Guest guest Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 *************ATTENTION ALL GROUP MEMBERS******** We have always had a policy of no political discussion in this group, although politics impact health in many ways. In effect, what that really meant was no discussion of politics except as it affects a health issue. A thorough discussion of health has to include some elements of a political nature due to governments regulating so many aspects of our societies which affect health. Regulation of nutritional substances, health care, costs involved, foods, air, water, sunlight, polution, etc. The list goes on and on. It impacts most areas of our lives. Politics should be for the common good, but most of the time what it really means is dollars (or other money) in someone's pockets. It is very hard to view or discuss these issues due to everyones own personal beliefs or economic interests. To further complicate the problem, I think that most people's belief systems are programmed or manipulated by special interest groups or other outside forces much more so than any internal thought processes. Although everyone thinks of himself as an independent free thinker, it is the opposite I believe that is far more true. So, how do we discuss the political aspects that affect us all without it degenerating into a low level, partisan free for all of knee jerk reactions? It could quickly descend to name calling and destructive behaviour. We have already had some of that even though the posts were discarded before they made it to the group. Can these issues be discussed in a rational, intelligent manner? And now, we have the looming specter or war approaching. That is a health issue for many people, even if maybe not you personally. I would like input from all members on these issues. thanks, Frank Gettingwell- / Vitamins, Herbs, Aminos, etc. To , e-mail to: Gettingwell- Or, go to our group site: Gettingwell Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 You ask very interesting questions Frank. Before I speak to your concerns, let me make my stance on certain governmental issues very clear. I am against any legislation or making illegal *any* plant or plant extract -- be that vitamins, laetrile, marijuana, or magic mushrooms. See the US Bill of Rights, articles 1 & 10. I consider myself a strict constitutionalist & a libertarian (with a small l). Now, as to political discussion on this list: I do not go around preaching my views, but do appreciate it when people point out the illegal special interest maneuvers of government (supposedly to " protect " us) which really limit our choices. Be that forced vaccinations, vitamin restrictive legislation, or protection of allopathic privilege. Anytime the government lies to us or tries to control our lives, I get upset. I was quite pleasantly surprised when the Ed Rosenthal case (medical marijuana) was discussed on this list. While I had assumed such discussions would have been off-topic, I am glad they are allowed here. War (whether war with Iraq, or any other) I have strong feelings about. Whether one likes what the government is doing, or not (and I sure do not), I think the manipulation of facts into propaganda by the government to further special interests is much the same sort of manipulation we see with the FDA, the CDC, and various other special interest groups which are certainly valid topics for discussion on this list. I suppose that discussing the US government's ulterior motives & propaganda might get some people upset, but there are probably people who get upset by saying SSRI drugs are grossly over-prescribed and falsely pushed. Now exactly how far you feel the list should open up in this direction is certainly up to you, Frank. I support a full examination of all the dangerous governmental policies, but I could see where others might prefer this list not evolve in that direction. Alobar - " Frank " <califpacific <gettingwell > Friday, February 21, 2003 3:34 PM ATTENTION ALL GROUP MEMBERS > > *************ATTENTION ALL GROUP MEMBERS******** > > We have always had a policy of no political discussion in this group, although politics impact health in many ways. In effect, what that really meant was no discussion of politics except as it affects a health issue. > > A thorough discussion of health has to include some elements of a political nature due to governments regulating so many aspects of our societies which affect health. > > Regulation of nutritional substances, health care, costs involved, foods, air, water, sunlight, polution, etc. The list goes on and on. It impacts most areas of our lives. Politics should be for the common good, but most of the time what it really means is dollars (or other money) in someone's pockets. > > It is very hard to view or discuss these issues due to everyones own personal beliefs or economic interests. To further complicate the problem, I think that most people's belief systems are programmed or manipulated by special interest groups or other outside forces much more so than any internal thought processes. Although everyone thinks of himself as an independent free thinker, it is the opposite I believe that is far more true. > > So, how do we discuss the political aspects that affect us all without it degenerating into a low level, partisan free for all of knee jerk reactions? It could quickly descend to name calling and destructive behaviour. We have already