Guest guest Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 Hello again Barbanne, I should add that I always recommend that any herbs/vitamins/supplements be taken for 6 days only with a rest on the 7th (where have I hard that before? lol) and also to take herbs for only 3 weeks with a break of one week before resuming. The same herb shouldn't be taken for long extended periods of time unless under the guidance of an experienced herbal practitioner. It's rather easy to 'lean' on remedies that work for you and this can become very counter productive. Nerys My latest books at: www.neryspurchon.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 I have heard similar things about not taking certain herbs all the time. But I never heard it about vitamins before. Got any web references as to why one should not take vitamins daily? I have been taking vitamins daily now for the past 35 or so years. If I am not doing it right, I'd sure like to know. Alobar - " Ravenna " <ravenna Wednesday, September 24, 2003 11:40 PM Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > Hello again Barbanne, > > I should add that I always recommend that any herbs/vitamins/supplements be > taken for 6 days only with a rest on the 7th (where have I hard that before? > lol) and also to take herbs for only 3 weeks with a break of one week before > resuming. The same herb shouldn't be taken for long extended periods of time > unless under the guidance of an experienced herbal practitioner. > > It's rather easy to 'lean' on remedies that work for you and this can become > very counter productive. > > Nerys > My latest books at: > www.neryspurchon.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 > I have heard similar things about not taking certain herbs > all the time. But I never heard it about vitamins before. Got any > web references as to why one should not take vitamins daily? Hi Alobar, No...no web references, just a long lifetime of experience and years of study. In comparison to centuries of herbal use and knowledge, the study of vitamins and minerals is comparatively new and opinions and recommendations change almost daily (as the do for dietary requirements). We cannot know for sure whether or not we are taking more of a substance than our body has a need for or can even tolerate. I'm sure that you know that many vitamins such as A and D can be overused. One day a week to rest can give us a 'safety zone'. That's it. I'm happy for you that you are contented with your vitamin regime...after all, we know our own bodies best :-) Cheers, Nerys My latest books at: www.neryspurchon.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 In a message dated 9/24/2003 10:48:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, alobar writes: I have been taking vitamins daily now for the past 35 or so years. If I am not doing it right, I'd sure like to know. that's funny. I would think after 35 years you would know if you were experiencing a side effect. Why does everyone think vitamins are like meds? They are not. Elaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 In fact, I have some confidence that taking vitamins, minerals, etc., for long periods, makes good sense, if taken in moderate doses, and even in megadoses, " if " you study research on those supplements. I've taken ever increasing doses of various nutrients, after looking at research aimed at establishing efficacy and safety, over a period of 35 years. I've never been able to connect the taking of nutritional supplements with a single bad experience. I've been taking 1 and 1/2 gms of Niacin daily, in both the plain and flush-free forms. I've had some scary flushes, but have been assured by researchers that though these flushing experiences can be uncomfortable, they're harmless, and as the reasearchers have explained, the flushing tends to decline with prolonged use (and that adding high doses of Vit. C and a little aspirin, helps control the flushing, if you're taking the plain Niacin). Consider that millions of people take what I think are far more dangerous pharmaceuticals for decades. People take recreational drugs for decades, drink booze, smoke cigarettes, drink strong coffee, constantly take OTCs, etc., eat junk food constantly, abuse their bodies in thousands of ways; all of which tells me that, unless you're taking immense doses, and not paying any attention to research on what you're ingesting, you're pretty safe with " vitamins. " JP - " Ravenna " <ravenna Thursday, September 25, 2003 1:12 AM Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > > I have heard similar things about not taking certain herbs > > all the time. But I never heard it about vitamins before. Got any > > web references as to why one should not take vitamins daily? > > Hi Alobar, > > No...no web references, just a long lifetime of experience and years of study. > > In comparison to centuries of herbal use and knowledge, the study of vitamins > and minerals is comparatively new and opinions and recommendations change almost > daily (as the do for dietary requirements). We cannot know for sure whether or > not we are taking more of a substance than our body has a need for or can even > tolerate. I'm sure that you know that many vitamins such as A and D can be > overused. > > One day a week to rest can give us a 'safety zone'. That's it. > > I'm happy for you that you are contented with your vitamin regime...after all, > we know our own bodies best :-) > > Cheers, > > Nerys > My latest books at: > www.neryspurchon.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 In a message dated 9/25/2003 2:02:36 PM Pacific Standard Time, counterpnt writes: You say that after taking vitamins for 35 years, you may not be getting as much from them as you got when you first started. Of course that's possible. But it's also possible, that you're much more likely to get very little from supplements when you " first " use them, because the body may experience them as a strange and foreign nutrient; so that it may be, that the longer you use nutritional supplements, the more familiar your body and digestive system become to them. It's possible that the longer you take supplements the " more " you extract from them, because the body becomes accustomed to them. JP thanks. And it's also possible you may be aging, irregardless of exceptionally astute vitamin intake, and therefore the body is not utilizing them as well as it once did. Nevertheless, I do not consider vitamins as treatments for symptoms, that is what I meant. I consider them aimed, sometimes successfully, at the cause. Or else, if they are not, I do not consider them much above the typical symptom-oriented medication regime. Elaine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 > Why does everyone think vitamins are like meds? They are not. > Elaine Elaine, from my perspective and study, ANYTHING I put into or onto my body, including all foods, vitamins, as well as any other substances such as sprays/lotions or medicines, all have various effects, good, bad, and otherwise; as well as interactions with each other. I certainly realize the intent behind traditional drugs and the use of vitamins is very different. However, many people believe that ALL products, including food, should be taken a vacation from, whether one day a week, one week a month, etc. Allowing our bodies to release anything that is building up within us and readjust to their more natural state. There are many people who totally fast one week each month, and find incredible health benefits from doing so. We have a mind set that more is better if something is " ?good " for you. You don't know for sure how your body is dealing with any excess you are taking of any product or vitamin. Letting your system clear seems to allow your body to make better use of what you are taking when you are taking it, rather than building up an " immunity " to its good/needed effects. after 35 years of taking the same vitamins you may not be getting half of the good from them that you were initially. Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 Sara You may be making more of an assumption than you think, in the closing sentence of your reply to Elaine. You say that after taking vitamins for 35 years, you may not be getting as much from them as you got when you first started. Of course that's possible. But it's also possible, that you're much more likely to get very little from supplements when you " first " use them, because the body may experience them as a strange and foreign nutrient; so that it may be, that the longer you use nutritional supplements, the more familiar your body and digestive system become to them. It's possible that the longer you take supplements the " more " you extract from them, because the body becomes accustomed to them. JP - " Sara Joy " <sarajoy Thursday, September 25, 2003 12:55 PM Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > > > > Why does everyone think vitamins are like meds? They are not. > > Elaine > > Elaine, from my perspective and study, ANYTHING I put into or onto my > body, including all foods, vitamins, as well as any other substances > such as sprays/lotions or medicines, all have various effects, good, > bad, and otherwise; as well as interactions with each other. I > certainly realize the intent behind traditional drugs and the use of > vitamins is very different. However, many people believe that ALL > products, including food, should be taken a vacation from, whether one > day a week, one week a month, etc. Allowing our bodies to release > anything that is building up within us and readjust to their more > natural state. There are many people who totally fast one week each > month, and find incredible health benefits from doing so. We have a > mind set that more is better if something is " ?good " for you. You don't > know for sure how your body is dealing with any excess you are taking of > any product or vitamin. Letting your system clear seems to allow your > body to make better use of what you are taking when you are taking it, > rather than building up an " immunity " to its good/needed effects. > after 35 years of taking the same vitamins you may not be getting half > of the good from them that you were initially. > Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 I have read about the supposed benefits of fasting. I am dubious. Vitamins, for the most part, cannot be stored. From all I have read, vitamin deficiencies are not a good thing -- even for a day a week. Sure, most of us have enough stored fat & glycogen to get enough calories to burn for a day or even longer. I doubt I would starve to death fasting for a week. But my body would be in starvation mode after fasting for a week. I would be consuming my own muscle mass from within. Any food I ate after the fast would be socked away as fat because my body would be fearful of the next fast. These things sure do not seem healthy to me. Nobody wants to give the heart a rest for 24 hours. Or the lungs, or the endocrine system -- so why the gut? Sure, specialized juice fasts plus fiber can be good to clean the colon. Other specialized fasts can be good for the gallbladder if that is not working properly. But so far as I can figure out (which I by no means feel is complete) it is far better to feed the body 4 times a day, with minimal food late at night, along with megadoses of various vitamins several times a day each & every day. Alobar - " Sara Joy " <sarajoy Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:55 PM Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > > > > Why does everyone think vitamins are like meds? They are not. > > Elaine > > Elaine, from my perspective and study, ANYTHING I put into or onto my > body, including all foods, vitamins, as well as any other substances > such as sprays/lotions or medicines, all have various effects, good, > bad, and otherwise; as well as interactions with each other. I > certainly realize the intent behind traditional drugs and the use of > vitamins is very different. However, many people believe that ALL > products, including food, should be taken a vacation from, whether one > day a week, one week a month, etc. Allowing our bodies to release > anything that is building up within us and readjust to their more > natural state. There are many people who totally fast one week each > month, and find incredible health benefits from doing so. We have a > mind set that more is better if something is " ?good " for you. You don't > know for sure how your body is dealing with any excess you are taking of > any product or vitamin. Letting your system clear seems to allow your > body to make better use of what you are taking when you are taking it, > rather than building up an " immunity " to its good/needed effects. > after 35 years of taking the same vitamins you may not be getting half > of the good from them that you were initially. > Joy > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 actually, thats now generally how the body works with anything it takes in. All " active " reactions occur much more strongly first than over time. Stop for a short time and restart and you again get the strong effect. there are some things, especially herbal in nature, that you NEED to take over a period of time to get maximum benefit, not because the body doesn't react more strongly at first than later, but becasue they are effecting underlying causes/problems, and those things require time to unfold/remedy. That is ideally the way i work with all substances and remedies that I choose. But there is still a large benefit from taking at least short breaks in anything you are eating/consuming/using. If you don't do a complete fast for a day or more each month, than " fast " from one or more specific food/supplement on various days across the month, so that your body over the month gets a complete break from anything you are regularly using/ingesting. Anything my body has to adjust to/accomodate to so stringently that it takes days/weeks of its use before my body can tolerate it enough to make use of it - such a thing is probably not something i want to be utilizing in my body. I do muscle testing on which products I will use - not just when I first start a new supplement, but each day. My body often needs breaks of a day or two, get a strong NO on something as innocuous as vitamin C even, on a particular day. My body has never wanted to continue on any one supplement nonstop for a whole month. Never. The only my body wants more of consistently, each day, is pure filtered water. Joy John Polifronio wrote: > Sara > You may be making more of an assumption than you think, in the closing > sentence of your reply to Elaine. > You say that after taking vitamins for 35 years, you may not be getting as > much from them as you got when you first started. Of course that's > possible. But it's also possible, that you're much more likely to get very > little from supplements when you " first " use them, because the body may > experience them as a strange and foreign nutrient; so that it may be, that > the longer you use nutritional supplements, the more familiar your body and > digestive system become to them. It's possible that the longer you take > supplements the " more " you extract from them, because the body becomes > accustomed to them. > JP > - > " Sara Joy " <sarajoy > > Thursday, September 25, 2003 12:55 PM > Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > > > > > > > > > Why does everyone think vitamins are like meds? They are not. > > > Elaine > > > > Elaine, from my perspective and study, ANYTHING I put into or onto my > > body, including all foods, vitamins, as well as any other substances > > such as sprays/lotions or medicines, all have various effects, good, > > bad, and otherwise; as well as interactions with each other. I > > certainly realize the intent behind traditional drugs and the use of > > vitamins is very different. However, many people believe that ALL > > products, including food, should be taken a vacation from, whether one > > day a week, one week a month, etc. Allowing our bodies to release > > anything that is building up within us and readjust to their more > > natural state. There are many people who totally fast one week each > > month, and find incredible health benefits from doing so. We have a > > mind set that more is better if something is " ?good " for you. You don't > > know for sure how your body is dealing with any excess you are taking of > > any product or vitamin. Letting your system clear seems to allow your > > body to make better use of what you are taking when you are taking it, > > rather than building up an " immunity " to its good/needed effects. > > after 35 years of taking the same vitamins you may not be getting half > > of the good from them that you were initially. > > Joy > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 The more we talk the more complicated it gets. A " strong: effect, isn't necessarily equivalent to a " beneficial " one. A supplement can be toxic in very large doses, taken immediately, but tolerable in the same doses, when taken over a longer period, starting with smaller doses. I have far less concern with the water soluble vitamins and other supplements, than with the oil-soluble: A, D, E, etc., which can pose a problem, especially in certain forms. I have heart disease, and have been advised to not take much more than 600mg of Vit. E, though I'm not completely sure that this advice is sound. I still say, that long term use, may enable the body to better assimilate a tablet, capsule, etc., of an extract, which the body initially finds unfamiliar and unnatural in such concentrated form. The body, on repeated exposure, may become better and better able to utilize and metabolize these supplements, over time. I can't prove this, I'm just speculating. Health specialists, doctors and researchers, routinely tell people to start with low doses, for precisely the reason that the body must be given the opportunity to acclimate itself to an unfamiliar form of, or large dose of, a substance. Most important in these speculations, the metabolism of nutritional substances, may have as much to do with the quality and health of the digestive tract and system, as it does with frequency or magnitude of dosing. I've been taking digestive enzymes recently, that appear to be working, and though I've not yet researched this specific issue, I'm intrigued by the possibility that digestive enzymes may help us, not simply to better digest foods, but to better digest nutritional supplements, though I've