Shocking film reignites abortion debate

April 22, 2004

Ben English

London

22apr04

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,9349474%255E663,00

..html

THE bloody reality of abortion was brought into British living rooms last

night in a world TV first that has inflamed emotions and revived old

divisions.

My Foetus, a 60-minute documentary shown at 11pm on Britain's Channel 4,

shows footage of a four-week-old fetus being vacuumed from its mother's

womb.

The documentary also shows images of the dismembered remains of 10, 11 and

21-week fetuses, their broken limbs measured by a tape.

Filmmaker Julia Black, 34, who herself had a late-term abortion when she was

21, said she was moved to make the documentary by her own wanted pregnancy

later in life.

" It's still a subject that is taboo and not discussed openly and I wanted to

kick-start debate by allowing both sides of the argument to actually look at

what an abortion is, " she said.

" Abortion is a legal procedure in Britain and is the world's most common

surgical procedure, so I thought we should look at the images and then carry

on the debate. "

Channel 4 said it was sensitive to concerns the program might shock, but

insisted it was about educating and feeding debate on an issue that has

sparked strong emotions across Europe and the US.

" The point is that abortion is an incredibly common procedure, but we don't

see the images and we should have the debate with the full knowledge of what

is involved, " a spokeswoman said.

" We are not just broadcasting this footage gratuitously.

" A warning will be shown prior to the show and there will be a helpline

after. "

From 1996 to 2000, an average of 170,000 abortions were carried out each

year in England and Wales, according to the British Pregnancy Advisory

Service.

Anti-abortion activists, who have long used graphic imagery of gruesome

abortion procedures as publicity tools, welcomed the film.

But they said its very title implied a pro-choice bias.

" She calls the program My Foetus and if anybody has ever heard of a pregnant

woman talking about her fetus, I'd like to meet them, " said Comment

on Reproductive Ethics director Josephine Qunitavalle.

" There are two categories of human being: wanted and unwanted. The only

difference between Julia's aborted fetus and her baby is whether they were

wanted. "

Ms Black, who is pro-choice, said in making the film she was forced to

confront her own previously entrenched pro-choice views.

" When I interviewed a doctor about the unpleasantness of performing late

abortions it was difficult to listen and not believe it was morally wrong.

" For many people there is no difference between me aborting my fetus at

eight weeks and a woman aborting her fetus at 24 weeks, the legal limit for

abortions in Britain.

" But for me, even after knowing the facts about abortion, there is a

difference. "

Journalist Lauren Booth, a pro-choicer who has also had an abortion, said

she recoiled when watching the film's pivotal moment.

" My hand flew to my mouth in shock, " she said.

" I swallowed. I didn't want to say it, but the word 'murder' came to my

lips. "

SPECIAL OFFER

'Pro-choicers' clap after

partial-birth abortion

Get jaw-dropping audio of narrated video, receive pro-life book FREE

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35123

----------

----

Posted: October 17, 2003

1:00 a.m. Eastern

Attendees of a national conference for abortion providers watched and

listened with rapt attention as the inventor of the partial-birth abortion

procedure narrated a video of the grisly procedure – and then burst into

applause when the act was over and the unborn child destroyed.

The disturbing and eye-opening event, featuring abortion doctor Martin

Haskell addressing members of the National Abortion Federation, was captured

on audiotape.

Calmly and dispassionately describing each step of the process – up to and

including the insertion of the scissors into the base of the baby's head,

followed by the sound of the suction machine sucking out the baby's brain –

Haskell walks his audience through the procedure that opponents hope will

finally be banned during this congressional session.

At the end of the procedure, after the late-term, fully developed unborn

child's life has been violently and painfully terminated, the audience

breaks out into applause.

Now, WorldNetDaily is making available to its readers a CD (or audiotape) of

this shocking abortion-industry insider event.

" For the first time, America will actually hear a child being brutally

killed by this procedure while the abortionist coldly and dispassionately

describes every step of the process, " says Mark Crutcher, founder of Life

Dynamics, the Denton, Texas, pro-life organization that obtained the tape

and has reproduced it. " Now the American people will be confronted with the

reality of abortion. And this time no one will be able to claim that the

pro-life movement is exaggerating. After all, these are the abortion

industry's own words! "

Titled " Fire & Ice, " Side A exposes partial-birth abortion as never before,

culminating with extended excerpts from Haskall's macabre presentation and

the audience's applause at the end of the controversial and brutal abortion.