had some of that even though the posts were discarded before they made it to the group. > > Can these issues be discussed in a rational, intelligent manner? > > And now, we have the looming specter or war approaching. That is a health issue for many people, even if maybe not you personally. > > I would like input from all members on these issues. > > thanks, > > Frank > > Gettingwell- / Vitamins, Herbs, Aminos, etc. > > To , e-mail to: Gettingwell- > Or, go to our group site: Gettingwell > > > > > Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Good comments, Alobar, I don't agree with all your positions, but I will refrain from addressing those issues. I concur with the stance that we should discuss issues of health bills, government involvement and citizen action. However, I think it is critically important that we limit these discussions to those topics or ones very similar in nature. While list members may think others should be aware of how the government is twisting data and information, you may in fact be mislead in your firmly held opinions, worst case, or others may just feel strongly that you are incorrect, best case. Either way, we lose a lot of energy and focus on the real issues of health. There are thousands of groups on to discuss political issues, for those that feel a need to discuss them I would encourage you find others of like mind, or if you like to argue, find a widely diverse group. I have seen groups ripped to pieces by religious and political discussions. While you cannot control everything every member posts, guidelines such as this make a lot of sense. Ken - Alobar Gettingwell Friday, February 21, 2003 4:57 PM Re: ATTENTION ALL GROUP MEMBERS You ask very interesting questions Frank. Before I speak to your concerns, let me make my stance on certain governmental issues very clear. I am against any legislation or making illegal *any* plant or plant extract -- be that vitamins, laetrile, marijuana, or magic mushrooms. See the US Bill of Rights, articles 1 & 10. I consider myself a strict constitutionalist & a libertarian (with a small l). Now, as to political discussion on this list: I do not go around preaching my views, but do appreciate it when people point out the illegal special interest maneuvers of government (supposedly to " protect " us) which really limit our choices. Be that forced vaccinations, vitamin restrictive legislation, or protection of allopathic privilege. Anytime the government lies to us or tries to control our lives, I get upset. I was quite pleasantly surprised when the Ed Rosenthal case (medical marijuana) was discussed on this list. While I had assumed such discussions would have been off-topic, I am glad they are allowed here. War (whether war with Iraq, or any other) I have strong feelings about. Whether one likes what the government is doing, or not (and I sure do not), I think the manipulation of facts into propaganda by the government to further special interests is much the same sort of manipulation we see with the FDA, the CDC, and various other special interest groups which are certainly valid topics for discussion on this list. I suppose that discussing the US government's ulterior motives & propaganda might get some people upset, but there are probably people who get upset by saying SSRI drugs are grossly over-prescribed and falsely pushed. Now exactly how far you feel the list should open up in this direction is certainly up to you, Frank. I support a full examination of all the dangerous governmental policies, but I could see where others might prefer this list not evolve in that direction. Alobar - " Frank " <califpacific <gettingwell > Friday, February 21, 2003 3:34 PM ATTENTION ALL GROUP MEMBERS > > *************ATTENTION ALL GROUP MEMBERS******** > > We have always had a policy of no political discussion in this group, although politics impact health in many ways. In effect, what that really meant was no discussion of politics except as it affects a health issue. > > A thorough discussion of health has to include some elements of a political nature due to governments regulating so many aspects of our societies which affect health. > > Regulation of nutritional substances, health care, costs involved, foods, air, water, sunlight, polution, etc. The list goes on and on. It impacts most areas of our lives. Politics should be for the common good, but most of the time what it really means is dollars (or other money) in someone's pockets. > > It is very hard to view or discuss these issues due to everyones own personal beliefs or economic interests. To further complicate the problem, I think that most people's belief systems are programmed or manipulated by special interest groups or other outside forces much more so than any internal thought processes. Although everyone thinks of himself as an independent free thinker, it is the opposite I believe that is far more true. > > So, how do we discuss the political aspects that affect us all without it degenerating into a low level, partisan free for all of knee jerk reactions? It could quickly descend to name calling and destructive behaviour. We have already had some of that even though the posts were discarded before they made it to the group. > > Can these issues be discussed in a rational, intelligent manner? > > And now, we have the looming specter or war approaching. That is a health issue for many people, even if maybe not you