re:Outcome of Vit.C/ascorbic acid studies

[Guest guest]

I took a look at the website you pointed out, Suni. In law

as well as scientific research, there is a concept which I know of as

the weight of evidence. On Dr.Grisanti's webpage he has lots of

underlined words, but they are not hyperlinks to websites backing up

his allegations, there are just words underlined for emphasis. On

his entire page he has *4* links to studies to back up his claims.

 

In contrast, if you go here:

http://alternative-medicine-message-boards.info/viewtopic.php?t=80

and here:

http://alternative-medicine-message-boards.info/viewtopic.php?t=81

where I posted 2 long composites on the benefits of vitamin C which

Frank had originally posted here on this list. There are *hundreds*

of citations to original literature if you follow all the many links

to other web essays.

 

Dr.Grisanti is a doctor of Chiropractic. His schooling in

nutrition was probably no more extensive than mine & I consider

myself a rank amateur in the field of human nutrition.

 

Let's take the first reference Dr.Grisanti gives (snippets

below):

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/34/11/2389?maxtoshow= & HITS=10 & hits=10 & R\

ESULTFORMAT= & searchid=1022630616366_7335 & stored_search= & FIRSTINDEX=70 & fdate=11/1\

/1981 & tdate=12/31/1981 & journalcode=ajcn

" Effect of ascorbic acid on copper and cholesterol in adult

cynomolgus monkeys fed a diet marginal in copper

" Cholesterol levels continued to increase in the group receiving the

higher ascorbic acid supplement (25 mg/day/kg body weight). "

 

I did some cursory web research. So far as I could tell,

cynomolgus monkeys make their own vitamin C, same as every animal I

know of except for humans & guinea pigs. Linus Pauling states (

http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/video/Clip384.rm ) that 12 grams is

about the same amount of C an animal would manufacture if it were

Dr.Pauling's body weight. Now I have never weighed Dr.Pauling or met

him in person, but he looks like a rather slender fellow. I would

estimate his weight at about 80 Kg or less, which would make an

animal's daily production of C to be about 150 mg./Kg. without any

external supplementation.

 

Does it really make any sense that adding 25 mg/kg of C on

top of the 150 mg/kg which the money already produces internally

would cause that effect? I strongly suspect something else is going

on which the researchers aren't talking about.

 

 

 

I have no idea if Grisanti is one of the many people who have

allowed themselves to be mislead by anti-vitamin C hype, or if his

motives are more malicious. But I can sure say I do not trust his

attempts to scare people away from vitamin C.

 

Alobar

 

 

-

" suni j chat " <suni_C

 

Friday, October 03, 2003 11:40 AM

re:Outcome of Vit.C/ascorbic

acid studies

 

 

>

> Hi,

>

> I have an open mind on this topic at the moment, but Dr. Grisanti

had a report on this a few weeks back, and had some clickable links

at the bottom to some studies (I am not sure if the links will come

through, but are on the original web page). It would be nice to hear

some comments, as it did worry me a bit.

> Regards,

> Suni

>

>

> http://www.drgrisanti.com/VitaminC.htm

>

> Vitamin C is probably the nutrient that has been most recommended,

for the most people, with the greatest diversity of health problems,

for many, many years. Vitamin C, you are told, works its magic by

virtue of its anti-oxidant properties. It has been promoted as " good

for " almost any condition you can name. It is hyped over and over

again by the pill peddlers as something that everyone should take in

supplemental doses, and even in mega doses. Along with all the

promises of cures and prevention from taking Vitamin C you are

assured over and over again that no amount of Vitamin C can be

harmful to you. After all, Vitamin C is all " natural, " so your body

can use what it needs, while any excess is " harmlessly " excreted in

your urine.

>

> PREPARE YOURSELF FOR A STRONG DOSE OF THE TRUTH

>

> Do you know that Vitamin C depletes your body of many mineral and

trace mineral nutrients?

>

> The truth is that your kidneys cannot excrete Vitamin C at all

without combining it with an important mineral nutrient such as

calcium or magnesium or zinc. Every single molecule of excess

Vitamin C that gets dumped in your urine steals from you an important

mineral nutrient.

>

> Do you know that Vitamin C will particularly cause a deficiency in

the essential trace mineral copper?

>

> Do you know that excess Vitamin C will actually cause high

cholesterol?

>

> Do you know that excessive Vitamin C can destroy the pH control of

certain patients making them more susceptible to certain physical and

mental conditions?

>

> Do you know that Vitamin C depletes the body of important minerals

such as calcium and magnesium?

>

> Do you know that Vitamin C can so deplete a person of copper that

the blood vessels begin to break down and the heart is weakened?

>

> Do you know that Vitamin C can elevate cholesterol in certain

patients?

