acupressure/acupuncture

[Guest guest]

Hi Shane,

 

You wrote:

 

> However I would caution you about moving into the acupuncture arena if

you have not had any formal training.

 

I'm thinking of only doing a few simple things at first --- perhaps the

point near the 5th toe that helps a breech baby to turn, or a few of the

points that help asthma attacks.

 

> Acupuncture is Mind Body and Soul not a cook book that you pull a

> standard

> formula out and prescribe that is western medicine.

 

Well, here's where I could use more input from the List.

 

1) IF the acupuncture points and the acupressure points are similar...why

does one need to spend lots of time on the theory and the Mind-Body-Soul

stuff? The few acupressure articles I've read seem to suggest that

acupressure is mostly just a matter of knowing where to press in order to

fix specific problems.

 

2) IF the acupuncture theory is correct and one is mainly restoring

energy flows along the meridians involved....why can't you just needle

the points that apply to the symptoms?

 

3) I've read that there are 2 schools of thought on acupuncture. One

school maintains that extensive training in TCM-Mind-Body-Soul-theory is

needed; the other school takes a more mechanistic approach and claims

that one needs to learn the points associated with a given set of

symptoms. Have their been any studies showing that one school

consistently outperforms the other school of thought when it comes to

patient satisfaction?

 

 

Sam

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[Guest guest]

>3) I've read that there are 2 schools of thought on acupuncture. One

>school maintains that extensive training in TCM-Mind-Body-Soul-theory is

>needed; the other school takes a more mechanistic approach and claims

>that one needs to learn the points associated with a given set of

>symptoms.

 

It's often the difference between merely treating symptoms and curing (if the

condition can be cured).

 

One can get some very impressive results with just the cookbook approach.

However, one can get some spectacular results with knowing the

TCM-Mind-Body-Soul approach and applying TCM techniques like acupuncture/

acupressure to TCM syndromes. Read the post on arthritis & rheumatism for more

insights into the difference between merely treating symptoms and correcting

Root problems. You can give the person herbs that Expel Wind Dampness and get

some really impressive results in terms of pain and other symptom relief. But

the problems keep returning and the person has to keep taking the herbs on a

regular basis to keep the relief. When you know how to diagnose the underlying

problem (the TCM syndrome) and treat it, you get spectacular results. In many

cases the person may be cured outright. In other cases the person will need

less herbs and/or acupuncture/ acupressure to control the problem. Or, the

person may only need the treatments once in a while.

 

Also, when you address the underlying problem, the Root, you're taking care of

other health problems at the same time. Let's look at an example of Bi pain with

a Dampness component. The arthritic pain and other arthritic symptoms aren't the

only problems which can manifest from an underlying problem of Dampness

accumulation. Some of the other problems which can manifest from Dampness

accumulation include edema, skin problems characterized by " weeping " and

draining sores, difficult urination, some cases of asthma (not all), diarrhea,

increased vulnerability to some viruses, obesity, and congested heart failure to

name a few. Dampness can manifest in quite a variety of ways. If one does not

address the Root problem of why the person tends to accumulate Dampness, you may

control the arthritic pain fine, but the Dampness will manifest in other

problems because it's never been corrected.

 

Let's look at asthma in some more detail. I have posted on asthma as a

manifestation of Kidneys Refusing to Receive Qi and listed some of the

acupuncture points Dr. Maciocia recommends. Now let's look at asthma as a

manifestation of a Liver imbalance, specifically Liver Fire Insulting the Lungs.

I don't want to go into too much detail on this yet, but basically what is

happening is that the Liver controls the smooth flow of Qi. If Liver Qi

Stagnates, eventually it will turn into Liver Fire. Fire tends to rise, and the

Liver Fire attacks the Lungs, preventing Lung Qi from descending, resulting in

breathing problems. Even though both Liver Fire Insulting Lungs and Kidney

Refusing to Receive Qi are conditions that involve Lung Qi flowing in the wrong

direction (not all asthma is due to rebellious Qi), the treatment for the two

are very different, in some aspects even opposites. Kidney Refusing to Receive

Qi is a variation of Kidney Yang Deficiency. A Yang Deficient person, especially

one who is Kidney Yang Deficient is a person who is very, very cold and tends

towards hypo-conditions. This person desperately needs warming up. A lot of the

acupuncture points and herbs recommended for this condition are warming and

tonifying in nature in order to correct the underlying Yang Deficiency and the

Coldness. In the case of a person suffering from Liver Fire Insulting the

Lungs, this person is too Hot. You warm this person up and you're going to make

the asthma worse instead of helping it. This person needs herbs and acupuncture

points that will sedate and cool and release the Heat. This person also needs

herbs to get the Qi moving smoothly so it won't stagnate and cause the Liver

Fire.

 

Even when treating people with asthma which is a manifestation of Kidneys

Refusing to Receive Qi, treatment is going to vary according to the individual.

In some cases you may need more Yang tonics because the person is severely Yang

Deficient. Other people may need Qi tonics in addition to the Yang Tonics

because there's also an underlying problem of Qi Deficiency. Treatments in TCM

are highly individualized. There are no one size fits all therapies.

 

Western medicine is geared towards treating symptoms. TCM is geared towards

identifying and treating causes. You can adapt some TCM techniques such as

acupuncture to Western medicine and get some impressive results without knowing

the TCM syndromes. But, you also can make patients sicker and even kill them if

you do not know the TCM syndromes - like in the case of asthma having a root

cause of Liver Fire or a root cause of Kidneys Refusing to Receive Qi.

 

Knowing the TCM syndromes also can mean the difference between being a competent

healer and being an extraordinary healer.

 

If you know the TCM syndromes - what you call the TCM-Mind-Body-Soul stuff -

you're going to find that you not only will be able to use TCM techniques more

effectively, you'll be able to use Western medicine techniques more effectively

too. You'll also find that many things that you thought were untreatable or

poorly treatable via Western means are very treatable and even curable in some

cases via TCM if you know the TCM syndromes and underlying concepts. A good

first step is knowing that some conditions are Heat and some are Cold, and that

Heat conditions can be treated with herbs or other techniques that cool and/or

sedate, and Cold conditions can be treated with herbs and other techniques that

warm and/or tonify. You can get some spectacular results that leave patients

very grateful just by paying attention to this very basic concept.

 

In general, Western medicine is better for trauma, and it was Western sanitation

techniques that enabled China to start to get its parasite problem under

control. But TCM from a TCM standpoint (knowing the Mind-Body-Spirit TCM stuff

and TCM syndromes) is better at treating many chronic conditions. Also, TCM is

the ultimate in preventive health care. A healer trained in TCM diagnosis can

spot developing problems long before they begin to manifest with conditions that

show up via Western lab tests.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Victoria,

 

Thanks for your input. We actually agree on much!

