The China Project - and a retraction/apology

July 21, 2008

Tony,For all you do for us, you can be a 'grump' whenever you feel the urge....Love,trishOn Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Tony wrote:

While I do not want a continued debate on vegetarianism, I have to say that I should have looked into the China Project before making my last post about ending the discussion, because I clearly was wrong to make the statement:

" There are studies out there that support just about anything one wishes to find to support their views. " Upon looking into the study, which I should have done before making my post - and weariness and hurriedness is no excuse, I found that it is indeed a remarkable work - and so my apologies to Tammatha for opening my mouth and inserting my foot (blush).

Here is a pretty good overview of The China Project:

Background This is the most comprehensive project on diet and disease ever undertaken. Two major surveys were undertaken, 1983 and 1989-90. These surveys were undertaken in China because cancers and various other diseases exhibit exceptional geographic localization. Thus, it made sense to examine these local regions to determine the responsible dietary and lifestyle factors. In a 1983 survey, 367 items of information were collected on how people live and how they die in 138 rural Chinese villages; 6500 adults and their families were surveyed. In a 1989-90 survey, more than 1000 items of information were collected in 170 villages in rural China and Taiwan, involving 10,200 adults and their families. These new data, including a large number of socioeconomic characteristics, will be combined with a new survey on causes of death for a population of 100 million (1.4 million death certificates for the years, 1986-88). There are sufficient data available in these combined surveys to interpret for the next 20+ years -- at least. The opportunities for exploration of the causes of disease, both specifically and generally, are incalculable. We believe that these data have the potential to establish a new paradigm for thinking about nutrition and health -- for all countries, rich and poor, East and West, North and South.

Public recognition given to project The project has been featured as a cover or lead story in numerous news print media, including the New York Times, the China Daily, USATodgy, and the Boston Globe, among many others, and at least in part or whole, in several TV documentaries shown in Tokyo, Seoul, Rio de Janeiro, Beijing, London, Frankfurt and US cities.In an analysis of food trends prepared by Smith Barney Shearson, the banking investment firm, the China Project was said to be the " seminal', work driving the current marketplace trends; furthermore, it was said to have been undertaken with " rigorous methodology " .

Some findings from the 1983 survey The dietary patterns in China are strikingly different from Western countries, the major difference being the consumption of foods of animal origin. Animal protein intake, for example, is 10-fold greater, on average, in the US. than in China. Although the biology of the diet and disease relationship is infinitely complex and is easily misunderstood when interpreted in a reductionism manner, the main nutritional conclusion from this study is the finding that the greater the consumption of a variety of good quality plant-based foods, the lower the risk of those diseases which are commonly found in western countries (eg., cancers, cardiovascular diseases, diabetes). Based on these and other data, we hypothesize that 80-90% of all such diseases could be prevented before about age 90 years. I can find no argument with that - it is in fact, pretty much what I have preached. I suppose some could look at the study and be compelled to convert entirely to vegetarinism; however, what I gathered from the study was not that it advocates a conversion to a complete vegetarian diet, but rather that it clearly points out how much healthier we could be and how much better the shepherding of the earth's resources could be, the more we replace meat with vegetables.

Thanks Tammatha for pointing me towards the study, and sorry I was a grump.

-- Excellence, I can reach for; perfection is God's business. [Michael J. Fox]

July 21, 2008

Very gracious!

All the best,

Maracuja

July 21, 2008

Another review of the China Study

Rich Fhttp://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html--- On Mon, 7/21/08, Tony wrote:

Tony The China Project - and a retraction/apologyoleander soup Date: Monday, July 21, 2008, 10:59 AM

While I do not want a continued debate on vegetarianism, I have to say that I should have looked into the China Project before making my last post about ending the discussion, because I clearly was wrong to make the statement:"There are studies out there that support just about anything one wishes to find to support their views."Upon looking into the study, which I should have done before making my post - and weariness and hurriedness is no excuse, I found that it is indeed a remarkable work - and so my apologies to Tammatha for opening my mouth and inserting my foot (blush).Here is a pretty good overview of The China Project:

