Yin Fire?

[Guest guest]

Hi All !

 

Can anyone please explaine me the concept of the term " Yin Fire " ,

(This is NOT Empty-heat from yin xu).

 

Thank You,

Dan

[Guest guest]

This may be a followup from a rookie, I don't know if you're an advanced practicioner in which case this would be common sense to you, but from what I know "Yin Fire" corresponds with two of the zang-fu organs.

 

The first one is the Heart which is a "Yin-Fire" organ, it's "Yang-Fire" partner is the Small Intestine. The second one is the Pericardium which is the second "Yin-Fire" organ, the Triple Heater is its associated "Yang-Fire" partner.

 

Hence, all "Yin Fire", in general, would originate from these two organs.

 

Hope this helps.

 

http://www.lieske.com/5e.htm

 

 

Hi All !Can anyone please explaine me the concept of the term "Yin Fire",(This is NOT Empty-heat from yin xu).Thank You,Dan

[Guest guest]

hmm, a simple "no, that's not what I meant" would have been a bit more acceptable, but I'm okay...

 

 

 

 

Hi lee.NO NO NO NO NO !!!first of all i am a third year student for acupuncture and herbs.this term refers to a kind of fire that arises from a deficiencyof yang with dampness.It is said it can lead to diseases as Multiple sclerosis,Rheumatoid arthritis and Chronic fatigue syndromthough the pathogenesis of this is not very clear to me.If some one can explain it to me i would be grateful.thank you,Dan Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine

[Guest guest]

Hi lee.

 

NO NO NO NO NO !!!

 

first of all i am a third year student for acupuncture and herbs.

this term refers to a kind of fire that arises from a deficiency

of yang with dampness.

It is said it can lead to diseases as Multiple sclerosis,

Rheumatoid arthritis and Chronic fatigue syndrom

though the pathogenesis of this is not very clear to me.

If some one can explain it to me i would be grateful.

 

thank you,

Dan

[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine, " Danny.L " <lvds@n...> wrote:

> Hi All !

>

> Can anyone please explaine me the concept of the term " Yin Fire " ,

> (This is NOT Empty-heat from yin xu).

>

> Thank You,

> Dan

 

As I understand it " Yin Fire " is what results from deficient Kidneys

unable to control the fire of the Heart. I believe that this could

pertain to either Kidney Yin or Yang deficiency or both. The Kidneys

control the heart in the Five Element system, thus if they are weak

in any way, they will be unable to perform this function. Yin fire

with dampness would suggest Kidney Yang deficiency.

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 05/07/2001 3:05:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

lvds writes:

 

<< " the life gate fire of the kidneys is disturbed either by this damp-

heat(from spleen xu) or by depressed fire due to qi stagnation.

The ministerial fire can then become erratic, disturbing other organs

with its heat. This is called Yin Fire, because it arises from

dampness and yang deficiency. >>

 

If the Spleens energy does not rise to the Lung as it should (can be from

various causes like poor diet or deficiency), it flows downward to the

Kidney. This energy is turbid (damp-heat?) because the Spleen was unable to

separate the pure from the impure. Thus the Kidneys are overtaxed and

weaken. Doesn't ministerial fire refer to the fire of the Heart? I am not

sure about that but for some reason have it in my mind as such. If so, the

Heart Fire (Kidney unable to control the fire of the Heart) would disturb the

Spleen even more through the shen cycle, the Lung by exerting too much

restraint upon it through the Ko cycle and the Liver by demanding too much

from it (the parent).

 

In the case of Qi stagnation ... from Michael Tierras " Chinese Traditional

Herbal Medicine " Vol. I pg. 285: " Damp Heat in the Liver .... This pattern

arises from excessive heat in the Liver and dampness due to Spleen

deficiency. When Damp Heat accumulates it disrupts the flow of Qi, causing

Qi stagnation symptoms. Since dampness has a tendency to flow downwards, it

frequently settles in the lower burner ... "

 

Thus the same scenario would result ... Kidneys taxed, overworked and

weakened, now unable to control the fire of the Heart.