 

You wrote:

> Not only can emotions trigger physical health problems,

> physical health problems can trigger emotions.

 

Agreed, and Western medicine recognizes this.

 

> One can get some very impressive results with just the cookbook

> approach.

 

I don't think, given the time constraints of my medical practice, that I

can take several months (or longer) off work in order to take some of the

various acupuncture/TCM courses. But if I could get " very impressive

results " from a cookbook approach to acupuncture --- I'll be satisfied

with that.

 

> When you know how to diagnose the underlying problem (the TCM syndrome)

and treat it, you

> get spectacular results. In many cases the person may be cured

> outright.

 

I am sure this is very true. I see patients all the time who don't fit

into any " diagnostic niche " in the Western medicine model of disease, and

I don't have any good treatments for them (since I don't know what's

wrong). I wish I had a supplementary TCM model to rely on when the

Western model fails me, but there are no TCM practitioners anywhere near

my town, and from a practical standpoint I can't really do any

significant studies in TCM. So I'm thinking of doing some rudimentary

acupuncture for now, and seeing how it goes. I don't suppose there's a

cookbook for TCM diagnosis, is there? <smile>

 

 

Sam

 

 

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[Guest guest]

>> Not only can emotions trigger physical health problems,

>> physical health problems can trigger emotions.

>

>Agreed, and Western medicine recognizes this.

 

Unfortunately most Western doctors ignore this. Some like you don't, but the

majority do.

 

>I don't think, given the time constraints of my medical practice, that I

>can take several months (or longer) off work in order to take some of the

>various acupuncture/TCM courses. But if I could get " very impressive

>results " from a cookbook approach to acupuncture --- I'll be satisfied

>with that.

 

Here's my suggestion. Read through the previous posts in the archieves. Don't

worry about memorizing anything or understanding a lot of it. In fact, it can

seem rather overwhelming. What you're doing when you do this is building a

foundation that a lot of facts can stick to naturally in the future. Some of the

posts contain information that you can start to incorporate and use right away.

 

Once you have an overview of the TCM concepts, you'll find that it starts to

make a lot of sense and facts will start sticking without your having to

memorize them. This won't be like having to memorize the bones and muscles.<G>

 

After doing this and getting an overview, if you decide TCM is for you, I

recommend ordering the two texts of the Rocky Mountain Herbal Institute.

They're not that expensive, and they're extremely well written. Wicke has a PhD

in BioMedical Engineering and used to do Western medical research. He's also an

extremely good teacher and writer. He has the best approach to teaching

diagnosis that I've seen so far. Very logical and step by step.

 

>I am sure this is very true. I see patients all the time who don't fit

>into any " diagnostic niche " in the Western medicine model of disease,

 

Speaking as a patient, it was so wonderful to discover TCM and see these

symptoms that don't fit in Western medicine models fit TCM models. The odd

symptoms actually were textbook TCM, and easy for the herbalist I saw to

diagnose. It was even more wonderful to start getting improvement. As long as I

stay on the TCM treatments, I continue to improve gradually. (Kidney Yang

Deficiency, Dampness, and Phlegm can be very slow to treat, especially when

they've been going on for decades.) As I learn more and incorporate it, I take

bigger steps upward in terms of energy and overall functioning. BTW, a lot of

people get involved in TCM because they get such positive results with health

problems.

 

>and

>I don't have any good treatments for them (since I don't know what's

>wrong). I wish I had a supplementary TCM model to rely on when the

>Western model fails me, but there are no TCM practitioners anywhere near

>my town, and from a practical standpoint I can't really do any

>significant studies in TCM.

 

This must be very frustrating for you. Here's another suggestion. Depending on

the laws of your state, hire a certified TCM herbalist or acupuncturist or agree

to let one practice under you. That's what a lot of doctors are doing.

Personally, I prefer using both Western medicine and TCM. The two together are

greater than the sum of the parts. You will learn from the certified TCM healer,

and the TCM healer will learn from you. Together you can come up with a great

deal of help for patients.

 

>So I'm thinking of doing some rudimentary

>acupuncture for now, and seeing how it goes. I don't suppose there's a

>cookbook for TCM diagnosis, is there? <smile>

 

The best book I know of just to give you an idea of what some of the more common

TCM syndromes are is The Foundations of . It doesn't go into

all of them, but it does go into many of the more common ones. This is one you

can get on interlibrary loan. Please keep in mind that some of these points are

extremely small and hard to locate. The positions of some of them will vary

depending on the way the client is sitting or laying. Some positions are better

to measure from than others. For example, as you know the xiphoid process can

vary quite a bit in lenght, so using it as a reference for locating some points

can be shaky.

 

And feel free to ask questions.

 

Good luck to you.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

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Before you buy.

[Guest guest]

Sam,

 

Sounds like you have the patients interest at heart. I did not mean to come on

so harsh before. I just feel very passionate about TCM and keeping it a

respectful profession. I totally missed the fact that most MD’s do not even

acknowledge complementary let alone TCM. Having been thru considerable training

and still feeling this is a life time study I am cautious about just getting a

book and sticking needles. For me acupuncture and TCM is almost like a religion

that embodies all things. But I also know that in moderation it can also work.

Acupuncture in my opinion is very powerful as is acupressure. Acupressure I

believe is more widely utilized with the massage therapists and focuses more on

the Ashi (tender points) of a given meridian. Where as Acupuncture is focused

more on treating illness and bringing total balance and harmony to a person.

Actually both can achieve these states but acupuncture I think is quicker.

 

Victoria made an excellent suggestion in reading old postings. I am not sure

how she has acquired so much info about TCM but she is a real wealth of

knowledge and does it in such a way that it is easy to understand.

 

Even thou I do not promote cookbook TCM, I have listed a few books which I feel

are very good and some which will answer the questions that you have:

 

1. A Manual of Acupuncture: Peter Deadman (great for point location the

pictures are the best)

2. Acupuncture A Comprehensive Text: Bensky:(Main book used to study

acupuncture covers a wide range of topics)

3. The Book of Acupuncture Points Vol 1: James Tin So (here is the cookbook)

4. Treatment of Disease by Acupuncture: James Tin So (and another)

5. The Web Which Has not Weaver: Kapatuch (sp?) (Very simple easy TCM info)

6. Between Heaven and Earth: (also very simple and easy TCM info)

 

James So is a bit on the radical side a bit intense but he does provide some

cautions with certain things which I believe are valid. His books in my opinion

are only good for quick reference on standard points for XYZ illness and not

good text for anyone that is going to practice TCM as a profession.

