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I have a question in regard to the use of some herbs.

Some of the herbs, especially from the 'Clear heat, toxicity and

damp-heat' have from a biomedical perspective an antibiotic effect.

The question is do we need to use the western guidelines for

antibiotic use to some extent,

like making sure the patient finishes our prescription without

stopping in the middle.

 

dan

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I think you should follow the basic theory to make a Chinese Syndrome

Diagnosis to prescibe your formula, and then add one or two herbs by using

the western guideline.

 

The antibiotic research is conducted in the Lab, not conducted within the

human body, only using the western guideline has been proved not so

effective, they may good in the lab, but not good for the health.

 

 

 

 

 

> " Danny Levin " <lvds

>Chinese Traditional Medicine

>Chinese Traditional Medicine

>[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Antibiotics vs Herbs?

>Wed, 11 Jul 2001 06:47:52 -0000

>

>I have a question in regard to the use of some herbs.

>Some of the herbs, especially from the 'Clear heat, toxicity and

>damp-heat' have from a biomedical perspective an antibiotic effect.

>The question is do we need to use the western guidelines for

>antibiotic use to some extent,

>like making sure the patient finishes our prescription without

>stopping in the middle.

>

>dan

>

>

 

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>I have a question in regard to the use of some herbs.

>Some of the herbs, especially from the 'Clear heat, toxicity and

>damp-heat' have from a biomedical perspective an antibiotic effect.

>The question is do we need to use the western guidelines for

>antibiotic use to some extent,

>like making sure the patient finishes our prescription without

>stopping in the middle.

 

When it comes to TCM herbs, you follow the TCM criteria, contraindications,

and protocols.

 

TCM clients are evaluated more often than clients using Western medicine

because TCM recognizes more so than Western medicine that clinical pictures

change. The most common period is every two weeks though some people may be

reevaluated monthly, weekly, daily, or in some cases more than once a day.

It depends on what the person's need is.

 

The TCM view of the treatment of what are called infectious illnesses in the

West is far more detailed and stage-oriented than the usual treatment in the

West. TCM recognizes far more than Western medicine that there are stages

to these illnesses, and what works in one stage will do nothing in another

and can even hurt the person.

 

There are 6 basic stages of the Cold-Induced Evils. There are 4 basic

levels of the Virulent Heat Evils. Many of the stages and levels also have

subdivisions.

 

For example, the first stage of the Cold-Induced Evils is TaiYang-stage.

The is the stage where the Pernicious Evil is still completely Exterior.

Treatment will vary according to which Pernicious Evil is causing the

problem. If it's Cold attacking (aka Surface Solid), one of the effects of

Cold is to close pores. You want to disperse that Cold and get those pores

open so the Protective (Wei) Qi can circulate and fight off the Evil. This

is done with herbs to warm the Exterior and herbs which promote sweating.

 

On the other hand, if Wind is the Pernicious Evil, warming and sweating are

not the correct treatments. In Wind attack (aka Surface Deficiency), the

pores are open, and the problem is that the Nutritive (Ying) Qi and the Wei

(Protective) Qi are not harmonized. They need to be harmonized. (There are

herbs which do this.) If you used sweating (diaphoresis) - which disperses

Qi - you're going to weaken the Protective Qi.

 

The second stage of the Cold-Induced Evils is the ShaoYang or Lesser Yang

stage. Here the Evil is partly Interior and partly Exterior. This stage can

be subdived into two substages: ShaoYang tending to TaiYang and ShaoYang

tending to YangMing (Bright Yang). If ShaoYang is tending to ShaoYang, the

treatment is promoting diaphoresis. If ShaoYang is tending to YangMing, the

treatment is purging the bowels.

 

The third stage is the YangMing or Bright Yang stage. The Evil is now

completely Interior. There no longer are chills (a sign that the Righteous

Qi is battling the Evil at the body's surface. The Evil is completely

Interior. This is the stage marked by the very high temperatures and

Interior Excess Heat. This is the stage where the Clear Heat herbs are

used. One also wants to purge and protect Yin during this stage.

 

The fourth stage is the TaiYin or Greater Yin stage. The Evil has gone

deeper. There is damage to the Spleen Qi and possibly to the Spleen Yang.