personally. > > I would like input from all members on these issues. > > thanks, > > Frank > > > > > > > > > Gettingwell- / Vitamins, Herbs, Aminos, etc. > > To , e-mail to: Gettingwell- > Or, go to our group site: Gettingwell > > > > > Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Frank wrote: > We have always had a policy of no political discussion in this group, although politics impact health in many ways. In effect, what that really meant was no discussion of politics except as it affects a health issue. > So....what's the bottom line. Is it on topic or not to discuss war in Iraq & politics when it comes to non-health-related issues? Mindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 Frank, I think you framed the problem very well in your post and it seems to me that you already have an excellent policy in place: <We have always had a policy of no political discussion in this group, although politics impact health in many ways. In effect, what that really meant was no discussion of politics except as it affects a health issue.> If you wanted to expand on the last part of this ruling, you could perhaps go a little further and explain that such discussion would be limited to: ) pending and in-place govt. legislation that affects our access to health care, health information (mis-information), and health products 2)list members' personal concerns and problems with any possible or in-place legislation 3)suggestions for coping with or getting around perceived problems This is a wonderful list and I'd hate to see it turn into a political battlefield. Claire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 In a message dated 2/23/03 10:10:10 AM US Mountain Standard Time, califpacific writes: > So, everyone, please try and answer with something. > The problem is what you said, Frank - distinguishing my side/your side from the truth. Even when that's been accomplished, the truth will be interpreted differently by each side,and we're off and running again. We need to know the politically motivated actions that affect our health directly, so I'm all for reporting those here. If we discuss them, I hope we can discuss ways to protect ourselves, not whether the decisions, or the decision-makers, are good or bad. Political issues that aren't directly health-related - well, maybe the information could be posted and not discussed. As Wayne said, most of us are pretty good at distinguishing. Political humor is always good. Meg Umans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Dear Group, I posted the previous message below to the group asking for opinions, comments, etc. Out of 900+ members only a very few members responded. By the lack of response, I do not know what to believe. Do you not care what or how politics are discussed here? The majority of you have no opinions? or are apathetic? Are you afraid to voice your true feelings in todays climate? Are you confused by the conflicting issues involved? Are we to ignore all political issues and pretend they don't exist? I would like to ask you all, once again, to give your thoughts on these matters. If we can formulate some guidelines at this point, it might be a good idea. Please send in your thoughts to help with this complex issue. thanks, Frank Gettingwell , Frank <califpacific> wrote: > > *************ATTENTION ALL GROUP MEMBERS******** > > We have always had a policy of no political discussion in this group, although politics impact health in many ways. In effect, what that really meant was no discussion of politics except as it affects a health issue. > > A thorough discussion of health has to include some elements of a political nature due to governments regulating so many aspects of our societies which affect health. > > Regulation of nutritional substances, health care, costs involved, foods, air, water, sunlight, polution, etc. The list goes on and on. It impacts most areas of our lives. Politics should be for the common good, but most of the time what it really means is dollars (or other money) in someone's pockets. > > It is very hard to view or discuss these issues due to everyones own personal beliefs or economic interests. To further complicate the problem, I think that most people's belief systems are programmed or manipulated by special interest groups or other outside forces much more so than any internal thought processes. Although everyone thinks of himself as an independent free thinker, it is the opposite I believe that is far more true. > > So, how do we discuss the political aspects that affect us all without it degenerating into a low level, partisan free for all of knee jerk reactions? It could quickly descend to name calling and destructive behaviour. We have already had some of that even though the posts were discarded before they made it to the group. > > Can these issues be discussed in a rational, intelligent manner? > > And now, we have the looming specter or war approaching. That is a health issue for many people, even if maybe not you personally. > > I would like input from all members on these issues. > > thanks, > > Frank > > Gettingwell- / Vitamins, Herbs, Aminos, etc. > > To , e-mail to: Gettingwell- > Or, go to our group site: Gettingwell > > > > > Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Hello Frank, Sorry not to have replied yet but I have not been around for the last couple of days. I think politics is always a dodgy subject but as you say