Vegetarianisn - the neverending debate that needs to end

July 21, 2008

Let's end the debate, OK?

I agree with Dr. Lanphier vitually 100% and with my original post too.

The more raw vegetables and fruits you eat, the better - up to a

point. But not to the point of eliminating all meat from the diet for

most people unless you are actively fighting cancer.

The study appears to be a great one, albeit subject to many

interpretations, as well as praises and criticisms - and surely more

will come the more it is analyzed. The book may be a great read too,

and is probably worth anyone's time to do so, but I have already seen

enough reports to believe that it has been slanted towards the

author's personal opinions in many ways, which is a natural thing for

authors to do and is certainly a common thing for vegans to do - such

is often their passions for their beliefs.

If a person wants to be a vegan, for whatever reasons, then that is

fine - I just recommend that they research well and exercise all due

caution to make sure they are able to do so in a healthy manner.

I will continue to recommend a mostly or all vegetarian diet while

fighting cancer or other serious disease, and a diet that contains a

great amount of raw vegetables and fruit along with some healthy

organic free range, non-feedlot meat.

I know there are people here with strong feelings on both sides of the

issue, and we could argue the issues til the cows come home without

resolution - so let's just say enough said and move on, OK? This is

NOT the vegetarian debate forum.

I am not going to try to convince healthy vegans to eat meat, but

neither am I going to recommend people become permanent full time vegans.

oleander soup , " Tammatha " <tammatha wrote:

>

> We all have our own experiences in life and opinions but there is no

denying 20 yr scientific research this is not misinformation or

passion. It cannot be denied the ramifications either of what eating

animals is doing to humans and what it is doing to the planet. Why

" branch- out " when something was so benefical to the body and

environment, not to mention the animal. Compassion for others and our

earth is in turn healthy (mentally & physically) for us all as well.

>

> Tammatha

> -

> Dr. Loretta Lanphier

> oleander soup

> Monday, July 21, 2008 10:35 AM

> RE: Vegetarianisn

>

> Tony, I completely agree with you. Well stated. I think

discussing things like this is very profitable because what we put

into our body has a huge effect on whether or not the body heals.

>

> A vegetarian and mostly raw diet is always indicated when fighting

disease. There are several reasons for this:

>

> 1) It gives the digestive tract a " rest " since fruits,

vegetables, nuts, seeds, etc. are very easy to digest and thus the

body can focus more of it attention from digestion to healing. The

body has to put a lot of energy into digesting meat.

>

> 2) Fruits and vegetables when eaten correctly provide the body

with important nutrients. Fruits and vegetables contain water,

enzymes, oxygen (very important), and nutrients that the body can

easily absorb, transport and utilize IF the digestive tract is working

properly.

>

> 3) Fruits and vegetables can be consumed raw and thus you get the

full synergistic benefit. While some do promote eating meat raw, I

don't think this is a good idea considering the possibilities of

parasites and the fact that unless you have butchered the meat

yourself, you never know the circumstances or the handling procedures.

Eating raw assures the full benefit of all of the healing properties.

Steaming is next best and then cooking last. Over-cooking provides a

" dead " result.

>

> People usually feel better on some type of a vegetarian diet.

However, as Tony said, you must know what you are doing and I have

seen even some very knowledgeable people have to stop being vegetarian

because their body was breaking down. There is a lot of

misinformation out there being promoted by very passionate people --

but that doesn't make it truth in every instance or for everybody.

>

> Even my own dr encouraged me to " branch-out " a bit after healing

from cancer. This was very difficult for me to do since this is the

diet that helped my body to heal. After a while I realized that

eating some organic, free-range meat now and then actually helped me

to feel much better, but this was AFTER HEALING.

>

> Many vegetarians (those who eat no meat or dairy) look anorexic

and some even have a " bugging " of the eyes which usually indicates

thyroid concerns. They do not even have a healthy look about them.

And some even go to tanning salons so that they will " look " healthy.