There frequently are Dampness problems as a result. Oddly enough, this

stage usually doesn't arise spontaneously (unless there is a preexisting

tendency to Spleen Qi Deficiency) but usually is due to the over-use of Heat

Clearing herbs in the Yang stages. You definitely don't want to continue

these herbs a moment pass their need (unlike Western antibiotics which are

taken for a set amount of time). The Yang stages are characterized by some

degree of Heat, so overuse of these herbs is a distinct possibility.

 

If the Evil gets to the ShaoYin (Lesser Yin) or JueYin (Absolute Yin)

stages, the person has some very serious problems. In ShaoYin there is

likely to be damage to the Kidney Yang.

 

I've presented these like they're an orderly progression, but they seldom

are. A person can go straight from TaiYang to MingYang. A person can remain

stuck in the ShaoYang stage. This can become the life-threatening Collapse

of Yang. This is ShaoYin Deficiency Cold. But the ShaoYin stage also can

result in damage to the Kidney Yin, and this is ShaoYin Deficiency Heat.

 

The treatments for Excess Heat and Deficiency Heat are different. When you

look at the list of herbs in the board category of Herbs for Clearing

Internal Heat and in the subcategories Purge Fire, Cool Blood, Clear Damp

Heat, Clear Heat Toxin, and Clear Summer Heat, you want to note if the herb

is indicated for Deficiency Heat or Excess Heat or either or both. Some of

these herbs have contraindications and cautions listed for use with

Deficiency Heat (aka Yin Deficiency).

 

Now look at the contraindications and cautions listed for the herbs in the

Clear Internal Heat category. Listing after listing will say things like,

" Deficiency of Spleen and Stomach, Deficiency of Qi, Interior Deficiency

Cold (aka Yang Deficiency). Now skip back in the post to the paragraphs

about the TaiYin and the ShaoYin stages. TaiYin is characterized by damage

to the Spleen Qi and possibly the Spleen Yang. ShaoYin is characterized by

damage to the Kidney Yang.

 

The 6 stages of Cold Induced Evils, the 4 levels of the Virulent Heat Evils,

and the treatments are things which need to be discussed more on here.

 

One reason the Chinese concentrated on stages and levels of illnesses were

they needed to be able to predict what an illness would do so as to have the

correct herbs ready. Preparing herbs can take some time, and by the time

one batch is ready, the person may have passed to another stage in which the

herbs were useless or would aggravate problems and do further damage. Also,

a cornerstone of Chinese medicine (and philosophy) is the recognition that

things change.

 

Herbs listed in the Clear Interior Heat section are not the only herbs with

antiviral and/or antibacterial actions. A number of herbs in various

categories also have these properties, and not all the herbs in the Clear

Interior Heat sections have recognized antibiotic and/or antiviral

properties. For example, Dang Gui, also spelled Dong Quai, aka Rx Angelicae

Sinensis has in vitro antibiotic properties. Dong Quai is classified as a

Blood tonic herb. It's thermal energy is warm. Solomonseal rhizome, aka

Huang Jing, aka Rx Polygonati is classified as a Qi tonic, but it has in

vitro activity against tuberculosis bacilli and against many fungi. It's

energy is neutral, but even though it is a Qi tonic it is contraindicated in

Deficiency of Spleen with Dampness and in Stomach Deficiency (poor

digestion). The Yang tonic herb, horny goat weed, aka Hb Epimedii, aka Yin

Yang Huo, has warm energy and has antibiotic activity against Staphylococcus

aureus and against polio virus. It is contraindicated in Yin Deficiency with

marked Heat. Its primary uses are as a Yang tonic, to tonify the Kidneys,

and to expel Wind Cold Dampness and relieve Painful Obstruction. The

deciding factor in how long this herb gets used and how often is not the

presence of Staphylococcus aureus or the polio virus, but rather or not the

person is Kidney Yang Deficient and if the person also suffers from Wind

Cold Dampness invasion.

 

I want to stress that as a general rule TONIC HERBS ARE STOPPED WHEN THERE

IS AN ACTIVE INFECTION because they can " feed " the infection. But, there

are exceptions, and sometimes being aware of some of the tonic herbs with

antibacterial, antiviral, and antifungus activity can be a definite plus.

Other herbs in other categories besides Clear Interior Heat and Tonic herbs

also have these properties. Garlic is a good example.

 

The question was if the some of the same precautions should be observed with

certain Interior Heat Clearing herbs as with Western antibiotic drugs.

