Herbal interactions with drugs

[Guest guest]

What drug is it that targets norepiniphrine? This sounds very interesting.

 

On Thu, 9 May 2002 14:12:17 -0400 Susan Hart <capless wrote:

 

Hi Mar,

 

 

I'm discovering that there a quite a few people on the

herbal list who suffer from depression or other emotional problems.  I

think we are all looking for a more agreeable way of treating it then just

popping pills.....at least that's why I joined.

 

I'm happy to hear you were able to get off the

anti-depressants using alternative therapies. 

I didn't know walnuts contained serotonin....I'm not

sure if serotonin is my problem though.  There are several

neurotransmitters that can go out of wack......I have been on meds and St.

John's Wart which are specific to serotonin and they haven't helped at

all.

The medicine I am now on targets the neurotransmitter

norepinephrine and I will say I do feel 100% better

[Guest guest]

>What drug is it that targets norepiniphrine? This sounds very interesting.

 

The particular drug I take is called desipramine (Norpramin). It is part of a class of drugs called "tricyclics" or TCA's "thought to increase the amount of norepinephrine, serotonin or both in the CNS by blocking their reuptake by the presynaptic neurons."

 

The SSRI's specifically target serotonin reuptake only.

 

Since I've gone through most of the SSRI's without noticing a bit of improvement in my mood state I believe that it is the inhibition of the norepinephine that has caused my improved condition.

 

Interestingly, the supposed benefit, according to the drug companies, in using SSRI's is that they have so few side effects and are so much better tolerated by patients. I, however, experienced significant side-effects such as increased anxiety, sleeplessness, and dizziness with most of them to the point where I could not take the drug.Prozac being the worst by far....

 

Just over a month ago I was so severely depressed that hospitalization was necessary. These drugs are not magic happy pills as they are sometimes portrayed but they have lifted my mood to the point that at least I can see a light at the end of the tunnel. Personally they have been a literal lifesaver for me....but what I'm really searching for is a rope to pull me to shore....I will not find that in a pill bottle.Sue

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

It is best to avoid mental hospitalization and psychiatric drugs altogether,

if there is any way possible to do that. I have found this to be a good

piece of advice in general. This is due to the following facts:

 

Many mental hospitals are simply buildings where gross human rights abuses

have become routine. This includes rape, radical surgery, electric shocks,

and many other forms of torture. Just because it didn't happen to you or

someone you know, does not mean these are safe places. And since many

mental hospitals are run by government agencies, the abuses rarely come to

the public eye. But be assured that they happen in almost every mental

health facility to at least some degree. I have personally assisted in some

investigations into these matters, and incidents are much more pervasive

than we would like to think.

 

Almost all psychiatric drugs do damage to the human body. This can be found

simply by carefully reading the literature that must, by law, accompany

these drugs. If you did not see this literature before the prescription was

written, there was a violation of United States law. In addition to what is

written in the legally required literature, there are some problems that are

not yet acknowledged, such as destruction of the digestive system in many

people who have taken SSRIs.

 

A corrolary to the second fact is that nobody really knows how most

psychiatric drugs actually work. This is especially true of the

phenothiazines and the tricyclic drugs. Just because you were told that

your drug " adjusts " norepiniphrine levels does not mean that is necessarily

true. I did not research the tricyclics as much as i did the SSRIs and a

few other classes. It might be a good idea to check out the papers that are

behind these. Many of them were written between 1981 and 1987. I don't

know exactly what you will find, but the general pattern for most

psychiatric drugs has been that the research showed certain effects on rats,

no humans killed in early trials, and some effects on humans in later

trials. In some cases, particularly regarding Paxil, it has been discovered

that important data on effects has been withheld from the public. The

effects for all classes of psychiatric drugs on humans are generally

unpredictable, primarily because there are important differences between

physical and mental processes of rats and humans -- a fact for which i can

thank God every day.

 

Traditionally, many people with depression have been helped by religion.

All of the world's religions have specific protocols for dealing with this

very common problem. Just because religions in general and several specific

religions have been discredited, mainly by psychiatrists and psychologists,

does not mean that they don't work. In fact, the traditional methods still

do work.

 

Since we don't discuss religion directly on this list, i will answer

specific questions about specific religions, and how they relate to dealing

with the spiritual problem of depression privately. Most of you know my

personal religious committment, but i have studied almost all of the world's

religions at one time or another and can give an impartial assessment when

necessary.

