Peripheral Neuropathy

July 28, 2003

In a message dated 7/28/2003 2:25:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, johnlg_2000 writes:

treating peripheral neuropathy

Alpha lipoic acid is also a great supplement for treating peripheral neuropathy. Also a great supplement in general for Aids people as it helps regenerate glutathione. A major antioxidant made by the body that keeps us well.

Chris

July 28, 2003

I know that it's essential to treat the Achilles

Tendon in patients w/diabetic neuropathy; I've tried

it with good success. You must keep the A.T. strong

and supple; that way, the patient will less likely

suffer neuropathy in the feet. (Feet only).

J.G.

--- annie <annie wrote:

> This is my first posting on the group and feel a bit

> of an imposter as a

> 5-element practitioner but would appreciate any

> advice anyone can give me on

> treating peripheral neuropathy (HIV patient).

> My patient was told in Australia 2 years ago that

> there was a formula of 8

> acupuncture treatments that " cured " peripheral

> neuropathy and I feel duty

> bound to try and check this out and if necessary

> refer him to a TCM

> practitioner. I'm based in London UK.

> Many thanks

> Anniex

>

July 31, 2003

Annie,

There is an article in the Journal of Number 68 February 2002: "The Acupuncture treatment of Peripheral Neuropathy in HIV/AIDS".

It might be worthwhile for you to try and get hold of a copy of the article.

The JCM website is: www.jcm.co.uk. I had a look at their website and you can purchase the article and other on HIV/AIDS.

Don't hesitate to contact me to my personal email if you need further help.

Philippe

-

annie

Chinese Medicine

Monday, July 28, 2003 6:19 PM

Traditional (TCM) Peripheral neuropathy

This is my first posting on the group and feel a bit of an imposter as a5-element practitioner but would appreciate any advice anyone can give me ontreating peripheral neuropathy (HIV patient).My patient was told in Australia 2 years ago that there was a formula of 8acupuncture treatments that "cured" peripheral neuropathy and I feel dutybound to try and check this out and if necessary refer him to a TCMpractitioner. I'm based in London UK.Many thanksAnniexFor practitioners, students and those interested in Traditional (TCM) ranging from acupuncture, herbal medicine, tuina and nutrition.Membership rules require that you adhere to NO commercial postings, NO religious postings and NO spam.Web site homepage: Chinese Medicine/

February 19, 2004

>Hi Everybody!

>

>I have a 76 year old patient who is suffering from Peripheral Neuropathy.

>This has bothered him since he had a back operation some time ago. He feels

>like he is walking on pebbles in his shoes when he is in bed trying to

>sleep. I think that either the inter-vertebral foramina are too small after

>the surgery for the nerves to fit without being pressed or the area has

>scar tissue pressing on the nerves. The surgeon who did this to him says

>there is nothing that can be done about it. Gotta love them.

>

>He has an overall yin deficient presentation. Hidden pulse, Pale tongue

>material, swollen with thin white coating and little moisture. He has

>central obesity and dry mouth but he is not diabetic. I have him taking Liu

>Wei Di Huang Pian and Tien Wang Bu Xin Dan with no effect so far, a couple

>of weeks. The MD guys have him taking neurotin, Inderal, and some others

>which I have listed at my office (at another location now) Yes, the western

>meds could cause neuropathy, but most likely not with the timing of the

>symptoms starting right after the surgery. He didn't start the meds until

>he had the symptoms.

>

>The first several Acupuncture treatments helped him - he was almost symptom

>free, and he couldn't even feel the needles but now he is super sensitive

>to needling so I can't needle his feet any more and the symptoms are back.

>I have been using stick on electrodes at the K 1 and Bafeng areas

>connecting the other ends of the circuits to SP 6 and St 36. He can barely

>stand that. Other points are LI 4, 11; and Lu 7. I have tried other points

>without lasting success.

>

>Lately he has had so much discomfort in his feet that he has been taking

>amitriptyline. This really doesn't help, he stays awake tossing and turning

>all night and then sleeps all day, amitriptyline or no amitriptyline.

>

>Any help will be most appreciated.

>

>Regards,

>

>Pete

___________

Any chance of a date of birth Pete?

Salvador

_______________

Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

February 19, 2004

Pete,

If treating locally at the feet is too painful for the patient, you

can try treating the hands for the feet, or the opposite leg while

moving the affected area, or scalp acupuncture. I took a seminar from

jeff nagel who treats non-affected areas because it sends the good qi

from the healthy area to the weakened area.

