OT: Disappointed with course

[Guest guest]

WOW......I would have to say that I am surprised by your comments Victoria because since I have been on this group you have spoken highly of the Wicke materials. Oh, by the way Merry Christmas to all.......... I would agree that many of the courses that I have looked into on TCM are crap. Money is better spent on some of the higher priced books and materials. I know Wicke's course is very expensive and would highly recommend that people save the money and attend something like the Pacific Symposium (held every year in San Diego in November) now that was money well spent and Maciocia was there in person (I got him to sign my book) he was very kind and a humble man. I would say if Wicke is catering to the M.D.'s you really don't want to have anything to do with him anyway because we all know the Western doc bastardize everything they touch. (oh god there comes!

my candidness again, sorry) TCM has no room for ego's Sorry this has not been a positive experience for you Victoria but maybe your advise can save another person. Artificial Education is a good term but I believe when this happens it is the low self esteem of the instructor that causes the artificial nonsense.

 

Hey speaking of educational materials Redwing Books (redwingbooks.com) has a computer program that is called TCM CLinic you diagnose with pulse and tongue on the screen give your diagnosis formulate the plan and treat the patient if you are correct you get more patients and money if your wrong you have a very slow practice. Looks like fun you can play a game and learn TCM. It is on my x-mas list and I think that Santa may have delivered it already. It was inexpensive as computer software goes somewhere in the ball park of $50.-$60. cheap actually. Oh if you need help there is a master acupuncturist on the game to consult with. teeeheee Nice way to keep current on things.

Talk with you later. Shane

[Guest guest]

As some of you know I have been taking a TCM course from Roger Wicke at the

Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute. I was very favorably impressed with the

website and the two textbooks. But the course is something else entirely,

and has been a very big disappointment.

 

I think my disappointment has to do a lot with two radically differently

approaches to education. I believe in courses that are genuinely hard but

are very well presented and follow a step by step progression which enables

students to develop a firm foundation. I used to teach in the continuing ed

department of a community college. I was hired originally to teach computer

classes to the county's teachers. These classes counted toward their

on-going certification requirements. After the county's teachers had gotten

first shot at the classes, they were opened up to the general public.

 

There was a great deal of feedback in this arrangement. In fact, at the end

of every quarter students got to grade their continuing ed instructors and

courses. They told what they liked and didn't like, and this kept the

quality of the courses high. What most of the public wanted were courses

that were genuinely hard, that challenged them, that gave them a good

foundation to build upon, and which were fair.

 

As a student, I have had experience with courses which are quality and

genuinely hard but passable as well as with courses that were artificially

hard. What I mean by artifically hard is a course in which the instructor

uses tactics like quizzing students on minute and insignificant details.

Like does it really matter what the name of the wife of President Harding's

vice president was when she played no significant role in history? Another

tactic is to quiz on material which has not been presented. Still another

is to mark things as wrong on tests which clearly are stated in the text as

the correct answer or which the insturctor has stated. Instructors of these

artificially hard courses often are very arbitrary. In an artificially hard

course, the emphasis is on ranking and sorting students and weeding students

out through any means. In a quality course, the emphasis is on education

and on helping as many students as possible to build a firm foundation and

do well.

 

I took a chemistry course which was genuinely hard at a community college.

It was rigorous, but all in the class understood basic chemistry very well

by the time we completed the third quarter. Many of us transferred to the

same university. Unfortunately this university's chemistry department

confused artificially hard with offering a quality course. The basic

chemistry rate had a 70% failure rate, and those who finally did make it

through the university's basic chemistry course didn't really understand

chemistry very well. I and others who had had a quality class at the

community college frequently found ourselves in junior and senior

engineering classes with those who had made it through the university's

course who didn't know that electricity was a flow of electrons or how to do

a gas law equation. Artificial hardness in a course rarely results in a

quality education. Quite the opposite.