Side B contains a powerful address given by Dr. Alan Keyes on Independence

Day, 2003. Considered by many to be the most passionate and articulate

pro-life speaker in America, " Keyes speech is guaranteed to light a fire in

the heart of every patriot who still respects the principles upon which this

nation was founded, " said Crutcher. " This needs to be heard in every home

and church in America. "

Special Offer: Those ordering the " Fire & Ice " recording will receive free a

copy of Crutcher's unique book, " Lime 5: Exploited by Choice. "

Crutcher's book is an uncensored look at America's most wrenching social

issue. Crutcher's Life Dynamics brought about the 1999 congressional

hearings on the sale of aborted baby parts as well as the more recent

undercover investigation in which it demonstrated that virtually all Planned

Parenthood affiliates fail to report clear cases of statutory rape to

authorities.

" Lime 5: Exploited by Choice " fully documents that women are being sexually

assaulted, mutilated and killed inside perfectly legal abortion clinics in

numbers that have never before been made public. (Editor's note: This book

includes graphic descriptions of sexual molestation in abortion clinics, and

is not suitable for young readers.)

The book also shows:

how pro-choice organizations have used raw political power to fight off

regulation of their industry;

how a massive cover-up of abortion-industry disasters is being carried out

by an agency of the U.S. government;

how the abortion industry is collapsing because of the toll abortions take

on the people who perform them;

the medical evidence of a connection between the rise in America's abortion

rate and a parallel rise in breast cancer;

the barriers faced by abortion-injured women who seek compensation in the

courts; and

suggestions for solving all of these problems.

The book, which normally sells for $19.95, will be sent FREE to readers who

order the new CD (or audiotape) " Fire and Ice. "

Offer good for U.S.A. only.

April 25, 2004

On 22 Apr 2004 at 21:54, Misty wrote:

> " There are two categories of human being: wanted and unwanted. The

> only difference between Julia's aborted fetus and her baby is whether

> they were wanted. "

Exactly. And, of course, every child should be a wanted

child. The reality is, not all of them are or can be.

Unwanted children are far more likely to grow up poor,

abandoned, neglected and/or abused. They are more likely

to end up on the streets and/or in prison. They are more

likely to end up drug addicted. They are more likely to end

up sick.

And since we do not have a socialist society that cares for

those who canot care for themselves, and since adoption

guarantees absolutely nothing, far better the painful

decision before birth, than the pain and suffering after.

....geminiwalker

April 25, 2004

But still, that painful decision before

birth leads to a painful death for a baby.

I can’t believe people think it is ok for such a horrendous

killing to take place – it is so barbaric. The “choice” needs to be

made before pregnancy occurs, not after.

Carol

geminiwalker

[geminiwalker]

Exactly. And, of course, every child should be a wanted

child. The

reality is, not all of them are or can be.

Unwanted

children are far more likely to grow up poor,

abandoned,

neglected and/or abused. They are more likely

to end up on

the streets and/or in prison. They are more

likely to

end up drug addicted. They are more likely to end

up sick.

And since we

do not have a socialist society that cares for

those who

canot care for themselves, and since adoption

guarantees

absolutely nothing, far better the painful

decision

before birth, than the pain and suffering after.

....geminiwalker

April 25, 2004

I see - so the answer is to abort - murder - all of these babies

(the toll is millions) because in our infinite wisdom we foresee

that they are going to have a horrible life. So better to kill

them - taking that decision into our hands - so as to " save " them

pain later.

That makes a whole lot of sense to me.

My brother was supposed to be aborted. My mother was terminal -

with lymphoma. They told her and my dad that the baby would be

unhealthy - maybe deformed - maybe not even survive. And that she

would surely die - but aborting her baby might lengthen her life by

a few months. I am so grateful - and let me assure you my brother

is - that she made the right decision. She did not abort him. He

was born premature but healthy - is a wonderful, healthy, strong,

man.

I personally know several people who have adopted the " unwanted "

children that our society has claimed would surely have a miserable

life. Would it have been the wiser thing for their mothers to have

aborted them to save them from some " possible " dreaded future?