I had a patient of about the same age with peripheral neuropathy in

the legs from about ST38 down, and plum blossom helped him regain 80%

or better of feeling over a four month period. His neuropathy was due

to side effects of chemo however.

If you think it is safe to treat his back, since this seems to be

what originally caused the problem, perhaps you could treat the back

directly or use a microsystem - ear, hand, scalp to treat it

indirectly if local needling is unsafe.

--brian

February 19, 2004

pete,

There were two treatments that jeff nagel mentioned in particular for

cases similar to this, although they are more for pain.

hand san char (treating hand to treat foot, pick your favorite side

to treat, or both) - slightly proximal to ba xie in a groove between

the knuckles while making a loose fist and needling up to 2 inches

toward the junction of the metacarpals.

Loo's point (named after a dr. loo in hawaii, treat on opp side, but

I might try the affected side also if it doesn't work there) - midway

between UB62 and GB40. Needle the AhShi point.

Then move the affected part while the needles are in.

--brian

February 20, 2004

Hi Salvador!

Let me get back with that.

At 03:36 AM 2/19/2004, you wrote:

> >Hi Everybody!

> >

> >I have a 76 year old patient who is suffering from Peripheral Neuropathy.

> >This has bothered him since he had a back operation some time ago. He feels

> >like he is walking on pebbles in his shoes when he is in bed trying to

> >sleep. I think that either the inter-vertebral foramina are too small after

> >the surgery for the nerves to fit without being pressed or the area has

> >scar tissue pressing on the nerves. The surgeon who did this to him says

> >there is nothing that can be done about it. Gotta love them.

> >

> >He has an overall yin deficient presentation. Hidden pulse, Pale tongue

> >material, swollen with thin white coating and little moisture. He has

> >central obesity and dry mouth but he is not diabetic. I have him taking Liu

> >Wei Di Huang Pian and Tien Wang Bu Xin Dan with no effect so far, a couple

> >of weeks. The MD guys have him taking neurotin, Inderal, and some others

> >which I have listed at my office (at another location now) Yes, the western

> >meds could cause neuropathy, but most likely not with the timing of the

> >symptoms starting right after the surgery. He didn't start the meds until

> >he had the symptoms.

> >

> >The first several Acupuncture treatments helped him - he was almost symptom

> >free, and he couldn't even feel the needles but now he is super sensitive

> >to needling so I can't needle his feet any more and the symptoms are back.

> >I have been using stick on electrodes at the K 1 and Bafeng areas

> >connecting the other ends of the circuits to SP 6 and St 36. He can barely

> >stand that. Other points are LI 4, 11; and Lu 7. I have tried other points

> >without lasting success.

> >

> >Lately he has had so much discomfort in his feet that he has been taking

> >amitriptyline. This really doesn't help, he stays awake tossing and turning

> >all night and then sleeps all day, amitriptyline or no amitriptyline.

> >

> >Any help will be most appreciated.

> >

> >Regards,

> >

> >Pete

>___________

>

>Any chance of a date of birth Pete?

>

>Salvador

>

>_______________

>Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

>

>Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

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>

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>

February 20, 2004

Hi Brian!

Good ideas, thanks.

At 10:53 AM 2/19/2004, you wrote:

>Pete,

>

>If treating locally at the feet is too painful for the patient, you

>can try treating the hands for the feet, or the opposite leg while

>moving the affected area, or scalp acupuncture. I took a seminar from

>jeff nagel who treats non-affected areas because it sends the good qi

>from the healthy area to the weakened area.

>

>I had a patient of about the same age with peripheral neuropathy in

>the legs from about ST38 down, and plum blossom helped him regain 80%

>or better of feeling over a four month period. His neuropathy was due

>to side effects of chemo however.

>

>If you think it is safe to treat his back, since this seems to be

>what originally caused the problem, perhaps you could treat the back

>directly or use a microsystem - ear, hand, scalp to treat it

>indirectly if local needling is unsafe.

>

>--brian

>

>Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

>spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

>To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none,

>visit the groups' homepage:

>Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my

>membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

>

>To send an email to

><Chinese Medicine- > from the email

>account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still

>recieve messages for a few days.

>

February 20, 2004

Hi Brian!

More good ideas. Have you tried this on a PN patient?

At 11:08 AM 2/19/2004, you wrote:

>pete,

>

>There were two treatments that jeff nagel mentioned in particular for

>cases similar to this, although they are more for pain.