 

As for those who have already used psychiatric drugs and/or been encased in

psychiatric facilities, things are more difficult than they might be

otherwise. But all of us, including me, have made horrible mistakes in the

past. The fact that we are still here on this planet, and able to engage in

some kind of discussion with other humans, means to me that we can improve.

It is best to avoid dwelling on the damage that may have been done, and

instead look at the possibilities in front of us.

 

At 08:37 PM 5/9/02 -0400, you wrote:

>>What drug is it that targets norepiniphrine? This sounds very interesting.

>

>The particular drug I take is called desipramine (Norpramin). It is part

of a class of drugs called " tricyclics " or TCA's " thought to increase the

amount of norepinephrine, serotonin or both in the CNS by blocking their

reuptake by the presynaptic neurons. "

>

>The SSRI's specifically target serotonin reuptake only.

>

>Since I've gone through most of the SSRI's without noticing a bit of

improvement in my mood state I believe that it is the inhibition of the

norepinephine that has caused my improved condition.

>

>Interestingly, the supposed benefit, according to the drug companies, in

using SSRI's is that they have so few side effects and are so much better

tolerated by patients. I, however, experienced significant side-effects

such as increased anxiety, sleeplessness, and dizziness with most of them to

the point where I could not take the drug.

>Prozac being the worst by far....

>

>Just over a month ago I was so severely depressed that hospitalization was

necessary. These drugs are not magic happy pills as they are sometimes

portrayed but they have lifted my mood to the point that at least I can see

a light at the end of the tunnel.

>Personally they have been a literal lifesaver for me....but what I'm really

searching for is a rope to pull me to shore....I will not find that in a

pill bottle.

>Sue

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> The particular drug I take is called desipramine (Norpramin). It is

> part of a class of drugs called " tricyclics " or TCA's " thought to

> increase the amount of norepinephrine, serotonin or both in the CNS

> by blocking their reuptake by the presynaptic neurons. "

 

I'm glad it's working for you, but personally a description like that

would scare me right off a drug. *lol* I'm such a word-fanatic, though.

To me the description of TCA's might as well say " this will alter your

brain chemistry; we're not sure how, but it makes some people feel

better " . I agree with you totally about SSRI's. In my own personal

experience, it took me a while but I eventually figured out that anything

classified as a " MAO inhibitor " will swamp me with side-effects. Funnily

enough, even when I figured this out and told the docs about it, they

still wouldn't recommend anything but strong antidepressant drugs (all

MAO inhibitors, at least back then). When I suggested herbs, I was told

that there was no way something as " weak " as an herbal remedy would

affect depression like mine. (I think they said that because I'm

classified as " early-onset " ; i.e. I started exhibiting symptoms at about

age 11.)

 

> Prozac being the worst by far....

 

Here here. *brrrr*

 

> Just over a month ago I was so severely depressed that

> hospitalization was necessary. These drugs are not magic happy pills

> as they are sometimes portrayed but they have lifted my mood to the

> point that at least I can see a light at the end of the tunnel.

> Personally they have been a literal lifesaver for me....but what I'm

> really searching for is a rope to pull me to shore....I will not find

> that in a pill bottle.

 

My goodness! What an amazing outlook you've developed. It took me my

whole life to learn to think half that clearly about my own problems. If

anything will help you get better, I'm inclined to believe it's your own

view of your situation. It shows that you're not afraid to think about

it or confront it for what it is, and that you realize that the solution,

like the problem, is inside you.

 

" The Obstacle Is The Path " -- Zen saying that just so happens to fit

very nicely with the subject of depression. Take care, Sara T.

 

When you have nothing better to do, visit Bored.com at http://www.bored.com

[Guest guest]

Wow. To some extent i don't know what to say. It seems like in real time (or

what some would call " meatspace " ) i don't get a chance to have deep

conversations with people very often. We all live so fast, even in pokey old

Cheyenne, that there just isn't time to get together with people and do

something meaningful. I look at my schedule for the next few days, and it's

insane. Working at the school all day, which starts out in Biology dissecting

fetal pigs. Then i do a charity performance this evening at a hotel. VERY

early tomorrow we drive about 150 miles to a tiny town in Colorado where there's

a Celtic festival, for four performances. Then on Monday i do a bit of labor

work for a friend in the Big City in hopes of keeping our family fed.

