Imagine There's No HIV, It's Easy If You Question AIDS

[Guest guest]

<MedicalConspiracies (AT) googl (DOT) com> HIV DENIAL OR INFORMED AIDS DISSENT? Think only a few scientists, doctors, academics and journalists doubt the 'HIV' theory of immuno-deficiency? THINK AGAIN. http://www.aras.ab.ca/thelist.htm http://www.aras.ab.ca/aidsquotes.htm DID YOU KNOW hundreds of dissenting or dissident scientists, including Nobel Laureates and members of the National Academy of Sciences, confirming alternative medicine's long questioning of the virus/germ mode or 'one-cause, one-course' drug-based model, are calling into question the dominant, conventional pharmaceutically-based scientific and medical hypothesis for the alleged viral pathogenesis and progression of 'HIV=AIDS?' Dissidents dissent from a legitimate scientific and medical bases as to the causatives and curatives for 30-something previously known and unrelated 'AIDS' clinically redefined illnesses, all of which occur in those diagnosed 'HIV' non-specific antibody negative. So, besides the definition and diagnosis of what is called 'AIDS' Dissidents are also challenging the accuracy and specifity of the 'HIV' non-specific antibody tests to measure infection with any virus since there are over 60+ known cross-reactors from pregnancy to the flu to immunizations to hepatitis to transfusions and on and on. It is a clinical conundrum or circular construct. TB + HIV = AIDS, whereas TB - HIV = TB and so on and so forth on down the list of 30-something previously known and unrelated illnesses. No one has ever had 'AIDS' or become ill or died of 'AIDS' though persons [mis]diagnosed as such have become ill and/or died. It is not simply a matter of semantics, that we are playing a name game. Most of those [mis]diagnosed with 'AIDS' have no clinical symptoms, except a non-specific clinical marker of under 200 T-Cells and there is insufficient evidence 'HIV' positivity is always or usually a wake-up call rather than a crank call for a stressed immune system. We recommend all persons address their health irrespective of 'HIV' or 'AIDS' labels. We endorse a multi-factorial approach to immune suficiency and sustainability in addressing the oxidative stressors including physical[malnutrition], chemical[toxicologic], biological[dis-ease], psychological[chronic stress], and spiritual[religious reconciling]-- of which 'HIV' non-specific, non-confirmatory marker positivity is no reliable indicator of worthiness or wellness. We are disbelievers in a '[sAME]SEXUAL=SIN=SICKNESS' mindset having lead for many to the unquestioned acceptance of the 'HIV=AIDS=DEATH' paradigm. We endorse proportionate access to alternative health care for the 50%-2/3 of those 'HIV/AIDS' diagnosed which the HHS says are not in 'HIV' Specialist Care and who may not choose to access due to their health care philosophy and practise. We also endorse a model of competition within our health care system to break up the current model of monopoly of conventional, pharmaceutically-based medicine. We oppose the enforcement of medical correctness and scientific censorship within governmental and private non-profit insititutions such as that enforced by the AIDS Industry and many organizations within the LGBT community. FIRST, HERE'S A LITTLE MORE ABOUT ME: I formerly served on AIDS Project Los Angeles Spiritual Advisory Committee and as the Director of the InterFaith Project for Gay/Lesbian Concerns at USC, organizing "Coming Out To God" tabling during National Coming Out Week three years in a row representing many reconciling organizations and affirming congregations, also a peer mentoring and drop-out prevention program for gay and lesbian youth in five area high schools in connection with Project Ten. I am also the first open AIDS Dissident appointed to the Federation of Gay Games, Sydney 2002, "AIDS, Breast Cancer and Wellness Subcommittee" and have spoken to groups as diverse as Log Cabin Republicans. I have been heavily involved in the presence of AIDS Dissidence on the net; negotiating links to AIDS Dissident organizations on websites such as AEGiS and Frontiers and have helped to found a number of very active AIDS Dissident forums, websites with thousands of members. I have also organized many on-line and on-land actions, participated in some forums, conferences. In 2003, I was contacted by the Secret Service and asked about my involvement in the AIDS Dissident movement since, I assume, 'AIDS' is catagorized as a national security issue and AIDS Dissidents are challenging the dominant scientific and conventional medical