. This pattern will respond quickly to acupuncture in the treatment room only to return on the next visit. Including herbs from those categories sustain the treatment better. This is especially true of the Yang Qiao which is a pulse that is commensurate with Yin Fire (Full above and weak below). Here the use of Chuan Niu Xi is very helpful, the distinction is this: I will focus on Dong Yuan style herbs for Yin fire rather than more herbs that focus on the Kidney and the musculoskeletal system. How do you know whether it is Yin Fire or the Yang Qiao? The questions and concomitants clear that.

 

Will

[Guest guest]

Which of the 8 Vessels relates to which of the Trigrams?

 

I know that each trigram relates to one of the five elements, does the same go for the Vessels?

 

If each of the 8 vessels relates to a trigram, why are some considered more important than others? In other words, why are only 3 of them (ie, du mai, ren mai, and chong mai) used more often than the others? Aren't all the vessels/trigams equally important?

 

 

Governing Vessel (Du Mai)

 

Conception Vessel (Ren Mai)

Thrusting Vessel (Chong Mai)

Girdle Vessel (Dai Mai)

Yang Heel Vessel (Yangqiao Mai)

Yin Heel Vessel (Yinqiao Mai)

Yang Linking Vessel (Yangwei Mai)

Yin Linking Vessel (Yinwei Mai).

[Guest guest]

Hello Lee and Jim,

 

, jramholz wrote:

Here are the gua associations for 2 methods of chronoacupuncture:

 

In Feiteng Bafa:

Chong qian

Yinwei gen

Dai kan

Yangwei zhen

Du xun

Yangqiao kun

Ren li

Yinqiao dui

 

In Linggui Bafa:

Chong qian

Yinwei gen

Dai xun

Yangwei zhen

Du dui

Yangqiao kan

Ren li

Yinqiao kun

 

If anyone understands the logic of this, I would like to hear it. I

have really tried to analyze both sets of info, but so far cannot come

up with an answer. The Chinese teachers I have asked either don't

know, or have basically said that in the old days, when no one ate

twinkies nor watched tv, they could see things that we cannot see.

(Probably quite true...)

 

Jim, what is the reference and purpose for this list?

 

> One group of associations:

> > Governing Vessel (Du Mai) Qian

> > Conception Vessel (Ren Mai) Kan

> > Thrusting Vessel (Chong Mai) Xun

> > Girdle Vessel (Dai Mai) Li

> > Yang Heel Vessel (Yangqiao Mai) Gen

> > Yin Heel Vessel (Yinqiao Mai) Zhen

> > Yang Linking Vessel (Yangwei Mai) Dui

> > Yin Linking Vessel (Yinwei Mai) Kun

 

Lorraine

[Guest guest]

>Which of the 8 Vessels relates to which of the Trigrams?

>

>I know that each trigram relates to one of the five elements, does the same

>go for the Vessels?

>

>If each of the 8 vessels relates to a trigram, why are some considered more

>important than others? In other words, why are only 3 of them (ie, du mai,

>ren mai, and chong mai) used more often than the others? Aren't all the

>vessels/trigams equally important?

 

First, some background info for those new to TCM:

 

There are 12 main meridians/ channels. These are the Liver, Gall Bladder,

Heart, Small Intestine, Pericardium, Triple Heater, Spleen, Stomach, Lungs,

Large Intestine, Kidneys, and Bladder.

 

In addition, there are 8 " extraordinary meridians " . These are:

 

>Governing Vessel (Du Mai)

>Conception Vessel (Ren Mai)

>Thrusting Vessel (Chong Mai)

>Girdle Vessel (Dai Mai)

>Yang Heel Vessel (Yangqiao Mai)

>Yin Heel Vessel (Yinqiao Mai)

>Yang Linking Vessel (Yangwei Mai)

>Yin Linking Vessel (Yinwei Mai).

 

The Thrusting Vessel also is known as the Penetrating Vessel in some texts.

 

With the exception of the Governing Vessel and the Conception Vessel (which

run up the midline of the back of the body and the front of the body), the

extraordinary vessels have no acupoints specific to them. They are pathways

of Qi flow separate from the main meridians, and they touch acupoints on

various main meridians. For example, part of the course of the Penetrating

Vessel closely follows the path of the Kidney meridian. But some like the

Girdle Vessel follow completely different pathways. (The Girdle Vessel is

the only one with a horizonal flow of Qi. In some texts it's called the

Belt meridian.)