 

Music is part of healing. And doing these performances is important, even if

it's just spreading the word a little further. But often i wonder how i could

get in to help people like your dying friend. I know that music would do some

good for her and her family. What i long for, is that harpists like myself

would be called in as a matter of course in situations like that. I'd probably

make a 150 mile drive like that just for the hope of doing a bit of good for

someone with brain cancer, which should be especially susceptible to musical

healing. But, more than that, what i want is for there to be thousands, maybe

millions, of musicians who have the training, ability, and knowledge to do this,

and for people to be using us every day all over the world to improve mental and

physical health.

 

The great tragedy of my life is that we are all so busy now, that i can't even

usually get to do that kind of work, even for free. Modern medicine can be

good. But we need a few other elements in order to solve some of these

incredibly difficult problems that keep coming up.

 

Thanks for reading my rants. I do appreciate all the caring people here.

 

On Thu, 09 May 2002 22:58:18 -0700 Janene Brierley-Green <janenebg

wrote:

 

Michael,

 

I just

wanted to say that I look forward to your input into the discussions on this

list - however odd it may seem to me at the time.  I look forward to your

posts as they make me think.

 

Your

hints as to your current position and how you have dealt with things gives me

inspiration (as well as " Zip

The Dragonmaster " ).

 

I am the one who's best friend is in palliative care now - dying

of brain cancer.

 

It

devastates me that I do not know enough to help her and that " modern " medicine

can not or will not help her.  She is 38 years old with two kids 7 and 9

and a husband that adores her, but all of us are caught up in the current way

that that society treats illness.

 

I do

not know enough and cannot penetrate the trust that they have in modern

medicine.  It breaks my heart to think that perhaps something could have

been done for her.

 

Anyway, I am loving her the best I can in the time she has left, but it

is so hard to see her like this, my loving beautiful friend, reduced to this

state by Cancer.

 

But...

I wanted to say how much of an inspiration and learning experience this group

is.

 

Thanks

- Janene

[Guest guest]

>To me the description of TCA's might as well say "this will alter yourbrain chemistry;

 

Yeah! LOL! You're right....but ANYTHING you put into your body has the potential to alter your brain chemistry. Neurotransmitters depend on raw materials for their syntheses... nutrients, namely, amino acids, vitamins, minerals, etc... obtained from the diet....or if necessary supplements. It only makes sense (to me) that if I want good quality neurotransmitters (and brain function) I have to watch very carefully what I include in my diet and the supplements I take.

 

>we're not sure how, but it makes some people feel "better".

 

That's really it in a nutshell! And that's the part that slaps me in the face....yeah I do feel 100% better on the med regime....BUT the TCA class that work well on me have been on the market for over 20++ years yet when I look them up in any 2002 reference source their method of action is STILL: UNKNOWN....then comes a brief description of how they APPEAR to work.

 

>I agree with you totally about SSRI's. In my own personalexperience, it took me a while but I eventually figured out that anything classified as a "MAO inhibitor" will swamp me with side-effects.

 

An SSRI and a MAO inhibitor are 2 VERY different classes of antidepressants.

SSRI's are what you could call the new kids on the block...they include Prozac, Celexa, Paxil, Zoloft, & Luvox---Interestingly, I believe that Prozac is the only one that's patent has expired. Now ANY drug company can make and sell (inexpensive) generic prozac.

As the patent expired Eli Lilly introduced a new form of this drug called "Prozac Weekly"....exclusively patented under Lilly (EXPENSIVE!) What a coincidence!?! I'm happy to say that this particular ploy is turning out to be a dismal flop!

 

MAO Inhibitors.....(Nardil, Parnate, Marplan, etc...)

These drugs were introduced in the early 1950's to "treat" Schizophrenia (hallucinations, delusions, loss of contact with reality.

I don't know when they crossed over into the antidepressant category......

If reading my description of TCA's frightens you look up one of these babies!

Even though their patents have long expired.....no drug company has picked them for sale as generics, their greed is one thing but law suits are another....

 

>no way something as "weak" as an herbal remedy wouldaffect depression like mine

 

LOL! I got that answer too!