 

Word of caution: Pregnant Women are very sensitive to acupuncture. Using

incorrect points can and will in many cases induce labor. LI 4 and most if not

all Spleen points should be avoided. I actually avoid about 80% of points with

this population. Maybe Victoria has feedback on other points to avoid with

certain types of people or illness.

 

Where are you located that there is not a TCM Practitioner. I thought most

places had such a person I live in Indiana and we are the last to get anything

and we have several.

 

Good Luck

Shane

[Guest guest]

Sam,

could you take one month off?

Then join one of my acupuncture courses in Beijing! At least you will learn

at the fastest speed possible in a PRACTICAL approach in the country where

it originated. I won't promise you that you will be an expert (I and all

Chinese in this country study TCM for 5 years), but you will be confident in

needling and can " cookbook approach " the most common diseases. Because yes,

there is a cookbook approach which is looked down upon, but you have to

start somewhere, don't you?

You will have a good basis of what it is about (which is NOT just sticking

needles into people) and can learn over the years.

You can't learn acupuncture from a book alone, but I don't have to tell you

that, do I?

Dagmar

****************************************

ACUPUNCTURE courses & clinics in Beijing Hospitals.

For more information, contact

dagmar-riley

****************************************

[Guest guest]

Dear Shane and Dagmar and Victoria,

 

Shane wrote:

 

> Having been thru considerable training and still feeling this is a

> life time study I am cautious about just getting a book and sticking

> needles.

 

I understand. Most physicians (MD's) feel that way about their training

and skills in medicine also! But if the truth be known...a lot of modern

Western medicine is cookbook stuff that could be done by almost any

intelligent person.

 

> Acupuncture in my opinion is very powerful as is acupressure.

 

Given the fact that acupressure is probably easier to learn...I wonder if

I should concentrate on that? But then acupuncture is probably more

emotionally satisfying to a patient than acupressure. And I think

Victoria said acupuncture works faster?

 

> 1. A Manual of Acupuncture: Peter Deadman (great for point location

> the pictures are the best)

 

I have this book, I think. It does show the sites fairly well...but what

it seems to lack is a *concise* list of disorders and what points to use

to treat those disorders. For example, I have lots of patients with

chronic low back pain. I have many more with chronic fatigue. I have

little to offer these patients.

 

My herbalist friends suggest various immune stimulating herbs, vitamins,

and supplements. I've used those things, but with limited success. It

would be nice if there was an acupuncture cookbook that said, for

example:

 

For chronic low back pain due to osteoarthritis or disc disease, use

needle points A, B, and C three times a week for 5 weeks!

 

For chronic fatigue (with all normal lab results), use needle points D,

E, and F twice weekly for 3 weeks!

 

Is there a book that is very, very cookbook?

 

> Word of caution: Pregnant Women are very sensitive to acupuncture.

> Using incorrect points can and will in many cases induce labor.

 

I was thinking of only offering them the toe point to help with breech

babies. Would that be ok?

 

> Where are you located that there is not a TCM Practitioner.

 

I'm in a small town in Tennessee. The nearest large city is two hours

away.

 

Dagmar writes:

>could you take one month off?

>Then join one of my acupuncture courses in Beijing!

 

Wouldn't that be lovely! But alas, I work for a group of physicians and

only have a few weeks off a year. And the cost of flying to China and

staying there would be very high, I would guess. As it is, I am not sure

any of the medical insurance companies will reimburse me for doing

acupuncture...so it would be hard to justify spending lots of money to

learn a skill that would probably never pay off. I'm really just trying

to learn a few basic syndromes and treatments to see if I can help a few

patients that Western medicine seems to have so little to offer.

 

> but you will be confident in needling and can > " cookbook approach " the

most common diseases.

 

That's what I'm hoping to achieve.

 

Victoria --- you mentioned yesterday some symptoms that were part of a

common TCM diagnosis --- and thus presumably treated with some specific

herbs and/or acupressure/puncture points. I went to the library today and

am trying to get via interlibrary loan those two books you mentioned.

Might some of the more common TCM syndromes and treatments be in those

books?

 

**********

To all:

I found a Lhasa Medical Supplies catalog offering Chinese HWA-TO (and

other) needles. I'm thinking of ordering some 36 gauge needles (with

copper handles and tubes)in lengths of 1/2 inch, 1 inch, and 1 1/2 inch

as a start. What do you all think? Is that gauge and length about right

for a beginner? Or should I get 34 or 32 gauge, in the same or longer

lengths?

 

Thank you all for your help!

 

 

Sam

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[Guest guest]

>to treat those disorders. For example, I have lots of patients with

>chronic low back pain. I have many more with chronic fatigue. I have

>little to offer these patients.

 

Chronic low back pain may be due to Kidney Deficiency. In these cases no amount

of pain medication or muscle relaxants or anti-inflamatory drugs or

anti-arthritis drugs or whatever is going to help the problem for long or

adequately. You may blunt the problem some, you may postpone it, but the

underlying root is continuing to get worse and worse. Plus there's side effects

to the drugs in some people. The worse of this is not the chronic back pain

manifestation but all the other things that can develop as a result of the

untreated Kidney Deficiency that is getting steadily worse. Believe me, I'm well

acquainted with Kidney Deficiecny problems. After a while the chronic back pain

is one of the least of your problems.

 

And in the case of some back problems - like one leg shorter than the other or

misalignment or spinal stenosis - neither herbs nor acupuncture will do any

good. The person needs a chiropractor, a DO, or a surgeon.

 

Crash course in TCM in fatigue. It's due to Deficiency (Blood, Qi, Yang, or Yin)

or Dampness accumulation. With Dampness there will be an aspect of heaviness.

Yang Deficiency is the most severe of the fatigue, especially when the Kidneys

and the Spleen are Yang Deficient. What works for one usually will not work for

the others, and may even make the others worse. Ginseng is a Qi Tonic herb which

works great for fatigue due to Qi Deficiency. It won't work for a person who is

fatigued because of Blood Deficiency. This is why you need to learn the TCM

syndromes so you match the right herb and acupressure points to the root.

 

Some acupressure points for fatigue: Sea of Vitality (Bladder 23 and Bladder

47), Sea of Energy (Conception Vessel 6), Letting Go (Lung 1), Shoulder Well

(Gallbladder 21 - pregnant women should press lightly), Gates of Consciousness

(Gallbladder 20), Inner Gate (Pericardium 6 - yep, this is the one also

recommended for nausea), Outer Gate (Triple Warmer 5), Three Mile Point (Stomach

36 - has been mentioned quite a lot on here), Bigger Rushing (Liver 3 - another

that gets used for a lot of things), and the Third Eye Point (Governing Vessel

24.5).