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of abortions serve

as a form of birth control for women. How would I know this you

might ask? Because I have known many women who've had abortions -

and that is the only reason I have ever been given. " oops " - " I

forgot to take my pill " or " oops - we didn't use a condom it was

inconvenient " . Many women have had more than one abortion for these

reasons. The mentality is that it is so convenient to have an

abortion - it's readily accessible - and our government subsidizes

the cost - so why not?

, " geminiwalker "

<geminiwalker> wrote:

> On 22 Apr 2004 at 21:54, Misty wrote:

>

> > " There are two categories of human being: wanted and unwanted.

The

> > only difference between Julia's aborted fetus and her baby is

whether

> > they were wanted. "

>

> Exactly. And, of course, every child should be a wanted

> child. The reality is, not all of them are or can be.

>

> Unwanted children are far more likely to grow up poor,

> abandoned, neglected and/or abused. They are more likely

> to end up on the streets and/or in prison. They are more

> likely to end up drug addicted. They are more likely to end

> up sick.

>

> And since we do not have a socialist society that cares for

> those who canot care for themselves, and since adoption

> guarantees absolutely nothing, far better the painful

> decision before birth, than the pain and suffering after.

>

> ...geminiwalker

April 26, 2004

On 24 Apr 2004 at 23:04, Carol Minnick wrote:

>

> But still, that painful decision before birth leads to a painful death

> for a baby. I can™t believe people think it is ok for such a

> horrendous killing to take place “ it is so barbaric. The œchoice

> needs to be made before pregnancy occurs, not after.

>

> Carol

>

Pregnancy and labor can also be barbaric. For that matter,

so is war -- so many of our anti-choice fanatics are just fine

about sending those very same babies to die in Iraq once

they get but a handful of years older. Talk about barbaric!

....geminiwalker

April 26, 2004

WOW why does everyone have to make this so complicated! its a baby,not a choice. abortion is murder. there is no sugar coating it! its is killing a human being. God created the baby we do not have the right to "MURDER" it. If this were a perfect world people would not be having sex before marriage like they are not supposed to be doing and this would not even be an issue. imagine that! people not having sex before marriage and hardly any unwanted children! so simple yet everyone makes it so complicated. love Janet

April 26, 2004

I am against abortion, but I don't believe it should be a political issue, nor do I agree with laws against it. That is not the right approach. What is ironic is MOST of the people that want laws against abortion, want the mother to be destitute without any assistance. They don't want her to get foodstamps and welfare- not enough that the baby will have a good life, so I deduce that perhaps those people are too illogical to know what they are talking about. I believe if Mothers got more love and respect and help they would want to keep their babies. We would have a baby boom! I wonder if people' that would intend to limit care for the baby once born yet they don't want it aborted, isn't some kind of self justification for their own petty illogical thinking. I have heard so called christians talk this hate motivated talk, and I wonder would they want to trade places with that mother?

http://www.dennisservaes.com/abortion.html If you want to stop abortion read that.

Guro Dennis Servaes

geminiwalker <geminiwalker wrote:

On 24 Apr 2004 at 23:04, Carol Minnick wrote:> > But still, that painful decision before birth leads to a painful death> for a baby. I can™t believe people think it is ok for such a> horrendous killing to take place “ it is so barbaric. The œchoice> needs to be made before pregnancy occurs, not after.> > Carol> Pregnancy and labor can also be barbaric. For that matter, so is war -- so many of our anti-choice fanatics are just fine about sending those very same babies to die in Iraq once they get but a handful of years older. Talk about barbaric!...geminiwalker«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§ - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! §Subscribe:......... - To :.... - Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses.**COPYRIGHT NOTICE**In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107,any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

April 27, 2004

Two entirely different

subjects. Bottom line – if you don’t

want a baby, don’t do anything to create one.

geminiwalker

[geminiwalker]

Pregnancy and labor can also be

barbaric. For that matter,

so is war --

so many of our anti-choice fanatics are just fine

about

sending those very same babies to die in Iraq once

they get but

a handful of years older. Talk about barbaric!

April 27, 2004

On 26 Apr 2004 at 19:32, Carol Minnick wrote:

>

> Two entirely different subjects. Bottom line “ if you don™t want a

> baby, don™t do anything to create one.

>

How " Christian " of you. What a hypocrite. Killing is killing.

Life is life. Bottom line.