 

One of the main function of the extraordinary vessels is they act a lot like

a flood control/ irrigation system. If there is too much Qi blocked in one

of the main meridians, it can move into one of the EV. If there is too

little Qi in a main meridian, some can be provided by one of the EVs.

 

Of the 8 EV, 3 have more uses in healing than the others. These are the

Conception Vessel, the Governor Vessel, and the Penetrating (aka Thrusting)

Vessel.

 

In addition to acting as a type of flood control/ resevoir system, the 8 EV

also circulate Jing (Essence) around the body. The 8 EV all get their

energy from the Kidneys and they all contain Essence. (Maciocia,

Foundations, p. 355).

 

The 3rd thing they do is to circulate Defensive (Wei) Qi. This is the Qi

that circulates over the surface of the body and helps people to be

resistent to weather changes, Pernicious Evils (Cold, Heat, Wind, Dampness,

and Dryness), infecitons, and allergens. Actually, only the Penetrating,

Conception, and Governing Vessels do this. This is part of the reason why

these 3 get mentioned more than the other EVs.

 

The fourth thing is that the Conception and Penetrating Vessels control the

7 and 8 year cycles in the lives of females and males.

 

All of the EVs originate from the Kidneys, but the Conception, Governing,

and Penetrating Vessels originate directly from the Kidneys. These 3 are the

source of the other 5.

 

The Conception, Governor, and Penetrating Vessels all start in the Kidneys.

From there they flow down to the perineum (CV 1) and then branch out along

different pathways. " They, more than the other extraordinary vessels, can

be used in clinical practice to affect the patient's energy at a deep

constitutional level. " (Maciocia, p. 356)

 

The Conception Vessel is the " Sea of the Yin channels " . If someone has some

major Yin problems affecting the entire body, the Conception channel can

affect Yin all over the body. This merdian gets used a lot in menopausal

problems (which often are Yin Deficiency problems).

 

The Governor Vessel is the " Sea of Yang channels. " As such, Yang all over

the body can be affected by using points on it. It gets used a lot in

chronic lower backache due to Kidney Deficiency.

 

The Penetrating Vessel branches out into a network of smaller vessels and

plays a major role in circulating Protective Qi over the abdomen and chest.

For this reason it's called " The Sea of the 12 channels. "

 

Maciocia gives 4 main functions and clinical uses of the Penetrating Vessel:

1. Rebellious Qi and to move Qi and Blood when they stagnate in the chest

and abdomen. 2. Only with the Conception Vessel, the Penetrating Vessel

nourishes the uterus and menstruation and nourishes Blood. (Maciocia, p.

363) Don't overlook this vessel when it comes to treating menstrual

problems, problems in the uterus, and Blood. 3. The Penetrating Vessel is

the link between the Pre-Heaven and Post-Heaven Qi, and as such " can be used

in all cases of weak constitution with digestive symptoms, such as poor

appetite, abdominal distension and poor assimilation of food. " (p. 363) 4.

It also influences the Heart and can be used to move Blood through the Heart

and treat pain and feelings of oppression in the chest.

 

From personal experience I want to say never underestimate the importance of

the Penetrating Vessel in treating Cold congestion in the lower abdomen,

especially in the Uterus, and getting Qi moving in the area like it needs

to. Actually it can be in about any problem affecting the Uterus.

 

The book Acuprssure WAy of Health: Jin Shin Do by Iona Marsaa Teeguarden is

one source of info on using the 8 EVs in healing.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

>Which of the 8 Vessels relates to which of the Trigrams?

>

>I know that each trigram relates to one of the five elements, does the same

>go for the Vessels?

 

I'm not aware of any association between the Trigrams and the 8 EVs.

Someone else may be.

 

For those new to Chinese studies, a Trigram is a symbol made up of 3 lines.

Each of the lines is either broken or solid. (Think of this as the earliest

binary number system. Modern computers use binary language in a system of

0's and 1's or off/on switch positions.)

 

Each of the Trigrams has a name. Three solid lines is called Heaven, and 3

broken lines is called Earth. Two broken lines over a solid line is

Thunder, and a solid line over two broken lines is Mountain. These are

symbolic representations of certain aspects of energy and energy flow.

Heaven is associated with inspiration, power, aggressiveness, completeness,

and Coldness. It's also associated with early winter and the northwest.

Also with Metal. There are 8 Trigrams.