 

I now find myself in a course which is artificially hard and a great

disappointment. I have been spending a lot of time on the course without

really learning much. I liken it to jumping through hoops which are

arbritarily placed and frequently moved. In fact, I'm finding that the time

wasted on this course is time which could be spent learning a lot by reading

and by looking up information for questions on this list. Also, the money

wasted on the course could have been better spent buying books by authors

such as Maciocia. Many of the readers on this list know how much I enjoy

TCM. I'm to the point where I'm approaching this course with the feeling of

" Oh no, time to work on the TCM crap and get it out of the way. " This more

than anything else has been a wakeup call to me that all is not on the up

and up here and it's time to pursue another path.

 

So I have decided to drop this course so I will have more time to spend

really learning instead of merely jumping through hoops on another's whims.

Least anyone think that this is sour grapes, I'm leaving with an A average.

The only reason I have an A average is because I knew a lot before I signed

up for the course. In fact, given the instructor's fondness for homework

questions that require knowing information not yet covered in the text and

even information which is never covered in the text or in the student

toolbox, I've often wondered how and if anyone who takes the course without

being fairly widely read in TCM before hand passes the course.

 

I cannot recommend this course to others, especially to anyone just starting

to learn about TCM. In addition, I got the distinct impression on a number

of occasions that the attitude of Wicke and the RMHI is that students who

are not Western MDs don't really count and are not important. Something

else that really bothers me is the way Wicke will count off for a student

not saying something when the student does say it. In other words, one

gives the correct answer, but Wicke acts like the student has not said it,

and counts off points for failing to say it when it has been said. Overall

I got an impression of an individual very heavily into game playing and

manipulation.

 

Victoria

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Victoria,

 

I'm sorry you are disappointed with the course. I value your opinion and

thank you for sharing it. This is a course I was interested in. I

to Wicke's Herbalist Review. The last issue he sent out sent up

some warning flags for me. I didn't like his tone, his strong opinions, his

alarmist/elitist attitude. It really turned me off and that is when I

questioned whether or not I would like his course. You have confirmed a

hunch I had about him.

 

Lynn

 

 

 

>As some of you know I have been taking a TCM course from Roger Wicke at the

>Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute. I was very favorably impressed with the

>website and the two textbooks. But the course is something else entirely,

>and has been a very big disappointment.

>

[Guest guest]

I couldn’t

find redwingbooks.com……is there another way of getting to it? I am taking a Chinese

herb course that is really great. If anyone is interested let me know.

Great

holidays everyone!

Diane of

the desert

Yes, I

really do live 100 miles from the nearest mall!

 

-----Original

Message-----

tarotdog

[tarotdog]

Thursday, December 21, 2000

3:43 PM

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] OT:

Disappointed with course

 

WOW......I

would have to say that I am surprised by your comments Victoria

because since I have been on this group you have spoken highly of the Wicke

materials. Oh, by the way Merry Christmas to all.......... I would agree

that many of the courses that I have looked into on TCM are crap. Money

is

better spent on some of the higher priced books and materials. I know

Wicke's course is very expensive and would highly recommend that people save

the money and attend something like the Pacific Symposium (held every year in

San Diego in November) now that was money well spent and Maciocia was there

in person (I got him to sign my book) he was very kind and a humble man.

I

would say if Wicke is catering to the M.D.'s you really don't want to have

anything to do with him anyway because we all know the Western doc bastardize

everything they touch. (oh god there comes! my candidness again, sorry)

TCM

has no room for ego's

Sorry this has not been a positive experience for you Victoria but maybe your

advise can save another person. Artificial Education is a good term but I

 

believe when this happens it is the low self esteem of the instructor that

causes the artificial nonsense.

 

Hey speaking of educational materials Redwing Books (redwingbooks.com) has a

computer program that is called TCM CLinic you diagnose with pulse and tongue

on the screen give your diagnosis formulate the plan and treat the patient if

you are correct you get more patients and money if your wrong you have a very

slow practice. Looks like fun you can play a game and learn TCM. It

is on

my x-mas list and I think that Santa may have delivered it already. It

was

inexpensive as computer software goes somewhere in the ball park of $50.-$60.

cheap actually. Oh if you need help there is a master acupuncturist on

the

game to consult with. teeeheee Nice way to keep current on things.