Nothing wrong with tanning salons if used wisely, it's just that they

know they don't look healthy so a tan helps with that health " look. "

>

> There are a lot of people out there that will lead people down the

wrong path in the name of making a buck. And The China Study, as good

of a book that it is (I agree with a lot of it) is not the FACT or

" easy solution " that we may think. It is very easy to take

information and make it say what you want it to say. On another forum

someone gave a great synopsis of the book about how it was not

completely correct, but I didn't save the post. I regret that because

what was said was very good.

>

> " Campbell was able to draw a single unifying principle: 'People

who ate the most animal-based foods got the most chronic disease. . .

.. People who ate the most plant-based foods were the healthiest and

tended to avoid chronic disease.' "

>

> People have eaten meat for a long, long time and have remained

healthy. That IS fact. It's only in the last 100 years or so that we

have seen health decline so rapidly and there are many reasons for this.

>

> My grandparents all lived to be in their 90's. They grew up on

farms and ate " fresh and unadulterated " meat, milk, eggs and

vegetables grown in gardens. They got plenty of sunshine and exercise

and didn't have negative, visual media such as TV. Going to the

" picture show " was a luxury that not many could afford. People took

time to relax and had good sleeping patterns. They drank clean water

and sugar was a luxury. They took responsibility for their health and

learn how to heal themselves using herbs, etc. Families took care of

one another and often had grandparents living with them. Just a

completely different mind-set than what most people live today.

Certainly they had their stresses and as my Mom used to say " life back

then was not always as easy as the sitcoms portray. "

>

> We have adulterated everything in our lives that help to provide

good health -- food, water, environment, emotions, mind, etc. We have

pasteurized and literally cooked away all the healing qualities of

foods. Then we pre-package these foods into toxic containers that are

lined with chemicals and plastics. And we add toxic preservatives so

that they food can sit on a shelf for long time periods. This is most

likely WHY we see so much disease -- along with the fact that we

consume pharmaceuticals like they are candy. We are killing ourselves

in the name of convenience! Slowly but surely our fruits and

vegetables are becoming adulterated and soon, if Monsanto and Dow have

their way, the only type of fruits and vegetables available will be

genetically modified and/or contain vaccinations or meds. Sound

ridiculous? So did GMO foods 50 years ago. So did needing to

purchase clean water! Personally, I think it is imperative that we

teach our children and grandchildren how to grow organic gardens.

Heirloom seeds are another thing that will probably be in short supply

soon.

>

> Tony, I don't think you were being a grump and there was no need

to apologize for telling the truth. I have seen vegetarians get

cancer and I have seen vegetarians who look healthy and a lot who

don't look healthy. So when fighting disease, allowing the body to

rest and focus on healing by eating foods easiest to digest is

imperative. However, once a person is well it doesn't mean that

strict vegetarianism needs to continue as long as one is sensible and

eats modest portions of clean meat and fish. Once a person is healthy

and well, it's all about balance and making sure that what is consumed

is clean and pure as possible.

>

> Be Well

>

> Loretta

>

> I have researched diet and nutrition extensively and I also know a

>

> number or vegetarians. Yes, you can get all the protein you need from

>

> a vegan diet and you can even get all the amino acids and enzymes too

>

> - but you HAVE to know what you are doing. Too many vegetarians, for

>

> reasons of ethics or perceived health benefits, simply eat all fruits

>

> and vegetables and thing that is healthy. You have to eat the right

>

> mix and do so consistently for it to be healthy.

>

> If a person wants to be a vegetarian, that is fine - but please,

>

> educate yourself and be willing to eat the right varieties of

>

> vegetables, even supplementing if necessary.

>

> Some of the most experienced vegans ever - dating back to the 60's -

>

> put together a site detailing some of the problems and pitfalls with

>

> going vegan. Many of them stopped. The site is http://beyondveg.com/

>

> At that site, which I recommend anyone considering converting to an

>

> all vegan diet read, the have a very compelling section that debunks

>

> the myth of humans being herbivores.