 

These are cookbook acupressure points. (I don't know if all of them are safe for

a beginning acupuncturist.) Will they work? Definitely, especially the Sea of

Vitality, the Sea of Energy, Three Mile Point, and Outer Gate in Yang

Deficiency. Try them on yourself via acupressure. You'll notice an increase in

energy. It may be slight, but they help. The trouble with these general

cookbook points for fatigue is that they may not address the root cause of the

fatigue. This is why you need to be able to recognize and address the underlying

TCM syndrome. So you will know the appropriate other points for the individual.

 

BTW, TCM is giving the greatest help of any school of medicine to people with

CFIDS. More and more TCM healers and researchers are looking at CFIDS and

figuring out its etiology from a TCM standpoint and its treatment. It's not

know yet if it can be cured via TCM, but it is known that TCM can make some

dramatic differences for the better. (I'm especially impressed with the work of

Dr. Fratkin (sp?) in Colorado.)

 

>For chronic low back pain due to osteoarthritis or disc disease, use

>needle points A, B, and C three times a week for 5 weeks!

 

If you can teach some of your patients acupressure points that help with their

problems that they can do at home, they are going to love you. Many patients do

want to be just passive objects and put all the work on the healer, but many

want the knowledge and the tools to help themselves.

 

BTW, if you have someone complain of headaches that feel like their head is

caving in, suspect Qi Deficiency or Fluid Deficiency. But you'll need to know

the Qi Deficiency and Fluid Deficiency patterns in order to rule this in or out.

One symptom does not a TCM syndrome make. Well, not usually. There's quite a

bit of information on root causes of various headaches - like time of day,

loacation of headache, quality of the pain (dull or stabbing), etc.

 

>For chronic fatigue (with all normal lab results), use needle points D,

>E, and F twice weekly for 3 weeks!

 

TCM sometimes involves a change in lifestyle. For example there's Fatigue of

Deficiency (Blood, Qi, Yang, and/or Yin) and there's the Fatigue of Excess which

is the fatigue from overdoing. Sometimes it may be as simple as advising the

person not to stand so much. (Damages the Spleen.) Sometimes it may involve a

change in diet like more Yang foods for the Yang Deficient, more Yin foods for

the Yin Deficieny, or eliminating mucus-causing foods (milk being the worst

culprit) for those with Dampness and Phlegm problems.

 

>Wouldn't that be lovely! But alas, I work for a group of physicians and

>only have a few weeks off a year. And the cost of flying to China and

>staying there would be very high, I would guess. As it is, I am not sure

>any of the medical insurance companies will reimburse me for doing

>acupuncture...so it would be hard to justify spending lots of money to

>learn a skill that would probably never pay off.

 

This may be something that you end up doing for yourself just because you want

to do it. If not in China, then some other place. If it's your Tao to become

more involved in this, something is going to press at you from the inside until

you walk the path which is you. I'm not being esoteric here but extremely

practical. People who are not true to themselves end up grumpy and depressed and

dissatisfied with life. The zest goes out of living. On the other hand, it may

not be your path.

 

>I'm really just trying

>to learn a few basic syndromes and treatments to see if I can help a few

>patients that Western medicine seems to have so little to offer.

 

As you start to become aware of the TCM syndromes, you'll find that you'll start

to notice things about patients that you didn't pay much attention to before,

and you'll start to ask questions of TCM. For example, when you see a very pale,

moist tongue, you'll start to wonder if this could be a case of Yang Deficiency

(or Blood Deficiency if it's dry) and if the patient also has some of the other

possible signs of Yang Deficiency like feeling cold a lot, the abundant and

clear urine, the loose bowel movements, a tendency to hypo-glandular states,

etc. BTW, sometimes the patterns will be mixed. People can suffer from more

than one TCM syndrome at a time.

 

>Victoria --- you mentioned yesterday some symptoms that were part of a

>common TCM diagnosis --- and thus presumably treated with some specific

>herbs and/or acupressure/puncture points. I went to the library today and

>am trying to get via interlibrary loan those two books you mentioned.

>Might some of the more common TCM syndromes and treatments be in those

>books?

 

The Foundations of by Giovanni Maciocia. It goes into many of

the more common TCM syndromes, and Maciocia not only recommends points, he tells

the reader WHY he's recommending the points. It goes into a lot of other stuff

too like techniques of diagnosis, things to note in a client, etc. It's

excellent. It's mainly an acupuncture text, but once you know the TCM syndromes,

it's very easy to learn the herbs. The same basic principles that apply to

choosing acupuncture points also apply to choosing herbs. Like what Maciocia

says about the general guidelines to treating Kidneys Refusing to Receive Qi.

He says, " tonify and warm the Kidneys, stimulate the Kidney function of

reception of Qi, stimulate the Lung descending function. " (Foundations, p.255)

When you apply this to herbs instead of acupressure points, you choose a Yang

tonic herb that targets the Kidneys in order to tonify and warm the Kidneys, and

you choose a herb or herbs that direct the flow of energy in the body. Some

herbs will tend to move energy downwards. The latter is getting into it a bit

more deeply than I want to go into at this point. At this point just know that

each meridian has a proper flow of energy. Energy in the Lung Meridian is

supposed to flow from top to bottom in a person. If it's not, there's a

problem. Certain herbs will encourage the energy to start flowing downward

again. In other cases the proper flow is from bottom to top, and sometimes an

herb may be included in a formula just to encourage the proper direction of

energy flow (Spleen Qi Sinking manifesting as prolapse or organs, some cases of

hemorrhoids and varicose veins along with other factors, etc. treated with

acupuncture or herbs to raise the Qi.)

 

BTW, carrots have a downward energy, and if you're dealing with a kid that wets

the bed a lot, you don't want to feed the child carrots or carrot cake for

supper. It can increase the chances of bedwetting in some individuals.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Victoria,

 

You were kind enough to write:

 

> Some acupressure points for fatigue: Sea of Vitality (Bladder 23 and

> Bladder 47), Sea of Energy (Conception Vessel 6), Letting Go (Lung

> 1), Shoulder Well (Gallbladder 21 - pregnant women should press

> lightly),

 

I looked in my book " A Manual of Acupuncture " by Peter Deadman (the one

Shane suggested). I did not find points by those names in the index. But

perusing the index brought several questions to mind that have been

nagging me:

 

1) There are, I think, several different systems of acupuncture. They use

(I think) different nomenclatures and different points to treat the same

diseases. Has one system ever been subjected to scientific studies...to

see if one system is better than another?