 

Talk with you later.

Shane

 

 

Community email

addresses:

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[Guest guest]

>WOW......I would have to say that I am surprised by your comments Victoria

>because since I have been on this group you have spoken highly of the Wicke

>materials.

 

It looks like it was a bait and switch operation. The website looks very,

very good. The two text books are good. (He does manage to present

syndromes in a logical way - he just doesn't stick to it in the course.)

But the course itself is crap. It looks like what Wicke is doing is

deliberately offering frustrating crap so students will drop out. Then he

refuses to refund, and he's sitting there with the money without having to

do any work for it. Nice racket.

 

>Oh, by the way Merry Christmas to all..........

 

Merry Christmas to you too.

 

>I would agree

>that many of the courses that I have looked into on TCM are crap. Money is

>better spent on some of the higher priced books and materials. I know

>Wicke's course is very expensive and would highly recommend that people

>save

>the money and attend something like the Pacific Symposium (held every year

>in

>San Diego in November) now that was money well spent and Maciocia was there

>in person (I got him to sign my book) he was very kind and a humble man. I

>would say if Wicke is catering to the M.D.'s you really don't want to have

>anything to do with him anyway because we all know the Western doc

>bastardize

>everything they touch.

 

Live and learn.<sigh>

 

One of the things I'm the most angry about - at myself as well as at Wicke -

is I could have used to money to buy more of Maciocia's books and other

quality books. I can't tell you how many times I turned to The Foundations

of by Maciocia to answer some of the homework questions.

Foundations isn't a required or even a recommended book for the Wicke

course. Yet, material was in Foundations which is needed to answer a lot of

the Wicke homework questions. Like there was one which involved True Cold -

False Heat. There was nothing in the Wicke text that would enable one to

know that this was a case of True Cold - False Heat. But on page 186 of

Foundations you find a chart that lists " Clinical Manifestations of False

Heat and False Cold " . It has the information that will enable students to

realize when they're seeing False Heat or False Cold.

 

BTW, you promised us some info about the Pacific Symposium.

 

>(oh god there comes my candidness again, sorry)

 

Please don't apologize. Believe me, I've said a lot worst than that these

past few days. So has my husband who also is very angry.

 

>Sorry this has not been a positive experience for you Victoria but maybe

>your

>advise can save another person.

 

Thank you. That's exactly why I went public with this. To save someone the

expense, the disappointment, and the hassle.

 

>Hey speaking of educational materials Redwing Books (redwingbooks.com) has

>a

>computer program that is called TCM CLinic you diagnose with pulse and

>tongue

>on the screen give your diagnosis formulate the plan and treat the patient

>if

>you are correct you get more patients and money if your wrong you have a

>very

>slow practice.

 

Sounds good. I know what I want for my birthday. BTW, I'm getting some TCM

books this Christmas.<G>

 

Thanks again,

Victoria

 

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[Guest guest]

>am taking a Chinese herb course that is really great. If anyone is

>interested let me know.

 

Please share. Since there are a lot of people who are interested in getting

formal training in TCM, I'm throwing this list open to people telling what

they like about certain courses and what they don't like. Maybe that will

help to weed out the bad courses and help the good ones to become even

better.

 

Everyone, please feel free to share what helps you to learn. People have

different styles of learning. If we get a discussion going on this, you may

find it fascinating to learn some of the different styles. And it could be a

great help to any teachers on the list.

 

Thanks,

Victoria

 

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[Guest guest]

Yes, please share which course you are taking. Try this link for Redwing

Books.

 

http://www.redwingbooks.com/

 

 

Lynn

 

>I couldn't find redwingbooks.com..is there another way of getting to it? I

>am taking a Chinese herb course that is really great. If anyone is

>interested let me know.

>Great holidays everyone!

>Diane of the desert

>Yes, I really do live 100 miles from the nearest mall!

