Guest guest Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 Hi Kelly, The person I had the discussion with (not sure if it was this list or another) was sure Duesbberg created AIDS in the lab & now wants to pretend HIV is not the cause. You give useful links. I sure do not have the time to begin looking tonight before bed. But I shall certainly read thru them as I get the time. You might want to take some of the more interesting ones & post to this list if you have the time. By no means do I think Duesberg has all the answers. He merely points out that Gallo has no substantiating research. So far nobody has yet gone thru Koch's postulates to demonstrate that *any* organism is the causative agent of AIDS. Whether AIDS is related to a break down of the immune system from drugs, environmental poisons, or something else, it sure looks to me (as a total non-expert) that AIDS is indeed a syndrome -- an inter-twined set of symptoms which may or may not have a singe causative agent. Alobar - " Kelly Jon Landis " <kjlandis Friday, September 26, 2003 8:28 PM Re: The War On " AIDS " ... > Hey Alobar and All, > > It may have been me as I have posted AIDS Dissident Scientific > resources and information here previously. Boyd Graves and Horowitz > are conspiratorialists and not part of the movement to reappraise or > rethink the 'HIV/AIDS' hypothesis, also known as AIDS Dissidents. > This is the first I have ever heard that Peter Deusberg created 'HIV' > in some lab. Anyway, he is a retrovirus pioneer once praise by Gallo, > the socalled co-discoverer. Retroviruses are the class of viruses > 'HIV' is supposed to be and which were once thought the cause of > cancer and leukemia in the 1970s. He, along with some AIDS Dissident > Scientists, say that 'HIV' is a harmless passenger retrovirus, like > most retroviruses which are a part of all of genetic make-up and have > never been shown to be disease-causing. And I would agree some of > Peter Deusbergs research has been found lacking, specifically as to > the causes of 'AIDS' attributed illnesses as being primarily drug > related. This has been perhaps most successfully disputed by the > Perth Group of Australian AIDS Dissident Scientists lead by Dr. Eleni > Papadopulos-Eleopulos. Please see the links below. They and many > other AIDS Dissident Scientists say that 'HIV' has never been > properly isolated and cannot be accurately tested for. In either > case, they are both saying it is unecessary to test for or > treat 'HIV.' The other misunderstanding of AIDS Dissidents is that we > accept the definition and diagnosis of what is called 'AIDS' and > merely dispute it's cause or causes, whether it is 'HIV' or other co- > factors/co-causes. Although some AIDS Dissidents refer to 'AIDS' they > do not accept the CDC classification requiring 'HIV' infection and > one or more of the 29 'AIDS' defining conditons. They are instead > referring to AID or Aquired Immune Deficiency of which there are many > known co-causes. In fact, Alternative Medicine would likely say that > all illness is related to a socalled 'immune deficiency.' > > Did you know there were hundreds of dissenting or dissident > scientists, Nobel Laureates and Members of the National Academy of > Sciences, who are confirming Alternative Medicine's long questioning > of the virus/germ mode or 'one-cause, one-course' drug-based model? I > support fully informed consent and a free scientific inquiry and > access to alternative health care. Unfortunately, much of the AIDS > Industry does not respect these basic health and human rights. No > conspiracy is required in order for popular concensus to have lead to > false conclusions. It is an epidemic of ignorance, arrogence, fear > and greed. > > > > RESOURCES FOR FURTHER RESEARCH: > > > The GROUP for the SCIENTIFIC REAPPRAISAL > of the HIV/AIDS HYPOTHESIS [3000+ pages of articles, papers] > http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/find.htm > > BRITISH MEDICAL JOURNAL [bMJ] > MODERATED ONLINE DEBATE ON HIV/AIDS > http://bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7387/495 > > [especially note referenced contributions of The Perth Group of > Austrailian AIDS Dissident Scientists, lead by biophysicist Eleni > Papadopulos-Eleopulos, whose other extensive archives are found here] > http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/perthgroup/ > > > Roberto Giraldo, MD > President of The Group for the Scientific Reappraisal of the HIV/AIDS > Hypothesis http://www.robertogiraldo.com/eng/papers/papers.html > > > REBUTTAL TO NIAID/NIH " Evidence for HIV " DOCUMENT > http://www.healtoronto.com/nih > > > INTERNATIONAL AIDS PANEL, INTERIM REPORT > Synthesis of deliberations by the panel of experts invited by the > President of South Africa, Thabo Mbeki and the ten experiments the > Panel designed in attempt to resolve the controversy, endorsed by the > African National Congress > [AIDS Dissidents/'Denialists' and AIDS Apologists/Orthodoxy] > http://www.polity.org.za/govdocs/reports/aids/aidspanel.htm > > REBUTTAL TO DURBAN DECLARATION > http://thedurbandeclaration.org/ > > HEAL [Health Education AIDS Liason] > http://www.healtoronto.com > > > ANOTHER LOOK [breastfeeding and 'HIV/AIDS'] > http://www.anotherlook.org > > MOMM [Mothers Opposing Mandatory Medicine] > http://www.informedmomm.com > > > ALIVE and WELL > http://www.aliveandwell.org > > > AIDS MYTH EXPOSED > [Largest AIDS message board on MSN] > http://www.aidsmythexposed.com > > > > HIV/AIDS ALTERNATIVE VIEWS > [Forum on Delphi Network] > http://forums.about.com/innocuous > > > SIGN and READ OVER 7,000 ONLINE SIGNATORIES OF THE PETITION TO > SUPPORT SOUTH AFRICAN PRESIDENT THABO MBEKI's SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH > ABOUT THE DEFINITION, DIAGNOSIS, CAUSATION AND PREVENTION > OF 'HIV/AIDS:' http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/news/mbeki.htm > > > Will you offer the human, moral response by adding your voices in > supporting: > > FULLY INFORMED CONSENT, before someone is given information about > 'HIV/AIDS' or given an 'HIV' antibody test, given a diagnosis of > death and told to expect illness with 'AIDS' or prescribed up to > forty highly toxic, experimental chemo-therapy like drugs. The AIDS > Industry should provide access to AIDS Alternative resources and > information, including those dissenting from, and uncomplementary to, > the dominant, conventional pharmaceutically-based medical model for > the alleged viral pathogenesis and progression of 'HIV=AIDS.' > > FREE SCIENTIFIC INQUIRY and EXCHANGE, end to AIDS Apologist arrogance > and ignorance in not supporting even 1% of research, education and > health care dollars directed to exploring outside the virus/germ 'one- > cause, one-course or cure' drug-based model-- including the Dissident > Scientific and Alternative Medicine paradigm and protocols. > > PROPORTIONATE ACCESS TO ALTERNATIVE HEALTH CARE, when more than > 50% of those 'HIV/AIDS' diagnosed do not avail conventional drug > therapies and 40-69% of Americans use some form of Alternative > Medicine-- AIDS Apologists do not support even 1% of the health care > budget in providing primary Alternative Health Care which is more > cost effective and at least as clinically efficacious without major > side effects. > > The CDC/NIH/NIAID/NCCAM currently do not fund any research outside > the dominant, conventional medical model, research that challenges or > does not accept without question, the 'HIV' theory of immuno- > deficiency. Dissident Scientists and Advocates and Alternative > Medicine Physicians and Consumers are addressing the health of such > persons given an 'HIV/AIDS' [mis]diagnosis, though are not involved > in treating 'HIV' or 'AIDS' as we do not accept the evidence as > sufficient in establishing 'HIV' non-specific antibody response, > indicating anything more than past exposure, current immunity or one, > possible indicator of a stressed immune system. We also do not accept > the evidence as sufficient establishing the 'AIDS' definition valid > as diagnosis, since all of the 'AIDS' defining conditions occur in > those who test 'HIV' negative, and all have seperate causes and > treatments unrelated to 'HIV' or 'AIDS.' The definition and diagnosis > of 'AIDS' is therefore a circular construct, in which 29 old > illnesses are lumped under a new classification called 'AIDS' only in > persons who test 'HIV' positive-- whatever that non-specific marker > means. > > HOW CAN YOU HELP? > > By communicating these concerns to your local 'HIV/AIDS' service > provider, AIDS organization, community center, religious or civic > leaders and representatives-- you can become a part of the solution > in peace-making and