>

> Do you know that excess Vitamin C can damage the DNA (the genetic

material inside each of your cells) and also damage cell membranes

because of its oxidant (not anti-oxidant) activity?

>

> Do you know that because it is such a strong oxidant (not

anti-oxidant) more than 500 milligrams of Vitamin C will cause the

formation in your DNA of oxoadenine, a powerfully damaging toxin

which particularly will harm the heart and other organs?

>

> Do you know that Vitamin C will convert the mineral iron to a form

that damages the blood vessels and leads to hardening of the arteries

and heart blockage?

>

> Do you know that Vitamin C can auto-oxidize, and instead of being

an anti-oxidant to protect you against free radical damage, will

actually cause free radical damage?

>

> This oxidation of Vitamin C occurs most easily in the presence of

minerals such as iron, manganese, and chromium. When excess Vitamin

C is taken with these mineral nutrients you are particularly likely

to suffer free radical damage.

>

> Do you know that excess Vitamin C will cause the formation of the

toxic chemical pentosadine, a marker of premature aging and tissue

destruction?

>

> Do you know that Vitamin C causes destruction of proteins in your

body that will accelerate the aging process?

>

> This acceleration of aging by Vitamin C is particularly pronounced

in anyone with a diabetic tendency. The protein destructive effects

of Vitamin C are particularly associated with cataract formation.

>

> Do you know that Vitamin C in doses greater than 180 milligrams is

a total waste of money because it is not absorbed and tends to cause

gas and bloating in your intestinal tract?

>

> Eighty to ninety percent of Vitamin C is absorbed up to a dose of

180 milligrams, but beyond that, absorption decreases rapidly so that

at 5000 milligrams doses only 24% is absorbed, while the rest just

irritates your digestive system.

>

> Do you know that Vitamin C (which is supposed to be " good for the

immune system " ) will actually increase the incidence and spread of

cancer?

>

> Are you beginning to get a little nervous about the Vitamin C that

you have been taking?

>

> Do you see how you have been mislead by the health food industry

about Vitamin C? Or, should we quit pulling our punches and tell it

straight.

>

> YOU ARE BEING LIED TO BY THE HEALTH FOOD INDUSTRY

>

> You are being deliberately deceived. You are being cheated out of

the health you've invested so much in preserving. It is you, the

health-conscious person who is being cheated the most, since the more

nutrition supplements you take the more you are being damaged by a

viciously deceptive industry -- one that has won you over with

promises of health, youth and vitality, all the while taking your

money for pills and potions that actually make you weaker and sicker.

>

>

>

> Dr. Grisanti's Comments:

>

> Although many people may find this article hard to swallow (excuse

the pun), the facts are the facts. Vitamin C in excess of 200mgs. is

strongly discouraged. The continued consumption of excessive Vitamin

C will undoubtedly cause significant biochemical imbalances leading

to a number of health challenges.

>

> References:

>

> 1. DB Milne, ST Omaye, and WH Amos, Jr Effect of ascorbic acid on

copper and cholesterol in adult cynomolgus monkeys fed a diet

marginal in copper Am J Clin Nutr 1981 34: 2389-2393. [Abstract]

>

> 2. EJ Root and JB Longenecker, Brain cell alterations suggesting

premature aging induced by dietary deficiency of vitamin B6 and/or

copper Am J Clin Nutr 1983 37: 540-552. [Abstract]

>

> 3. KM Brown, PC Morrice, and GG Duthie Erythrocyte vitamin E and

plasma ascorbate concentrations in relation to erythrocyte

peroxidation in smokers and nonsmokers: dose response to vitamin E

supplementation Am J Clin Nutr 1997 65: 496-502. Abstract]

>

> 4. MD Festa, HL Anderson, RP Dowdy, and MR Ellersieck Effect of

zinc intake on copper excretion and retention in men Am J Clin Nutr

1985 41: 285-292. [Abstract]

>

> 5. FEBS Letter. 1998 Oct 16; 437 (1-2): 24-28.

>

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>

[Guest guest]

There are a lot of great men that would completely disagree with you:

Pauling, Stone, Cathcart etc

Maybe this Dr Grisanti has an ulterior motive.

Graeme Ellis

The Goldfields

Western Australia

 

 

 

-

" suni j chat " <suni_C

 

Saturday, October 04, 2003 12:40 AM

re:Outcome of Vit.C/ascorbic acid

studies

 

 

 

Hi,

 

I have an open mind on this topic at the moment, but Dr. Grisanti had a

report on this a few weeks back, and had some clickable links at the bottom

to some studies (I am not sure if the links will come through, but are on

the original web page). It would be nice to hear some comments, as it did

worry me a bit.

Regards,

Suni