Guest guest Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 The problem with saving money is that you also get inferior products. I've spent well over $20000 trying to get my health and my daughter's health back to normal. NCD did it in a matter of days for a few hundred dollars. I hope Steve will get into contact with Rik Deitsch who owns the NCD patent and discuss this with him rather than posting his opinions, some of which are faulty in a public forum like a . Contact me if you need his phone/email, Steve. The product is not that difficult to understand and to speculate without going to the source really doesn't make much sense. I'm sure Rik would be happy to explain it to you if you contact him. If you've ever complained about the cost of heating your home, imagine the cost of heating the zeolite at 900 degrees for at least 5 hours which is what's done to make NCD. The patented process that the NCD goes through is far from cheap. The powder is refined over and over and tested in each of at least five stages for toxins and it is not bottled until it is toxin-free. Sure you can buy cheap stuff but how expensive is it in reality if it doesn't do the job? Several brands of " liquid " zeolite (total misnomer since zeolite cannot be liquified) have been tested and found not to contain even one molecule of zeolite. Others have been found to contain bacteria. I've had clients try the cheaper (and equally priced ones from the health food stores) and not only have they not had positive results, some have broken out in rashes and one person developed weird black lines on her skin after using an internet brand. I don't mind if people complain about the price but to call it inflated isn't exactly being truthful. Inflated pricing is when you put water in a bottle and call it liquid zeolite or use the powdered stuff that doesn't get into the bloodstream and add humic acid or fulvic acid which can be bought on it's own for a very cheap price. Both humic and fulvic acid can be beneficial, especially for plants, but to take a tiny bit and package it with some powder that probably cost them a few pennies at the most and then sell it for such a price that at $20 seems cheap is unconscionable. But in a world where Walmart mentality is king, such thinking will always prevail at the expense of innocent people's health. Let's buy cheap stuff at Walmart that lasts a year at best and is made by children in third world countries! Now I'm really annoyed! That's exactly what people are doing and that mentality is costing not just jobs but in this case people's health. I recently heard from a naturopath that he is thinking of buying a couple tons of zeolite powder and repackaging it with water. I guess that's one way to become a millionaire. It's sick if you ask me. Sharon Hoehner www.sharethecause.com/detoxqueen oleander soup , " Molly G " <mollyg wrote: > > Tammatha, NCD is Natural Cellular Defense, a liquid zeolite made by > Waiora, which is sold at a very high price by multi level marketing > groups. > > Steve Norton was just posting his findings on zeolite on 9-18-08. Go > to message #8377 and read that and the thread of messages below that. > I wouldn't buy NCD for the inflated price, but that's just my > preference...my money-saving preference! > > Molly :~) > > oleander soup , " Tammatha " <tammatha@> wrote: > > > > What is NCD? > > > > Tammatha > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 Sharon, I now find myself where I did not want to be. I am not anti liquid zeolite. I just don't believe that they have supported their claims. Please note that I have made no cancer cure claims for powdered zeolite. I have not claimed that liquid zeolite does not work. In fact, if the claims that liquid zeolite works so well with the very, very small quantities of zeolite contained in the 30 drops daily dose are correct then I think that 5 to 15 grams of powdered zeolite daily would be so much more effective. I didn't put all my information in my update because it IS NOT INTENDED to be anti liquid zeolite. Just a reflection of what I have learned. Which included the belief that powdered zeolite is a better approach than the liquid zeolites of which NCD is one. It is true that I did not get with Rik Deitsch just as I did not contact any of the authors of any of the studies or patents I found and evaluated. I intentionally did not respond to the post titled: " Natural Strategies to Kill your Cancer Zeolite Natural Supplements for Fighting Cancer" even though I believe that it contains misleading or false information because I am not on a campaign against liquid zeolites. Anyone who wants to use them are welcome to without criticism from me. Actually, I was hoping that my post would encourage others to relate their first hand experiences with zeolite, like you did in your post, because I consider much of the information already out there as unreliable, mostly due to the MLMs. But in response to your criticisms let me say the following: A few here here have stated that they have spent $1000.00 plus on liquid zeolites without benefit. Relative to Rik Deitsch, I did review his interview at http://www.litmuszine.com/feature/side_6.04.07b.html. I would like to note the following