 

PS: I am a student and am not completely sure that I am correct.

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

Thank You Lynn and Thank You Lee(sorry for the nono..

 

I found this term in an article of the JCM62,

its name is " The Role Of Qi Mechanisms In The Treatment Of Knotty

Disease " .

i will quote the paragraph:

" the life gate fire of the kidneys is disturbed either by this damp-

heat(from spleen xu) or by depressed fire due to qi stagnation.

The ministerial fire can then become erratic, disturbing other organs

with its heat. This is called Yin Fire, because it arises from

dampness and yang deficiency. How ever, this yin fire may also consume

kidney yin, causing the More Familiar deficient heat to complicate

matters even worse. "

 

the kidneys can't be in excess by definision and the yin of the

kidneys is not injured yet(which meens there is no deficient heat

yet) then how can the mingmen fire disturb other organs?

Or is it only the damp-heat and/or qi stagnation which fom this heat?

or am i getting it all wrong...

 

Thank You

[Guest guest]

>This may be a followup from a rookie, I don't know if you're an advanced

>practicioner in which case this would be common sense to you, but from what

>I know " Yin Fire " corresponds with two of the zang-fu organs.

 

I haven't been able to run across any good, concise explanations of Yin

Fire. It's helpful to think of Yin Fire as something which results when

there is a combination of patterns. The core patterns are Spleen Vacuity

(Deficiency), Liver Depression, and Heat. The Heat can be due to Qi

Stagnation (Qi is warm, when Qi is blocked or Stagnates, Heat builds up)

and/or it can be Damp Heat. (This information is coming from Bob Flaws

articles. Other writers may add other things. Yin Fire is a fairly complex

subject.)

 

For those new to TCM, I want to review some definitions here. Deficiency

Heat, aka Yin Deficiency, is Heat that arises because there is not enough

Yin to cool the body properly. One of the functions of Yin is to cool the

body. Excess Heat arises because there is too much of something. The Heat

that builds up due to Qi blockage or Stagnation is an example of Excess

Heat. Heat combined with Dampness is Damp Heat. Since Dampness is an

Excess condition, Damp Heat is classified as Excess Heat. Heat which arises

from eating too many foods or taking too many herbs with warming energy also

is an example of Excess Heat.

 

At first this concern with conditions being Deficiency or Excess or a

combination is going to sound like unnecessary splitting of hairs and much

to do about nothing. In actuality, knowing if a condition is due to

Deficiency or Excess or a combination is going to dictate treatment. In

cases of Deficiency (aka Emptiness, aka Vacuity), one tonifies or

supplements what is missing. Thus, in cases of Deficiency Heat (aka Yin

Deficiency), one adds Yin so that the person now has enough Yin to cool the

body properly. In cases of Excess Heat, one removes the Excess - i.e., get

the Stagnant Qi moving, remove the block, get rid of the Dampness, stop

eating so many foods and herbs with warm or hot thermal energy. In cases

where both Deficiency and Excess are present, one jointly supplies what is

missing while getting rid of what there is too much of.

 

>The first one is the Heart which is a " Yin-Fire " organ, it's " Yang-Fire "

>partner is the Small Intestine. The second one is the Pericardium which is

>the second " Yin-Fire " organ, the Triple Heater is its associated

> " Yang-Fire " partner.

 

Actually, Yin Fire has more to do with the Kidneys than the Fire organs.

For those new to TCM, the Heart, Small Intestine, Percardium, and Triple

Heater are classified as " Fire " Organ/Meridian systems. This won't mean a

lot to you right now, but it will when you get into the Elemental Theory

(which will add some finetuning to your ability to analyze and treat).

 

" Fire " is one of those terms which has a lot of different meanings in TCM.