justice-pursuing in this matter. Persons are > being given a diagnosis of death, told to expect illness and > prescribed up to 40 highly toxic and experimental drugs known to > cause many of the 'AIDS' [re]defining conditions. Messages from this > billion dollar health scare campaign teach people to fear sex and > equate love-making with life-taking. > > If enough people hear from enough all of us, it will make a > difference with policy makers and program personel. > > == > > If not you, who will be the answer? > If not you, who will heal the cancer? > If not you . . . who? > > Who will tell the children that they can fly? > Who will play the catcher in the rye? > Where are the teachers who ask the reasons why? > In the schools the minds all die. > > > > , " Alobar " > <alobar@b...> wrote: > > I am not sure if it was you or someone else I had this dame > > discussion with some time ago. At that time I was given weblinks > > which supposedly *proved* Peter Duesberg helped create HIV, and I > > found absolutely no proof -- only allegations. I have read Peter > > Duesberg and the others who have similar theories. They seem the > > most reasonable & logical to me. > > > > BTW, would you please give website URLs for the statements > > you make about Duesberg? Even if I disagree with the authors, on > > this list we like to have allegations substantiated so interested > > persons can check into things which you may feel are obvious facts. > > > > With regard to poppers -- I know people in the gay > community, > > including one synthetic organic chemist. They pointed out to me > > that the government outlawed poppers (amyl nitrite) which has > > negative impact on the systems of heavy users, but permit butyl > > nitrite and other solvents which have a far greater impact on immune > > systems of even moderate users. Nitrous oxide (which ahs almost no > > negative impact compared to the aforementioned solvents) is almost > > universally unavailable on the retail market because of laws > > forbidding their use as a recreational drug. All recreational > drugs > > have an impact on the body, and upon heavy users especially -- but > > when the most benign of those drugs becomes unavailable but the far > > more harmful drugs remain readily available, the impact upon public > > health is sure to be a negative one. > > > > Alobar > > > > > > - > > " F. M. Nicoll " <fmn@t...> > > > > Friday, September 26, 2003 11:13 AM > > Re: The War On " AIDS " ... > > > > > > > Hi there! It amazes me that people still buy poppers. It was one > of > > the > > > first things that was suspected, as linked to AIDS and > particularly > > > K.S.--as well as the Hepatitis B vaccine's link to AIDS. However, > > there > > > are people who have used poppers for years and do not have AIDS. > > Len > > > Horrowitz and Boyd Graves have demonstrated the link to the > > Hepatitis B > > > vaccines (and named the specific batches which had been > > deliberately > > > contaminated). The Mycoplasma link goes back more than 10 years, > > and > > > it's a theme which will not go away. Horrowitz & Graves have > > described > > > it as " viral armour " , and it's certainly capable of destroying the > > > immune system over years. Natural therapies have been used since > > the > > > beginning of the epidemic, and continue to be used. The search for > > > effective, non-pharmaceutical therapies is ongoing, even in > > " guerilla > > > clinical trials " conducted by the people affected by the illness. > > This > > > is a very stubborn disease! People with AIDS have to take charge > of > > > their own care, and many do. Yes, I've seen guys murdered by their > > > doctors, getting the best treatment available. So called > mavericks, > > like > > > Peter Duesberg, are unreliable. His tune is unchanged over the > > years, > > > and his theories are so full of holes--with many people who don't > > fit > > > into his model of causation. He was involved in the creation of > > HIV, a > > > consultant to the special (secret) virus program at Fort Dietrick, > > as > > > were other scientists. Neither science nor medicine can be relied > > upon, > > > as both have prostituted themselves to the military in a genocidal > > > program. Steve > > > > > > Allen Graves wrote: > > > > > > >Let's face it..ALL of the cause(s) of " AIDS " , and all of the > > cure(s) are