 

>What an amazing outlook you've developed

Humm....well I've had years to think about it! My decision to stay on antidepressants for now is simply based on the fact that I BELIEVE they put me in a position where I have the mental energy to explore the other modalities out there.

 

This ends my reply to Sara...

The rest I send as an exercise in futility.

 

I read all the posts to this list but I naturally have more interest in the ones that pertaining to my situation. I've found some that have been kind, tolerant, and helpful, and I thank you.

 

There is always a "but" and here's mine...............

 

There have been those that I have found to be rather fanatical. While I personally find most extremists to be small thinkers with such a sub-atomic narrowness of viewpoint that once they latch on to something (or it latches on to them) it becomes nearly the sole focus of their lives. To support only an extremist viewpoint requires no actual on-going thought process. How did you find it soooo easy to parachute free-will out of your lives? Giving up the need question, to contemplate, to entertain no thought that doesn't conform is taking the easy way out. To deliberately allow yourselves to be encased in such a puny place with only the illusion of knowledge is inconceivable to me. You can't be sure of anything if you give up the ability to snatch of the blinders and take a hard objective look around. The give away is habit of stating the obvious as if it were something profound. You don't need to be bothered with even a simple sense of respect......dare I say tolerance of other's opinions if you live in an echo chamber. Thinking so banal is loathsome.

 

Consider:

It is the mark of an intelligent mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

Aristotle

SH

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Very good article Michael, and spot on. Very spot on!

Love,

Doc

 

Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington

 

-

Michael Riversong

herbal remedies

Thursday, May 09, 2002 10:12 PM

Re: Re: [herbal remedies] Re: Herbal interactions with drugs

It is best to avoid mental hospitalization and psychiatric drugs altogether,if there is any way possible to do that. I have found this to be a goodpiece of advice in general. This is due to the following facts:Many mental hospitals are simply buildings where gross human rights abuseshave become routine. This includes rape, radical surgery, electric shocks,and many other forms of torture. Just because it didn't happen to you orsomeone you know, does not mean these are safe places. And since manymental hospitals are run by government agencies, the abuses rarely come tothe public eye. But be assured that they happen in almost every mentalhealth facility to at least some degree. I have personally assisted in someinvestigations into these matters, and incidents are much more pervasivethan we would like to think.Almost all psychiatric drugs do damage to the human body. This can be foundsimply by carefully reading the literature that must, by law, accompanythese drugs. If you did not see this literature before the prescription waswritten, there was a violation of United States law. In addition to what iswritten in the legally required literature, there are some problems that arenot yet acknowledged, such as destruction of the digestive system in manypeople who have taken SSRIs.A corrolary to the second fact is that nobody really knows how mostpsychiatric drugs actually work. This is especially true of thephenothiazines and the tricyclic drugs. Just because you were told thatyour drug "adjusts" norepiniphrine levels does not mean that is necessarilytrue. I did not research the tricyclics as much as i did the SSRIs and afew other classes. It might be a good idea to check out the papers that arebehind these. Many of them were written between 1981 and 1987. I don'tknow exactly what you will find, but the general pattern for mostpsychiatric drugs has been that the research showed certain effects on rats,no humans killed in early trials, and some effects on humans in latertrials. In some cases, particularly regarding Paxil, it has been discoveredthat important data on effects has been withheld from the public. Theeffects for all classes of psychiatric drugs on humans are generallyunpredictable, primarily because there are important differences betweenphysical and mental processes of rats and humans -- a fact for which i canthank God every day.Traditionally, many people with depression have been helped by religion.All of the world's religions have specific protocols for dealing with thisvery common problem. Just because religions in general and several specificreligions have been discredited, mainly by psychiatrists and psychologists,does not mean that they don't work. In fact, the traditional methods stilldo work.Since we don't discuss religion directly on this list, i will answerspecific questions about specific religions, and how they relate to dealingwith the spiritual problem of depression privately. Most of you know mypersonal religious committment, but i have studied almost all of the world'sreligions at one time or another and can give an impartial assessment whennecessary.As for those who have already used psychiatric drugs and/or been encased inpsychiatric facilities, things are more difficult than they might beotherwise. But all of us, including me, have made horrible mistakes in thepast. The fact that we are still here on this planet, and able to engage insome kind of discussion with other humans, means to me that we can improve.It is best to avoid dwelling on the damage that may have been done, andinstead look at the possibilities in front of us.