>

[Guest guest]

>I

> to Wicke's Herbalist Review. The last issue he sent out sent up

>some warning flags for me. I didn't like his tone, his strong opinions,

>his

>alarmist/elitist attitude.

 

I caught that tone and attitude, and it started to disturb me too. Looking

back I realize it's one of the things that was adding to my growing

disquiet. One of the cracks in the facade.

 

Thanks,

Victoria

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Diane,

I'm interested to know what course you are taking.

thanks,

Kelly

 

-

Tuckered Tortoise

Chinese Traditional Medicine

Thursday, December 21, 2000 10:33 PM

RE: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] OT: Disappointed with course

 

 

I couldn’t find redwingbooks.com……is there another way of getting to it? I am taking a Chinese herb course that is really great. If anyone is interested let me know.

Great holidays everyone!

Diane of the desert

Yes, I really do live 100 miles from the nearest mall!

 

tarotdog [tarotdog]Thursday, December 21, 2000 3:43 PMChinese Traditional Medicine Subject: Re: [Chinese Traditional Medicine] OT: Disappointed with course

 

WOW......I would have to say that I am surprised by your comments Victoria because since I have been on this group you have spoken highly of the Wicke materials. Oh, by the way Merry Christmas to all.......... I would agree that many of the courses that I have looked into on TCM are crap. Money is better spent on some of the higher priced books and materials. I know Wicke's course is very expensive and would highly recommend that people save the money and attend something like the Pacific Symposium (held every year in San Diego in November) now that was money well spent and Maciocia was there in person (I got him to sign my book) he was very kind and a humble man. I would say if Wicke is catering to the M.D.'s you really don't want to have anything to do with him anyway because we all know the Western doc bastardize everything they touch. (oh god there comes! my candidness again, sorry) TCM has no room for ego's Sorry this has not been a positive experience for you Victoria but maybe your advise can save another person. Artificial Education is a good term but I believe when this happens it is the low self esteem of the instructor that causes the artificial nonsense. Hey speaking of educational materials Redwing Books (redwingbooks.com) has a computer program that is called TCM CLinic you diagnose with pulse and tongue on the screen give your diagnosis formulate the plan and treat the patient if you are correct you get more patients and money if your wrong you have a very slow practice. Looks like fun you can play a game and learn TCM. It is on my x-mas list and I think that Santa may have delivered it already. It was inexpensive as computer software goes somewhere in the ball park of $50.-$60. cheap actually. Oh if you need help there is a master acupuncturist on the game to consult with. teeeheee Nice way to keep current on things. Talk with you later. Shane Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine

[Guest guest]

Tuckered Tortoise wrote:

 

>>>I couldn’t find redwingbooks.com……is there another way of getting to

it? I am taking a Chinese herb course that is really great. If anyone is

interested let me know.<<<

 

There website is there, try this URL. Sometimes, URL's need the " www. "

at the beginning to resolve.

 

http://www.redwingbooks.com/

 

What desert are you in?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/22/2000 1:29:00 AM Central Standard Time, recluse1 writes:

 

 

I couldn’t find redwingbooks.com……is there another way of getting to it?

 

try: www.redwingbooks.com and see if this works.

 

Shane

[Guest guest]

Judy Fitzgerald wrote:

>

> >am taking a Chinese herb course that is really great. If anyone is

> >interested let me know.

>

> Please share. Since there are a lot of people who are interested in getting

> formal training in TCM, I'm throwing this list open to people telling what

> they like about certain courses and what they don't like. Maybe that will

> help to weed out the bad courses and help the good ones to become even

> better.

>

> Everyone, please feel free to share what helps you to learn. People have

> different styles of learning. If we get a discussion going on this, you may

> find it fascinating to learn some of the different styles. And it could be a

> great help to any teachers on the list.

 

I think that most on-line educational services are over-rated, though

obviously I can't know them all.

 

Personally, I direct people toward specific books if they want to get

their feet wet in TCM. Among my faves are Ted Kaptchuk's " The Web that

has no Weaver " and " The Chinese Way to Healing: Many Paths to Wholeness "

by Misha Ruth Cohen.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

Learn from books?

yes but X amount of documented hours of TCM study is required by the

AOBTA and its been common practice for students of zen shiatsu here in

Chicago to hire acupuncturists to tutor them for those TCM hours.