never heard anyone talk about this. JP - " Sara Joy " <sarajoy Thursday, September 25, 2003 2:40 PM Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > actually, thats now generally how the body works with anything it takes > in. All " active " reactions occur much more strongly first than over > time. Stop for a short time and restart and you again get the strong > effect. there are some things, especially herbal in nature, that you > NEED to take over a period of time to get maximum benefit, not because > the body doesn't react more strongly at first than later, but becasue > they are effecting underlying causes/problems, and those things require > time to unfold/remedy. That is ideally the way i work with all > substances and remedies that I choose. But there is still a large > benefit from taking at least short breaks in anything you are > eating/consuming/using. If you don't do a complete fast for a day or > more each month, than " fast " from one or more specific food/supplement > on various days across the month, so that your body over the month gets > a complete break from anything you are regularly using/ingesting. > Anything my body has to adjust to/accomodate to so stringently that it > takes days/weeks of its use before my body can tolerate it enough to > make use of it - such a thing is probably not something i want to be > utilizing in my body. I do muscle testing on which products I will use > - not just when I first start a new supplement, but each day. My body > often needs breaks of a day or two, get a strong NO on something as > innocuous as vitamin C even, on a particular day. My body has never > wanted to continue on any one supplement nonstop for a whole month. > Never. The only my body wants more of consistently, each day, is pure > filtered water. Joy > > John Polifronio wrote: > > > Sara > > You may be making more of an assumption than you think, in the closing > > sentence of your reply to Elaine. > > You say that after taking vitamins for 35 years, you may not be getting as > > much from them as you got when you first started. Of course that's > > possible. But it's also possible, that you're much more likely to get very > > little from supplements when you " first " use them, because the body may > > experience them as a strange and foreign nutrient; so that it may be, that > > the longer you use nutritional supplements, the more familiar your body and > > digestive system become to them. It's possible that the longer you take > > supplements the " more " you extract from them, because the body becomes > > accustomed to them. > > JP > > - > > " Sara Joy " <sarajoy > > > > Thursday, September 25, 2003 12:55 PM > > Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why does everyone think vitamins are like meds? They are not. > > > > Elaine > > > > > > Elaine, from my perspective and study, ANYTHING I put into or onto my > > > body, including all foods, vitamins, as well as any other substances > > > such as sprays/lotions or medicines, all have various effects, good, > > > bad, and otherwise; as well as interactions with each other. I > > > certainly realize the intent behind traditional drugs and the use of > > > vitamins is very different. However, many people believe that ALL > > > products, including food, should be taken a vacation from, whether one > > > day a week, one week a month, etc. Allowing our bodies to release > > > anything that is building up within us and readjust to their more > > > natural state. There are many people who totally fast one week each > > > month, and find incredible health benefits from doing so. We have a > > > mind set that more is better if something is " ?good " for you. You don't > > > know for sure how your body is dealing with any excess you are taking of > > > any product or vitamin. Letting your system clear seems to allow your > > > body to make better use of what you are taking when you are taking it, > > > rather than building up an " immunity " to its good/needed effects. > > > after 35 years of taking the same vitamins you may not be getting half > > > of the good from them that you were initially. > > > Joy > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 > You say that after taking vitamins for 35 years, you may not be getting as > much from them as you got when you first started. Of course that's > possible. But it's also possible, that you're much more likely to get very > little from supplements when you " first " use them, because the body may > experience them as a strange and foreign nutrient; Hello all, This is an interesting thread but I notice many words like 'may' and 'possible' creeping into the conversation. The fact is that we don't know for absolute fact what is happening within our bodies Joy said: > 'many people believe that ALL > > products, including food, should be taken a vacation from, whether one > > day a week, one week a month, etc. Allowing our bodies to release > > anything that is building up within us and readjust to their more > > natural state. I absolutely believe this and, in the same way that I emotionally enjoy a day off, I know that my body also enjoys a 'day off'. I don't totally fast but I eat very lightly and stick to fruit and vegetables rather than protein. I drink only water and take no supplements ...my word...I feel so clean, rested and virtuous at the end of the day!!! LOL Nerys My latest books at: www.neryspurchon.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2003 Report Share Posted September 26, 2003 It is, of course, up to each of us to do what we each consider best. But I can certainly say that I do not think it would be at all beneficial to fast from taking vitamin C -- and would go so far as to say that I feel it would be harmful. I am certainly willing to look at websites and read essays which say otherwise, but even taking C only once a day rather than all day long is considered harmful. If you'd like, I can dig up the reference. Alobar - " Sara Joy " <sarajoy Thursday, September 25, 2003 4:40 PM Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > actually, thats now generally how the body works with anything it takes > in. All " active " reactions occur much more strongly first than over > time. Stop for a short time and restart and you again get the strong > effect. there are some things, especially herbal in nature, that you > NEED to take over a period of time to get maximum benefit, not because > the body doesn't react more strongly at first than later, but becasue > they are effecting underlying causes/problems, and those things require > time to unfold/remedy. That is ideally the way i work with all > substances and remedies that I choose. But there is still a large > benefit from taking at least short breaks in anything you are > eating/consuming/using. If you don't do a complete fast for a day or > more each month, than " fast " from one or more specific food/supplement > on various days across the month, so that your body over the month gets > a complete break from anything you are regularly using/ingesting. > Anything my body has to adjust to/accomodate to so stringently that it > takes days/weeks of its use before my body can tolerate it enough to > make use of it - such a thing is probably not something i want to be > utilizing in my body. I do muscle testing on which products I will use > - not just when I first start a new supplement, but each day. My body > often needs breaks of a day or two, get a strong NO on something as > innocuous as vitamin C even, on a particular day. My body has never > wanted to continue on any one supplement nonstop for a whole month. > Never. The only my body wants more of consistently, each day, is pure > filtered water. Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2003 Report Share Posted September 26, 2003 I decided to dig up the references I mentioned in my previous post. Below are a series of short quotes dealing with the negative side effects of " fasting " from vitamin C. URL following each set of quotes leads back to the web page cited for a more in-depth look at the article. At the very end, I give the URL to the Alternative Message board which contains lengthy discussion of vitamin C which includes all the material I cited. I know more about C than most other vitamins & supplements so I talk almost exclusively about C. But I believe that vitamin C is not unique. I feel we need some essentials taken into our body on a daily basis. We can survive short-tern starvation, but that does not mean it is good for us. I just did a bit of research on CoQ-10. I really have no idea how much CoQ-10 the body stores, so I have no idea when fasting from CoQ10 would become harmful. I did read that half-life is 34 hours, so a one day fast probably would not be harmful unless someone was already deficient in CoQ-10. A week fat (which was mentioned earlier in this thread) would seem to me to be quite harmful. I shall put the quotes on CoQ10 first, then the material on vitamin C. ***************************************************** A powerful antioxidant, CoQ-10 helps prevent the cellular damage cased by free radicals in the body. It is manufactured by the liver and is also found in many foods, mostly in meat and seafood. CoQ-10 absorption is generally poor, unless taken with meals