 

Put two of these Trigrams together, and they form a Hexagram (having 6

lines, hexa means 6 just like tri means 3). These are 64 possible

hexagrams, and these make up the 64 Hexagrams of the I Ching, the Book of

Changes. The I Ching is a Chinese oracle system but also a way of

presenting philosophical ideas. When my husband was in college, he had to

purchase a pack of I Ching cards as part of a course on Chinese philosophy.

 

The Trigrams, because of their association with directions (North, South,

East, Northwest, etc.) also get used in Feng Shui. A very simplified (and

incomplete) way to think of Feng Shui is as Chinese interior decorating.

Actually it's the art of harmonious placement in relationship to the greater

environment and time. Certain directions - including the way a home sits and

faces - are harmonious and " lucky " for certain individuals, and some are

not. In other words, the energy flow and quality of the energy in one home

may match and smoothly blend with and support that of one individual but

clash with that of another and keep the second on edge and feeling like

s/he's fighting a constant uphill battle.

 

Trigrams also get used in Chinese astrology. For example, everyone has a

personal Trigram based on the year the person was born. Some Trigrams (and

people) mesh harmoniously and some clash. For example, people whose personal

Trigrams belong to the East group of Trigrams tend to be simpatico and have

rapport with each other whereas there's not as much innate common ground

with someone whose personal Trigram belongs to the West group. There

personal energies don't mesh and in some cases clash.

 

 

Trigrams and Hexagrams don't get used very much in . They

do some in some branches, but by and large, they're not that important. The

symbol of the Elements (Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water) get used a lot

more than the Trigrams and Hexagrams, and can give an extra edge in analysis

of health problems and in coming up with the most effective treatment

strategies. For those new to TCM, the Elements are symbolic of different

aspects of energy. For example, Wood is associated with spring, and this is

a time of year in which the quality of energy is thrusting and pushing.

Think of plants breaking through the soil. Think of the number of births

that occur in animals in the spring. On the other hand, the winter is the

time of maximun Yin and retiring. People tend to be less active in the

winter. The energy in the greater environment simply is not present to

support a lot of activities and undertaking new projects. The summer is the

most Yang time of the year, and people tend to have more energy then than in

the winter.

 

For more information on the symbolism of the Elements and their role in TCM,

check the previous posts on the Chinese Traditional Medicine website for Dagmar's

newsletters from China.

 

Victoria

 

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[Guest guest]

Thank you for that Judy, very informative.

 

Did you write that all yourself or do you have a collection of articles to cut & paste whenever someone brings up a topic that might not be recognized by the newbies?

 

 

 

-

Judy Fitzgerald

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Friday, July 13, 2001 9:10 AM

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] 8 Extrordinary Vessels and Trigrams Relationship