>

> http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml

>

> Humans are clearly omnivores and meat has been a part of their diet

>

> for the entire 2.5 million years since genus Homo emerged. In other

>

> words, our bodies are adapted to include meat and to exclude meat

>

> entirely, while possible, is not what we are. And I might add that

>

> the myth about teeth is obvious - during the entire 2.5 million year

>

> there has not been one fossil of man that included the fangs and

>

> incisors of a carnivore, and yet there has never been a fossil of a

>

> non-meat eater found. Of course we do not have fangs and incisors

>

> like carnivores - we AREN'T CARNIVORES. We ARE omnivores.

>

> From the Natural Vegetarian Resource group itself comes this

statement:

>

> " All the available evidence indicates that the natural human diet is

>

> omnivorous and would include meat. "

>

> As they point out, humans have a choice and do not HAVE to eat meat,

>

> but meat is nevertheless a part of a natural human diet.

>

> Part of my research into anti-aging and longevity involved examining

>

> the diets of the longest lived and the most healthy peoples in the

>

> world. They ALL eat some meat. Granted that the most healthy ones eat

>

> only a small amount of meat and a lot of vegetables and fruits, but

>

> that is just what I recommend: mostly raw vegetables and fruits,

>

> nuts, seeds, roots, tubors, femented grain, no unfermented soy (which

>

> far too many vegans consume).

>

> I guess the bottom line is that we can argue this subject until we are

>

> blue in the face, but I will continue to recommend an almost entirely

>

> or entirely raw vegetarian diet for actively fighting cancer and a

>

> diet that includes some meat otherwise.

>

> Live long, live healthy, live happy!

>

> >

>

> ---

>

July 21, 2008

Passions & beliefs can also be felt in non-vegans no doubt. But compassion should be universal. I have no problem ending the debate, obviously it could be endless due to the fact that what we eat is such a religion to us all. We can never dismiss the pain and suffering to another being never helps anything or anybody regardless, we are responsible for it everytime we put animals products in our mouth. Health is also environmental and eating animals causes massive pollution. Animals are here for their own reasons, just like us.

It should also be recommended that whatever a person eats, it should all be researched and be exercised with all due caution. Vegan or not. Why should there be an exception for vegans.