>

>hand san char (treating hand to treat foot, pick your favorite side

>to treat, or both) - slightly proximal to ba xie in a groove between

>the knuckles while making a loose fist and needling up to 2 inches

>toward the junction of the metacarpals.

>

>Loo's point (named after a dr. loo in hawaii, treat on opp side, but

>I might try the affected side also if it doesn't work there) - midway

>between UB62 and GB40. Needle the AhShi point.

>

>Then move the affected part while the needles are in.

>

>--brian

>

>Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious,

>spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

>To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none,

>visit the groups' homepage:

>Chinese Medicine/ click 'edit my

>membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

>

>To send an email to

><Chinese Medicine- > from the email

>account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still

>recieve messages for a few days.

>

February 20, 2004

Perhaps a more pertinent question would be, what caused the symptom?

If it involves nerves, perhaps something compromised Water?

Was it a Deficient Metal?

Or more likely, a Rampant Earth?

One may use local points to cause symptoms to abate, but never the cause.

Dr. Holmes Keikobad

MB BS DPH Ret. DIP AC NCCAOM LIC AC CO & AZ

www.acu-free.com - home based recertification for acupuncturists and health

professionals

February 20, 2004

Pete,

I haven't tried this on a PN patient, just the plum blossom mentioned

earlier. I think one of the reasons it worked is because the patient

also administered it at home daily. I suppose now I might be inclined

to try scalp acupuncture first, but I would certainly be willing to

give it a shot.

The earlier post about diabetes jogged my memory a bit about a kiiko

matsumoto treatment for diabetic neuropathy. I think this is in the

book entitled something like " western case studies " with a purple

cover. It was a comprehensive case study, but the one part I remember

is inserting needles into the leg where the numbness begins and angle

downwards as if pushing the numbness out of the feet. She claimed in

that writeup that the neuropathy went away on most patients until it

was a just a point at KD1.

Also, if you don't have space for herbs yourself, there are places

that will compile a formula for you and send it out to the patient.

(If the patient will take it.) I don't remember where these places

are now though, just that others have mentioned it.

--brian

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petet@a...> wrote:

> Hi Brian!

>

> More good ideas. Have you tried this on a PN patient?

>

> At 11:08 AM 2/19/2004, you wrote:

>

> >pete,

> >

> >There were two treatments that jeff nagel mentioned in particular

for

> >cases similar to this, although they are more for pain.

> >

> >hand san char (treating hand to treat foot, pick your favorite side

> >to treat, or both) - slightly proximal to ba xie in a groove

between

> >the knuckles while making a loose fist and needling up to 2 inches

> >toward the junction of the metacarpals.

> >

> >Loo's point (named after a dr. loo in hawaii, treat on opp side,

but

> >I might try the affected side also if it doesn't work there) -

midway

> >between UB62 and GB40. Needle the AhShi point.

> >

> >Then move the affected part while the needles are in.

> >

> >--brian

> >

February 20, 2004

Pete, et al,

I have done many cases of PN with great success.

Needling local points is not often done. Even when it's done I use

the " ankle " part of " wrist and ankle needles. "

Traditional scalp needles is what I usually start with.

In a lot of cases this will result in great improvements right in the

first session, as the patient can move around to improve circulation

and experience the improvement.

Some hand points of the opposite side (e.g., LI10) might be added

to boost the improvement.

A very important point of this style is, do ask the patient to move around

and challenge the angles that used to incur pain gradually. The patients

will typically experience the improvement in 1 to 10 minutes.

Give it a try!

Mike L.

briansbeard <brian_s_beard wrote:

Pete,

I haven't tried this on a PN patient, just the plum blossom mentioned

earlier. I think one of the reasons it worked is because the patient

also administered it at home daily. I suppose now I might be inclined

to try scalp acupuncture first, but I would certainly be willing to

give it a shot.

The earlier post about diabetes jogged my memory a bit about a kiiko

matsumoto treatment for diabetic neuropathy. I think this is in the

book entitled something like " western case studies " with a purple

cover. It was a comprehensive case study, but the one part I remember

is inserting needles into the leg where the numbness begins and angle

downwards as if pushing the numbness out of the feet. She claimed in

that writeup that the neuropathy went away on most patients until it

was a just a point at KD1.

Also, if you don't have space for herbs yourself, there are places

that will compile a formula for you and send it out to the patient.

(If the patient will take it.) I don't remember where these places

are now though, just that others have mentioned it.

--brian

Chinese Medicine , Pete Theisen

<petet@a...> wrote:

> Hi Brian!