excerpt from that interview: "JR: There are a number of mentions on websites and discussion groups about “an upcoming study coming out of Duke” regarding the efficacy of NCD. Several of these reports occurring as early as March of 2006 suggest that this research was due to be published less than a month later. Can you provide a list of any ongoing studies on NCD zeolite? RD (Rik Deitsch): The following are the clinical studies that we have conducted: NCD therapy in healthy individuals without chronic exposure to heavy metal toxins: A Short-term (7-day) trial in five individuals to evaluate changes in urinary excretion of heavy metals. Urinary excretion was measured with Atomic Absorption Spectroscopy (AAS). NCD therapy in healthy individuals without chronic exposure to heavy metal toxins – An Intermediate-term (30-day) trial in twenty individuals to evaluate changes in urinary excretion of heavy metals. Urinary excretion was measure with Atomic Absorption Spectroscopy (AAS). NCD therapy in otherwise healthy individuals with chronic, employment-related exposure to heavy metal toxins (West Virginia Coal Miners) – A Long-term (84-day) blinded clinical trial in fifty individuals to evaluate changes in urinary excretion of heavy metals and determine longevity of the effect. Urinary excretion was measure with Atomic Absorption Spectroscopy (AAS). Additionally, hair and saliva was collected at the beginning and the end of the trial and measured for heavy metal content. Electrolyte levels with the use of NCD – A trial to evaluate changes in vital serum electrolytes in healthy individuals following 30-day NCD therapy. Exercise recovery with NCD – A trial to evaluate the effect of NCD therapy on post-workout recovery-time in competitive athletes vs. non-competitive participants. Our largest trial to-date included 300 individuals. pH balancing with NCD – A trial to evaluate the effect of short- vs long-term NCD therapy on serum and salivary pH in healthy and compromised individuals. The following in-vitro analyses have been performed to provide rationale for further human trials: An in vitro analysis was conducted to measure the affinity of NCD for volatile-organic-compounds (VOCs). Sixty compounds were tested to provide information to support a future trial in humans focusing on benzene and dioxin derivatives. An in vitro analysis was conducted to measure the affinity of NCD for uranium. This provides a rationale to study urinary excretion in patients using the NCD that have been exposed to depleted uranium sources. Most of these studies have been written and submitted for publication. As you must know, the peer-review process can take many months until an article is published. I cannot know with any certainty when these will be made available. I have presented many of the above studies in scientific meetings, which allows for the limited distribution of data. JR: Quite a few of the sites advertising NCD zeolite refer to an “informal” study conducted in Ohio with 70 or so stage 4 cancer patients in which a large number of patients experienced partial or complete remission. There appear to be no even unpublished data about this study, beyond these anecdotal reports. Can you provide any information about the accuracy of these reports, and about the nature or outcome of that study? RD: No. This ‘study’ was presented by Harve Kaufman at a meeting of Wairoa distributors and has been widely quoted since that time. I did not participate in it and have no direct knowledge of it. I have asked distributors to stop quoting these sources as they are unverifiable." Please note that the post " Natural Strategies to Kill your Cancer Zeolite Natural Supplements for Fighting Cancer" continues to reference the "study" regarding the 70 (or 65) or so stage 4 cancer patients. It is unimaginable to me that a study as important as that to NCD is not documented and is now "unverifiable". The post also states:"Another website claims that research shows that zeolite is virtually insoluble in the body, and that if it did get into the body it would be the "scientific marvel of the year." Perhaps this writer ignored or was not aware of the research with one liquid zeolite showing that 60% of it was excreted through the kidneys - a clear indication that 60% of it was getting into the bloodstream." OK, THEN WHERE IS THE RESEARCH???? Another claim that I have been unable to find any factual documentation for. Look again at the studies above that Rik Deitsch says have been conducted. None of them have to do with research regarding the excretion of zeolite from the body. If the study truly exists then it is incumbent on the claimant to prove the claim and not on me to disprove it. I do not need to talk to Rik Deitsch. Others have and I have benefit of that. One could go on and on regarding the MLM claims finding that time after time the claims are undocumented. That is why I put so little weight on what the MLMs publish. I don't have the time or interest to counter all the claims. You can accept or reject what I have said but if you plan to criticize me and my efforts then please be able to support your criticisms. If you are interested to better understand how MLMs work then read the book "Merchants of