Background This is the most comprehensive project on diet and disease ever undertaken. Two major surveys were undertaken, 1983 and 1989-90. These surveys were undertaken in China because cancers and various other diseases exhibit exceptional geographic localization. Thus, it made sense to examine these local regions to determine the responsible dietary and lifestyle factors. In a 1983 survey, 367 items of information were collected on how people live and how they die in 138 rural Chinese villages; 6500 adults and their families were surveyed. In a 1989-90 survey, more than 1000 items of information were collected in 170 villages in rural China and Taiwan, involving 10,200 adults and their families. These new data, including a large number of socioeconomic characteristics, will be combined with a new survey on causes of death for a population of 100 million (1.4 million death certificates for the years,

1986-88). There are sufficient data available in these combined surveys to interpret for the next 20+ years -- at least. The opportunities for exploration of the causes of disease, both specifically and generally, are incalculable. We believe that these data have the potential to establish a new paradigm for thinking about nutrition and health -- for all countries, rich and poor, East and West, North and South.

Public recognition given to project The project has been featured as a cover or lead story in numerous news print media, including the New York Times, the China Daily, USATodgy, and the Boston Globe, among many others, and at least in part or whole, in several TV documentaries shown in Tokyo, Seoul, Rio de Janeiro, Beijing, London, Frankfurt and US cities.In an analysis of food trends prepared by Smith Barney Shearson, the banking investment firm, the China Project was said to be the "seminal', work driving the current marketplace trends; furthermore, it was said to have been undertaken with "rigorous methodology" .

Some findings from the 1983 survey The dietary patterns in China are strikingly different from Western countries, the major difference being the consumption of foods of animal origin. Animal protein intake, for example, is 10-fold greater, on average, in the US. than in China. Although the biology of the diet and disease relationship is infinitely complex and is easily misunderstood when interpreted in a reductionism manner, the main nutritional conclusion from this study is the finding that the greater the consumption of a variety of good quality plant-based foods, the lower the risk of those diseases which are commonly found in western countries (eg., cancers, cardiovascular diseases, diabetes). Based on these and other data, we hypothesize that 80-90% of all such diseases could be prevented before about age 90 years. I can find no argument with that - it is in fact, pretty much what I have preached. I suppose some could look at the study and be compelled to convert entirely to vegetarinism; however, what I gathered from the study was not that it advocates a conversion to a complete vegetarian diet, but rather that it clearly points out how much healthier we could be and how much better the shepherding of the earth's resources could be, the more we replace meat with vegetables.Thanks Tammatha for pointing me towards the study, and sorry I was a grump.Tony

July 21, 2008

Very good counterpoints from the Weston Price group, which I generally

like, but which has its own bias when it comes to meat eaters versus

vegans.

I note that in the information I found at one point it was stated that

the study contained enough informtion for continued analysis for a

couple of decades.

From what I saw I did not see any compelling evidence to go completley

vegan, just some very good evidence that consuming more raw vegetables

is healthy.

I personally think that devoting so much land to the production of

beef and milk is not very efficient - and I abhor the inhumane

practices at feedlots, many dairy forms, and chicken and egg farms.

Likewise, I find it pretty damn barbaric to stalk and kill and

innocent animal for the sake of putting it's head or horns on your

wall! I love good venison though and I have little problem with

catching, cleaning and eating a tasty catfish.

Vegetables or meat, we have pretty much farkled our food supply. Not

only are our lakes and oceans polluted with toxins, our soil is mostly

depleted of essential minerals, including the often overlooked trace

minerals, animals are fed antibiotic and growth hormones, and even

free ranging animals and so-called organic vegetables, while vastly

preferable, are far from toxin-free.

If you are what you eat, the the animals we consume are partially made

up of all the pesticides, herbicides and even nuclear fallout (which

covers every square foot of the earth) that is in the plants they

graze on and eat.