rich in lipids (or " fats " ). Otherwise, over 60% of an oral dose can be excreted. It actually takes three weeks of daily dosing to reach maximal concentrations in the body. Peak levels of CoQ-10 after oral administration occur in 5-10 hours, and the half-life is approximately 34 hours. Specifically, congestive heart failure (from a wide variety of causes) has been strongly correlated with significantly low blood and tissue levels of CoQ10. The severity of heart failure correlates with the severity of CoQ10 deficiency. http://www.ourhealthcoop.com/ourhealth_co.htm " As the heart muscle continually uses oxygen and consumes huge amounts of energy, heart muscle cells can greatly benefit from the energy boost of coenzyme Q10, " says Dr. Sinatra. In fact, levels of coQ10 are usually 10 times higher in the healthy heart than in any other organ. This is why a coQ10 deficiency is most likely to primarily affect the heart and contribute to heart failure. It is estimated that 39% of patients with high blood pressure have a coQ10 deficiency. The heart requires a constant supply of coQ10 to meet its energy needs. It is both " extremely vulnerable to nutritional deficiencies " and highly receptive to the benefits of " targeted nutrition, " http://www.alternativemedicine.com/AMHome.asp?cn=Catalog & act=GetProduct & crt=Prod\ uctKey=1339 & style=/AMXSL/ArticleDetail.xsl **************************************************** If this massive draw on the small ascorbate stores of the body is not fully satisfied, the condition of ANASCORBEMIA results. The deficit of ascorbate probably starts in the tissues directly involved in the disease and then spreads to other tissues of the body. A condition of localized and then systemic acute scurvy is produced. This ACUTE INDUCED SCURVY leads to poor healing and ultimately to complications involving other systems of the body. Well-nourished humans usually contain not much more than 5 grams of vitamin C in their bodies. Unfortunately, the majority of people have far less ascorbate than this amount in their bodies and are at risk for many problems related to failure of metabolic processes dependent upon ascorbate. This condition is called CHRONIC SUBCLINICAL SCURVY (12). The phenomenon of symptoms returning repeatedly if the ascorbate is not continued in high doses is most convincing. It is possible to have symptoms come and go many times. In fact, there is often a feeling when titrating to bowel tolerance that symptoms are beginning to return just before taking the next dose. Often a patient will sense that he is probably catching some viral disease and that he is in need of large doses of ascorbic acid. If he is experienced in taking ascorbic acid he may be able to suppress more than 90% of the symptoms. He feels that he should take large amounts of ascorbate, does not feel quite right, and may have peculiar mild symptoms. I call this condition UNSICK. Recognition of this state is important because it can be mistaken for more serious conditions. http://www.doctoryourself.com/titration.html " Rebound scurvy, or the rebound effect, is when a person takes a lot of vitamin C, usually with great success, and then abruptly stops taking it. At that instance, symptoms come back, sometimes including a few classic vitamin C deficiency signs. http://www.doctoryourself.com/vitciv.html If someone is taking large doses of V-C they should not just stop.The body has altered its absorption rate and it takes a while for it to readjust. One should taper off of large doses gradually. Linus Pauling believed in the " rebound scurvy " effect. He said you'd be more susceptible to colds if you skipped even a day (if you took the large doses). http://www.doctoryourself.com/c_roberts.html *************************************************** See here for extensive articles on daily high level doses of vitamin C. http://alternative-medicine-message-boards.info/viewforum.php?f=10 Alobar - " Alobar " <alobar Friday, September 26, 2003 1:35 AM Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > It is, of course, up to each of us to do what we each > consider best. But I can certainly say that I do not think it would > be at all beneficial to fast from taking vitamin C -- and would go so > far as to say that I feel it would be harmful. I am certainly > willing to look at websites and read essays which say otherwise, but > even taking C only once a day rather than all day long is considered > harmful. If you'd like, I can dig up the reference. > > Alobar > > > - > " Sara Joy " <sarajoy > > Thursday, September 25, 2003 4:40 PM > Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and > herbs. > > > > actually, thats now generally how the body works with anything it > takes > > in. All " active " reactions occur much more strongly first than > over > > time. Stop for a short time and restart and you again get the > strong > > effect. there are some things, especially herbal in nature, that > you > > NEED to take over a period of time to get maximum benefit, not > because > > the body doesn't react more strongly at first than later, but > becasue > > they are effecting underlying causes/problems, and those things > require > > time to unfold/remedy. That is ideally the way i work with all > > substances and remedies that I choose. But there is still a large > > benefit from taking at least short breaks in anything you are > > eating/consuming/using. If you don't do a complete fast for a day > or > > more each month, than " fast " from one or more specific > food/supplement > > on various days across the month, so that your body over the month > gets > > a complete break from anything you are regularly using/ingesting. > > Anything my body has to adjust to/accomodate to so stringently that > it > > takes days/weeks of its use before my body can tolerate it enough > to > > make use of it - such a thing is probably not something i want to > be > > utilizing in my body. I do muscle testing on which products I will > use > > - not just when I first start a new supplement, but each day. My > body > > often needs breaks of a day or two, get a strong NO on something as > > innocuous as vitamin C even, on a particular day. My body has > never > > wanted to continue on any one supplement nonstop for a whole month. > > Never. The only my body wants more of consistently, each day, is > pure > > filtered water. Joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2003 Report Share Posted September 26, 2003 I think another significant point is the nature of the supplement which you take. For instance ascorbic acid is not vitamin c. Buffered forms of ascorbic acid such as calcium ascobate are not vitamin c either. Tocopherol is not vitamin E. Kale or an orange is real vitamin c. Cod liver oil is vitamin E. Most of these items people take are fractionated. They're isolated and removed from their whole foods sources. Without that whole foods matrix providing the necessary cofactors and complexes these isolates are near useless. Any necesssary cofactors needed to make that isolate viable is pulled from the body's resources, if available. If not available then we mostly help to contibute making very expensive sewage as products these products simply go in and out. It's all just big business. Over 90% of the vitamin c produced in the US is made by the pharmaceutical company Hoffman-Laroche. They sell it in bulk to all the resellers who label it with different marketing techniques but it's all the same thing. The best way to get your vitamins, with natural cofactors necessary to be biologically active, is our food supply. Organic fresh vegetables, fruits, nuts, grains, legumes, etc contain everything you need. So from that perspective I think its perfectly fine to supplement every single day of your life. If you do feel the need to supplement, the few supplements that work are those that take whole foods and simply remove the water like Garden of Life's " Perfect Food " or " Living Multi " . This process is expensive, but that is real supplementation. Just something to think about... --- John Polifronio <counterpnt wrote: > In fact, I have some confidence that taking > vitamins, minerals, etc., for > long periods, makes good sense, if taken in moderate > doses, and even in > megadoses, " if " you study research on those > supplements. > I've taken ever increasing doses of various > nutrients, after looking at > research aimed at establishing efficacy and safety, > over a period of 35 > years. I've never been able to connect the taking > of nutritional > supplements with a single bad experience. I've been > taking 1 and 1/2 gms of > Niacin daily, in both the plain and flush-free > forms. I've had some scary > flushes, but have been assured by researchers that > though these flushing > experiences can be uncomfortable, they're harmless, > and as the reasearchers > have explained, the flushing tends to decline with > prolonged use (and that > adding high doses of Vit. C and a little aspirin, > helps control the > flushing, if you're taking the plain Niacin). > Consider that millions of people take what I think > are far more dangerous > pharmaceuticals for decades. People take > recreational drugs for decades, > drink booze, smoke cigarettes, drink strong coffee, > constantly take OTCs, > etc., eat junk