Deception" available free at: http://www.merchantsofdeception.com/ - Steve oleander soup oleander soup On Behalf Of SharonMonday, September 22, 2008 11:24 AMoleander soup Subject: Re:aflatoxins>NCD The problem with saving money is that you also get inferior products.I've spent well over $20000 trying to get my health and my daughter'shealth back to normal. NCD did it in a matter of days for a fewhundred dollars. I hope Steve will get into contact with Rik Deitsch who owns the NCDpatent and discuss this with him rather than posting his opinions,some of which are faulty in a public forum like a . Contact me if you need his phone/email, Steve. The product is notthat difficult to understand and to speculate without going to thesource really doesn't make much sense. I'm sure Rik would be happy toexplain it to you if you contact him.If you've ever complained about the cost of heating your home, imaginethe cost of heating the zeolite at 900 degrees for at least 5 hourswhich is what's done to make NCD. The patented process that the NCDgoes through is far from cheap. The powder is refined over and overand tested in each of at least five stages for toxins and it is notbottled until it is toxin-free. Sure you can buy cheap stuff but howexpensive is it in reality if it doesn't do the job?Several brands of "liquid" zeolite (total misnomer since zeolitecannot be liquified) have been tested and found not to contain evenone molecule of zeolite. Others have been found to contain bacteria.I've had clients try the cheaper (and equally priced ones from thehealth food stores) and not only have they not had positive results,some have broken out in rashes and one person developed weird blacklines on her skin after using an internet brand.I don't mind if people complain about the price but to call itinflated isn't exactly being truthful. Inflated pricing is when youput water in a bottle and call it liquid zeolite or use the powderedstuff that doesn't get into the bloodstream and add humic acid orfulvic acid which can be bought on it's own for a very cheap price. Both humic and fulvic acid can be beneficial, especially for plants,but to take a tiny bit and package it with some powder that probablycost them a few pennies at the most and then sell it for such a pricethat at $20 seems cheap is unconscionable. But in a world whereWalmart mentality is king, such thinking will always prevail at theexpense of innocent people's health. Let's buy cheap stuff at Walmartthat lasts a year at best and is made by children in third worldcountries! Now I'm really annoyed! That's exactly what people aredoing and that mentality is costing not just jobs but in this casepeople's health.I recently heard from a naturopath that he is thinking of buying acouple tons of zeolite powder and repackaging it with water. I guessthat's one way to become a millionaire. It's sick if you ask me.Sharon Hoehnerwww.sharethecause.com/detoxqueen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 NCD is tremendoulsy inflated as are all MLM products. They always have the " best " process, secret or formula. It's a mind game and many have been taken to task by the FTC (not my favorite entity) because of blantant false claims and advertising. Because I have researched for myself and deal directly with someone who is very knowledgeable about and has worked with zeolite, silver, gold, etc. (I am sure that there are many that are knowledgeable but at different levels) for many years (way before they were popular), I know exactly what it costs to make these types of products. Don’t be misled into thinking that some “special process” always makes the price go up – many times these special processes are either not needed or a good marketing “line.” I'm not saying that MLM products aren't always good. In fact, many of them are very good and people do get results (probably not the " inflated " results that we see in print); however, if you search long enough you will find products that will get the same results with the same ingredients for a much, much better price. I do agree that cheap products usually produce cheap results and that usually has more to do with the quality of ingredients and the excipients, flow agents, etc. that are put into products. In the world of MLM up-lines must be paid as well as the high-eshcalons sitting in their offices while all the " natural health consultants " (title given by the MLM companies to everyone who buys-in to the " family " ) do all the leg work and advertising. Most “consultants” end up with a garage full of product and crushed " dreams. " However, MLM companies know and understand that people will buy just about anthing that is recommended by “word of mouth” whether true or not. I would also love to know the telephone numbers of people who were healed of all of the disease and cancer that so many of the zeolite products claim. Espececially for the zeolite product that was sent in yesterday although I see them for NCD and other zeolite products. I know that those types of emails foster a certain amount of hope but I think caution needs to be urged. Being frequency enhanced is one thing (actually can mean different things to different people) but it does not mean that the people doing it