There is destructive Fire - like pneumonia which is Wind Cold turned into

Fire - but there also is constructive Fire, aka " Friendly Fire. " this

constructive Fire is what makes life possible. Without Friendly Fire, we'd

all be dead. If you're familiar with Feng Shui, the Chinese art of

placement and design (simplified explanation), graveyards are classified as

too Yin, as being places where Yin is too concentrated. There's no Yang

activating those bodies.

 

For those new to TCM, the Kidneys are the source of Yang and Yin for the

entire body. Yang warms and activates; Yin cools and calms. Fire and Water

are synonyms for Kidney Yang and Kidney Yin.

 

In TCM, there is something called the Gate of Vitality or Ming Men. Through

the centuries there has been a debate as to exactly where the Ming Men is.

Early writers identified it with the right Kidney, saying the left Kidney

was the Kidney proper but the right was the Ming Men. Today it's believed to

lie between the two kidneys. " ... The Gate of Vitality is the organ of

Water and Fire, it is the residence of Yin and Yang, the Sea of Essence and

it determines life and death. " (Zhang Jie Bin cited by Giovanni Maciocia in

The Foundations of , p. 99)

 

Maciocia adds, " The Kidneys are unlike any other organ in so far as they are

the origin of Water and Fire of the body, the Primary Yin and Primary Yang.

The Gate of Vitality is the embodiment of the Fire within the Kidneys. "

(This is Friendly Fire, unlike Yin Fire which is destructive.)

 

" In this respect the Gate of Vitality theory is at variance with the

5-Element theory according to which Fire is derived from the Heart, not from

the Gate of Titality, i.e. the Kidneys. These theories simply spring from

two different perspectives and are both valid. However, in clinical

practice, the theory that attributes the origin of Fire to the Gate of

Vitality and hence the Kidneys is more significant and more widely used. "

(Foundations, p. 99.)

 

Important concepts for beginners: The Kidneys are the source of Yang and

Yin for the rest of the body. If the Kidneys are Deficient, they're not

going to be able to supply Yang and Yin to the rest of the body. Until the

Kidney Deficiency is treated, you're just treating symptoms piecemeal and

not addressing the reason Yang and Yin are Deficient in the other Organ

systems. They're Deficient in the other Organ systems because there's not

enough Yang and Yin in the Kidneys to supply the Kidneys or the rest of the

body.

 

Fire can be constructive or destructive. Kidney Yang is constructive or

Friendly Fire. Yin Fire is destructive Fire. Any Pernicious Evil (Wind,

Cold, Heat, Dryness, or Dampness) can turn into destructive Fire. Because Qi

is warm (Qi is Yang when compared to Blood which is Yin), Qi Stagnation can

give rise to destructive Fire. Think of a pressure cooker here.

 

Victoria

 

_______________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

>As I understand it " Yin Fire " is what results from deficient Kidneys

>unable to control the fire of the Heart.

 

Yin Fire can include this but is not limited to this.

 

>I believe that this could

>pertain to either Kidney Yin or Yang deficiency or both. The Kidneys

>control the heart in the Five Element system, thus if they are weak

>in any way, they will be unable to perform this function.

 

For those new to TCM, this is the pattern called Kidney and Heart Not

Harmonized. There is a relationship between the Heart and the Kidneys.

Even though the Kidneys are the source of all Yang (warming) and Yin

(cooling) in the body, the Heart also supplies Constructive Fire. The

Kidneys need the constructive Fire of the Heart just as the Heart needs the

cooling of the the Kidney Water (Yin). " Water and Fire must assist each

other: the Fire of the Heart must descend to warm the Kidneys, and the WAter

of the Kidneys must ascend to cool the Heart. " (Maciocia, Foundations, p.

260) This is a check and balance situation. If the Kidneys are Yin

Deficient and can't supply enough Yin to the Heart, or, if for some reason

the Yin of the Kidneys doesn't rise to the Heart, the normal Heat of the

Heart is going to get out of control and burst into the flames of

destructive Fire. Likewise, the constructive Fire of the Heart needs to

descend to warm the Kidneys. Otherwise, the Kidneys are going to be way too

cold, and cold Kidneys don't operate very well.