To cut costs, a few have set up group tutorings.

If an acupuncturist normally charges $60. per hour for therapy, X that

by 3 students armed with lists of questions and you've got a rather

intensive evening.

 

From my chats with practicing acupuncturists, it seems fairly common

practice for them to have hired tutors _beyond_ their standard education

in acupuncture college.

 

If you live far from a city, you might want to consider driving the

distance once a month or so for face to face training

 

if only for a second opinion to our own attempts at self diagnosis ;-)

 

Penel

[Guest guest]

>Personally, I direct people toward specific books if they want to get

>their feet wet in TCM. Among my faves are Ted Kaptchuk's " The Web that

>has no Weaver " and " The Chinese Way to Healing: Many Paths to Wholeness "

>by Misha Ruth Cohen.

 

Thanks. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the second one.

 

Do you have any favorites for people who know the basics but want to get

into it even deeper?

 

The sequence I usually recommend is The Web That Has No Weaver or Chinese

Herbal Cures by Henry C. Lu. Lu's book doesn't go into TCM syndromes (and

doesn't go into contraindications for herbs), but it's a very easy read and

introduces a lot of TCM concepts like the effects of Pernicious Evils, the

idea of Exterior and Interior conditions, and the classes of herbs.

 

I find any of the helping yourself with books by Bob Flaws

to usually be a good second step. They introduce a lot of TCM techniques of

healing like herbs, acupressure/ acupuncture, massage, diet (in some of the

books), etc. Plus, they have the advantage of often being specific to

something the person is especially interested in (and motivated to read).

 

If someone is interested in learning still more, I usually recommend The

Foundations of by Giovanni Maciocia. Since it's an

expensive book, I point out that their local library may be able to get a

copy on interlibrary loan. At that point if they really have an aptitude for

TCM and want to learn more, they know it and usually end up buying their own

copy to study.

 

But what's a good next step if the person can't get to a good TCM school? A

good next step for someone who is interested in starting to learn to apply

TCM and work with it?

 

Victoria

 

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[Guest guest]

Penel Eynde LeGrand wrote:

 

> If you live far from a city, you might want to consider driving the

> distance once a month or so for face to face training

 

I'm thinking about the whole diagnosis issue too. Gotta kind of

calibrate your senses to be able to take pulses, or determine the color

of a tongue coating. For someone to say " This pulse is thin, this is

fat, this is wiry, this is slippery " and get a sense of what those terms

mean is invaluable. I can't imagine doing TCM diagnosis without this

sort of one to one calibration.

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

>yes but X amount of documented hours of TCM study is required by the

>AOBTA and its been common practice for students of zen shiatsu here in

>Chicago to hire acupuncturists to tutor them for those TCM hours.

>To cut costs, a few have set up group tutorings.

>If an acupuncturist normally charges $60. per hour for therapy, X that

>by 3 students armed with lists of questions and you've got a rather

>intensive evening.

 

Thanks. This is a good suggestion too for those wishing to get more

training than books can provide.

 

Also, if you live in an area where there is a TCM healer, one might consider

working in her/his office. You might even be able to work out some

apprentice type of arrangement. If one is really lucky - like I was - you

may consult a healer for your health problems who is very happy to answer a

lot of questions. The herbalist I originally saw seemed very pleased that

someone was as interested and as serious about the subject as I was, and I

learned a lot from him. I in return gave him ideas on greenhouses and

growing herbs.

 

Victoria

 

 

>

>From my chats with practicing acupuncturists, it seems fairly common

>practice for them to have hired tutors _beyond_ their standard education

>in acupuncture college.