know " what " they are doing. In fact, many don’t I would also like to know the names of the zeolite products that were tested and did not contain any zeolite. Were they tested by independent labs? Who? If so then the results should be made public. How exactly were they tested? Zeolite is a very useful product when used with a good protocol. I think that those trying to use the powder may come up with an inferior product but that is up to them to decide. There is a science to this. Remember that just because someone has a patent doesn't necessarily make them knowledgeable. It just means they have patented a particular formula or a particular " way " to produce something. Doesn't mean that it is the best or safest way. Testimonies are always anecdotal. Sometimes people will use a myraid of things to get well, but then focus on one product that supposedly “made all the difference.” That's not being truthful. I did a lot of things to get well and am always asked what one thing do I think helped the most. The answer is I don't think there was one particular thing that helped the most -- I think, in fact I know, that they all worked together synergistically. That's the way the body heals from disease because it needs support in so many areas and there is no one product that does it all. None. Be Well Loretta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 Sharon.I appologize. I was over sensitive to your comment. I meant it though when I said I valued your personal feedback on how NCD (zeolite) helped you and your daughter. Given how it helped you your support of NCD is understandable. I am very interested in how zeolite has helped (or not helped) someone. - Steve-oleander soup <oleander soup >oleander soup <oleander soup >Mon Sep 22 18:36:11 2008RE: Re:aflatoxins>NCDNCD is tremendoulsy inflated as are all MLM products. They always have the " best " process, secret or formula. It's a mind game and many have been taken to task by the FTC (not my favorite entity) because of blantant false claims and advertising. Because I have researched for myself and deal directly with someone who is very knowledgeable about and has worked with zeolite, silver, gold, etc. (I am sure that there are many that are knowledgeable but at different levels) for many years (way before they were popular), I know exactly what it costs to make these types of products. Don’t be misled into thinking that some “special process†always makes the price go up – many times these special processes are either not needed or a good marketing “line.†I'm not saying that MLM products aren't always good. In fact, many of them are very good and people do get results (probably not the " inflated " results that we see in print); however, if you search long enough you will find products that will get the same results with the same ingredients for a much, much better price.I do agree that cheap products usually produce cheap results and that usually has more to do with the quality of ingredients and the excipients, flow agents, etc. that are put into products. In the world of MLM up-lines must be paid as well as the high-eshcalons sitting in their offices while all the " natural health consultants " (title given by the MLM companies to everyone who buys-in to the " family " ) do all the leg work and advertising. Most “consultants†end up with a garage full of product and crushed " dreams. " However, MLM companies know and understand that people will buy just about anthing that is recommended by “word of mouth†whether true or not.I would also love to know the telephone numbers of people who were healed of all of the disease and cancer that so many of the zeolite products claim. Espececially for the zeolite product that was sent in yesterday although I see them for NCD and other zeolite products. I know that those types of emails foster a certain amount of hope but I think caution needs to be urged. Being frequency enhanced is one thing (actually can mean different things to different people) but it does not mean that the people doing it know " what " they are doing. In fact, many don’tI would also like to know the names of the zeolite products that were tested and did not contain any zeolite. Were they tested by independent labs? Who? If so then the results should be made public. How exactly were they tested?Zeolite is a very useful product when used with a good protocol. I think that those trying to use the powder may come up with an inferior product but that is up to them to decide. There is a science to this. Remember that just because someone has a patent doesn't necessarily make them knowledgeable. It just means they have patented a particular formula or a particular " way " to produce something. Doesn't mean that it is the best or safest way.Testimonies are always anecdotal. Sometimes people will use a myraid of things to get well, but then focus on one product that supposedly “made all the difference.