 

An important concept for those new to TCM is that there are proper

directions of flow in the body. In this case, the Heart Fire is supposed to

descend to warm the Kidneys while the Kidney Water (Yin) is supposed to

ascend to the Heart to keep it from getting too hot. If something

interferes with with this proper direction of flow, problems are going to

result. In the case of Kidney and Heart Not Harmonized, some of the

symptoms and signs are " palpitations, mental reslessness, insomina, poor

memory, dizziness, tinnitus, deafness, soreness of the lower back, nocturnal

emissions with dreams, fever or feeling of heat in the afternoon, night

sweating, scanty-dark urination, Red-Peeled tongue with redder tip and

midline crack, and Floating-Empty, Rapid " pulse. (Foundations, p. 260) A lot

of these symptoms - like the insomnia, the nervousness, etc. are symptoms of

Heart Yin Deficiency. What tips one off that something beside Heart Yin

Deficiency is involved are the symptoms like the tinnitus, soreness of the

lower back, etc. These are symptoms that point to Kidney involvement. (Any

time the back or the ears or hearing are affected, suspect and rule in or

rule out Kidney involvement.) This is a snowballing type of situation. Both

the Kidney Yin Deficiency and the Heart Yin Deficiency will aggravate and

make each other worse and worse. Both have to be addressed at the same time

to stop the cycle. In addition, there are problems with the direction of

flow. These flow direction problems also have to be addressed. Maciocia

gives several acupoints for this syndrome. Heart 5 not only clears

Deficiency Heat, it directs it downward away from the head. Ren-4

(Conception Vessel 4) not only " nourishes Kidney-Yin and Kidney-Essence, " it

" conducts Heat downwards. " (p. 260)

 

>Yin fire

>with dampness would suggest Kidney Yang deficiency.

 

This will become clearer after reading the Bob Flaws articles.

 

For those further along in TCM, Yin Fire is (to me) a complex concept. It's

not synonymous with Deficiency Heat thought it can give rise to Deficiency

Heat. It's not just Damp Heat though Damp Heat can exist where there is Yin

Fire.

 

One of the Flaws articles does address CFIDS, and I want to give some

additional information on Yin Fire and CFIDS. CFIDS - like Yin Fire -

presents with different TCM patterns. The main Organ systems involved will

be the Liver, the Spleen, the Heart, and the Kidneys. (This is going to be

important to remember when reading the Flaws article. In the article he's

going to talk about Spleen Deficiency (Vacuity), Liver Depression Qi

Stagnation, and Dampness in particular. But there are some things about

CFIDS that he doesn't mention which are going to be important in really

getting a handle on the Yin Fire concept. PWCs can present with a wide

variety of symptoms. Even though the Kidneys almost always are affected

(certainly always in more long-standing cases), Kidney Yin Deficiency may be

more marked in one than in another whereas Kidney Yang Deficiency made be

more predominate in another. I want to comment here on very marked cases of

Kidney Yang Deficiency in PWCs and something which frequently observed in

these cases. Even though the Kidney Yang Deficiency may be so extreme as to

just about totally mask the Kidney Yin Deficiency problems and even though

the tongue may be extremely pale, the tip of the tongue often is too red.

Heat may also be indicated in the pulse diagnosis. There frequently will be

Heat in the Heart and/or Lungs (the Upper Burner) even though the person may

be so Cold overall that s/he's wearing heavy clothes in the summer, is

moving and talking very slowly, and the symptoms of Cold are overwhelming

standouts.

 

I don't know if this red tip on an otherwise pale tongue is showing up in

MS, lupus, RA, etc. sufferers like it frequently does in many PWCs (People

With CFIDS). I don't know if a redder tip is showing up in PWCs in which

the Kidney Yin Deficiency problems predominate. (For those new to TCM, if

the Kidneys are Deficient in Yang, Kidney Yin Deficiency almost always is

present in lesser degree, and vice versa. Even though both are present, one

will always predominate. Both will need to be treated when the Kidneys are

Deficient in either.)