>

>If you live far from a city, you might want to consider driving the

>distance once a month or so for face to face training

>

>if only for a second opinion to our own attempts at self diagnosis ;-)

>

>Penel

>

>

>

> Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine

> Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine-

> Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine-

> List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner

>

>Shortcut URL to this page:

> /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine

>

 

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[Guest guest]

Chinese Traditional Medicine, " Judy Fitzgerald " <victoria_dragon@h...>

wrote:

> As some of you know I have been taking a TCM course from Roger

Wicke at the

> Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute. I was very favorably impressed

with the

> website and the two textbooks. But the course is something else

entirely,

> and has been a very big disappointment.

 

Hello to All,

 

I just joined this list the other day and have been reading through

the archives. First I would like to state that I am extremely

impressed Victoria with your writings and am grateful to have found

such a valuable source for information. It's one thing to restate

info found in books for the benefit of others, but your comments and

examples are incredible. You truly have a flare for TCM and I am

very pleased to make your aquaintance.

 

I am replying to this post because I am currently taking Michael

Tierra's East West Herb Course. It is a correspondence course and I

am currently on lesson 29 out of 36.

 

I have been very pleased with it. Each lesson contains reading

material with a test to fill out for each. I will say that the tests

have been rather annoying ... it boils down to finding the answer in

the material. Facts that I will never remember ... tedious stuff.

Most lessons however require us to write essays along with the test

and this is where one can take the ball and run. It is up to each

individual how much time and effort is put into this activity .... I

have chosen to do as much research as possible for each and

consequently have learned a great deal. The course is divided into 3

sections. The first being a general overview, the second

concentrating on the herbs themselves and the third section dedicated

to diagnosis and treatment. There are no grades doled out but we do

receive the tests and essays back with comments as to whether we are

on the right track or not. Where I have gained the most however is

through the weekly study group via space(chat room). Each week a

case is posted on his forum (real people, real problems) and we have

to come up with the diagnosis, treatment principle and treatment. I

have learned more from this activity then I ever could from a book.

There is a test at the end from what I understand but will not know

what's involved until I get there. If one passes ... you receive a

certification of course completion. Dr. Tierra also hosts a week

long seminar every year in California. These are optional but if one

hopes to eventually become a clinical herbalist then it's required to

attend 3 of them.

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

Hi Lynn,

 

Welcome and I enjoyed reading your comments about the course you are taking.

 

from,

another Lynn!

 

 

 

GDurst1774 <GDurst1774

Chinese Traditional Medicine <Chinese Traditional Medicine >

Friday, February 23, 2001 12:54 PM

[Chinese Traditional Medicine] Re: OT: Disappointed with course

 

 

>Chinese Traditional Medicine, " Judy Fitzgerald " <victoria_dragon@h...>

>wrote:

>> As some of you know I have been taking a TCM course from Roger

>Wicke at the

>> Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute. I was very favorably impressed

>with the

>> website and the two textbooks. But the course is something else

>entirely,

>> and has been a very big disappointment.

>

>Hello to All,

>

>I just joined this list the other day and have been reading through

>the archives. First I would like to state that I am extremely

>impressed Victoria with your writings and am grateful to have found

>such a valuable source for information. It's one thing to restate

>info found in books for the benefit of others, but your comments and

[Guest guest]

>I am replying to this post because I am currently taking Michael

>Tierra's East West Herb Course. It is a correspondence course and I

>am currently on lesson 29 out of 36.

>

>I have been very pleased with it.

 

Hi Lynn, Thanks for the compliments and the description of the Tierra

course. I've been impressed with Tierra's writings.

 

BTW, there are some articles by him over on acupuncture.com. You might want

to take a look at his " Integrating the Traditional Chinese Understanding of

the Kidneys into Western Herbalism " if you haven't seen it before.

 

Victoria

 

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 02/27/2001 4:36:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,

victoria_dragon writes:

 

<< BTW, there are some articles by him over on acupuncture.com. >>

 

Have you ever been to Michael's website? www.planetherbs.com. Loads of

articles in the " articles " section. He has also written ones on Integrating

the Traditional Chinese Understanding of the Spleen, Lung and Liver along

with an excellent one on the Five Stagnations. Good stuff.

 

Lynn