model, questioning the whole paradigm and protocol. Although I work with many persons of any or no faith, I am also the founder of DISSIDENT and SAINT, a faith-based social action which has engaged in direct non-violent action at the 2002 and 2003 Utah Pride Festivals, last year being denied our booth application after having paid our fee and standing in the 'HIV' testing line under threat of arrest, respectfully providing AIDS alternative resources and information, resulting in a number of persons getting out of the line. Our members include the former 'HIV' Prevention Specialist at the Utah AIDS Foundation, Rob Jones and founder of gayRMs, a social fellowship for gay Returned Missionaries. READ MORE OF KELLY JON LANDIS INVOLVEMENT IN THE DISSENTING SCIENTIFIC AND ALTERNATIVE HEALTH CARE FREEDOM MOVEMENT: ...including testifying before a joint legislative hearing in Sacramento, CA representing the Group for the Scientific Reappriasal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis and providing testimony to the White House Commission on CAM and many other organizations and individuals. 'NATURAL' ALLIES to AIDS DISSIDENCE http://groups.msn.com/AIDSMythExposed/general.msnw?action=get_message & mview=0 & ID_Message=1582 & LastModified=4675445024672392681 Healthfully and Hopefully, Kelly Jon Landis 1317 Euclid St., #9 Santa Monica, CA 90404 kjlandis 310-663-3895 [cell] LINKS TO DISCUSSION THREADS... BUGGERY, BUG-CHASING, BAREBACKING http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous/messages?msg=619.1 'HIV' Super Strain: Another False Alarm http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous/messages?msg=992.1 Logical Fallacies Used Against HIV/AIDS Rethinkers or Dissidents http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous/messages?msg=269.1 Why People Diagnosed with 'AIDS' Are Living Longer Now http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous/messages?msg=490.1 Who Counts as Socalled "Long-Term Non-Progressors?" http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous/messages?msg=180.1 BEYOND FLAT EARTH MEDICINE How popular consensus and the medical establishment have often stubbornly clung to the wrong ideas, unable to think outside the box. When medically 'correct' wasn't always. A Brief History of Mismanaged Epidemics [Disease]---[Popular Consensus]---[Actual Cause] Scurvy------Contagious---Malnutrition: Vitamin C deficiency Beri-beri---Contagious---Malnutrition: Thiamin deficiency Maternal Fever---Non-contagious---Contagious: Unsanitary doctor practices Influenza---Bacteria---Virus Pellagra----Contagious---Malnutrition: Niacin deficiency SMON(1950s-70s, Japan)---New Virus---Iatrogenic: Pharmaceutically induced In science as in the law, the affirmative statement or theory bares the burden of proof for establishing itself. Those who critique it's establishment in fact, are not required to reprove or replace another theory of it's aetiology, especially when immune dysfunction has a multi-factorially influenced set of unrelated conditions, or according to Alternative Medicine, all illness/wellness is on a continuum and the result of immune sufficiency or deficiency. Alternative Medicine has long questioned the virus/germ mode or 'one-cause, one-course' drug-based model or theory of illness which is confirmed by the work of hundreds of AIDS Dissident Scientists, including Nobel Laureates, Members of the National Academy of Sciences and pioneers in their fields. Many often disconnect the alternative theories of diagnosis[PHILOSOPHY] from the alternative therapies of treatment [PRACTISE]-- in how Alternative Medicine differentially diagnoses the individual and treats using a holistic, multi-factorial or 'many-causes, many-courses' approache to illness. They treat the underlying causes of symptoms, not diagnosing/treating diseases and certainly not diagnosing/treating syndromes, which are a 'catch-all' of redefined classifications or catagories of conditions. And therefore, Alternative Medicine does not generally recognize conventional disease classifications. "For disease, all experience shows, are adjectives, not noun substantives.There are no specific diseases: there are [only] specific disease conditions [or states of dis-ease]." Florence Nightingale (Nursing Pioneer, Disease Dissident) Interesting that AIDS Apologists, or those who defend or defer to the affirmative statement or new theory, in this case the 'HIV=AIDS' hypothesis, often compare AIDS Dissidents with Flat Earthers, but Galileo was a Dissident, the Flat Earthers were the mainstream scientific