known! In the beginning, widespread use of `Poppers' ( > > nitrites ) caused KS and PCP. That was the first " AIDS " . Then a > > lunatic conned the worlds into believing that he had isolated a new > > virus, and without peer review of his `findings' , he called a news > > conference, and all the rules changed. And changed, and changed > > again, over the years. > > > > > > > >They dragged AZT off of the shelves in Dr. Frankenstein's > > sub-basement vault, and began killing people. Then, when it was > > getting close to being figured out, they sold the company and ran > for > > the hills. In 1993, while actual numbers of sick people were > > declining, finally, thanks to the reduction in prescribing AZT, the > > definition was changed to include perfectly healthy people. > > > > > > > >They invented `medications' that interfered with the life cycle > of > > the cells, a vital life-sustaining process, and started killing > > people a little bit more slowly. And STILL blamed it on " HIV " . Now > > " AIDS " is virtually every disease known to man. Especially, the > > iatrogenic ones...'vaccinations' that have injected massive amounts > > of the popluation with unknown toxins ( NOT `inactive viruses', as > is > > commonly believed ), antibiotics that cripple the immune system, > > circling, in-your-face " bone-pointers " who insist you are dying and > > do everything they can to prove it to defend their belief system, > > their jobs, and the status-quo that created them. Play by their > rules > > and you lose. > > > > > > > >Everything toxic to the body, in one form or another, from > > man-made environmental toxins to fungi, bacteria and parasites are > > blamed on the " HIV " fiction. There is NO sample of isolated HIV > > anywhere. There aren't even any " retroviruses " , or " oncoviruses " or > > whatever side-step they've taken in terminology to disguise the > > original mis-understanding of Revererse Transcription being > naturally > > present in many biological processes. > > > > > > > >The tests are bad science, and used to prove their own validity. > > The " HIV Antibody " test can't detect " HIV " (which is really only > > cellular debris), nor can it even detect actual antibodies!. T Cells > > counts IN THE BLOOD vary widely among different people and CANNOT be > > taken as a measure of health. PCR does not count active virus. > > > > > > > > " AIDS " ( whatever that might be in each individual case ) is > > cured very simply with anti-oxidants, vitamins, and other natural, > > healthy substances, and prevented with a return to a healthy, > natural > > lifestyle. NOT " life-extending " Phama-Toxins that only maim and kill > > more slowly. > > > > > > > > " AIDS " really stands for " Acquired Intelligence Deficiency > > Syndrome " , to quote Lanka, and should be renamed " Acquired Energy > > Deficiency Syndrome " . Which is what many activists seem to have > > acqured...get the word out! Get OFF the DRUGS...which is anything > > that NATURE ( or God, depending on your belief system, which is what > > sustains you and which is really the most important issue to > > address ) didn't create. " AIDS " is over, but the WAR on HUMANITY > isn > > 't. > > > > > > > >-Allen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-Allen Graves IBWB ( U.S.A. ) > > > > " Do not let either the medical authorities nor the politicians > > mislead you. Find out what the facts are, and make your own > decisions > > about how to live a happy life and how to work for a better > world. " - > > Linus Pauling > > > > > > > > Sites that I've found to be helpful/informative ; > > > > > > > > aidscured A good forum > for > > those who are seeking a non-pharmaceutical solution to illness(es). > > > > AIDSsoc This forum > > focuses on the societal aspects of the " AIDS " myth. > > > > http://www.aliveandwell.com A more rational, informed > > perspective on " AIDS " . > > > > http://www.virusmyth.com Exposing the erroneous science > > behind current " HIV/AIDS " thinking. > > > > http://www.aidsmythexposed.com Forum with a " WAR On AIDS > > Science " conscious focus. > > > > > > > > Sites of " ultimate concern " ; > > > > > > > > http://www.lucistrust.org/links/index.shtml > > > > http://www.lucistrust.org/goodwill/links.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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