food constantly, abuse their bodies > in thousands of ways; all > of which tells me that, unless you're taking immense > doses, and not paying > any attention to research on what you're ingesting, > you're pretty safe with > " vitamins. " > JP > > > - > " Ravenna " <ravenna > > Thursday, September 25, 2003 1:12 AM > Re: melatonin > NOW Insomnia and herbs. > > > > > I have heard similar things about not > taking certain herbs > > > all the time. But I never heard it about > vitamins before. Got any > > > web references as to why one should not take > vitamins daily? > > > > Hi Alobar, > > > > No...no web references, just a long lifetime of > experience and years of > study. > > > > In comparison to centuries of herbal use and > knowledge, the study of > vitamins > > and minerals is comparatively new and opinions and > recommendations change > almost > > daily (as the do for dietary requirements). We > cannot know for sure > whether or > > not we are taking more of a substance than our > body has a need for or can > even > > tolerate. I'm sure that you know that many > vitamins such as A and D can be > > overused. > > > > One day a week to rest can give us a 'safety > zone'. That's it. > > > > I'm happy for you that you are contented with your > vitamin regime...after > all, > > we know our own bodies best :-) > > > > Cheers, > > > > Nerys > > My latest books at: > > www.neryspurchon.com > > > > The New with improved product search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2003 Report Share Posted September 26, 2003 In a message dated 9/27/03 12:08:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, counterpnt writes: > Cod liver oil is vitamin E. Cod liver oil contains vitamins A and D, but not vitamin E, according to my bottle's label.... MJH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2003 Report Share Posted September 26, 2003 Your assessment of the value of supplements seems exaggeratedly pessimistic. I agree that nutritional supplements are a poor substitute for natural foods nutrition, but I take a middle position, between the views that supplements are worthless, or that they can provide nearly the same nutritional values as whole foods. I doubt that you could provide research evidence for the notion that vitamins as isolated extracts in pills, tablets, etc., are near useless. In fact there's tons of evidence to the contrary. I take nutritional supplements to provide an " edge " of support where poor food quality, poor dietary habits and circumstances, restaurant eating, and most of all, the disastrous conditions most of us face, living in destructively artificial and stressful circumstance, exposed to toxins and burdens that were absent from the world a couple of hundred years ago. There's another dimension I want to mention: experimentation. I don't mind the money it costs me to experiment with the new supplements that we hear about year to year. Provided there's sound research backing the health promoting claims made for them, I'm happy to try these out. I don't spend money on booze, or cigarettes. I don't go to super-expensive restaurants, I don't spend thousands of dollars on gaudy and trendy clothes or fancy cars, I don't go to gambling casinos, I'm not a film addict, or a drug addict, etc., so why should I worry that I may be wasting some money on vitamin supplements? I operate on the 10% assumption. I assume that I get 10% real value and results from nutritional supplements, and I consider that a bargain. I'd rather get 10% on the dollar for my health, than 90% on the dollar for just about anything else. JP - " Michael " <michaeltel Friday, September 26, 2003 2:52 PM Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > I think another significant point is the nature of the > supplement which you take. For instance ascorbic acid > is not vitamin c. Buffered forms of ascorbic acid > such as calcium ascobate are not vitamin c either. > Tocopherol is not vitamin E. Kale or an orange is > real vitamin c. Cod liver oil is vitamin E. Most of > these items people take are fractionated. They're > isolated and removed from their whole foods sources. > Without that whole foods matrix providing the > necessary cofactors and complexes these isolates are > near useless. Any necesssary cofactors needed to make > that isolate viable is pulled from the body's > resources, if available. If not available then we > mostly help to contibute making very expensive sewage > as products these products simply go in and out. It's > all just big business. Over 90% of the vitamin c > produced in the US is made by the pharmaceutical > company Hoffman-Laroche. They sell it in bulk to all > the resellers who label it with different marketing > techniques but it's all the same thing. > > The best way to get your vitamins, with natural > cofactors necessary to be biologically active, is our > food supply. Organic fresh vegetables, fruits, nuts, > grains, legumes, etc contain everything you need. So > from that perspective I think its perfectly fine to > supplement every single day of your life. If you do > feel the need to supplement, the few supplements that > work are those that take whole foods and simply remove > the water like Garden of Life's " Perfect Food " or > " Living Multi " . This process is expensive, but that > is real supplementation. Just something to think > about... > > --- John Polifronio <counterpnt wrote: > > In fact, I have some confidence that taking > > vitamins, minerals, etc., for > > long periods, makes good sense, if taken in moderate > > doses, and even in > > megadoses, " if " you study research on those > > supplements. > > I've taken ever increasing doses of various > > nutrients, after looking at > > research aimed at establishing efficacy and safety, > > over a period of 35 > > years. I've never been able to connect the taking > > of nutritional > > supplements with a single bad experience. I've been > > taking 1 and 1/2 gms of > > Niacin daily, in both the plain and flush-free > > forms. I've had some scary > > flushes, but have been assured by researchers that > > though these flushing > > experiences can be uncomfortable, they're harmless, > > and as the reasearchers > > have explained, the flushing tends to decline with > > prolonged use (and that > > adding high doses of Vit. C and a little aspirin, > > helps control the > > flushing, if you're taking the plain Niacin). > > Consider that millions of people take what I think > > are far more dangerous > > pharmaceuticals for decades. People take > > recreational drugs for decades, > > drink booze, smoke cigarettes, drink strong coffee, > > constantly take OTCs, > > etc., eat junk food constantly, abuse their bodies > > in thousands of ways; all > > of which tells me that, unless you're taking immense > > doses, and not paying > > any attention to research on what you're ingesting, > > you're pretty safe with > > " vitamins. " > > JP > > > > > > - > > " Ravenna " <ravenna > > > > Thursday, September 25, 2003 1:12 AM > > Re: melatonin > > NOW Insomnia and herbs. > > > > > > > > I have heard similar things about not > > taking certain herbs > > > > all the time. But I never heard it about > > vitamins before. Got any > > > > web references as to why one should not take > > vitamins daily? > > > > > > Hi Alobar, > > > > > > No...no web references, just a long lifetime of > > experience and years of > > study. > > > > > > In comparison to centuries of herbal use and > > knowledge, the study of > > vitamins > > > and minerals is comparatively new and opinions and > > recommendations change > > almost > > > daily (as the do for dietary requirements). We > > cannot know for sure > > whether or > > > not we are taking more of a substance than our > > body has a need for or can > > even > > > tolerate. I'm sure that you know that many > > vitamins such as A and D can be > > > overused. > > > > > > One day a week to rest can give us a 'safety > > zone'. That's it. > > > > > > I'm happy for you that you are contented with your > > vitamin regime...after > > all, > > > we know our own bodies best :-) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Nerys > > > My latest books at: > > > www.neryspurchon.com > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 26, 2003 Report Share Posted September 26, 2003 I would be surprised if Cod Liver Oil did not contain a fair amount of E. A and D are mentioned on the bottle, probably because people are concerned about natural sources of those specific vitamins the cooler months. But the issue is, not whether CLO is a good, natural source of Vit. E, but whether the quantity of E it contains, which will probably not be higher than a few milligrams per serving, can be expected to have the beneficial effects claimed for vastly higher levels of E: i.e. at least 200mg to 2000+ mg daily. jP - <foxhillers Friday, September 26, 2003 9:18 PM Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > In a message dated 9/27/03 12:08:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > counterpnt writes: > > > > Cod liver oil is vitamin E. > > Cod liver oil contains vitamins A and D, but not vitamin E, according to my > bottle's label.... > > MJH > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 Hey John- My comments are interspersed throughout... M --- John Polifronio <counterpnt wrote: > Your assessment of the value of supplements seems > exaggeratedly pessimistic. I really tend to think of myself as a realist. In a totally unrelated digression, I happen to think pessimism is a word created by optimists who don't want to acknowledge the strength of realism. > I agree that nutritional supplements are a poor > substitute for natural foods > nutrition, but I take a middle position, between the > views that supplements > are worthless, or that they can provide nearly the > same nutritional values > as whole foods. > I doubt that you could provide research evidence for > the notion that > vitamins as isolated extracts in pills, tablets, > etc., are near useless. Here's some sourcing: DeCava, Judith-- The Real Truth About Vitamins and Antioxidants 1996 Jensen, Bernard, DC --- Empty Harvest 1990 Frost, Mary--- Going Back to the Basics of Human Health 1997 Bieler, Henry MD--- Finding the Right Cure For You 1998 Lee, Royal--- " What Is a Vitamin? " Applied Trophology Aug 1956) Wiley, Harvey W., MD--- The History of a Crime Against the Pure Food Law Robbins, John--- Reclaiming Our Health 1996 Nelson, Elmer, MD --- Washington Post 26 Oct 49 Somer, Elizabeth--- " Vitamin C: A Lesson in Keeping An Open Mind " The Nutrition Report Lancet. 