Some pesticides have half lives of 50 or more years. Yet land need

only be free of actual chemical use for three years to qualify as

organic soil. And that says nothing of the chemical drift from the

air and water runoff from adjacent land that may be routinely sprayed

with herbicides and pesticides.

Ah well, I am getting on my soapbox again . . .

What can we do? Obviously try to take action to reverse the abuses.

But more realistically for the forseeable future, eat as healthily as

we can, build and maintain a strong immune system, live a healthy

lifestyle that includes sunshine and good water along with a bit of

exercise, cleanse and detox regularly and keep chemicals out of our

bodies and immediate environments.

oleander soup , rich folts <rihierich512001

wrote:

>

> Another review of the China Study

> Rich F

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

> --- On Mon, 7/21/08, Tony wrote:

>

> Tony

> The China Project - and a retraction/apology

> oleander soup

> Monday, July 21, 2008, 10:59 AM

While I do not want a continued debate on vegetarianism, I have to

say that I should have looked into the China Project before making my

last post about ending the discussion, because I clearly was wrong to

make the statement:

>

> " There are studies out there that support just about anything one

wishes to find to support their views. "

>

> Upon looking into the study, which I should have done before making

my post - and weariness and hurriedness is no excuse, I found that it

is indeed a remarkable work - and so my apologies to Tammatha for

opening my mouth and inserting my foot (blush).

>

> Here is a pretty good overview of The China Project:

>

> Background This is the most comprehensive project on diet and

disease ever undertaken. Two major surveys were undertaken, 1983 and

1989-90. These surveys were undertaken in China because cancers and

various other diseases exhibit exceptional geographic localization.

Thus, it made sense to examine these local regions to determine the

responsible dietary and lifestyle factors.

>

> In a 1983 survey, 367 items of information were collected on how

people live and how they die in 138 rural Chinese villages; 6500

adults and their families were surveyed. In a 1989-90 survey, more

than 1000 items of information were collected in 170 villages in rural

China and Taiwan, involving 10,200 adults and their families. These

new data, including a large number of socioeconomic characteristics,

will be combined with a new survey on causes of death for a population

of 100 million (1.4 million death certificates for the years, 1986-88).

>

> There are sufficient data available in these combined surveys to

interpret for the next 20+ years -- at least. The opportunities for

exploration of the causes of disease, both specifically and generally,

are incalculable. We believe that these data have the potential to

establish a new paradigm for thinking about nutrition and health --

for all countries, rich and poor, East and West, North and South.

>

> Public recognition given to project The project has been featured as

a cover or lead story in numerous news print media, including the New

York Times, the China Daily, USATodgy, and the Boston Globe, among

many others, and at least in part or whole, in several TV

documentaries shown in Tokyo, Seoul, Rio de Janeiro, Beijing, London,

Frankfurt and US cities.

>

> In an analysis of food trends prepared by Smith Barney Shearson, the

banking investment firm, the China Project was said to be the

" seminal', work driving the current marketplace trends; furthermore,

it was said to have been undertaken with " rigorous methodology " .

>

> Some findings from the 1983 survey The dietary patterns in China are

strikingly different from Western countries, the major difference

being the consumption of foods of animal origin. Animal protein

intake, for example, is 10-fold greater, on average, in the US. than

in China.

>

> Although the biology of the diet and disease relationship is

infinitely complex and is easily misunderstood when interpreted in a

reductionism manner, the main nutritional conclusion from this study

is the finding that the greater the consumption of a variety of good

quality plant-based foods, the lower the risk of those diseases which

are commonly found in western countries (eg., cancers, cardiovascular

diseases, diabetes). Based on these and other data, we hypothesize

that 80-90% of all such diseases could be prevented before about age

90 years.