Tammatha

-

Tony

oleander soup

Monday, July 21, 2008 1:15 PM

Vegetarianisn - the neverending debate that needs to end

Let's end the debate, OK?I agree with Dr. Lanphier vitually 100% and with my original post too.The more raw vegetables and fruits you eat, the better - up to apoint. But not to the point of eliminating all meat from the diet formost people unless you are actively fighting cancer.The study appears to be a great one, albeit subject to manyinterpretations, as well as praises and criticisms - and surely morewill come the more it is analyzed. The book may be a great read too,and is probably worth anyone's time to do so, but I have already seenenough reports to believe that it has been slanted towards theauthor's personal opinions in many ways, which is a natural thing forauthors to do and is certainly a common thing for vegans to do - suchis often their passions for their beliefs.If a person wants to be a vegan, for whatever reasons, then that isfine - I just recommend that they research well and exercise all duecaution to make sure they are able to do so in a healthy manner.I will continue to recommend a mostly or all vegetarian diet whilefighting cancer or other serious disease, and a diet that contains agreat amount of raw vegetables and fruit along with some healthyorganic free range, non-feedlot meat.I know there are people here with strong feelings on both sides of theissue, and we could argue the issues til the cows come home withoutresolution - so let's just say enough said and move on, OK? This isNOT the vegetarian debate forum.I am not going to try to convince healthy vegans to eat meat, butneither am I going to recommend people become permanent full time vegans.Tonyoleander soup , "Tammatha" <tammatha wrote:>> We all have our own experiences in life and opinions but there is nodenying 20 yr scientific research this is not misinformation orpassion. It cannot be denied the ramifications either of what eatinganimals is doing to humans and what it is doing to the planet. Why"branch- out" when something was so benefical to the body andenvironment, not to mention the animal. Compassion for others and ourearth is in turn healthy (mentally & physically) for us all as well.> > Tammatha> - > Dr. Loretta Lanphier > oleander soup > Monday, July 21, 2008 10:35 AM> RE: Vegetarianisn> > > > Tony, I completely agree with you. Well stated. I thinkdiscussing things like this is very profitable because what we putinto our body has a huge effect on whether or not the body heals.> > > > A vegetarian and mostly raw diet is always indicated when fightingdisease. There are several reasons for this:> > > > 1) It gives the digestive tract a "rest" since fruits,vegetables, nuts, seeds, etc. are very easy to digest and thus thebody can focus more of it attention from digestion to healing. Thebody has to put a lot of energy into digesting meat.> > > > 2) Fruits and vegetables when eaten correctly provide the bodywith important nutrients. Fruits and vegetables contain water,enzymes, oxygen (very important), and nutrients that the body caneasily absorb, transport and utilize IF the digestive tract is workingproperly.> > > > 3) Fruits and vegetables can be consumed raw and thus you get thefull synergistic benefit. While some do promote eating meat raw, Idon't think this is a good idea considering the possibilities ofparasites and the fact that unless you have butchered the meatyourself, you never know the circumstances or the handling procedures.Eating raw assures the full benefit of all of the healing properties.Steaming is next best and then cooking last. Over-cooking provides a"dead" result.> > > > People usually feel better on some type of a vegetarian diet. However, as Tony said, you must know what you are doing and I haveseen even some very knowledgeable people have to stop being vegetarianbecause their body was breaking down. There is a lot ofmisinformation out there being promoted by very passionate people --but that doesn't make it truth in every instance or for everybody.> > > > Even my own dr encouraged me to "branch-out" a bit after healingfrom cancer. This was very difficult for me to do since this is thediet that helped my body to heal. After a while I realized thateating some organic, free-range meat now and then actually helped meto feel much better, but this was AFTER HEALING.> > > > Many vegetarians (those who eat no meat or dairy) look anorexicand some even have a "bugging" of the eyes which usually indicatesthyroid concerns. They do not even have a healthy look about them. And some even go to tanning salons so that they will "look" healthy. Nothing wrong with tanning salons if used wisely, it's just that theyknow they don't look healthy so a tan helps with that health "look." > > > > There are a lot of people out there that will lead people down thewrong path in the name of making a buck. And The China Study, as goodof a book that it is (I agree with a lot of it) is not the FACT or"easy solution" that we may think. It is very easy to takeinformation and make it say what you want it to say. On another forumsomeone gave a great synopsis of the book about how it was notcompletely correct, but I didn't save the post. I regret that becausewhat was said was very good. > > > > "Campbell was able to draw a single unifying principle: 'Peoplewho ate the most animal-based foods got the most chronic disease. . .. People who ate the most plant-based foods were the healthiest andtended to avoid chronic disease.'"