it does affect health issues.I think we all need to have an open mind to other peoples opinions and respect for their way of thinking. This is difficult especially when it is in direct conflict to your personal thinking or belief systems. I am not opposed to discussing polotics but I would hate to be in a slanging match. Best wishes Chris Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 I think poitical discussion on this group should be only that which pertains to health issues. There are many other groups one can join to discuss general politics. I do think the letter from Christiane Northrup that was forwarded to the list was appropriate because it was discussing ways to deal with stress in the face of such trying times. The response it received was, in my opinion, of a purely political nature and not appropriate. Those are my two cents. Rena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Frank asked [[Do you not care what or how politics are discussed here?]] ** Yes .. to a degree. It depends on the nature of the politics being discussed. [[Are you afraid to voice your true feelings in todays climate?]] ** No. [[Are you confused by the conflicting issues involved?]] ** No. [[Are we to ignore all political issues and pretend they don't exist?]] ** Certainly not. [[i would like to ask you all, once again, to give your thoughts on these matters.]] ** Perhaps a poll would better address these questions. .... Valarie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Frank, Let me speak from experience. Some years ago the FDA tried to restrict our ability to get nutritional supplements. My wife and I were active with Citizens for Health to fight it. We had all sorts of efforts, mail, phone calls, rallies, etc. It was so successful that Senator Moynihan's (NY) office told me that they received more mail and calls on that topic than they did all during the Viet Nam War protest movement! We " contained " the FDA, if even for a little while. The Pharma-Cartel is our problem. They spend big money to influence health legislation, appointments, and policy in these matters. In '76 I was elected president of The International Academy of Preventive Medicine, and I'm familiar with the problems good doctors face. Basic: Our health depends on the choices we make. When these choices are restricted, so is our health. This Group offers a great opportunity to 'make things happen' correctly. Yes. We need to express our opinions on politics as it applies to health. The Pharma-Cartel has the largest lobbyist influence in the US. We need to get even more members into this group, and then we need to express the need for proper, natural, preventive health measures. 900 Activists! This e-mail Group is an opportunity to resist Codex and the pharmaceutical people. What if each member in the Group got one or two more members, And each of them got one or two new members. And we all expressed the " Getting Well " attitude -- what a JOY it could be! Frank, I'm with you. Jerry Mittelman, DDS, FAPM Frank, will you please contact me at my personal email address: jmittelman Thanks - <califpacific Sunday, February 23, 2003 10:44 AM Re: ATTENTION ALL GROUP MEMBERS > Dear Group, > > I posted the previous message below to the group asking for opinions, > comments, etc. > > Out of 900+ members only a very few members responded. > > By the lack of response, I do not know what to believe. > > Do you not care what or how politics are discussed here? > > The majority of you have no opinions? or are apathetic? > > Are you afraid to voice your true feelings in todays climate? > > Are you confused by the conflicting issues involved? > > Are we to ignore all political issues and pretend they don't exist? > > I would like to ask you all, once again, to give your thoughts on > these matters. > > If we can formulate some guidelines at this point, it might be a good > idea. > > Please send in your thoughts to help with this complex issue. > > thanks, > > Frank > > > > Gettingwell , Frank <califpacific> wrote: > > > > *************ATTENTION ALL GROUP MEMBERS******** > > > > We have always had a policy of no political discussion in this > group, although politics impact health in many ways. In effect, what > that really meant was no discussion of politics except as it affects > a health issue. > > > > A thorough discussion of health has to include some elements of a > political nature due to governments regulating so many aspects of our > societies which affect health. > > > > Regulation of nutritional substances, health care, costs involved, > foods, air, water, sunlight, polution, etc. The list goes on and on. > It impacts most areas of our lives. Politics should be for the common > good, but most of the time what it really means is dollars (or other > money) in someone's pockets. > > > > It is very hard to view or discuss these issues due to everyones > own personal beliefs or economic interests. To further complicate the > problem, I think that most people's belief systems are programmed or > manipulated by special interest groups or other outside forces much > more so than any internal thought processes. Although everyone thinks > of himself as an independent free thinker, it is the opposite I > believe that is far more true. > > > > So, how do we discuss the political aspects that affect us all > without it degenerating into a low level, partisan free for all of > knee jerk reactions? It