....geminiwalker

April 27, 2004

First of all, geminiwalker, I believe one of the guidelines of this

posting board is that no religion be discussed. So why are you

attacking Christians? And what makes you think that only Christians

oppose abortion or the war in Iraq? Why are you so opposed to

Christians?

Secondly, by your own admission - life has value. And what Carol

is saying is " be responsible " . What is so wrong with that? You

didn't address what I posted - and that is that many, many, many

women have abortions because they are too irresponsible to either

abstain or take preventative measures to not get pregnant in the

first place. When does the baby's life have value? The moment he

or she is born? And is that at nine months or earlier? It never

ceases to amaze me that people think nothing of saving a premature

baby - premature by perhaps months. But the pro-abortionists think

it's perfectly fine to abort a baby at the same stage of

development and earlier, of course.

So,please answer my question, when does a baby become human, when

does his or her life have value? At what stage of development?

, " geminiwalker "

<geminiwalker> wrote:

> On 26 Apr 2004 at 19:32, Carol Minnick wrote:

>

> >

> > Two entirely different subjects. Bottom line " if you don™t want

a

> > baby, don™t do anything to create one.

> >

>

> How " Christian " of you. What a hypocrite. Killing is killing.

> Life is life. Bottom line.

>

> ...geminiwalker

April 27, 2004

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hash: SHA1

fundamentalist opinion alert !!!

On Monday 26 April 2004 6:44 am, lovezGod2 wrote:

> WOW why does everyone have to make this so complicated! its a baby,not a

> choice. abortion is murder. there is no sugar coating it! its is killing a

> human being. God created the baby we do not have the right to " MURDER " it.

> If this were a perfect world people would not be having sex before marriage

> like they are not supposed to be doing and this would not even be an issue.

> imagine that! people not having sex before marriage and hardly any unwanted

> children! so simple yet everyone makes it so complicated. love Janet

- --

Steve - dudescholar

" Knowledge of the world has its roots in those who dare to be different. "

--Joje Reyes

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)

Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQFAjgd8/LrQYe6/TtgRAq99AJ4p+ziymjPAdFAny7ooJmCOzlMPCwCeKKPW

p9Yjbv/+sgZ7pBZD48xe1RE=

=xz1k

-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

April 27, 2004

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Hash: SHA1

On Monday 26 April 2004 9:13 pm, geminiwalker wrote:

> On 26 Apr 2004 at 19:32, Carol Minnick wrote:

> > Two entirely different subjects. Bottom line “ if you don™t want a

> > baby, don™t do anything to create one.

>

> How " Christian " of you. What a hypocrite. Killing is killing.

> Life is life. Bottom line.

>

> ...geminiwalker

Carol, it seems like geminiwalker is saying that if you have a opportunity to

create a baby and you fail to do so, you have killed - bottom line. Weird.

- --

Steve - dudescholar

" Knowledge of the world has its roots in those who dare to be different. "

--Joje Reyes

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)

Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQFAjgf7/LrQYe6/TtgRAqMlAJ90EYFJxEmAhGzpokE5Oq8XDU6m6wCfWzpp

H+VwXvxAFCwm+Vq1bdIgA2Y=

=VXAZ

-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

April 27, 2004

Oh – so you agree – abortion is

killing – killing is killing. Thought so.

And thank you, yes, I am a Christian.

Carol

geminiwalker [geminiwalker]

How

" Christian " of you. What a hypocrite. Killing is killing.

Life is

life. Bottom line.

....geminiwalker

April 27, 2004

Carol

I am so glad to hear that you DO take the pro-life position. Killing regarding by what manner it happens IS wrong.

I too am a Christian and I uphold those values regarding the sacredness of life.

Marion

----

04/27/04 13:13:10

RE: Shocking film reignites abortion debate

Oh – so you agree – abortion is killing – killing is killing. Thought so.

And thank you, yes, I am a Christian.