establishment. There is a famous story about Galileo, that is relevant here, I think. Galileo was in trouble with the Church authorities, for his observation of Jupiter's moons, through his telescope. (The four moons that he saw are traditionally called the "Galilean" moons, after their discoverer.) Anyway, he offered to let an influential member of the Clergy look through the telescope at these moons, so that said clergyman would see what Galileo had seen. This pious man refused, saying that as long as he did not look, his religious faith could remain intact. Sadly, we are dealing with a kind of medical "church", regarding the HIV theory; its members do not want their faith shaken (or stirred! :-) ) Scurvy was thought to be transmitted by a microbe for 200 years even while Dissident Scientists were arguing it was a Vitamin C deficiency. The implication was that Seamen or Sailors engaged in 'buggary' were sexually transmissing a 'bug.' Homosexuality was deemed a psychiatric disorder by the medical and scientific establishment until 1973, a decade later the medical diagnosis of GRID-- Gay Related Immune Dysfunction was described in the literature. PEER REVIEW REVIEWED See especially: Little Evidence for Effectiveness of Scientific Peer Review, British Medical Journal 326:241, February 1, 2003; Study Faults Industry Clinical Trials: Company-backed Tests Rarely Follow Guidelines, Report Finds; Associated Press, October 23, 2002, Trials Funded by for Profit Organizations Favor the Intervention: The British Medical Journal, August 3, 2002; 325:249; Scientists for Sale, Health Editor The Guardian, Thursday February 7, 2002; Medical Journal Eases Conflict Rules The Associated Press; Conflicts of Interest in Medical Journals, AMA Journal Critiques Report Data, Associated Press. Hidden Risks, Lethal Truths, Sunday Reporter, Los Angeles Times June 30, 2002; Something Rotten at the Core of Science? Trends in Pharmacological Sciences Vol. 22, No. 2, February 2001; Definning Disease A review by Marilyn Werber Serafini, from National Journal June 8, 2002: Pharmacracy. INDEX OF ARTICLES IN MAINSTREAM PRESS INCLUDING THOSE LISTED: http://www.questionaids.com/index.php?page=PeerReview New quotes examining the supposed transmission of HIV/AIDS via sex, blood products etc. Top 100 Inconsistencies in AIDS Science. New quotes on the relationship between ‘recreational’ drug use and HIV/AIDS. Similar quotes regarding other AIDS drugs (collectively known as HAART). Scientific quotes indicating that not just injected street drugs are associated with HIV and AIDS. HIV tests and measurements are not as accurate as many claim. Is HIV/AIDS really transmitted between people, or is this just an illusion? Myths & Mysteries of HIV and AIDS (html or pdf formats). ARE THE NEWER CLASS OF AIDS DRUGS RESPONSIBLE FOR DECLINES IN 'AIDS' ATTRIBUTED DEATHS? YOU GOTTA HAVE HAART [or Highly Active Anti-Retroviral Therapy]? INDEX OF ARTICLES, PAPERS ON THE NEW CLASS OF AIDS DRUG COCKTAILS http://healtoronto.com/ptease.html CDC data on number of AIDS cases and AIDS deaths. AIDS cases and deaths CLEARLY begin to decline *PRIOR* to the release of new "miracle" drugs! (Taken from: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/stats/hivsur92.pdf). However, only 19% of so-called "HIV-positive" people were on the new drugs by the end of June *1996* (see: http://www.retroconference.org/2001/abstracts/abstracts/abstracts/494.htm ). Also, the dosage of the TOXIC AZT has been lowered SUBSTANTIALLY (by at least 50%) since its release in 1987. See THIS GRAPHIC for related information. AIDS DISSIDENT SCIENTIFIC SUMMARY ANALYSIS what is hiv? No laboratory has ever obtained an undisputed sample of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), despite countless attempts. Most laboratories, clinics and medical corporations have come to accept indirect signs, or 'markers', such as antibody reactions, proteins, genetic fragments, 'virus-like' particles, enzymes - that could suggest a virus but also other things - as proving the presence and existence of an 'HIV'. If such a virus were ever isolated by standards applicable until the late 1970s, the expectations are that it would be a retrovirus - a concept of viruses adopted in the early 1970s. The genetic code of a retrovirus would work 'backwards' - 'retro' - transforming RNA to DNA. Most retroviruses are known as harmless passenger viruses a part of all of endogenous or naturally occuring genetic make-up. 