 

2) Is the discipline of TCM sufficiently organized and standardized that

a patient could go to 10 different TCM practitioners with the same

complaint...and expect to get the same diagnosis and needled in the same

spots by most of the 10 practitioners?

 

3) Deadman's book might list from 3 to 20 points for any given illness.

How does one know which of the points to needle, and for how often?

Should I rely on Maciocia's text, when and if I can get in via

interlibrary loan?

 

Much thanks.

 

 

Sam

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Sam,

I think that what your looking for is the theory behind acupuncture. By using

chinese diagnosis (tongue and pulses) you decided which points to use. This is

why the theory is so improtant. I am certain that 10 different acupuncturists

would use different points to achieve the same effect. It really depends on how

one is trained. There is TCM, Meridian Style, Five Element and I am sure a few

that we don't even know about. Very much like each physician has his/her

favorite way of achieving results via testing or drugs, so does an acupunturist.

Lets say someone with a heat condition may display certain symptoms during a

visit so you pick points that will focus on that area at that time. But lets

say the patient returns and the syptoms have changed but you know that it is a

heat problem, you would probably pick different points the next time. Back

Treatments are a good example some times the pain will shift as it gets better

and so the points shift. Theory Theory Theory,!

that is why cookbook is not the best form of acupuncture. Rarely do we use the

same points for each treatment.

 

Shane

Oh and the points in the Deadman Book will be by the Meridian and the point

number not the name.

[Guest guest]

Sam,

First I will be interested to hear what Victoria has to say. But in Chinese

Medicine there is more than one way to skin a cat so to speak. With so many

schools of thought on what will work. But keeping in mind they can all work.

That is why the diagnosis is so important and keeping with Mind, Body and Spirit

in the process. Each person is so different each means to an end is different.

Meridian Style and TCM Acupuncture tend to work quicker were as the 5 element

style is slower but works as well. Usually 5 element will use fewere needles

and the other styles use alot of needles. So styles go right to the area and

stick Ashi Points (tender or pain areas) where other styles use distal points

and further away from the originating site. This as I see it is one of the huge

differences in East and West. West assumes that each person is the same and

they are to a degree. But how the mind and spirit will process the cure is very

different. Example: One of my soap box issues!

in Western Medicine is we program people. You have cancer and have about 10

months to live then when the person dies in 10 months the medical team stands

back and says see we got that one right. Probably not I would say in most cases

we program the person and the mind achieves the goal by reacting to the program.

In eastern medicine the focus is not quantity of life but the quality.

Therefore balance the person and make them comfortable and healing can take

place. If the universe is ready to receive the person they will go either way.

We in western world (me included since I have been in healthcare for many years)

assume that if all our fancy drugs and tests cannot heal this then we have done

all we can. When in fact we missed healing the mind and spirit. I am sure that

in your travels you have seen people when told they would die in a period of

time or that they would never walk again blew that off and went mental and set a

program in the mind and spirit that yes the!

y would, and they do.

 

I hope this helps to clear things up a bit. I never talk this much in these

group I usually stay silent and observe. Sorry for so much group time but as

you can tell I can be a bit passionate about acupuncture.

 

Shane

[Guest guest]

Sam,

I forgot to tell you that we are all acupuncture challenged in the beginning but

you have some excellent questions and seem to be getting the point. <G>

 

Shane

[Guest guest]

Dear Shane,

 

You wrote:

>I am certain that 10 different acupuncturists would use different

points

> to achieve the same effect. It really depends on how one is

> trained. There is TCM, Meridian Style, Five Element and I am sure a

> few that we don't even know about. Very much like each physician

> has his/her favorite way of achieving results via testing or drugs,

> so does an acupuncturist.

 

Well, that adds to my confusion <g>.

 

If a patient goes to 10 different Western physicians with a very, very

sore throat and enlarged lymph nodes --- the diagnosis methodology and

treatments will be very similar (history, physical exam, strep test, and

antibiotics if the strep test is positive).

 

If there is such a wide variation in acupuncture theories and treatment

points for the exact same diagnosis and symptoms...what does that say

about the reproducibility of the results and the validity of the

energy/chi theory?

 

Acupuncture-challenged, with lots to learn...

 

 

Sam

 

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[Guest guest]

Sam

I find you very enjoyable and it has been interesting to see your e-mails change

as the plot thickens. You appear to have a great sense of humor and are able to

laugh <G>

 

We cannot be effectgive healers if we don't laugh, ask questions and search for

the truth. Thanks for hanging in there most would have said this is to much

energy and walked away to practice in their own way. I am in Indiana which

depending on how far in TN you are would be close enough for you to drive. We

have quarterly meetings on a Saturday called the Indiana Acupuncture Alliance,

this might be a good way for you to network and meet someone with far more info

than myself and get what you need. There are TCM people, MD's, DO'S and they

are a really good group. They usually bring a case to discuss and or a

demonstration. They are planning workshops in the future. WE have a guy that

will be covering cupping in the near future and he is a great D.O. trained in

TCM.

 

Shane

[Guest guest]

>I hope this helps to clear things up a bit. I never talk this much in these

group I usually stay silent and observe. Sorry for so much group time but as

you can tell I can be a bit passionate about acupuncture.

 

I'm tickled that you have so much to say and have been saying it! You've been

saying a lot of important things, and saying them well.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

[Guest guest]

Ok Sam,

You wrote: Now, you and Shane point out the complexities of TCM, and how 10

different acupuncturists might arrive at 10 different diagnoses and

prescribe 10 different treatment plans and series of acupuncture points.

 

The diagnosis would be the same in most if not all cases. However the

technique and approach would be far different. Some acupuncturists like to

move the process fast others slow. Some patients need to be taken slow

others quicker. We westerners believe in fast so most styles here are for

quick results. Five element is slower. Points will be different depending

on your belief.

 

1) There is a large placebo effect which might be responsible for the

healing in many or most people?

 

For those of us that see miracles with acupuncture every day this is just not

possible. We use acupuncture at the hospital that I work to detox people.

Many of these addicts do not believe that acupuncture works so they show up

to prove me wrong. Guess what they benefit the most. We also have seen a

decrease in meds for withdrawal and a variety of other benefits.

Placebo.............if it is then the Chinese have pulled the wool over the

worlds eyes for over 2000 years lol lol lol

 

If needling points close to the pain, or far away from the

pain, or on opposite sides of the body from the pain, or at sites

completely unrelated to the pain all work....doesn't that make the theory

a little suspect?

 

Understanding the energy flow, meridians, and the theory of what each body

part does as well as the fluids of the body (in Chinese terms of course) then

this all comes together.