 

From early on when I discovered TCM, I was wondering why is there Heat in my

Lungs and Heart when everything else is so extremely Cold? The concept of

Yin Fire provides some possible insights into this.

 

Victoria

 

_______________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

>i will quote the paragraph:

> " the life gate fire of the kidneys is disturbed either by this damp-

>heat(from spleen xu) or by depressed fire due to qi stagnation.

>The ministerial fire can then become erratic, disturbing other organs

>with its heat. This is called Yin Fire, because it arises from

>dampness and yang deficiency. How ever, this yin fire may also consume

> kidney yin, causing the More Familiar deficient heat to complicate

>matters even worse. "

 

Thanks for what is to date the clearest explanation of Yin Fire I've run

across. I've been searching for info on Yin Fire too, but what I ran across

wasn't as clear as this.

 

>the kidneys can't be in excess by definision and the yin of the

>kidneys is not injured yet(which meens there is no deficient heat

>yet) then how can the mingmen fire disturb other organs?

>Or is it only the damp-heat and/or qi stagnation which fom this heat?

>or am i getting it all wrong...

 

I'll forward in what I've found so far. These other articles start to make

it a little clearer.

 

The Heat from Damp Heat tends to " waft upwards " . The Heat from Qi

Stagnation tends to localize. Neither the Qi nor the Heat is going

anywhere. I'm also wondering if direction of Qi flow problems aren't

involved.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that whenever the Kidneys are Yang Deficient,

they're almost always Yin Deficient to a lesser degree. Even though Yin

Fire may not yet have damaged Kidney Yin (futher), this does not mean that

the Kidneys aren't already Yin Deficient. If the Kidneys have been Yang

Deficient severe enough and long enough to give rise to Yin Fire, they're

already Yin Deficient. There's already Kidney Yin Deficiency though the

Kidney Yang Deficiency may be severe enough to mask or nearly mask the

symptoms of the Kidney Yin Deficiency.

 

I too am having trouble with the concept of Yin Fire, and it's something I

need to understand better. The types of problems possibly linked to Yin

Fire is on the rise - MS, CFIDS, Fibromyalgia Syndrome, rheumatoid

arthritis, systemic lupus erythmatosus, Crohn's disease, Hashimoto's

thyroiditis, endometriosis due to autoimmune responses, and ALLERGIES.

 

The Flaws article on Gu Parasites and Yin Fire is particularly good. Gu is a

special kind of parasite. (There are different types of parasites.) One of

the symptoms of parasite problems is that the upper part of the body will

tend to be hotter than the lower part. (Parasite problems isn't the only

thing that can cause this upper body hot, lower body cold temperature

distribution. It's also frequently seen in menopause.)

 

Anyway, candidiasis is a Gu problem. Candidiasis is one of those things

which frequently occurs in PWCs (People With CFIDS).

 

In an earlier post I commented on the syndrome Kidney and Heart Not

Harmonized. One thing about this syndrome is that the Fire of the Heart is

not descending like it should to warm the Kidneys, and the Water of the

Kidneys is not rising like it should to keep the Heart from getting too Hot.

Kidney and Heart Not Harmonized is NOT Yin Fire. But this got me

thinking. In CFIDS it's like nothing is harmonized. CFIDS is a condition

of extremes. It's like whatever controls homeostasis in the body is

completely out of whack in CFIDS. This is why Western researchers

increasingly are looking at the hypothalamus in CFIDS research (specifically

the Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Adrenal axis). From a TCM standpoint, it's like