'HIV' has never been found in suficient quantities to kill T-Cells and in fact there is no concensus even after 20+ years as to 'HIV's cytotoxic or cell killing mechanism. For a decade, researchers thought cancer was caused by a retrovirus. Professor Peter Duesberg, UC Berkeley, isolated the first retrovirus and is a Father of Retrovirology says 'HIV' is a harmless passenger virus that does not cause the syndrome known as 'AIDS.' In 1984 some signs suggesting a possible new virus were detected in cell cultures by the scientific teams of Frenchman Luc Montagnier in Paris, and American Robert Gallo in Washington, who were trying to explain a single cause for 'AIDS'. The French called their findings Lymphadenopathy Associated Virus (LAV), the Americans called theirs Human T-cell Lymphotrophic Virus III (HTLV-III). The US Government announced at a press conference in 1984 that a new virus was "the probable cause of AIDS," yet before any scientific papers inviting peer scrutiny were published. When such papers appeared in Science some weeks later, a dispute erupted between Montagnier and Gallo. Gallo was found guilty of scientific misconduct by a Senate Ethics Committee, for misappropriating material and photographs of 'virus- like' particles from the French. Because of the financial stakes - Gallo and the US government applied for a patent for tests for 'HIV' the day of the press conference - the matter was eventually solved only by a closed meeting between the scientists which produced an official history of events, and a meeting between the US and French Presidents. However, neither Gallo nor Montagnier ever managed to purify samples of the virus they claimed to have detected. Many scientists believe that without fulfiling this traditional primary requirement of virus isolation, multiple confusions at the molecular biological level are inevitable over what or whether anything has actually been found. To this day, primary purification of 'HIV' has never been achieved. The last attempts, published in 1997 in Virology, revealed proteins and genetic fragments from microvesicles - sub-cell particles - but no virus. hiv antibody tests INDEX OF ARTICLES, PAPERS http://www.healtoronto.com/hivtest.html Over the years of the HIV/AIDS theory, different types of test have been used to try to detect such a virus in patients. These have included (1) antibody tests, which look for a reaction in a person's blood between their natural antibodies and synthetic proteins said to belong to HIV, and (2) Polymerase Chain Reaction - PCR - or 'viral load' genetic tests, which purport to use part of the virus' genetic code to detect its presence. All these tests are indirect, or surrogate. They do not claim to detect any whole virus. Rather, they use markers to infer whether a virus might be present. Unfortunately for the accuracy of these tests, these same markers can be found in a variety of non-HIV situations. No HIV test of any kind has ever been validated against the one measure that is not indirect - the gold standard: physical virus isolation. This is because isolation of HIV by the previously conventional standards of viral isolation has never been achieved, despite numerous attempts. Of the antibody tests for HIV, there are two main types - called ELISA, and Western Blot. Neither was designed especially for HIV, but are examples of laboratory methodologies used in many investigations. Around the world many companies market their versions of the ELISA and Western Blot antibody tests for HIV. However, the uncertain, unvalidated nature of these tests is reflected in the product literature supplied by their manufacturers. A typical example for the ELISA reads: "At present there is no recognised standard for establishing the presence or absence of antibodies to HIV-1 and HIV-2 in human blood." - Axsym System, Abbott Laboratories A typical example for the Western Blot reads: "Do not use this kit as the sole basis of diagnosis of HIV-1 infection." - Epitope, Organon Teknika Neither Isolation Nor Validation Any scientist who declares that a genetic sequence, moreover a genetic sequence arrived at by human concensus, represents a naturally occuring virus, has compromised their scientific integrity. To further suggest that this genetic sequence represents a unique, exogenous, sexually transmitted and indeed pathogenic retrovirus is to enter the realms of pseudo-science. Without HIV isolation all is mere speculation. Even if HIV were isolated and the proteins tested for by the ELISA antibody test were actually proteins specific to HIV, an antibody test would still not be accurate enough for determining actual viral infection. Everyone tests HIV positive on ELISA