Needle Manipulation.

[Guest guest]

I have a question about needle manipulation (Reducing & Reinforce ).

In practice, how important are these methods?

Can one just put the needle and let it do the work?

And about the depth of needling, i heard that there are

practitioners who always use shallow needling, is it all very

important?

[Guest guest]

This is a great question as I've always wondered the same thing and hope

somebody can answer. As a patient who has chronic kidney yin and liver yin

deficiency, I can say one thing definitely. I've been to at least a dozen

acupuncturists in the last ten years. I've always had better results when

the insertion was deeper and the doctor manipulates the needles several times

during the treatment. Especially when the doctor inserts in one of the

kidney points on the ankle (k3?) and I get a shock running down my leg to K1.

I know I'm going to feel good after the treatment. I've spent too much money

on doctors who don't insert the needles and move the chi and walk out $50

poorer and feeling no difference.

 

Many of doctors have told me honestly that they don't insert deeply or

manipulate simply because many patients don't like it and they won't return.

Others who are in business themselves and have no office staff don't do it

simply because they don't have the time to treat another patient, answer the

phone etc.. But I've also been told, the results will be less if a patient

is uncomfortable and doesn't relax. Also, different doctors have different

ability. Some are able to insert deeply and manipulate with less pain. They

seem to have better control of the needle.

 

This is just one patients perspective.

 

 

In a message dated 2/25/2001 9:06:22 PM Eastern Standard Time,

lvds writes:

 

<<

I have a question about needle manipulation (Reducing & Reinforce ).

In practice, how important are these methods?

Can one just put the needle and let it do the work?

And about the depth of needling, i heard that there are

practitioners who always use shallow needling, is it all very

important?

>>

[Guest guest]

I want to attempt to answer this question. First I would like to say I was trained that manipulation and depth are both very important. Lets do depth first. Say I want to really go for the Qi and pull it to the needle, drive it in further or pull to the surface here is what I would do. I place needles in with a pipette so when inserting I would force the needle in with a firmer tap. Then grab the needle and push it in and turn. My depth determines how influenced I want the Qi to be. I would never do this with a weak or depleted patient it might be to much for them. So in that case I might want to make a suggestion to the Qi to come to the needle and work it a little less aggressively. In this case the needles would be more shallow and not as deep. Thus encouraging the Qi to come to the needle vs me grabbing the Qi with the needle.

Example: my mother was having back trouble I worked on her for 2 months with results but the pain would move positions. During a treatment I decided that I wanted to move the pain out and be done with it. She appeared at my house the next day with significant pain in her mid back, and experiencing much pain when breathing. Having just worked on her the day before and seeing how she felt I was struggling with any additional needles but I decided to go light and use less needles. Most of the pain left in 2 hours and 2 days later she was totally better. So in this case both aggressive and light worked.

 

Now a little about manipulation of needles. We could talk all day about this. At the clinic I work at we twist the needles half way through the treatment. Lets say I have a patient with neuropathy and I cannot find Qi in their points. What I have done before is place the needle in and begin to move it back and forth and up and down trying to grab the Qi. If this does not work then I would visualize a ball of Qi forming in my body and move it to the other person until the Qi grabs and this can be felt by the practitioner and the patient usually. Many acupuncturists believe that clockwise and counterclockwise will sedate or tonify the point. I believe this works in most people. IN a normal situation however I would want to grab the Qi also so I might manipulate the needle till I could feel it come. Now some times I place needles and they grab right away and other times I move then in deeper before I get the Qi. It depends on the patient and what they need.

 

I hope this answers some of your questions about depth and manipulation.

Please keep in mind this is how I have been trained and there are many ways to do acupuncture. A good practitioner will do what they believe is best for the patient so keep this in mind. Maybe they have had more success with lighter and more superficial needling or with more aggressive. I strongly believe that if you have had success with a particular method that you share this with your practitioner.

Intent is very important in this work. I believe that superficial or deep with or without manipulation you can help many patients with your intent behind what you are attempting to achieve.

Thanks Shane

[Guest guest]

further to the idea of intent being important - this whole issue becomes

even more fascinating when you consider some of the Japanese styles

perfected by blind practitioners which do not involve insertion but the

highly refined act of bringing the needle to contact the skin surface with

intense concentration and focus!!!!!!!

 

Daniel

[Guest guest]

First of all i want to thank you for your in-depth answer.

If you can, please try to explain what do you mean by saying:

 

" I would visualize a ball of Qi forming in my body and move it to the

other person until the Qi GRABS? and this can be FELT? by the

practitioner and the patient usually. "

 

What do you objectively feel when the qi grabs the needle?

i think this is the thing the troubles me the most..

I can understand how the patient can feel the qi by different

sensations of the needle, but how can i?

 

Thank You,

Danny

[Guest guest]

Danny wrote:

 

> I can understand how the patient can feel the qi by different

> sensations of the needle, but how can i?

 

The needle seems to hit a wall, at which I stop insertion if it is at

the appropriate depth. Or sometimes, the tissue seems to grab the needle

which prevents it from moving any further in, or even being pulled out.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

Danny Are you a student or just a curious about TCM? I always find it interesting to know who I am talking with.

 

Ok, the ball in Qi in myself is mixed with intent and visualization (and of course my Qi). I see this big ball of Qi circling around and around and is building strength and when I think it is at a peak I ask it to move to my hand and into the needle and into the patient. Intent intent intent. It is a lot like the martial arts people who can throw their Qi and knock someone over or stun them and never lay a hand on the person. Now I only use my powers for good (teeeeheeee) so I use it to help move a person along.

 

Grab in the needle is very distinct the needle will stop moving and you can feel the tissue around it begin to close around the needle. Often the patient will say something and remark on a change in the feeling in that area. I have at times felt like a small electrical charge thru the needle to my finger tips. This can also happen upon insertion. I have a patient whenever I work on her she is so in tune with the treatment that the needles immediately grab and I can feel the charge on most of her needles. She is also very good at telling me when she thinks I missed the point and she is usually correct. Always listen to the patient "it is their body" Not a real western philosophy.

 

Hope this helps Shane

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/26/2001 5:57:29 PM Central Standard Time, schulman writes:

 

 

further to the idea of intent being important - this whole issue becomes

even more fascinating when you consider some of the Japanese styles

perfected by blind practitioners which do not involve insertion but the

highly refined act of bringing the needle to contact the skin surface with

intense concentration and focus!!!!!!!

 

Daniel

 

 

 

 

Daniel

 

I agree this is truly amazing.

 

Shane