> > > > People have eaten meat for a long, long time and have remainedhealthy. That IS fact. It's only in the last 100 years or so that wehave seen health decline so rapidly and there are many reasons for this.> > > > My grandparents all lived to be in their 90's. They grew up onfarms and ate "fresh and unadulterated" meat, milk, eggs andvegetables grown in gardens. They got plenty of sunshine and exerciseand didn't have negative, visual media such as TV. Going to the"picture show" was a luxury that not many could afford. People tooktime to relax and had good sleeping patterns. They drank clean waterand sugar was a luxury. They took responsibility for their health andlearn how to heal themselves using herbs, etc. Families took care ofone another and often had grandparents living with them. Just acompletely different mind-set than what most people live today. Certainly they had their stresses and as my Mom used to say "life backthen was not always as easy as the sitcoms portray."> > > > We have adulterated everything in our lives that help to providegood health -- food, water, environment, emotions, mind, etc. We havepasteurized and literally cooked away all the healing qualities offoods. Then we pre-package these foods into toxic containers that arelined with chemicals and plastics. And we add toxic preservatives sothat they food can sit on a shelf for long time periods. This is mostlikely WHY we see so much disease -- along with the fact that weconsume pharmaceuticals like they are candy. We are killing ourselvesin the name of convenience! Slowly but surely our fruits andvegetables are becoming adulterated and soon, if Monsanto and Dow havetheir way, the only type of fruits and vegetables available will begenetically modified and/or contain vaccinations or meds. Soundridiculous? So did GMO foods 50 years ago. So did needing topurchase clean water! Personally, I think it is imperative that weteach our children and grandchildren how to grow organic gardens. Heirloom seeds are another thing that will probably be in short supplysoon.> > > > Tony, I don't think you were being a grump and there was no needto apologize for telling the truth. I have seen vegetarians getcancer and I have seen vegetarians who look healthy and a lot whodon't look healthy. So when fighting disease, allowing the body torest and focus on healing by eating foods easiest to digest isimperative. However, once a person is well it doesn't mean thatstrict vegetarianism needs to continue as long as one is sensible andeats modest portions of clean meat and fish. Once a person is healthyand well, it's all about balance and making sure that what is consumedis clean and pure as possible.> > > > Be Well> > Loretta> > > > > > > > > > I have researched diet and nutrition extensively and I also know a> > number or vegetarians. Yes, you can get all the protein you need from> > a vegan diet and you can even get all the amino acids and enzymes too> > - but you HAVE to know what you are doing. Too many vegetarians, for> > reasons of ethics or perceived health benefits, simply eat all fruits> > and vegetables and thing that is healthy. You have to eat the right> > mix and do so consistently for it to be healthy.> > > > If a person wants to be a vegetarian, that is fine - but please,> > educate yourself and be willing to eat the right varieties of> > vegetables, even supplementing if necessary.> > > > Some of the most experienced vegans ever - dating back to the 60's -> > put together a site detailing some of the problems and pitfalls with> > going vegan. Many of them stopped. The site is http://beyondveg.com/> > > > At that site, which I recommend anyone considering converting to an> > all vegan diet read, the have a very compelling section that debunks> > the myth of humans being herbivores.> > > > http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml> > > > Humans are clearly omnivores and meat has been a part of their diet> > for the entire 2.5 million years since genus Homo emerged. In other> > words, our bodies are adapted to include meat and to exclude meat> > entirely, while possible, is not what we are. And I might add that> > the myth about teeth is obvious - during the entire 2.5 million year> > there has not been one fossil of man that included the fangs and> > incisors of a carnivore, and yet there has never been a fossil of a> > non-meat eater found. Of course we do not have fangs and incisors> > like carnivores - we AREN'T CARNIVORES. We ARE omnivores.> > > > From the Natural Vegetarian Resource group itself comes thisstatement:> > > > "All the available evidence indicates that the natural human diet is> > omnivorous and would include meat."> > > > As they point out, humans have a choice and do not HAVE to eat meat,> > but meat is nevertheless a part of a natural human diet.> > > > Part of my research into anti-aging and longevity involved examining> > the diets of the longest lived and the most healthy peoples in the> > world. They ALL eat some meat. Granted that the most healthy ones eat> > only a small amount of meat and a lot of vegetables and fruits, but> > that is just what I recommend: mostly raw vegetables and fruits,> > nuts, seeds, roots, tubors, femented grain, no unfermented soy (which> > far too many vegans consume).> > > > I guess the bottom line is that we can argue this subject until we are> > blue in the face, but I will continue to recommend an almost entirely> > or entirely raw vegetarian diet for actively fighting cancer and a> > diet that includes some meat otherwise.> > > > Live long, live healthy, live happy!> > > > Tony> > > > > > ---> > > >