Actually, some of the precautions with herbs also need to be observed with

antibiotic drugs. Antibiotic drugs tend to have Cold energy which can cause

definite problems when used when there is Yang Deficiency - like in the

TaiYin and ShaoYin stages. In addition, antibiotics should only be used if

there is Excess Heat. They can create problems in cases of Deficiency Heat.

 

Strictly speaking, the Cold-Induced Evils and the Virulent Heat Evils

aren't limited to just bacterial or viral infections - or at least not

active infections. We're getting over into the category of what is known in

the West as post viral syndromes - like Post Polio Syndrome. A person can

stay in the TaiYin or ShaoYin stages for years with chronic very poor

health. We're also getting over into the concept of Latent Heat from the TCM

standpoint.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

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>I have a question in regard to the use of some herbs.

>Some of the herbs, especially from the 'Clear heat, toxicity and

>damp-heat' have from a biomedical perspective an antibiotic effect.

>The question is do we need to use the western guidelines for

>antibiotic use to some extent,

>like making sure the patient finishes our prescription without

>stopping in the middle.

 

When it comes to TCM herbs, you follow the TCM criteria, contraindications,

and protocols.

 

TCM clients are evaluated more often than clients using Western medicine

because TCM recognizes more so than Western medicine that clinical pictures

change. The most common period is every two weeks though some people may be

reevaluated monthly, weekly, daily, or in some cases more than once a day.

It depends on what the person's need is.

 

The TCM view of the treatment of what are called infectious illnesses in the

West is far more detailed and stage-oriented than the usual treatment in the

West. TCM recognizes far more than Western medicine that there are stages

to these illnesses, and what works in one stage will do nothing in another

and can even hurt the person.

 

There are 6 basic stages of the Cold-Induced Evils. There are 4 basic

levels of the Virulent Heat Evils. Many of the stages and levels also have

subdivisions.

 

For example, the first stage of the Cold-Induced Evils is TaiYang-stage.

The is the stage where the Pernicious Evil is still completely Exterior.

Treatment will vary according to which Pernicious Evil is causing the

problem. If it's Cold attacking (aka Surface Solid), one of the effects of

Cold is to close pores. You want to disperse that Cold and get those pores

open so the Protective (Wei) Qi can circulate and fight off the Evil. This

is done with herbs to warm the Exterior and herbs which promote sweating.

 

On the other hand, if Wind is the Pernicious Evil, warming and sweating are

not the correct treatments. In Wind attack (aka Surface Deficiency), the

pores are open, and the problem is that the Nutritive (Ying) Qi and the Wei

(Protective) Qi are not harmonized. They need to be harmonized. (There are

herbs which do this.) If you used sweating (diaphoresis) - which disperses

Qi - you're going to weaken the Protective Qi.

 

The second stage of the Cold-Induced Evils is the ShaoYang or Lesser Yang

stage. Here the Evil is partly Interior and partly Exterior. This stage can

be subdived into two substages: ShaoYang tending to TaiYang and ShaoYang

tending to YangMing (Bright Yang). If ShaoYang is tending to ShaoYang, the

treatment is promoting diaphoresis. If ShaoYang is tending to YangMing, the

treatment is purging the bowels.

 

The third stage is the YangMing or Bright Yang stage. The Evil is now

completely Interior. There no longer are chills (a sign that the Righteous

Qi is battling the Evil at the body's surface. The Evil is completely

Interior. This is the stage marked by the very high temperatures and

Interior Excess Heat. This is the stage where the Clear Heat herbs are

used. One also wants to purge and protect Yin during this stage.

 

The fourth stage is the TaiYin or Greater Yin stage. The Evil has gone

deeper. There is damage to the Spleen Qi and possibly to the Spleen Yang.

There frequently are Dampness problems as a result. Oddly enough, this

stage usually doesn't arise spontaneously (unless there is a preexisting

tendency to Spleen Qi Deficiency) but usually is due to the over-use of Heat

Clearing herbs in the Yang stages. You definitely don't want to continue

these herbs a moment pass their need (unlike Western antibiotics which are

taken for a set amount of time). The Yang stages are characterized by some

degree of Heat, so overuse of these herbs is a distinct possibility.

 

If the Evil gets to the ShaoYin (Lesser Yin) or JueYin (Absolute Yin)

stages, the person has some very serious problems. In ShaoYin there is

likely to be damage to the Kidney Yang.