Carol

geminiwalker [geminiwalker] How "Christian" of you. What a hypocrite. Killing is killing. Life is life. Bottom line....geminiwalker «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§ - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! §Subscribe:......... - To :.... - Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses.**COPYRIGHT NOTICE**In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107,any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

__ IncrediMail - Email has finally evolved - Click HereBuy Quality Inkjet Cartridges & Refill Kits for your Printer at MyInks.com

April 27, 2004

yes but good old tricky mother nature has give us

humans the instinct for eating and for sex and unless

social trends (to kill or not to kill to create or not

to create) have been firmly set in the minds of

children capable of producing eggs and sperm then the

over whelming desire to eat and have sex will be

succumbed to. So I think we are talking social issues

here that often result in strong emotional outbursts

which in it self resolves nothing but causes lots of

fussing and arguing.

if only there was a drug to put into effect a superego

that yields correct social responses to sexual desires

keeping the id at bay.

Any thoughts

--- geminiwalker <geminiwalker wrote:

> On 26 Apr 2004 at 19:32, Carol Minnick wrote:

>

> >

> > Two entirely different subjects. Bottom line “ if

> you don™t want a

> > baby, don™t do anything to create one.

> >

>

> How " Christian " of you. What a hypocrite. Killing is

> killing.

> Life is life. Bottom line.

>

> ...geminiwalker

>

Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at HotJobs

http://hotjobs.sweepstakes./careermakeover

April 28, 2004

its wrong no matter how you try to justify it. sex is supposed to be for married people. morals are shot to hell and you wonder why this is an issue? Janet

April 28, 2004

Hello

Consider a lot of the people that have attacked and killed people at abortion clinics are against abortion, so is murder always really the issue? We all know murder is wrong but our government requires it at times. If we kill a hundred in combat we aren't called murder we become a decorated soldier, but if we kill once in our hometown even in self defense we are arrested for murder and will be on the news which sells like a ticket to funny car races.

The issue with abortion is to save life of the unborn, not 'when is murder murder'. "When is murder murder?" is debatable infinitum.

See clearly the next step. When the threat of the mother to have the baby is removed, can we trust her to make the right choice? This is a yes or no question, and the answer is unfortunately "NO."

The next question is why can't we trust her not to have abortions if there is no law against them.

The answer here is there are no guarantees with or without a law that abortions will not still take place.

What the law accomplishes is force doctors to choose either to do abortions illegally or not to do it, AND black-market abortion clinics will have a new niche which often have inferior facilities that would pose a health threat to the woman.

So what can you do to "FORCE" the mother to have her baby?

Is that really the question you should be asking? I think force is the wrong approach that demands Band- Aids at every issue. Force doesn't work. It is not natural.

Sex feels good and if it didn't feel so good people wouldn't want to do it. You aren't going to change people's minds about that. So where is the incentive for a woman to change her mind about abortion? Hard to do. Hard to do when she is left alone and welfare and food stamps are cut so bad. Who would trade places with her? Who is the victim?

So what are her options? She could put the baby up for adoption; she can get stretched out so that she isn't quite as sexy as she used to be to put the baby up for adoption and still not have security of marriage. That's one, but what's in it for her?

Much of the logic of the woman that has an abortion is moved by emotion much like our emotions that motivate us to want to do something to intercede. It is a closed loop process where emotions dictate the thinking which dictates the emotions that dictate the thoughts infinitum.

That is what you must appeal to, her feelings. She may have been lied to by a jerk and by the time she comes to her senses realizes her problems aren't over. There is a lot to consider besides making new laws. She needs to feel like she is needed to protect the baby who will love her and depend upon her and have dreams of a life that is good.

http://www.dennisservaes.com/abortion.html

dennis

Carol Minnick <carolminnick wrote:

Two entirely different subjects. Bottom line – if you don’t want a baby, don’t do anything to create one.

geminiwalker [geminiwalker] Pregnancy and labor can also be barbaric. For that matter, so is war -- so many of our anti-choice fanatics are just fine about sending those very same babies to die in Iraq once they get but a handful of years older. Talk about barbaric! «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§ - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! §Subscribe:......... - To :.... - Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses.**COPYRIGHT NOTICE**In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107,any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in

receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml

April 28, 2004

A baby becomes a human, when it is born.

It concerns me, that so-called anti-abortionists, have done nothing about

the fact, that around 50,000 children in the world, die daily of starvation.

If they were concerned about children, they'd stop their bickering about

abortion, and would take to the streets to demand that the obscenity of

childhood starvation throughout the world, be stopped.

JP

-

" sandyrupp2002 " <sandyrupp2002

Monday, April 26, 2004 9:38 PM

Re: Shocking film reignites abortion debate