†That's not being truthful. I did a lot of things to get well and am always asked what one thing do I think helped the most. The answer is I don't think there was one particular thing that helped the most -- I think, in fact I know, that they all worked together synergistically. That's the way the body heals from disease because it needs support in so many areas and there is no one product that does it all. None.Be WellLoretta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2008 Report Share Posted September 23, 2008 This email is a keeper. Thanks a lot. Duke Stone ----- Dallas, Texas Info --- On Mon, 9/22/08, Norton, Steve <stephen.norton wrote: Norton, Steve <stephen.nortonRE: Re:aflatoxins>NCDoleander soup Date: Monday, September 22, 2008, 6:11 PM Sharon, I now find myself where I did not want to be. I am not anti liquid zeolite. I just don't believe that they have supported their claims. Please note that I have made no cancer cure claims for powdered zeolite. I have not claimed that liquid zeolite does not work. In fact, if the claims that liquid zeolite works so well with the very, very small quantities of zeolite contained in the 30 drops daily dose are correct then I think that 5 to 15 grams of powdered zeolite daily would be so much more effective. I didn't put all my information in my update because it IS NOT INTENDED to be anti liquid zeolite. Just a reflection of what I have learned. Which included the belief that powdered zeolite is a better approach than the liquid zeolites of which NCD is one. It is true that I did not get with Rik Deitsch just as I did not contact any of the authors of any of the studies or patents I found and evaluated. I intentionally did not respond to the post titled: " Natural Strategies to Kill your Cancer Zeolite Natural Supplements for Fighting Cancer" even though I believe that it contains misleading or false information because I am not on a campaign against liquid zeolites. Anyone who wants to use them are welcome to without criticism from me. Actually, I was hoping that my post would encourage others to relate their first hand experiences with zeolite, like you did in your post, because I consider much of the information already out there as unreliable, mostly due to the MLMs. But in response to your criticisms let me say the following: A few here here have stated that they have spent $1000.00 plus on liquid zeolites without benefit. Relative to Rik Deitsch, I did review his interview at http://www.litmuszi ne.com/feature/ side_6.04. 07b.html. I would like to note the following excerpt from that interview: "JR: There are a number of mentions on websites and discussion groups about “an upcoming study coming out of Duke” regarding the efficacy of NCD. Several of these reports occurring as early as March of 2006 suggest that this research was due to be published less than a month later. Can you provide a list of any ongoing studies on NCD zeolite? RD (Rik Deitsch): The following are the clinical studies that we have conducted: NCD therapy in healthy individuals without chronic exposure to heavy metal toxins: A Short-term (7-day) trial in five individuals to evaluate changes in urinary excretion of heavy metals. Urinary excretion was measured with Atomic Absorption Spectroscopy (AAS). NCD therapy in healthy individuals without chronic exposure to heavy metal toxins – An Intermediate- term (30-day) trial in twenty individuals to evaluate changes in urinary excretion of heavy metals. Urinary excretion was measure with Atomic Absorption Spectroscopy (AAS). NCD therapy in otherwise healthy individuals with chronic, employment-related exposure to heavy metal toxins (West Virginia Coal Miners) – A Long-term (84-day) blinded clinical trial in fifty individuals to evaluate changes in urinary excretion of heavy metals and determine longevity of the effect. Urinary excretion was measure with Atomic Absorption Spectroscopy (AAS). Additionally, hair and saliva was collected at the beginning and the end of the trial and measured for heavy metal content. Electrolyte levels with the use of NCD – A trial to evaluate changes in vital serum electrolytes in healthy individuals following 30-day NCD therapy. Exercise recovery with NCD – A trial to evaluate the effect of NCD therapy on post-workout recovery-time in competitive athletes vs. non-competitive participants. Our largest trial to-date included 300 individuals. pH balancing with NCD – A trial to evaluate the effect of short- vs long-term NCD therapy on serum and salivary pH in healthy and compromised individuals. The following in-vitro analyses have been performed to provide rationale for further human trials: An in vitro analysis was conducted to measure the affinity of NCD for volatile-organic- compounds (VOCs). Sixty compounds were tested to provide information to support a future trial in humans focusing on benzene and dioxin derivatives. An in vitro analysis was conducted to measure the affinity of NCD for uranium. This provides a rationale to study urinary excretion in patients using the NCD that have been exposed to depleted uranium sources. Most of these studies have been written and submitted for publication. As you must know, the peer-review process can take many months until an article is published. I cannot know with any certainty when these will be made available. I have presented many of the above studies in scientific meetings, which allows for the limited distribution of data. JR: Quite a few of the sites advertising NCD zeolite refer to an “informal” study