Herbal interactions with drugs

[Guest guest]

I very seldom post or even get a chance to read other posts so I

don't know if this has been covered or not. If so, I apologize for

bringing it up again.

 

Where can I find information about herbal interactions with

pharmacutical drugs and with other herbs?

 

I found a couple websites, but they really don't explain the

indications on why you should or shouldn't use.

 

Thanks,

 

Thomas Hinds

[Guest guest]

>Where can I find information about herbal interactions with pharmaceutical drugs and with other herbs?

Hi,

I'm new to the group.

I became interested in herbs after being diagnosed with depression and anxiety disorder. I'm on anti-depressants at present but I'd like to see if there is an herbal approach I could try instead OR as an adjunct to conventional meds.

I have tried St. John's Wort....but it's effect was similar to Prozac.....way to stimulating, BAD anxiety problems. My doc isn't into non-traditional therapies....so no help there.

Does anyone have any suggestions or reference resources that may be of help?

 

I'd also be very interested in your responses to Thomas's question about pharm. drugs and herb interactions.

 

Thanks,

Sue H

[Guest guest]

There's lots of stuff out there; try this to start:

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0789471507/customer-r\

eviews/103-7533235-3513447

 

'Luck!

 

-ST

 

On Thu, 02 May 2002 21:01:36 -0000 " thomashinds " wrote:

 

> I very seldom post or even get a chance to read other posts so I

> don't know if this has been covered or not. If so, I apologize for

> bringing it up again.

>

> Where can I find information about herbal interactions with

> pharmacutical drugs and with other herbs?

>

> I found a couple websites, but they really don't explain the

> indications on why you should or shouldn't use.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Thomas Hinds

>

>

>

> Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following:

> 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire.

> 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any

> natural remedy.

> 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician

> and to

> prescribe for your own health.

> We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as

> long as

> they behave themselves.

> Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any

> person

> following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk.

> It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products

> from list members, you are agreeing to

> be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and

> members free of any liability.

>

> Dr. Ian Shillington

> Doctor of Naturopathy

> Dr.IanShillington

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Sue and welcome! I have depression problems too; was on Prozac for a

while but kicked the habit eventually. Currently cold-turkeying it

(well, not really; I'm married to a medium-strength antidepressant) until

I can find a more viable solution. If I have a single suggestion in the

whole world for you, it's to tell your doc that *his* idea of traditional

medicine is less than a hundred years old, while what he so glibly thinks

of as " non-traditional " is the cumulative knowledge of tens of thousands

of years. Then tell him that if he isn't willing to listen to your

opinion on your own health, then he can't have your dollar, and walk

right outta there. I tell you to do this wacky thing partially for your

own health and well-being; but also partially for everybody else's.

Those of us who *know* that the doctors we're dealing with aren't

treating patients the way they ought to be treated--with the open-minded,

overall-health-conscious, emotionally-sensitive kind of treatment that

Hippocrates preached over and over again--are in my opinion obligated,

for the safety of others, to withdraw our money from those doctors.

(Now, if you live in the Arctic and he's the only doctor for miles or

something, ignore me!) It may sound like an unpleasant encounter, but

every time I do it I feel a little better about myself and society in

general. It makes you think, " Yeah. You can't profit off *me* by

treating people like that! "

 

As to your other questions, that's what this list is for and they're

excellent at it. I'm sure they can help you. Take care, --Sara Thustra

 

On Thu, 2 May 2002 17:48:16 -0400 " Susan Hart " wrote:

 

> >Where can I find information about herbal interactions with

> pharmaceutical drugs and with other herbs?

>

> Hi,

> I'm new to the group.

> I became interested in herbs after being diagnosed with depression

> and anxiety disorder. I'm on anti-depressants at present but I'd

> like to see if there is an herbal approach I could try instead OR as

> an adjunct to conventional meds.

> I have tried St. John's Wort....but it's effect was similar to

> Prozac.....way to stimulating, BAD anxiety problems. My doc isn't

> into non-traditional therapies....so no help there.

> Does anyone have any suggestions or reference resources that may be

> of help?

>

> I'd also be very interested in your responses to Thomas's question

> about pharm. drugs and herb interactions.

>

> Thanks,

> Sue H

 

When you have nothing better to do, visit Bored.com at http://www.bored.com

[Guest guest]

>tell your doc that *his* idea of traditional medicine is less than a hundred years old, while what he so glibly thinks of as "non->traditional" is the cumulative knowledge of tens of thousands of years

 

 

Hi Sara Thustra, (I like that!)

Thanks for the welcome and the advice!

I've been on the soapmaking lists @ for a few years now and never thought to seek out a group w/this focus! Duh!

 

When I approached my doc with the idea of using herbs, vitamins & other "non-traditional" treatments I was really depressed and in the hospital for "med adjustment".