 

Or

is there more agreement among TCM schools and practitioners than you all

seem to imply?

 

I think they agree to an extent but again it depends on the style of

acupuncture. Keep in mind most schools are run by Americans therefore it is

bastardized to an extent. teeeeeheeeeeteeeeehheeeeee

 

I realize I am way out of my league talking to you skilled and

experienced folks,

 

Not out of your league you just know different things...........actually when

east/meets west it can be a really cool experience but you must respect both

for what they can achieve and what the limitations are. Both have a place I

think its great that you want to use these things I just want you to have the

facts so it is more effective with higher results.

 

 

Talk with you soon.

Shane

[Guest guest]

>If a patient goes to 10 different Western physicians with a very, very

>sore throat and enlarged lymph nodes --- the diagnosis methodology and

>treatments will be very similar (history, physical exam, strep test, and

>antibiotics if the strep test is positive).

 

Very, very sore throat and enlarged lymph nodes are not symptoms specific to a

single medical problem. They can indicate strep throat, mononucleosis, CFIDS,

or any number of viral or bacterial infections. In some cases they can be

triggered by allergies, but infection is the more probable cause.

 

The same thing happens in TCM, and this is part of what is confusing not only to

you but to just about every new student. For example, if you have a client come

in who complains of feeling cold most of the time and having problems warming

up, that's Yang Deficiency. But Yang Deficiency of what? More information is

needed to determine if it's Spleen Yang Deficiency, Kidney Yang Deficiency, etc.

So, just as a competent Western doctor doesn't stop trying to identify the cause

just because the strep throat culture is negative but considers other

possibilities, the TCM healer also narrows down the possibilities via tongue

diagnosis, pulse diagnosis, questioning, and observing. The advantage to TCM is

you do this on the spot and don't have to wait for lab results to come back.

 

Something else that is confusing to you is the difference between the Western

medicine paradigm and the paradigm. There are some glaring

deficienies in the way research is done in the West. There doesn't have to be,

but they are. Western researchers in any scientific field (not just medicine)

are taught to test one variable at a time. This is cheaper and easier to do

than testing more at one time. Most of the time it works very well, but

sometimes it's not sufficient. For example, one reason researchers had such a

hard time identifying why the rate for Burkitt's lymphona is so high in some

African nations is they were looking for a single causative factor. It turned

out there's a dual causative factor - Epstein Barr Virus and malaria.

 

A lot of this very singular thinking seeps into the practice of medicine in the

West. Doctors are accustomed to thinking of medical problems as single

entities. For example, if a patient comes in with strep throat, the patient

couldn't possibly also have mononucleosis or allergies. In fact, doctors and

researchers used to believe that if a patient had one virus, s/he couldn't also

have another at the same time. The rise of hepatitis cases in the 1970s in

which patients were registering positive to both A and B and other viruses put

an end to this belief. But the idea of one problem at a time per patient still

dominates the unconscious and conscious thinking of a lot of doctors.

 

Western medicine seeks to reduce every case to a single entity. On the other

hand, has an understanding of the complexity of health and

illness built into it. You're not going to understand what I mean by this until

you start reading more on the theory of TCM, but I'll try to give you some

information here.

 

The best TCM schools will start off by teaching students the bare basics of TCM

diagnosis but immediately will present students with complicated cases. This is

very rough on the students, but if they stick with their studies they become

very, very good at diagnosis and treatment. The point is you learn right from

the beginning to deal with cases with mixed patterns because there is more than

one root. You don't fall into the trap of thinking just because this client has

Blood Deficiency, nothing else could possibly be wrong. For example, a client

may suffer from Blood Deficieny, Qi Deficiency, Yang Deficiency, Dampness

Accumulation, and Qi Stagnation all at the same time. The individualized herbal

formula for the client would include at least one herb that is a Blood Tonic

(like Dang Gui - Rx Angelicae Sinensis - or cooked rehmannia), at least one Qi

Tonic herb (like ginseng or astragalus), at least one Yang Tonic herb like Semen

Cuscutae or Herba Epimedii), an herb like Fu Ling (Poria) or Rhizoma Dioscoreae

to drain Dampness, and an herb like tangerine peel or nutgrass rhizome to get

the Stagnant Qi moving. In addition the herbalist may include a small amount of

licorice root in order the harmonize the formula and direct it into all 12

meridians.

 

There are other herbs besides the ones I listed that will do each of these jobs.

For example, plantago seed also will drain Dampness, but I didn't list it as a

possibility in this case. Why? Because plantago seed has a Cold energy, and this

person already is too Cold (Yang Deficiency). So I stuck with herbs with

neutral or warming energy. Now I could use plantago seed with this person if

there were some other specific properties of plantago seed that would benefit

him/her. What I would do is to add in some dried ginger (Hot energy) to balance

out the thermal energy of the formula to where it won't make the person more

Cold and aggravate existing health problems.

 

I know all this is going to sound very confusing to you at first. But the more

acquainted you get with TCM, the more things start to make sense.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

[Guest guest]

>1) There are, I think, several different systems of acupuncture. They use

>(I think) different nomenclatures and different points to treat the same

>diseases. Has one system ever been subjected to scientific studies...to

>see if one system is better than another?

 

You're thinking in either/or terms. If A is good then B is no good. The

question should be which school is better for what. I get the impression from

things I've read that the 5 Element school is better for balancing a person

emotionally. Other schools may be equally good for other things. It's not an

either/or situation.

 

>2) Is the discipline of TCM sufficiently organized and standardized that

>a patient could go to 10 different TCM practitioners with the same

>complaint...and expect to get the same diagnosis and needled in the same

>spots by most of the 10 practitioners?

 

Yes, to the diagnosis question if the complaint is a single root. Say for

example a patient comes in with Yin Deficiency, and Yin Deficiency is the only

problem, each of the 10 if they are halfway competent would be able to diagnose

Yin Deficiency. Hmmmm, malar flush, a little nervous and agitated, feels hot

most of the time and desires coolness, is especially hot in the afternoons,

suffers night sweats, desires cold drinks and is often thirsty, tongue tissue is

red and tongue may have fissures, tongue coat is absent or very thin white to

yellow, and pulse is weak or thready and rapid. Yep, that's Yin Deficiency.

 

This is a very easy diagnosis. You will see clients with one root problem. But

most of the people you see will have multiple problems. As the number of root

problems the person has goes up, the more the diagnostic skills of the healer

will be taxed. Especially if Phlegm is present. The cases involving Phlegm

will be the most difficult to diagnose and treat.