1842 Dana, Richard--- Two Years Before the Mast, p 444 ff. 1840. Lind, James--- " A Treatise of the Scurvy in Three Parts. Containing an inquiry into the Nature, Causes and Cure of that Disease, together with a Critical and Chronological View of what has been published on the subject. " A. Millar, London, 1753. Woodall, A--- Caution with b-carotene supplements Lancet 347:967, 1996 Heinonen O MD--- The effect of vitamin E and beta carotene on the incidence of lung cancer and other cancers in male smokers " The Alpha Tocopherol Beta Carotene Cancer Prevention Study Group--- NEJM 14 Apr 1994 330;15:1031 Barnett Sure, MD--- Journ Natr 1939 University of Florida report--- " Natural vs. Synthetic " 1981 Randolph, Theron MD--- Human Ecology and Susceptibility to the Chemical Environment 7th ed. 1980 Price, Weston --- Nutrition and Physical Degeneration Keats Publ. 1997 CDC --National Vital Statistics Report Vol. 47, no.19, June 1999. >In fact there's tons of evidence to the contrary. As long as there are humans there will always be evidence to the contrary! But dogma does have that pesky habit of encouraging a person to selectively chose research in an effort to bolster what one already believes to be true. Nevertheless reasonable people will always disagree. This is the reason for exchange of information. Which, by the way, is why I post. So please post your sources. I'd be happy to read the sources which support your reasoning. I'm always willing to adjust my rationale when faced with new insight > I take nutritional supplements to provide an " edge " > of support where poor > food quality, poor dietary habits and circumstances, > restaurant eating, and > most of all, the disastrous conditions most of us > face, living in > destructively artificial and stressful circumstance, > exposed to toxins and > burdens that were absent from the world a couple of > hundred years ago. I agree. > There's another dimension I want to mention: > experimentation. I don't mind > the money it costs me to experiment with the new > supplements that we hear > about year to year. Provided there's sound research > backing the health > promoting claims made for them, I'm happy to try > these out. I don't spend > money on booze, or cigarettes. I don't go to > super-expensive restaurants, I > don't spend thousands of dollars on gaudy and trendy > clothes or fancy cars, > I don't go to gambling casinos, I'm not a film > addict, or a drug addict, > etc., so why should I worry that I may be wasting > some money on vitamin > supplements? You're an ascetic, a relative minimalist. I'm pretty much the same; scary individuals for a consumption-oriented society. But having extra money is not really a good premise for randomly experimenting. The converse of your premise is that if a person doesn't have extra money that person shouldn't supplement. We both know that's not true so, to me, this means money is not the issue. To me, the issue is adding to health rather than detracting through well intentioned missteps. I don't mind experimentation either but there must be a way to determine positive effect. When supplementing experimentally how do you measure effects, both positive and negative? For instance alpha lipoic acid is an excellent liver supplement but if you have heavy metal problems it will chelate that metal, making you feel worse. If you feel worse, without objective data (which is unavaliable with self-experimentation) a person might think themselves " allergic " to ALA. In another instance, say you take ALA and have no metal problems, just wanting to gain the antioxidant effects to be protected against our toxic environment. Fine, but ALA also competes with receptor sites that are responsible for biotin uptake, which negates one's B-vitamin intake. You may have the extra moeny for both but does that mean you should take both? This is the problem with experimentation. It has to be done with great care. > I operate on the 10% assumption. I assume that I > get 10% real value and > results from nutritional supplements, and I consider > that a bargain. I'd > rather get 10% on the dollar for my health, than 90% > on the dollar for just > about anything else. > JP Why? It's best not to assume in this world. Implicit in your assumptions is the heart of an optimist. You want to believe you're attaining some health increases but can you be sure? You live life frugally. This is good. But can you see the irony? You're frugal but you gorge in the area of supplement experimentation when this can unintnetionally be just as unheathly as all the other habits you succesfully avoid. You might consider minimalism across the board as nature has inherently designed the most efficient, synergistic nourishment available. Just something to think about... > - > " Michael " <michaeltel > > Friday, September 26, 2003 2:52 PM > Re: melatonin > NOW Insomnia and herbs. > > > > I think another significant point is the nature of > the > > supplement which you take. For instance ascorbic > acid > > is not vitamin c. Buffered forms of ascorbic acid > > such as calcium ascobate are not vitamin c either. > > Tocopherol is not vitamin E. Kale or an orange is > > real vitamin c. Cod liver oil is vitamin E. Most > of > > these items people take are fractionated. They're > > isolated and removed from their whole foods > sources. > > Without that whole foods matrix providing the > > necessary cofactors and complexes these isolates > are > > near useless. Any necesssary cofactors needed to > make > > that isolate viable is pulled from the body's > > resources, if available. If not available then we > > mostly help to contibute making very expensive > sewage > > as products these products simply go in and out. > It's > > all just big business. Over 90% of the vitamin c > > produced in the US is made by the pharmaceutical > > company Hoffman-Laroche. They sell it in bulk to > all > > the resellers who label it with different > marketing > > techniques but it's all the same thing. > > > > The best way to get your vitamins, with natural > > cofactors necessary to be biologically active, is > our > > food supply. Organic fresh vegetables, fruits, > nuts, > > grains, legumes, etc contain everything you need. > So > > from that perspective I think its perfectly fine > to > > supplement every single day of your life. If you > do > > feel the need to supplement, the few supplements > that > > work are those that take whole foods and simply > remove > > the water like Garden of Life's " Perfect Food " or > > " Living Multi " . This process is expensive, but > that > > is real supplementation. Just something to think > > about... > > The New with improved product search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 Michael, I believe we have had this discussion before. Or maybe someone else brought it up. While I do not agree with your conclusions, it would be nice if you gave extensive quotes to back up your opinions with web URLs where possible so people reading this could make up their own minds based upon quoted texts, research, etc.. Alobar - " Michael " <michaeltel Friday, September 26, 2003 4:52 PM Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > I think another significant point is the nature of the > supplement which you take. For instance ascorbic acid > is not vitamin c. Buffered forms of ascorbic acid > such as calcium ascobate are not vitamin c either. > Tocopherol is not vitamin E. Kale or an orange is > real vitamin c. Cod liver oil is vitamin E. Most of > these items people take are fractionated. They're > isolated and removed from their whole foods sources. > Without that whole foods matrix providing the > necessary cofactors and complexes these isolates are > near useless. Any necesssary cofactors needed to make > that isolate viable is pulled from the body's > resources, if available. If not available then we > mostly help to contibute making very expensive sewage > as products these products simply go in and out. It's > all just big business. Over 