nothing is harmonized like it should be. There are definite Qi Stagnation

and direction of Qi flow problems. One problem I've had is getting the

herbs to where I need them the most. I need the herbs to Warm the Interior

the most in the lower part of the body. Even when I use guide herbs to try

to direct them to the Lower Burner, this isn't effective enough. When I

take enough Herbs to Warm the Interior and Yang tonic herbs to really give

me enough energy and *begin* to warm the lower body, it creates problems

with too much Heat in the Lungs and Heart. Adding Herbs to Move Qi helped

some, but still isn't enough. What has helped the most have been the Qi

Gong exercises. I can feel the lower abdomen begin to loosen up. It's like

something finally is starting to break up the Stagnation and Cold in that

area. The herbs and acupressure by themselves were not enough. It took the

Qi Gong exercises to allow the herbs to penetrate and work like they needed

to in that area.

 

Something else that the Flaws article touches on is how one will see

combinations of opposite symptoms in PWCs and those with other gu-linked

problems. It's fairly common to see people with both Deficiency and Excess.

It's somewhat common to see people with both Cold and Heat problems though

not nearly as common as both Deficiency and Excess. But Dampness and

Dryness problems at the same time takes a complex etiology. You'll

frequently see unusual combinations of Deficiency and Excess, Cold and Heat,

Dampness and Dryness in PWCs. It's like nothing is harmonized. All these

various systems are going off on their own. " Erratic " is an understatement.

 

There's still a lot about Yin Fire I don't understand.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

_______________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Thank you very much for all the information, if i will find any

additional info i will post it immediately.

 

Danny Levin

 

 

p.s:

i think this e-group is absolutely fabulous and of profound importance

[Guest guest]

Yin Fire = yin huo:

1. Fire engendered by diet, taxation fatigue, or joy, anger, anxiety, and

thougt.

2. Heart fire

 

A Practical Dictionary of . Wiseman, Feng Ye. 2nd

Edition

 

to 1.: I suppose by diet means a " yin " -factor that engenders heat/ fire. But

the rest is not conclusive to me and I'd apreciate further comments.

 

to 2:

Heart fire = xin huo

1. Synonym for soverign fire: The heart as an active force

2. Pathological fire in the heart forming either vacuity or repletion

patterns. See Heart Fire Flaming Upward, Intense Heart Fire, Hyperactive Heart

fire.

 

--

Praxis für Traditionelle Chinesische Medizin

Akupunktur und Kräuterheilkunde

 

Heilpraktiker Karl-Stephan Neufeldt

Florastr. 95

13187 Berlin-Pankow

Tel: 480960-30

Fax: 480960-32

Mail:kneufeldt

 

GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet.

http://www.gmx.net

 

 

 

Hi All !

 

Can anyone please explaine me the concept of the term " Yin Fire " ,

(This is NOT Empty-heat from yin xu).

 

Thank You,

Dan

 

 

 

 

 

 

Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine

Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine-

Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine-

List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner

 

Shortcut URL to this page:

/community/Chinese Traditional Medicine

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 05/09/2001 3:40:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

kneufeldt writes:

 

<< Yin Fire = yin huo:

1. Fire engendered by diet, taxation fatigue, or joy, anger, anxiety, and

thougt.

2. Heart fire

 

A Practical Dictionary of . Wiseman, Feng Ye. 2nd

Edition

 

<< to 1.: I suppose by diet means a " yin " -factor that engenders heat/ fire.

But

the rest is not conclusive to me and I'd apreciate further comments.

 

A diet that is too Yang would also create dampness (too much red meat, dairy,

refined foods, alcohol, coffee etc.) that would eventually lead to Yang

Deficiency

 

<< taxation fatigue: would exhaust adrenals leading to Kidney Yang Deficiency

 

<< joy: Too much damages the Heart .... Heart then unable to nourish Spleen

(Shen Cycle)

 

<< anger: Damages Liver .... Liver would weaken Spleen by exerting excessive

force (Ko Cycle)

 

<< anxiety: Damages Heart ... Back to unable to nourish Spleen

 

<< thought: Too much damages Spleen

 

Lynn