 

As far as treating a straight-forward problem like just Yin Deficiency, there

are quite a few acupuncture points and herbs you can choose to tonify Yin. In a

straight-forward case with only one root, any one usually is going to be as good

as another. Usually. Now there are some points which are more powerful than

others, and you will learn which these are.

 

It's when you treat mixed patterns where more than one root is present that you

will be making judgment calls on points. For example, take a case of a person

who is both Yang and Yin Deficient. (These cases are not uncommon.) The single

most powerful point for increasing Yang energy in the body is Governing Vessel

4, the Gate of Life. But, it's contraindicated if there is Heat anywhere in the

body. Yin Deficiency is Deficiency Heat. This point would be contraindicated in

most cases of Yang Deficiency with Yin Deficiency (unless there also is a very,

very severe case of Internal Cold in which case you still would be very careful

in using it.) The reason you would hestitate to use it in mixed patterns where

both Yang and Yin Deficiency obviously are present is it tonifies Yang all over

the body. Some of the body is over-heating because of Yin Deficiency in that

part of the body, and using this point would warm the entire body, including the

areas that are too Hot already. So what you would do is determine which

meridians/systems are Yang Deficient and which is/are Yin Deficient, and choose

approprate points. Say it's Kidney Yang Deficiency and Stomach Yin Deficiency.

You choose points specific to tonifying Yang in the Kidney meridian and points

that are specific to increasing Yin in the Stomach.

 

>3) Deadman's book might list from 3 to 20 points for any given illness.

>How does one know which of the points to needle, and for how often?

 

By learning the theory.

 

>Should I rely on Maciocia's text, when and if I can get in via

>interlibrary loan?

 

Maciocia's Foundations book is an excellent starting point. As you learn more

and become more confident in your abilities, you'll be able to finetune and

individualize treatment depending on each person's uniqueness. In the

meanwhile, Maciocia's book is an excellent start to learning the basics.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

[Guest guest]

reading old postings. I am not sure how she has acquired so much info about TCM

but she is a real wealth of knowledge and does it in such a way that it is easy

to understand.

 

Thanks.

 

I accumulated the knowledge because of a strong need to know for my sake and

that of loved ones.

 

I saw a TCM herbalist who was very good. I was so favorably impressed that I

started asking him all the questions I could think of (which he was good to

answer) and reading everything I could get my hands on. I began to figure out

more things that would help me and experiment cautiously. Eventually I felt the

need to start formal training.

 

I don't know exactly why but from the beginning this came fairly easy to me and

made sense. I think a big part of the reason was all the problems I have had

with CFIDS over the years. In order to get any relief from the CFIDS I began to

come up with different ways of looking at healing and approaching it. It just

so happens that what I discovered and realized on my own in those pre-TCM years

was in line with how illness develops and is treated in TCM. So there was no

philosophical barricade in my case. It all just sort of fell into place for me

from the beginning.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

[Guest guest]

> Now, you and Shane point out the complexities of TCM, and how 10

> different acupuncturists might arrive at 10 different diagnoses and

> prescribe 10 different treatment plans and series of acupuncture

points.

 

This is NOT what I said. I said that if the imbalance is

straightforward that all 10 would arrive at the same diagnosis if

they are halfway competent. It's when multiple roots are present

(complex cases) that there will be differences in diagnosis. This is

the same thing that happens in Western medicine. Degrees of

competency, skill, and talent differ among Western doctors. Most are

competent as long as the case isn't too complex. Then there are the

extraordinary diagnosticians that you usually find in teaching

schools with research facilities. Finally, there's some Western

doctors who are so incompetent in Western medicine that I don't see

how they keep their licenses. You'll run across the same range of

skills among TCM healers, including some who are incompetent. Most

are very competent. However, just like in Western medicine, some are

extremely gifted when it comes to diagnosis. They not only can catch

every imbalance there is in a client in complex cases with mixed

pattern indicators, they can provide a probable etiology. There are

TCM healers that other TCM healers refer their most difficult cases

to just like you refer your puzzling cases to the nearest medical

school.

 

> If this is true, does it imply that:

 

As I said, it's not true.

 

> 1) There is a large placebo effect which might be responsible for

the

> healing in many or most people?

 

Acupuncture has been shown to work on animals.

 

I would caution you against the Western tendency to attribute

anything not readily understood to a placebo effect. There is such a

thing as a placebo effect, but it's often over-used and

inappropriately used explanation. The danger in using it as an

automatic explanation is that our understanding of biology and the

body never advances beyond what it is at present. Instead of doing

the research and work and asking the questions that expand our model

of healing and our understanding, we just write things off to being a

placebo effect.

 

> 2) That there might be a lot more remaining to be discovered or

explained

> about the chi/meridian/energy flow theory of disease? Putting this

> another way: If needling points close to the pain, or far away from

the

> pain, or on opposite sides of the body from the pain, or at sites

> completely unrelated to the pain all work....doesn't that make the

theory

> a little suspect?

 

No. As Shane put it there's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

When you start to practice on yourself with acupuncture or

acupressure, pay attention to your body. Even though you press a

point say on the foot, you may feel a sensation like a twinge in

another part of your body. As long as you continue to press the

point, you feel the twinge or other strange sensation. The moment you

let up on the point, the twinge disappears. You press the point

again, and you feel the twinge again. This can be a sign that you

need to work this point. If you work it for a while, you usually

will discover that eventually the twinge in another part of the body

finally stops. You have just resolved something.

 

The odd thing about these twinges in other parts of the body is that

they usually can't be accounted for by nerve pathways or referred

pain/sensations. Sometimes they can be, but a lot of the time they

can't. Something is going on that can't be accounted for by our

current understanding of the body.

 

Remember, there are any number of points that can accomplish a

specific action. In simple cases of one root problem, it's often

just a matter of choice or familiarity which points to use. In more

complex cases, then you start making decisions based on other

properties of the point because some points do become better than

others then.

 

> Victoria -- I agree with your comment on variables and multiple

disorders

> being present at the same time in sick individuals. However, without

> controlling for the variables --- how can you reliably test to see

which

> treatment works best?

 

First of all, the fault that some TCM healers find with Western

research methods is that they don't control the test groups tightly

enough. Like in the case of asthma drugs. They almost never

differentiate between causes of asthma. A very well-designed test

would use different test populations based on the root causes of the

asthma in order to determine exactly which types of asthma the drug

works on, which it does nothing on, and which asthmatics it might

even make sicker.

 

Second, there is no such thing as a completely controlled test on

humans. To even try to conduct one would be unethical, immoral, and

probably illegal. It would involve controlling everything in the

test subjects' lives. They would all eat at the same time, go to bed

at the same time, eat exactly the same food, etc. In other words,

you'd put them into a cage and control every aspect of their lives.