>

> I can find no argument with that - it is in fact, pretty much what I

have preached. I suppose some could look at the study and be

compelled to convert entirely to vegetarinism; however, what I

gathered from the study was not that it advocates a conversion to a

complete vegetarian diet, but rather that it clearly points out how

much healthier we could be and how much better the shepherding of the

earth's resources could be, the more we replace meat with vegetables.

>

> Thanks Tammatha for pointing me towards the study, and sorry I was a

grump.

>

> >

July 21, 2008

Tony,

You are a gentleman and a scholar. I appreciate your acknowledgement of this phenomenal must read book. I and I believe all of us respect all your hard work to help others. We need more human beings like you on this planet.

Thank you!

Tammatha

-

Trish Kleinfelder

oleander soup

Monday, July 21, 2008 8:17 AM

Re: The China Project - and a retraction/apology

Tony,

For all you do for us, you can be a 'grump' whenever you feel the urge....

Love,

trish

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Tony > wrote:

While I do not want a continued debate on vegetarianism, I have to say that I should have looked into the China Project before making my last post about ending the discussion, because I clearly was wrong to make the statement:"There are studies out there that support just about anything one wishes to find to support their views."Upon looking into the study, which I should have done before making my post - and weariness and hurriedness is no excuse, I found that it is indeed a remarkable work - and so my apologies to Tammatha for opening my mouth and inserting my foot (blush).Here is a pretty good overview of The China Project:

Background This is the most comprehensive project on diet and disease ever undertaken. Two major surveys were undertaken, 1983 and 1989-90. These surveys were undertaken in China because cancers and various other diseases exhibit exceptional geographic localization. Thus, it made sense to examine these local regions to determine the responsible dietary and lifestyle factors. In a 1983 survey, 367 items of information were collected on how people live and how they die in 138 rural Chinese villages; 6500 adults and their families were surveyed. In a 1989-90 survey, more than 1000 items of information were collected in 170 villages in rural China and Taiwan, involving 10,200 adults and their families. These new data, including a large number of socioeconomic characteristics, will be combined with a new survey on causes of death for a population of 100 million (1.4 million death certificates for the years, 1986-88). There are sufficient data available in these combined surveys to interpret for the next 20+ years -- at least. The opportunities for exploration of the causes of disease, both specifically and generally, are incalculable. We believe that these data have the potential to establish a new paradigm for thinking about nutrition and health -- for all countries, rich and poor, East and West, North and South.

Public recognition given to project The project has been featured as a cover or lead story in numerous news print media, including the New York Times, the China Daily, USATodgy, and the Boston Globe, among many others, and at least in part or whole, in several TV documentaries shown in Tokyo, Seoul, Rio de Janeiro, Beijing, London, Frankfurt and US cities.In an analysis of food trends prepared by Smith Barney Shearson, the banking investment firm, the China Project was said to be the "seminal', work driving the current marketplace trends; furthermore, it was said to have been undertaken with "rigorous methodology".

Some findings from the 1983 survey The dietary patterns in China are strikingly different from Western countries, the major difference being the consumption of foods of animal origin. Animal protein intake, for example, is 10-fold greater, on average, in the US. than in China. Although the biology of the diet and disease relationship is infinitely complex and is easily misunderstood when interpreted in a reductionism manner, the main nutritional conclusion from this study is the finding that the greater the consumption of a variety of good quality plant-based foods, the lower the risk of those diseases which are commonly found in western countries (eg., cancers, cardiovascular diseases, diabetes). Based on these and other data, we hypothesize that 80-90% of all such diseases could be prevented before about age 90 years. I can find no argument with that - it is in fact, pretty much what I have preached. I suppose some could look at the study and be compelled to convert entirely to vegetarinism; however, what I gathered from the study was not that it advocates a conversion to a complete vegetarian diet, but rather that it clearly points out how much healthier we could be and how much better the shepherding of the earth's resources could be, the more we replace meat with vegetables.Thanks Tammatha for pointing me towards the study, and sorry I was a grump.Tony -- Excellence, I can reach for; perfection is God's business. [Michael J. Fox]