July 22, 2008

Gee, I hope you are not saying that

people who eat meat are not compassionate. J

Eating is certainly not a religion to me

as I learned through my illness to “eat to live, not live to

eat.” The obsession with food that most people have probably has

much to do with toxic ingredients/chemicals in the food which makes the food

like a habit-forming drug. Which is why it is important to eat as clean and

toxin-free as possible.

I also abhor the massive farming and

feed-lots of animals. The drive from Houston to Dallas shows the

awfulness of these mass feed-lots. They are a breeding ground for disease.

However, I am “for” the organic farmer raising grass-fed, happy and

grazed animals for the benefit of his/her family and for others. If

consumed in-balance this does not “cause” disease.

There is a HUGE emotional component to

disease and most don’t realize or talk about it enough. Add stress to

that and you have a body whose terrain is ripe for disease. Don’t

get me wrong, diet is extremely important and foundational, but there is more

to the equation. Again, I have seen very sick individuals who have led a

very healthy life, except for toxic emotions and very high stress levels. Anger

(this is the big-one), selfishness, un-forgiveness, past wrongs, jealousy,

hatred, etc. are toxic to the body and will bring the immune system down just

as quick as eating toxic food. There is just so much that goes into the

make-up of disease and its cause.

Tony, your fish recipe sounds good

– can you do the same with cold-water fish? J I’m sure there will be

a lot of fishermen (and surfers) out on the Texas coast for the next few days

as tropical storm Dolly stirs up the waters of the Gulf of Mexico. My

son-in-law will be one of them. LOL

Be Well

Loretta

______

Passions

& beliefs can also be felt in non-vegans no doubt. But compassion

should be universal. I have no problem ending the debate, obviously it

could be endless due to the fact that what we eat is such a religion to us

all. We can never dismiss the pain and suffering to another

being never helps anything or anybody regardless, we are responsible for it

everytime we put animals products in our mouth. Health is also environmental

and eating animals causes massive pollution. Animals are here for

their own reasons, just like us.

It

should also be recommended that whatever a person eats, it should all be

researched and be exercised with all due caution. Vegan or not. Why

should there be an exception for vegans.

Tammatha

July 22, 2008

Eating organic does not mean you are not eating an animal. But like Tony said, time to stop on this one as we are not going to have a meeting of the minds, otherwise it will go on & on.

Tammatha

-

Dr. Loretta Lanphier

oleander soup

Monday, July 21, 2008 4:40 PM

RE: Vegetarianisn - the neverending debate that needs to end

Gee, I hope you are not saying that people who eat meat are not compassionate. J

Eating is certainly not a religion to me as I learned through my illness to “eat to live, not live to eat.” The obsession with food that most people have probably has much to do with toxic ingredients/chemicals in the food which makes the food like a habit-forming drug. Which is why it is important to eat as clean and toxin-free as possible.

I also abhor the massive farming and feed-lots of animals. The drive from Houston to Dallas shows the awfulness of these mass feed-lots. They are a breeding ground for disease. However, I am “for” the organic farmer raising grass-fed, happy and grazed animals for the benefit of his/her family and for others. If consumed in-balance this does not “cause” disease.

There is a HUGE emotional component to disease and most don’t realize or talk about it enough. Add stress to that and you have a body whose terrain is ripe for disease. Don’t get me wrong, diet is extremely important and foundational, but there is more to the equation. Again, I have seen very sick individuals who have led a very healthy life, except for toxic emotions and very high stress levels. Anger (this is the big-one), selfishness, un-forgiveness, past wrongs, jealousy, hatred, etc. are toxic to the body and will bring the immune system down just as quick as eating toxic food. There is just so much that goes into the make-up of disease and its cause.

Tony, your fish recipe sounds good – can you do the same with cold-water fish? J I’m sure there will be a lot of fishermen (and surfers) out on the Texas coast for the next few days as tropical storm Dolly stirs up the waters of the Gulf of Mexico. My son-in-law will be one of them. LOL

Be Well

Loretta

______

Passions & beliefs can also be felt in non-vegans no doubt. But compassion should be universal. I have no problem ending the debate, obviously it could be endless due to the fact that what we eat is such a religion to us all. We can never dismiss the pain and suffering to another being never helps anything or anybody regardless, we are responsible for it everytime we put animals products in our mouth. Health is also environmental and eating animals causes massive pollution. Animals are here for their own reasons, just like us.

It should also be recommended that whatever a person eats, it should all be researched and be exercised with all due caution. Vegan or not. Why should there be an exception for vegans.

Tammatha