>Which of the 8 Vessels relates to which of the Trigrams?>>I know that each trigram relates to one of the five elements, does the same >go for the Vessels?>>If each of the 8 vessels relates to a trigram, why are some considered more >important than others? In other words, why are only 3 of them (ie, du mai, >ren mai, and chong mai) used more often than the others? Aren't all the >vessels/trigams equally important?First, some background info for those new to TCM:There are 12 main meridians/ channels. These are the Liver, Gall Bladder, Heart, Small Intestine, Pericardium, Triple Heater, Spleen, Stomach, Lungs, Large Intestine, Kidneys, and Bladder.In addition, there are 8 "extraordinary meridians". These are:>Governing Vessel (Du Mai)>Conception Vessel (Ren Mai)>Thrusting Vessel (Chong Mai)>Girdle Vessel (Dai Mai)>Yang Heel Vessel (Yangqiao Mai)>Yin Heel Vessel (Yinqiao Mai)>Yang Linking Vessel (Yangwei Mai)>Yin Linking Vessel (Yinwei Mai).The Thrusting Vessel also is known as the Penetrating Vessel in some texts.With the exception of the Governing Vessel and the Conception Vessel (which run up the midline of the back of the body and the front of the body), the extraordinary vessels have no acupoints specific to them. They are pathways of Qi flow separate from the main meridians, and they touch acupoints on various main meridians. For example, part of the course of the Penetrating Vessel closely follows the path of the Kidney meridian. But some like the Girdle Vessel follow completely different pathways. (The Girdle Vessel is the only one with a horizonal flow of Qi. In some texts it's called the Belt meridian.)One of the main function of the extraordinary vessels is they act a lot like a flood control/ irrigation system. If there is too much Qi blocked in one of the main meridians, it can move into one of the EV. If there is too little Qi in a main meridian, some can be provided by one of the EVs.Of the 8 EV, 3 have more uses in healing than the others. These are the Conception Vessel, the Governor Vessel, and the Penetrating (aka Thrusting) Vessel.In addition to acting as a type of flood control/ resevoir system, the 8 EV also circulate Jing (Essence) around the body. The 8 EV all get their energy from the Kidneys and they all contain Essence. (Maciocia, Foundations, p. 355).The 3rd thing they do is to circulate Defensive (Wei) Qi. This is the Qi that circulates over the surface of the body and helps people to be resistent to weather changes, Pernicious Evils (Cold, Heat, Wind, Dampness, and Dryness), infecitons, and allergens. Actually, only the Penetrating, Conception, and Governing Vessels do this. This is part of the reason why these 3 get mentioned more than the other EVs.The fourth thing is that the Conception and Penetrating Vessels control the 7 and 8 year cycles in the lives of females and males.All of the EVs originate from the Kidneys, but the Conception, Governing, and Penetrating Vessels originate directly from the Kidneys. These 3 are the source of the other 5.The Conception, Governor, and Penetrating Vessels all start in the Kidneys. >From there they flow down to the perineum (CV 1) and then branch out along different pathways. "They, more than the other extraordinary vessels, can be used in clinical practice to affect the patient's energy at a deep constitutional level." (Maciocia, p. 356)The Conception Vessel is the "Sea of the Yin channels". If someone has some major Yin problems affecting the entire body, the Conception channel can affect Yin all over the body. This merdian gets used a lot in menopausal problems (which often are Yin Deficiency problems).The Governor Vessel is the "Sea of Yang channels." As such, Yang all over the body can be affected by using points on it. It gets used a lot in chronic lower backache due to Kidney Deficiency.The Penetrating Vessel branches out into a network of smaller vessels and plays a major role in circulating Protective Qi over the abdomen and chest. For this reason it's called "The Sea of the 12 channels."Maciocia gives 4 main functions and clinical uses of the Penetrating Vessel: 1. Rebellious Qi and to move Qi and Blood when they stagnate in the chest and abdomen. 2. Only with the Conception Vessel, the Penetrating Vessel nourishes the uterus and menstruation and nourishes Blood. (Maciocia, p. 363) Don't overlook this vessel when it comes to treating menstrual problems, problems in the uterus, and Blood. 3. The Penetrating Vessel is the link between the Pre-Heaven and Post-Heaven Qi, and as such "can be used in all cases of weak constitution with digestive symptoms, such as poor appetite, abdominal distension and poor assimilation of food." (p. 363) 4. It also influences the Heart and can be used to move Blood through the Heart and treat pain and feelings of oppression in the chest.>From personal experience I want to say never underestimate the importance of the Penetrating Vessel in treating Cold congestion in the lower abdomen, especially in the Uterus, and getting Qi moving in the area like it needs to. Actually it can be in about any problem affecting the Uterus.The book Acuprssure WAy of Health: Jin Shin Do by Iona Marsaa Teeguarden is one source of info on using the 8 EVs in healing.Victoria_______________Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.comCommunity email addresses: Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine

[Guest guest]

>Thank you for that Judy, very informative.

>

>Did you write that all yourself or do you have a collection of articles to

>cut & paste whenever someone brings up a topic that might not be recognized

>by the newbies?

 

You're welcome.

 

With the exception of links I forward in, I write the posts in response to

need. Sometimes what takes me so long to get to do a particular post is I'm

doing research. It helps me to learn more as well.

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

LEECHES APPEAR TO RELIEVE OSTEOARTHRITIS KNEE PAINApplication of leeches to a painful, osteoarthritic knee can providesignificant pain relief that lasts for at least 28 days.http://orthopedics.medscape.com/42828.rhtml?srcmp=orth-092101<a href="http://orthopedics.medscape.com/42828.rhtml?srcmp=orth-092101">Read it Here</a>>>>>How about this

Alon

[Guest guest]

, <alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> LEECHES APPEAR TO RELIEVE OSTEOARTHRITIS KNEE PAIN

> Application of leeches to a painful, osteoarthritic knee can

> provide

> significant pain relief that lasts for at least 28 days.

 

Sounds similar to the effect of gua sha, or cupping with

blood-letting. Gua sha often relieves the kind of pain nothing else

has successfully treated. Leeches may be serving the same purpose,

sucking sha up to the surface and cleaning out the channels.

 

interesting.

Laurie

[Guest guest]

Leeches

>>They also inject anticlotting compounds

Alon