 

I've presented these like they're an orderly progression, but they seldom

are. A person can go straight from TaiYang to MingYang. A person can remain

stuck in the ShaoYang stage. This can become the life-threatening Collapse

of Yang. This is ShaoYin Deficiency Cold. But the ShaoYin stage also can

result in damage to the Kidney Yin, and this is ShaoYin Deficiency Heat.

 

The treatments for Excess Heat and Deficiency Heat are different. When you

look at the list of herbs in the board category of Herbs for Clearing

Internal Heat and in the subcategories Purge Fire, Cool Blood, Clear Damp

Heat, Clear Heat Toxin, and Clear Summer Heat, you want to note if the herb

is indicated for Deficiency Heat or Excess Heat or either or both. Some of

these herbs have contraindications and cautions listed for use with

Deficiency Heat (aka Yin Deficiency).

 

Now look at the contraindications and cautions listed for the herbs in the

Clear Internal Heat category. Listing after listing will say things like,

" Deficiency of Spleen and Stomach, Deficiency of Qi, Interior Deficiency

Cold (aka Yang Deficiency). Now skip back in the post to the paragraphs

about the TaiYin and the ShaoYin stages. TaiYin is characterized by damage

to the Spleen Qi and possibly the Spleen Yang. ShaoYin is characterized by

damage to the Kidney Yang.

 

The 6 stages of Cold Induced Evils, the 4 levels of the Virulent Heat Evils,

and the treatments are things which need to be discussed more on here.

 

One reason the Chinese concentrated on stages and levels of illnesses were

they needed to be able to predict what an illness would do so as to have the

correct herbs ready. Preparing herbs can take some time, and by the time

one batch is ready, the person may have passed to another stage in which the

herbs were useless or would aggravate problems and do further damage. Also,

a cornerstone of Chinese medicine (and philosophy) is the recognition that

things change.

 

Herbs listed in the Clear Interior Heat section are not the only herbs with

antiviral and/or antibacterial actions. A number of herbs in various

categories also have these properties, and not all the herbs in the Clear

Interior Heat sections have recognized antibiotic and/or antiviral

properties. For example, Dang Gui, also spelled Dong Quai, aka Rx Angelicae

Sinensis has in vitro antibiotic properties. Dong Quai is classified as a

Blood tonic herb. It's thermal energy is warm. Solomonseal rhizome, aka

Huang Jing, aka Rx Polygonati is classified as a Qi tonic, but it has in

vitro activity against tuberculosis bacilli and against many fungi. It's

energy is neutral, but even though it is a Qi tonic it is contraindicated in

Deficiency of Spleen with Dampness and in Stomach Deficiency (poor

digestion). The Yang tonic herb, horny goat weed, aka Hb Epimedii, aka Yin

Yang Huo, has warm energy and has antibiotic activity against Staphylococcus

aureus and against polio virus. It is contraindicated in Yin Deficiency with

marked Heat. Its primary uses are as a Yang tonic, to tonify the Kidneys,

and to expel Wind Cold Dampness and relieve Painful Obstruction. The

deciding factor in how long this herb gets used and how often is not the

presence of Staphylococcus aureus or the polio virus, but rather or not the

person is Kidney Yang Deficient and if the person also suffers from Wind

Cold Dampness invasion.

 

I want to stress that as a general rule TONIC HERBS ARE STOPPED WHEN THERE

IS AN ACTIVE INFECTION because they can " feed " the infection. But, there

are exceptions, and sometimes being aware of some of the tonic herbs with

antibacterial, antiviral, and antifungus activity can be a definite plus.

Other herbs in other categories besides Clear Interior Heat and Tonic herbs

also have these properties. Garlic is a good example.

 

The question was if the some of the same precautions should be observed with

certain Interior Heat Clearing herbs as with Western antibiotic drugs.

Actually, some of the precautions with herbs also need to be observed with

antibiotic drugs. Antibiotic drugs tend to have Cold energy which can cause

definite problems when used when there is Yang Deficiency - like in the

TaiYin and ShaoYin stages. In addition, antibiotics should only be used if

there is Excess Heat. They can create problems in cases of Deficiency Heat.

 

Strictly speaking, the Cold-Induced Evils and the Virulent Heat Evils

aren't limited to just bacterial or viral infections - or at least not

active infections. We're getting over into the category of what is known in

the West as post viral syndromes - like Post Polio Syndrome. A person can

stay in the TaiYin or ShaoYin stages for years with chronic very poor

health. We're also getting over into the concept of Latent Heat from the TCM

standpoint.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

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