if their serum is not diluted by a factor of 400 because of non-specific antibodies which bind to any proteins. "Of course we looked for it [HIV]... We saw some particles but they did not have the morphology [shape] typical of retroviruses. ... I repeat we did not purify." ~ Dr. Luc Montagnier, the "discoverer of HIV" (see French transcript of quote from the interview http://healtoronto.com/lmfrench.html, Did Luc Montagnier Discover HIV? http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/dtinterviewlm.htm or video) "No one believed we really had that many isolates... No one believed we really meant that..." ~ Dr. Robert Gallo, also discovered "HIV" (see Gallo Investigated http://healtoronto.com/galloindex.html) 'viral load' / PCR test Polymerase Chain Reaction - PCR - or the 'viral load' test, purports to detect, and quantify, blood-borne HIV in patients. However, the genetic fragments it amplifies have never been proved to originate in HIV, or in any virus. The accuracy of PCR viral load is estimated by leading doctors at plus or minus 300% - i.e. a reading of 90,000 could be 30,000 or 270,000! The PCR was not invented for HIV. Its Nobel Prizewinning inventor, Dr Kary Mullis, calls the use of PCR in AIDS medicine, "a tragedy in the practice of Western medicine" and a "viral load of crap." The uncertain unvalidated nature of the PCR for HIV is reflected in the product literature supplied by manufacturers. A typical example reads: "The Amplicor HIV-1 Monitor test is not intended to be used as a screening test for HIV or as a diagnostic test to confirm the presence of HIV infection." - Roche, Amplicor VIRAL LOAD OF WHAT? http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/index/kmullis.htm t-cells Since the beginning of the HIV/AIDS theory, it has been suggested that a virus kills a certain type of cell of the immune system - called T-cells, or CD4 cells. 'T' refers to the maturing of these cells in the gland of the Thymus, after their birth in the bone marrow. CD4 is short for Cluster Differentiation 4, referring to a method by which scientists group subsets of these cells according to protein markers on their surface. In fact there has never been any proof that an HIV kills these cells, or indeed that even when they seem in low numbers in a person's blood, cells have not instead migrated out of the blood to bone marrow and elsewhere. Despite commo n assumptions, even by doctors, CD4/T-cell counting remains a poor predictor of wellness and illness. Since the Berlin World AIDS Conference of 1992 considerably less scientific importance has been attached to T-cell counting. T-cell counts are naturally variable, within an individual over time, between individuals, and between communities. The technology for counting T-cells is accurate only to approximately plus or minus 100 cells. The cells sampled for counting are taken from a person's peripheral blood, where it is widely accepted, less than 10% of a healthy person's T-cells will ever be found. CD-4 T-cells: What Do They Count For? [index of articles/papers] http://healtoronto.com/cd4counts.html what is aids? Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome (AIDS) is a medical diagnosis applied since 1984 in some branches of medicine and the wider public when a person perceived as infected with a human immunodeficiency virus ('HIV') experiences one of 29 conditions. But all of the 29 conditions exist or occur in persons diagnosed 'HIV' antibody negative and are only redefined as 'AIDS' when someone tests antibody positive. 'Acquired' specifies that the diagnosis does not apply to people with inherent immune deficiencies. 'Immune Deficiency' is conventionally taken to be the inability of a person's body to protect against illness. Syndrome is a group of symptoms or conditions which seem to be more or less linked. The growing list of conditions defined 'in the presence of HIV infection' since 1984 as AIDS, have already all been known for decades. Thus TB plus 'HIV' is AIDS, TB without 'HIV' is TB. Cervical cancer plus 'HIV' is AIDS, without is cervical cancer. Etc. In the early 1980s the 'AIDS-indicator' conditions numbered two: pneumocystis carinii pneumonia (thought to be caused by an opportunistic protozöon, now thought to be fungal), and Kaposi's Sarcoma (a quasi-cancer of the skin and other membranes, first reported in 1887). These two conditions were found increasingly frequently in the early 1980s in the USA and Europe in men having sex with men, and were hypothesised as resulting from infectious immune deficiency, inferred from counting people's peripheral T-cells. The syndrome was for a while classified as Gay Related Immune Deficiency (GRID). The list of 'defining' conditions has increased substantially since 1984, though the major risk groups for 'AIDS' in the West have remained men who have sex with men, people with haemophilia (Haemophilia), and IV drug users (Drugs). Despite early alarms, HIV/AIDS has never become a heterosexual epidemic in the West, which does not mean it's a gay disease, but it has failed to meet the parameters of the infectious model. 