>

> More good ideas. Have you tried this on a PN patient?

>

> At 11:08 AM 2/19/2004, you wrote:

>

> >pete,

> >

> >There were two treatments that jeff nagel mentioned in particular

for

> >cases similar to this, although they are more for pain.

> >

> >hand san char (treating hand to treat foot, pick your favorite side

> >to treat, or both) - slightly proximal to ba xie in a groove

between

> >the knuckles while making a loose fist and needling up to 2 inches

> >toward the junction of the metacarpals.

> >

> >Loo's point (named after a dr. loo in hawaii, treat on opp side,

but

> >I might try the affected side also if it doesn't work there) -

midway

> >between UB62 and GB40. Needle the AhShi point.

> >

> >Then move the affected part while the needles are in.

> >

> >--brian

> >

Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear, religious, spam

messages,flame another member or swear.

To change your email settings, i.e. individually, daily digest or none, visit

the groups’ homepage:

Chinese Medicine/ click ‘edit my

membership' on the right hand side and adjust accordingly.

To send an email to

<Chinese Medicine- > from the email

account you joined with. You will be removed automatically but will still

recieve messages for a few days.

February 21, 2004

Hi Salvador!

Jan 13,1930.

I have another one with PN. This man has had PN for two and a half years

since a failed back operation. His MRI shows *many* disk protrusions,

nearly all of the disks. My speculation is that the weight of his immense

belly is forcing his spine to compress and force the disks to protrude. His

pain is so great that he cannot stand up straight. His date of birth is

March 11, 1926.

He said he had a reduced appetite. It turns out that his appetite used to

be stupendously, redundantly, unbelievably excessive and now is only very

excessive. So we can add " Stomach Heat " to the differentiation. Other

Examination findings follow:

" Observe " Examination:

Unhealthy complexion. Yes. (no spirit)

Dark or unclear face color. Yes. (no spirit)

Breathing with a readily noticeable sound. Yes. (no spirit)

Slow or no movement. Yes. (deficient cold, usually spleen)

Tremors or convulsions. Yes. (interior wind of the liver)

Green face color (indicates a Liver pattern, interior Cold, pain or

interior Wind)

Large chest & epigastrium. Yes.

Fat body. Yes. (Central obesity)

Clear thin phlegm, cold pattern

earlobe crack is heart.

lack of movement, slow movements Yin, Empty (deficient) Cold.

Observe the lips. Purple.

Healthy color around wrists and ankles. Yes.

Pale nails. Yes.

Observe the Thenar Eminence. OK

Tongue color. Red on purple side.

Tongue shape. Fat.

Tongue coating. White.

Tongue moisture. Moist

Time of day that there is sweating. (When low sugar)

Severe giddiness, everything seems to sway, loss of balance. Yes.

Slight dizziness with a feeling of heaviness in the head. Yes.

Sudden onset of dizziness. Yes.

Sharp stabbing pain usually in a fixed location. Yes. (blood stasis)

Listen & smell

Crying. Yes. (related to metal, lung deficiency)

Foul, rotten nauseating odor like rotten meat or rotten eggs. Yes. (Kidney

or bladder damp heat, or heat in any organ)

Rancid or goatish, wood; Scorched or burning, fire; Fleshy or rank, metal

and Rotten or putrid, water (or heat in any organ)

Palpate:

Systolic blood pressure (Optimal <120; 117

Diastolic blood pressure (Optimal <80; 60

Heart rate. 83

Sinking pulse. Yes. (yin, internal disharmony or obstruction)

Itchy skin. Yes. (wind)

Patterns: No spirit; deficient cold; interior wind of liver; blood stasis;

internal deficiency; lung deficiency; Kidney bladder damp heat.

Organs: Liver, spleen, kidney, Heart, bladder.

Back pain due to disk protrusion pressing on nerves, aggravated by overweight.

Sp 6; St 36; LI 4, 11; Lu 7. Back shu & front mu of various organs, as

convenient.

Liu Wei Di Huang Pian (Kidney, liver)

Fratkin patent chapter 12Hx

Weight reduction would be helpful, and in the light of reduced appetite,

convenient.

(no spirit)

(deficient cold, usually spleen)

(interior wind of the liver)

(indicates a Liver pattern, interior Cold, pain or interior Wind)

(blood stasis)

(yin, internal disharmony or obstruction)

(related to metal, lung deficiency)

(Kidney or bladder damp heat, or heat in any organ)

Wood, fire, water (or heat in any organ)