90% of the vitamin c > produced in the US is made by the pharmaceutical > company Hoffman-Laroche. They sell it in bulk to all > the resellers who label it with different marketing > techniques but it's all the same thing. > > The best way to get your vitamins, with natural > cofactors necessary to be biologically active, is our > food supply. Organic fresh vegetables, fruits, nuts, > grains, legumes, etc contain everything you need. So > from that perspective I think its perfectly fine to > supplement every single day of your life. If you do > feel the need to supplement, the few supplements that > work are those that take whole foods and simply remove > the water like Garden of Life's " Perfect Food " or > " Living Multi " . This process is expensive, but that > is real supplementation. Just something to think > about... > > --- John Polifronio <counterpnt wrote: > > In fact, I have some confidence that taking > > vitamins, minerals, etc., for > > long periods, makes good sense, if taken in moderate > > doses, and even in > > megadoses, " if " you study research on those > > supplements. > > I've taken ever increasing doses of various > > nutrients, after looking at > > research aimed at establishing efficacy and safety, > > over a period of 35 > > years. I've never been able to connect the taking > > of nutritional > > supplements with a single bad experience. I've been > > taking 1 and 1/2 gms of > > Niacin daily, in both the plain and flush-free > > forms. I've had some scary > > flushes, but have been assured by researchers that > > though these flushing > > experiences can be uncomfortable, they're harmless, > > and as the reasearchers > > have explained, the flushing tends to decline with > > prolonged use (and that > > adding high doses of Vit. C and a little aspirin, > > helps control the > > flushing, if you're taking the plain Niacin). > > Consider that millions of people take what I think > > are far more dangerous > > pharmaceuticals for decades. People take > > recreational drugs for decades, > > drink booze, smoke cigarettes, drink strong coffee, > > constantly take OTCs, > > etc., eat junk food constantly, abuse their bodies > > in thousands of ways; all > > of which tells me that, unless you're taking immense > > doses, and not paying > > any attention to research on what you're ingesting, > > you're pretty safe with > > " vitamins. " > > JP > > > > > > - > > " Ravenna " <ravenna > > > > Thursday, September 25, 2003 1:12 AM > > Re: melatonin > > NOW Insomnia and herbs. > > > > > > > > I have heard similar things about not > > taking certain herbs > > > > all the time. But I never heard it about > > vitamins before. Got any > > > > web references as to why one should not take > > vitamins daily? > > > > > > Hi Alobar, > > > > > > No...no web references, just a long lifetime of > > experience and years of > > study. > > > > > > In comparison to centuries of herbal use and > > knowledge, the study of > > vitamins > > > and minerals is comparatively new and opinions and > > recommendations change > > almost > > > daily (as the do for dietary requirements). We > > cannot know for sure > > whether or > > > not we are taking more of a substance than our > > body has a need for or can > > even > > > tolerate. I'm sure that you know that many > > vitamins such as A and D can be > > > overused. > > > > > > One day a week to rest can give us a 'safety > > zone'. That's it. > > > > > > I'm happy for you that you are contented with your > > vitamin regime...after > > all, > > > we know our own bodies best :-) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Nerys > > > My latest books at: > > > www.neryspurchon.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 --- Alobar <alobar wrote: > Michael, > I believe we have had this discussion > before. Or maybe > someone else brought it up. While I do not agree > with your > conclusions, it would be nice if you gave extensive > quotes to back up > your opinions with web URLs where possible so people > reading this > could make up their own minds based upon quoted > texts, research, > etc.. > > Alobar > Hi Alobar- Sorry about rehashing an old topic. I just recently joined. I just posted some sources a bit earlier so I'll cut and paste for expediency. M DeCava, Judith-- The Real Truth About Vitamins and Antioxidants 1996 Jensen, Bernard, DC --- Empty Harvest 1990 Frost, Mary--- Going Back to the Basics of Human Health 1997 Bieler, Henry MD--- Finding the Right Cure For You 1998 Lee, Royal--- " What Is a Vitamin? " Applied Trophology Aug 1956) Wiley, Harvey W., MD--- The History of a Crime Against the Pure Food Law Robbins, John--- Reclaiming Our Health 1996 Nelson, Elmer, MD --- Washington Post 26 Oct 49 Somer, Elizabeth--- " Vitamin C: A Lesson in Keeping An Open Mind " The Nutrition Report Lancet. 1842 Dana, Richard--- Two Years Before the Mast, p 444 ff. 1840. Lind, James--- " A Treatise of the Scurvy in Three Parts. Containing an inquiry into the Nature, Causes and Cure of that Disease, together with a Critical and Chronological View of what has been published on the subject. " A. Millar, London, 1753. Woodall, A--- Caution with b-carotene supplements Lancet 347:967, 1996 Heinonen O MD--- The effect of vitamin E and beta carotene on the incidence of lung cancer and other cancers in male smokers " The Alpha Tocopherol Beta Carotene Cancer Prevention Study Group--- NEJM 14 Apr 1994 330;15:1031 Barnett Sure, MD--- Journ Natr 1939 University of Florida report--- " Natural vs. Synthetic " 1981 Randolph, Theron MD--- Human Ecology and Susceptibility to the Chemical Environment 7th ed. 1980 Price, Weston --- Nutrition and Physical Degeneration Keats Publ. 1997 CDC --National Vital Statistics Report Vol. 47, no.19, June 1999. > > - > " Michael " <michaeltel > > Friday, September 26, 2003 4:52 PM > Re: melatonin > NOW Insomnia and > herbs. > > > > I think another significant point is the nature of > the > > supplement which you take. For instance ascorbic > acid > > is not vitamin c. Buffered forms of ascorbic acid > > such as calcium ascobate are not vitamin c either. > > Tocopherol is not vitamin E. Kale or an orange is > > real vitamin c. Cod liver oil is vitamin E. Most > of > > these items people take are fractionated. They're > > isolated and removed from their whole foods > sources. > > Without that whole foods matrix providing the > > necessary cofactors and complexes these isolates > are > > near useless. Any necesssary cofactors needed to > make > > that isolate viable is pulled from the body's > > resources, if available. If not available then we > > mostly help to contibute making very expensive > sewage > > as products these products simply go in and out. > It's > > all just big business. Over 90% of the vitamin c > > produced in the US is made by the pharmaceutical > > company Hoffman-Laroche. They sell it in bulk to > all > > the resellers who label it with different > marketing > > techniques but it's all the same thing. > > > > The best way to get your vitamins, with natural > > cofactors necessary to be biologically active, is > our > > food supply. Organic fresh vegetables, fruits, > nuts, > > grains, legumes, etc contain everything you need. > So > > from that perspective I think its perfectly fine > to > > supplement every single day of your life. If you > do > > feel the need to supplement, the few supplements > that > > work are those that take whole foods and simply > remove > > the water like Garden of Life's " Perfect Food " or > > " Living Multi " . This process is expensive, but > that > > is real supplementation. Just something to think > > about... > > > > --- John Polifronio <counterpnt > wrote: > > > In fact, I have some confidence that taking > > > vitamins, minerals, etc., for > > > long periods, makes good sense, if taken in > moderate > > > doses, and even in > > > megadoses, " if " you study research on those > > > supplements. > > > I've taken ever increasing doses of various > > > nutrients, after looking at > > > research aimed at establishing efficacy and > safety, > > > over a period of 35 > > > years. I've never been able to connect the > taking > > > of nutritional > > > supplements with a single bad experience. I've > been > > > taking 1 and 1/2 gms of > > > Niacin daily, in both the plain and flush-free > > > forms. I've had some scary > > > flushes, but have been assured by researchers > that > > > though these flushing > > > experiences can be uncomfortable, they're > harmless, > > > and as the reasearchers > > > have explained, the flushing tends to decline > with > > > prolonged use (and that > > > adding high doses of Vit. C and a little > aspirin, > > > helps control the > > > flushing, if you're taking the plain Niacin). > > > Consider that millions of people take what I > think > > > are far more dangerous > > > pharmaceuticals for decades. People take > > > recreational drugs for decades, > > > drink booze, smoke cigarettes, drink strong > coffee, > > > constantly take OTCs, > > > etc., eat junk food constantly, abuse their > bodies > > > in thousands of ways; all > > > of which tells me that, unless you're taking > immense > > > doses, and not paying > > > any attention to research on what you're > ingesting, > > > you're pretty safe with > > > " vitamins. " > > > JP > > > > > > > > > - > > > " Ravenna " <ravenna > > > > > > Thursday, September 25, 2003 1:12 AM > > > Re: > melatonin > > > NOW Insomnia and herbs. > > > > > > > > > > > I have heard similar things about > not > > > taking certain herbs > > > > > all the time. But I never heard it about > > > vitamins before. Got any > > > > > web references as to why one should not take > > > vitamins daily? > > > > > > > > Hi Alobar, > > > > > > > > No...no web references, just a long lifetime > of > > > experience and years of > > > study. > > > > > > > > In comparison to centuries of herbal use and > > > knowledge, the study of > > > vitamins > > > > and minerals is comparatively new and opinions > and > > > recommendations change > > > almost > > > > daily (as the do for dietary requirements). We > > > cannot know for sure > > > whether or > > > > not we are taking more of a substance than our > > > body has a need for or can > > > even > > > > tolerate. I'm sure that you know that many > > > vitamins such as A and D can be > > > > overused. > > > > > > > > One day a week to rest can give us a 'safety > > > zone'. That's it. > > > > > > > > I'm happy for you that you are contented with > your > > > vitamin regime...after > > > all, > > > > we know our own bodies best :-) > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Nerys > > > > My latest books at: > > > > www.neryspurchon.com > > > > > > The New with improved product search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 Actually, John, I just checked the USDA database at http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl and the only non zero entries under vitamins (for a 1 Tbsp quantity of oil) gives the following: Vitamin A, IU IU 13600.000 Vitamin A, RAE mcg_RAE 4080.000 Retinol mcg 4080.000 Vitamin D IU1 360.000 If I change the quantity to 1 cup of oil, vitamin E still does not show up. So unless the USDA database is screwed up, it looks like there is no apprecable vitamin E in cod liver oil. Alobar - " John Polifronio " <counterpnt Saturday, September 27, 2003 12:39 AM Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > I would be surprised if Cod Liver Oil did not contain a fair amount of E. A > and D are mentioned on the bottle, probably because people are concerned > about natural sources of those specific vitamins the cooler months. > But the issue is, not whether CLO is a good, natural source of Vit. E, but > whether the quantity of E it contains, which will probably not be higher > than a few milligrams per serving, can be expected to have the beneficial > effects claimed for vastly higher levels of E: i.e. at least 200mg to 2000+ > mg daily. > jP > - > <foxhillers > > Friday, September 26, 2003 9:18 PM > Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > > > > In a message dated 9/27/03 12:08:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > counterpnt writes: > > > > > > > Cod liver oil is vitamin E. > > > > Cod liver oil contains vitamins A and D, but not vitamin E, according to > my > > bottle's label.... > > > > MJH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 It doesn't surprise me that much. In fact, Vitamin E is extremely scarce in all foods. Nuts seem to be the best natural source. JP - " Alobar " <alobar Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:48 AM Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > Actually, John, I just checked the USDA database at > http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl and the only non > zero entries under vitamins (for a 1 Tbsp quantity of oil) gives the > following: > > Vitamin A, IU IU 13600.000 > Vitamin A, RAE mcg_RAE 4080.000 > Retinol mcg 4080.000 > Vitamin D IU1 360.000 > > If I change the quantity to 1 cup of oil, vitamin E still > does not show up. So unless the USDA database is screwed up, it > looks like there is no apprecable vitamin E in cod liver oil. > > Alobar > > > > > - > " John Polifronio " <counterpnt > > Saturday, September 27, 2003 12:39 AM > Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and > herbs. > > > > I would be surprised if Cod Liver Oil did not contain a fair amount > of E. A > > and D are mentioned on the bottle, probably because people are > concerned > > about natural sources of those specific vitamins the cooler months. > > But the issue is, not whether CLO is a good, natural source of Vit. > E, but > > whether the quantity of E it contains, which will probably not be > higher > > than a few milligrams per serving, can be expected to have the > beneficial > > effects claimed for vastly higher levels of E: i.e. at least 200mg > to 2000+ > > mg daily. > > jP > > - > > <foxhillers > > > > Friday, September 26, 2003 9:18 PM > > Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia > and herbs. > > > > > > > In a message dated 9/27/03 12:08:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > counterpnt writes: > > > > > > > > > > Cod liver oil is vitamin E. > > > > > > Cod liver oil contains vitamins A and D, but not vitamin E, > according to > > my > > > bottle's label.... > > > > > > MJH > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 In a message dated 9/27/03 1:16:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, foxhillers writes: > > Cod liver oil is vitamin E. > > Cod liver oil contains vitamins A and D, but not vitamin E, according to my > bottle's label.... > > But some cod liver oil gelcaps MAY contain vitamin E added by the maker to act as a preservative...... but not enough to servce as a nutrient source. Somthing's fishy here, n'est pas? mjh MJH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 Well, the use of nutritional supplements is enormously complex and requires care, caution and research. These days, I'm more concerned about the growing threat to the availability of vitamins. There are well organized forces seeking to deny people access to nutri-supplements. JP - " Michael " <michaeltel Friday, September 26, 2003 2:52 PM Re: melatonin NOW Insomnia and herbs. > I think another significant point is the nature of the > supplement which you take. For instance ascorbic acid > is not vitamin c. Buffered forms of ascorbic acid > such as calcium ascobate are not vitamin c either. > Tocopherol is not vitamin E. Kale or an orange is > real vitamin c. Cod liver oil is vitamin E. Most of > these items people take are fractionated. They're > isolated and removed from their whole foods sources. > Without that whole foods matrix providing the > necessary cofactors and complexes these isolates are > near useless. Any necesssary cofactors needed to make > that isolate viable is pulled from the body's > resources, if available. If not available then we > mostly help to contibute making very expensive sewage > as products these products simply go in and out. It's > all just big business. Over 90% of the vitamin c > produced in the US is made by the pharmaceutical > company Hoffman-Laroche. They sell it in bulk to all > the resellers who label it with different marketing > techniques but it's all the same thing. > > The best way to get your vitamins, with natural > cofactors necessary to be biologically active, is our > food supply. Organic fresh vegetables, fruits, nuts, > grains, legumes, etc contain everything you need. So > from that perspective I think its perfectly fine to > supplement every single day of your life. If you do > feel the need to supplement, the few supplements that > work are those that take whole foods and simply remove > the water like Garden of Life's " Perfect Food " or > " Living Multi " . This process is expensive, but that > is real supplementation. Just something to think > about... > > --- John Polifronio <counterpnt wrote: > > In fact, I have some confidence that taking > > vitamins, minerals, etc., for > > long periods, makes good sense, if taken in moderate > > doses, and even in > > megadoses, " if " you study research on those > > supplements. > > I've taken ever increasing doses of various > > nutrients, after looking at > > research aimed at establishing efficacy and safety, > > over a period of 35 > > years. I've never been able to connect the taking > > of nutritional > > supplements with a single bad experience. I've been > > taking 1 and 1/2 gms of > > Niacin daily, in both the plain and flush-free > > forms. I've had some scary > > flushes, but have been assured by researchers that > > though these flushing > > experiences can be uncomfortable, they're harmless, > > and as the reasearchers > > have explained, the flushing tends to decline with > > prolonged use (and that > > adding high doses of Vit. C and a little aspirin, > > helps control the > > flushing, if you're taking the plain Niacin). > > Consider that millions of people take what I think > > are far more dangerous > > pharmaceuticals for decades. People take > > recreational drugs for decades, > > drink booze, smoke cigarettes, drink strong coffee, > > constantly take OTCs, > > etc., eat junk food constantly, abuse their bodies > > in thousands of ways; all > > of which tells me that, unless you're taking immense > > doses, and not paying > > any attention to research on what you're ingesting, > > you're pretty safe with > > " vitamins. " > > JP > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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