could quickly descend to name calling and > destructive behaviour. We have already had some of that even though > the posts were discarded before they made it to the group. > > > > Can these issues be discussed in a rational, intelligent manner? > > > > And now, we have the looming specter or war approaching. That is a > health issue for many people, even if maybe not you personally. > > > > I would like input from all members on these issues. > > > > thanks, > > > > Frank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gettingwell- / Vitamins, Herbs, Aminos, etc. > > > > To , e-mail to: Gettingwell- > > Or, go to our group site: Gettingwell > > > > > > > > > > Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 I agree troyrena <troyrena wrote:I think poitical discussion on this group should be only that which pertains to health issues. There are many other groups one can join to discuss general politics. I do think the letter from Christiane Northrup that was forwarded to the list was appropriate because it was discussing ways to deal with stress in the face of such trying times. The response it received was, in my opinion, of a purely political nature and not appropriate. Those are my two cents. Rena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 Thanks for the time & consideration you are devoting to this, Frank. You already heard from me, so I won't repeat myself. I have told some friends (not on this list) about this discussion & they are very interested in hearing what sort of responses are generated by your questions, Frank. Alobar - <califpacific Sunday, February 23, 2003 9:44 AM Re: ATTENTION ALL GROUP MEMBERS > Dear Group, > > I posted the previous message below to the group asking for opinions, > comments, etc. > > Out of 900+ members only a very few members responded. > > By the lack of response, I do not know what to believe. > > Do you not care what or how politics are discussed here? > > The majority of you have no opinions? or are apathetic? > > Are you afraid to voice your true feelings in todays climate? > > Are you confused by the conflicting issues involved? > > Are we to ignore all political issues and pretend they don't exist? > > I would like to ask you all, once again, to give your thoughts on > these matters. > > If we can formulate some guidelines at this point, it might be a good > idea. > > Please send in your thoughts to help with this complex issue. > > thanks, > > Frank > > > > Gettingwell , Frank <califpacific> wrote: > > > > *************ATTENTION ALL GROUP MEMBERS******** > > > > We have always had a policy of no political discussion in this > group, although politics impact health in many ways. In effect, what > that really meant was no discussion of politics except as it affects > a health issue. > > > > A thorough discussion of health has to include some elements of a > political nature due to governments regulating so many aspects of our > societies which affect health. > > > > Regulation of nutritional substances, health care, costs involved, > foods, air, water, sunlight, polution, etc. The list goes on and on. > It impacts most areas of our lives. Politics should be for the common > good, but most of the time what it really means is dollars (or other > money) in someone's pockets. > > > > It is very hard to view or discuss these issues due to everyones > own personal beliefs or economic interests. To further complicate the > problem, I think that most people's belief systems are programmed or > manipulated by special interest groups or other outside forces much > more so than any internal thought processes. Although everyone thinks > of himself as an independent free thinker, it is the opposite I > believe that is far more true. > > > > So, how do we discuss the political aspects that affect us all > without it degenerating into a low level, partisan free for all of > knee jerk reactions? It could quickly descend to name calling and > destructive behaviour. We have already had some of that even though > the posts were discarded before they made it to the group. > > > > Can these issues be discussed in a rational, intelligent manner? > > > > And now, we have the looming specter or war approaching. That is a > health issue for many people, even if maybe not you personally. > > > > I would like input from all members on these issues. > > > > thanks, > > > > Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 I have a group and we talk about Politics,Religion,Newage, Health, and other things so I see nothing wrong with it and I have very little trouble with having to boot people off...So lets get it on....MM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2003 Report Share Posted February 23, 2003 I'm new here...and would fall in to caterogy that Valerie listed below. Frank asked [[Do you not care what or how politics are discussed here?]] ** Yes .. to a degree. It depends on the nature of the politics being discussed. [[Are you afraid to voice your true feelings in todays climate?]] ** No. [[Are you confused by the conflicting issues involved?]] ** No. [[Are we to ignore all political issues and pretend they don't exist?]] ** Certainly not. [[i would like to ask you all, once again, to give your thoughts on these matters.]] ** Perhaps a poll would better address these questions. .... Valarie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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