'HIV=AIDS' does not fulfill Koch's Postulates as none of the apes injected with 'HIV' have developed 'AIDS' conditions. The international CDC definition of AIDS is specifically founded on 'infection with HIV', assumed or demonstrated. Thus by definition it is nearly impossible to have 'AIDS' that is not 'correlative' with 'HIV', though it is widely accepted that 'Immune Deficiency' can be 'Acquired' in a many ways. There are also many well documented causes and treatments for all of the 29 'AIDS' redefined conditons or for addressing aquired immune deficiency. Between different regions of the globe, the criteria and means for arriving at an AIDS diagnosis vary. There are at least seven varying official criteria for diagnosing 'AIDS.' In Africa, for example, the same official concept of AIDS can be found, but since a meeting in 1985 in the city of Bangui, Cote d'Ivoire, the World Health Organisation's Bangui AIDS Definition has allowed for diagnosis of AIDS in Africa with no test performed for 'HIV', if a person experiences the relatively common African symptoms of weight loss, cough, fever and diarrhoea for more than a month. HIV cannot be the cause of AIDS. Why would a virus infect 1% of the US population and 30% of some Africa countries? Why would a virus cause different symptoms depending on your age, gender, and location? Why hasn't 20 years worth of research and billions of dollars spent created a vaccine or "cure"? Why do the pharmaceutical companies and the government censor the scientists, doctors and laypeople that ask these questions and provide reasonable answers? The infectious model does not work that way. See how 'HIV=AIDS' unfills Kochs' Three Postulates of the Infectious Model of Disease. This is why there will never be an 'AIDS' vaccine or cure for 'AIDS' or a manner to prevent transmission of the alleged 'HIV.' 'AIDS' IN AFRICA INDEX OF PAPERS, ARTICLES http://healtoronto.com/africa.html HIV Epidemiology or Epidemio-illogic: An AIDS Numbers Game http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous/messages?msg=606.1 ======================================== RESOURCES FOR FURTHER INFORMATION ======================================== The GROUP for the SCIENTIFIC REAPPRAISAL of the HIV/AIDS HYPOTHESIS [100s of pages of articles, papers] http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/find.htm BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL [bMJ] MODERATED ONLINE DEBATE ON HIV/AIDS http://bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7387/495 [Especially note referenced contributions of The Perth Group of Austrailian AIDS Dissident Scientists, lead by biophysicist Eleni Papadopulos-Eleopulos, whose other extensive archives are found here http://www.theperthgroup.com and here: http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/perthgroup/] Roberto Giraldo, MD President of The Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS Hypothesis http://www.robertogiraldo.com/eng/papers/papers.html TREATING AND PREVENTING ILLNESS ATTRIBUTED TO OR ASSOCIATED WITH "AIDS" http://www.robertogiraldo.com/eng/papers/TreatingAndPreventingAIDS.html REBUTTAL TO NIAID/NIH "Evidence for HIV" DOCUMENT http://www.healtoronto.com/nih INTERNATIONAL AIDS PANEL, INTERIM REPORT Synthesis of deliberations by the panel of experts invited by the President of South Africa, Thabo Mbeki and the ten experiments the Panel designed in attempt to resolve the controversy, endorsed by the African National Congress [AIDS Dissidents/'Denialists' and AIDS Apologists/Orthodoxy] http://www.polity.org.za/govdocs/reports/aids/aidspanel.htm REBUTTAL TO DURBAN DECLARATION http://thedurbandeclaration.org/ HEAL [Health Education AIDS Liason] http://www.healtoronto.com ANOTHER LOOK [breastfeeding and 'HIV/AIDS'] http://www.anotherlook.org MOMM [Mothers Opposing Mandatory Medicine] http://www.informedmomm.com AIDS MYTH EXPOSED [Largest AIDS forum on MSN] http://www.aidsmythexposed.com V I R U S M Y T H [Largest AIDS forum on Delphi] http://forums.delphiforums.com/innocuous ---------------------------