conducted in Ohio with 70 or so stage 4 cancer patients in which a large number of patients experienced partial or complete remission. There appear to be no even unpublished data about this study, beyond these anecdotal reports. Can you provide any information about the accuracy of these reports, and about the nature or outcome of that study? RD: No. This ‘study’ was presented by Harve Kaufman at a meeting of Wairoa distributors and has been widely quoted since that time. I did not participate in it and have no direct knowledge of it. I have asked distributors to stop quoting these sources as they are unverifiable." Please note that the post " Natural Strategies to Kill your Cancer Zeolite Natural Supplements for Fighting Cancer" continues to reference the "study" regarding the 70 (or 65) or so stage 4 cancer patients. It is unimaginable to me that a study as important as that to NCD is not documented and is now "unverifiable" . The post also states:"Another website claims that research shows that zeolite is virtually insoluble in the body, and that if it did get into the body it would be the "scientific marvel of the year." Perhaps this writer ignored or was not aware of the research with one liquid zeolite showing that 60% of it was excreted through the kidneys - a clear indication that 60% of it was getting into the bloodstream. " OK, THEN WHERE IS THE RESEARCH???? Another claim that I have been unable to find any factual documentation for. Look again at the studies above that Rik Deitsch says have been conducted. None of them have to do with research regarding the excretion of zeolite from the body. If the study truly exists then it is incumbent on the claimant to prove the claim and not on me to disprove it. I do not need to talk to Rik Deitsch. Others have and I have benefit of that. One could go on and on regarding the MLM claims finding that time after time the claims are undocumented. That is why I put so little weight on what the MLMs publish. I don't have the time or interest to counter all the claims. You can accept or reject what I have said but if you plan to criticize me and my efforts then please be able to support your criticisms. If you are interested to better understand how MLMs work then read the book "Merchants of Deception" available free at: http://www.merchant sofdeception. com/ - Steve oleander soup [oleandersou p ] On Behalf Of SharonMonday, September 22, 2008 11:24 AMoleander soup Re:aflatoxins>NCD The problem with saving money is that you also get inferior products.I've spent well over $20000 trying to get my health and my daughter'shealth back to normal. NCD did it in a matter of days for a fewhundred dollars. I hope Steve will get into contact with Rik Deitsch who owns the NCDpatent and discuss this with him rather than posting his opinions,some of which are faulty in a public forum like a . Contact me if you need his phone/email, Steve. The product is notthat difficult to understand and to speculate without going to thesource really doesn't make much sense. I'm sure Rik would be happy toexplain it to you if you contact him.If you've ever complained about the cost of heating your home, imaginethe cost of heating the zeolite at 900 degrees for at least 5 hourswhich is what's done to make NCD. The patented process that the NCDgoes through is far from cheap. The powder is refined over and overand tested in each of at least five stages for toxins and it is notbottled until it is toxin-free. Sure you can buy cheap stuff but howexpensive is it in reality if it doesn't do the job?Several brands of "liquid" zeolite (total misnomer since zeolitecannot be liquified) have been tested and found not to contain evenone molecule of zeolite. Others have been found to contain bacteria.I've had clients try the cheaper (and equally priced ones from thehealth food stores) and not only have they not had positive results,some have broken out in rashes and one person developed weird blacklines on her skin after using an internet brand.I don't mind if people complain about the price but to call itinflated isn't exactly being truthful. Inflated pricing is when youput water in a bottle and call it liquid zeolite or use the powderedstuff that doesn't get into the bloodstream and add humic acid orfulvic acid which can be bought on it's own for a very cheap price. Both humic and fulvic acid can be beneficial, especially for plants,but to take a tiny bit and package it with some powder that probablycost them a few pennies at the most and then sell it for such a pricethat at $20 seems cheap is unconscionable. But in a world whereWalmart mentality is king, such thinking will always prevail at theexpense of innocent people's health. Let's buy cheap stuff at Walmartthat lasts a year at best and is made by children in third worldcountries! Now I'm really annoyed! That's exactly what people aredoing and that mentality is costing not just jobs but in this casepeople's health.I recently heard from a naturopath that he is thinking of buying acouple tons of zeolite powder and repackaging it with water. I guessthat's one way to become a millionaire. It's sick if you ask me.Sharon Hoehnerwww.sharethecause. com/detoxqueen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.