 

Again, you're thinking in terms of either/or when you ask which

treatment works best. Treatment A may work better for the first

person whereas treatment B may work better for the second person

because of different root causes. A treatment may work on a majority

of people with say diabetes. But to the person that the treatment

doesn't work on, the treatment is no good for him or her. Another

treatment which doesn't work on most people might work wonderfully on

him or her. Does this mean that the first treatment is the better

treatement because it works on more people? No. The first treatment

is the best for the people it works on; the second treatment is best

for the people it works on.

 

One thing that TCM tries to do is to identify exactly which treatment

will work the best for a given individual. The best treatment is

what works best for the individual in the individual case -

regardless of how it works on others.

 

> questions, I will cease and just " lurk " for a while. I am just a

simple

> country doc trying to find a way to help some of his poor patients

(who

> cannot afford to travel to a TCM healer or to an acupuncturist) get

some

> relief from disorders that currently defy my Western training and

skills.

 

They're going to keep defying your training and skills until you

start learning TCM from a TCM standpoint. This means the theory and

the TCM syndromes. It means learning to think like a TCM healer. This

doesn't mean that you toss away your Western medical training in a

spirit of " Eureka! I have found the Holy Grail of Healing. It and it

alone is the One, True Way of Healing, and all previous attempts at

healing are false prophets and idols! " It means that you keep a lot

of your Western training, you expand your world view to include TCM.

You become skilled at both. Sometimes you'll rely more heavily on

Western, other times on TCM, depending on the individual case and

what the client needs and what will work best for the person.

 

The only way to learn this stuff is to jump into it. Dagmar has made

you an excellent offer. Write her about some cases you know of, and

let her demonstrate for you the things that a TCM healer looks for

and how the logic works. I want to impress upon you that she will

NOT be diagnosing patients' problems long distance. What she will be

doing is helping you to learn what TCM healers consider and how it's

done. You'll be getting some individualized tutoring in recognizing

TCM syndromes and the things that a TCM healer considers. And I'm

sure that you know that you don't give names of case studies or

birthdays or any info that could identify a person. Just the symptoms.

 

And you're welcome to post on here any time. This is the most lively

this message group has been.<G>

 

And do read through the previous posts in the archieves so you'll be

familiar with some of the terminology and underlying concepts.

 

Victoria

[Guest guest]

>while. I am just a simple

>country doc trying to find a way to help some of his poor patients (who

>cannot afford to travel to a TCM healer or to an acupuncturist) get some

>relief from disorders that currently defy my Western training and skills.

 

Never discount what a country doctor with determination can do. Way back in

1974 I came down with CFIDS. This was 10 years before the outbreak in Incline

Village, NV first began to cause the world to become aware of what would become

known as CFS or CFIDS. I had to move back home I was so sick. I just plain

lucked up when I got home and got an old country doctor who because he listened

to me, believed what I told him, cared enough to try to do something, and used

his training and his mind to figure out something that might help, he started me

on B12 shots. This was 10 years before CFIDS was even identified. As it turned

out, he found a treatment that years later would become one of the treatments

that help a lot of PWCs. It enabled me to go into a partial and near-complete

remission. So I never discount what country doctors can come up with when they

care and try.

 

BTW, if you want more info on why B12 injections often help so much with CFIDS,

look into the research of L.O. Simpsom, MD, in New Zealand. Basically, many

medical disorders result in high percentages of nondiscocytes. For readers

without a medical background, nondicocytes are misshapen, inflexible red blood

cells that have problems making it through the smallest capillaries. The highest

percentages of nondiscocytes are found in people with CFIDS (PWCs). B12 is one

of the substance which promotes the formation of red blood cells that are shaped

right and flexible, and can make it through the smallest capillaries.

 

More and more research into CFIDS is looking at the

Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Adrenal (HPA) Axis. Hypothalamus involvement is one thing

that could explain some of the symptoms that PWCs get. There have been various

theories why the hypothalmus appears to be messed up in PWCs. Some researchers

believe that a virus is attacking the hypothalamus in PWCs. Others theorize that

there are lesions in the hypothalamus (though no evidence of any have been

found). Dr. Simpsom points out that the hypothalamus is particularly rich in

small capillaries. He believes that this and the high percentages of

nondiscocytes in PWCs may explain many of the symptoms.

 

In any event, B12 injections are one of the things that tend to help a lot of

PWCs. Note I said help. I wish I had known back in the 70s what I had and that

I needed to take precautions. Instead, I went right back into a lifestyle of

going to school and working though this time I was only working part time. But

it was too much for me, and eventually I had a second major flare-up. This one

was much harder to put into partial remission than the first one was, and this

time there was no old country doctor to put me back on B12 shots.

 

You do want to be careful with B12 injections because they can trigger symptoms

of polycythemia vera (too many red blood cells). This is not an indefinite

treatment for CFIDS. A PWC may need the shots for sometime - months - but not

indefinitely. And other things besides the B12 shots frequently are needed -

like lifestyle changes, better diet, digestive enzymes, magnesium, etc. in order

to control CFIDS and keep it in remission.

 

From a TCM standpoint, overwork hurts the Spleen, and there usually is Spleen

Deficiency in CFIDS.

 

Victoria

 

 

 

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

[Guest guest]

Sam,

 

You can learn so much by just starting to read. I have been reading

non-stop since December. I have purchased at least a half dozen books. The

ones I have found most helpful are The Web That Has No Weaver by Ted J.

Kaptchuk and Wicke's first volume, Traditional Chinese Herbal Science,

Volume I, The Language and Patterns of Life which is also very good and

Victoria quotes from it extensively on this list. If cost is an issue,

Kaptchuk's book is $15.16 plus shipping from Amazon. Wicke's book is $60

from http://www.rmhiherbal.org/index.html. If you haven't been to the RMHI

site, do visit it. There is lots to be learned from reading the site. The

Kaptchuk book will get you started on the theory. It does not include

information on acupuncture points, but will give you a good foundation to

work from. It does have pictures of the meridians.

 

Lynn

 

 

 

*****************************

Lynn Long, Reiki Master

http://www.rainbowreiki.com

 

Lehigh Valley Branch of the Reiki Cooperative

http://www.lvreikicooperative.com

 

->I realize I am way out of my league talking to you skilled and

>experienced folks, and if I am burdening the List with too many posts and

>questions, I will cease and just " lurk " for a while. I am just a simple

>country doc trying to find a way to help some of his poor patients (who

>cannot afford to travel to a TCM healer or to an acupuncturist) get some

>relief from disorders that currently defy my Western training and skills.

>

>

>Blessings,

>

>

>Sam

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