I had just started to think there had to be a better way of controlling this disease than w/traditional modes of treatment, i.e. meds and therapy.

Meds can only take you so far IF they work at all and you can stand the side effects........not to mention the incredible cost! I've tried various types of psycho-therapy and never found one that was really effective......my depression seems to come from the inside (biochemical?) as opposed to a stressful situation.

I've been doing my own research online and have come across a few interesting approaches.

I have an appt. with the doc on the 6th and plan to go prepared with a printouts of what I think might compliment med therapy....with the intention of eventually weaning myself off pharmaceuticals altogether.

Now that I'm feeling better I think I can talk to him more clearly and hopefully he'll be more receptive. If not there are other doc's. There's only one homeopathic practitioner in the area but he isn't taking on any new patients......

Thanks again for the advice!

 

Sue

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hey Sue: First of all, a big fat YAY! to you for even having the courage

to approach an allopath and suggest that they think outside their

box--most people don't want to poke that tiger with a thirty foot flaming

pole, and I don't really blame them. You've got a lot of courage.

 

I was 'diagnosed' (if you can call giving a kid a scantron and taking a

guess 'diagnosis') when I was thirteen with early-onset 'abnormal'

depression (I must have got a question wrong on the test! *lol*), but in

the years since then that I've spent dealing with, studying and talking

about depression, I've come to the not-so-subtle conclusion that all

those subdiagnoses are DOO. AFAICT (As Far As I Can Tell--watch out

because I use " As Far As I Know " too), depression is simply Misery. Does

it have a chemical component? Well, DUH, so does happiness and arousal

and laughter and fatigue; are those " illnesses " too?

 

Of course I see nothing wrong with treating people who are struggling

with depression as people who need (if they want it) help; but I strongly

object to all this treating them like they're sick, as if their brains

are malfunctioning or their feelings can't be trusted, because they/we

have a " chemical imbalance " . I mean, let's be clear about their

definitions here: If I'm happy, I'm " well adjusted " , meaning my

chemicals are " in balance " according to the lingo. If I experience

despair, hopelessness, nagging doubt or persistent sadness, then I am

" unbalanced " and therefore " sick " . The fact that doctors--doctors!--have

the gall to use this little semantic dance as an excuse to push

drugs--and pretty dangerous ones at that; I was on Prozac for a while and

*whew*--and all sorts of other, conveniently-expensive remedies on

struggling people who need help makes me SO hopping mad! I know my

opinion isn't widely held and it does offend some people, but no doctor

will ever convince me that a mood-altering drug is anything but the

*last* thing a depressed person needs. A depressed person needs help

finding an answer to their problems, and that means looking at their life

(diet, habits, etc.) and discovering what they can change to help their

mood. Popping a pill that does it for you is *not* an answer; it's just

a crutch, as I'm sure you discovered just like I did.

 

Don't get me wrong--I have a very strong sympathy for people with actual

mental illnesses, who need confinement and/or drugs and therapy to get

well, or to function if they can't get well. My little brother is

currently struggling with a psychotic episode that may turn out to be

schizophrenia--meaning he may never get better--so believe me, I'm not

dissing the sick. But I think all us " depressives " were handed some

seriously funny money when we were convinced that we, too, were " mentally

ill " and needed to be in a doctor's care or on stabilizing drugs. I

mean, I'm only 24 and I can remember when that whole idea became such a

big fad, so it's not like it's time-tested, objective material, is it? *lol*

 

Was my depression bad? Oh gods yes; I spent almost two years being

suicidal about once a week. I had hallucinations, delusions, fits, the

whole nine--it was a nightmare, for a long time. But what was causing

it? Was it really the fact that I was born with my brain out of whack?

(No, it wasn't--they even told me that much) So if I wasn't born that

way, then what knocked my brain out of whack, and what was keeping it out

of whack? And more importantly, why did sixteen therapists never once

try to figure out if there was something *causing* my problem and help me

fix it? Could it be that every time I ran to them and cried about my

problems they earned a hundred bucks for a half hours' work? Could it be

the cool $200 a month, plus kickbacks from the drug companies, that they

were getting for putting me on Prozac?

 

Well, screw them. Literally with that mindset, I eventually fixed it on

my own -- I changed my thinking. I started noticing what thoughts would

bubble into my head when I was " getting depressed " , and I started making

an active effort to avoid indulging in those thoughts, and to avoid

things that seemed to cause me to think that way. Big f@$#ing shock, it

worked. I'm not " cured " like Prozac cured me, in that it isn't

impossible that I'll have another episode. (Wait...I'm not depressed but

it's possible for me to *get* depressed...does that make me...*normal*??

*rotfl*) Anyway, as many people on this list already know, I've been

struggling a bit lately due to the stress and sadness surrounding my

brother's situation. (Stress doesn't 'cause' my depression either, but

it can sure help dunk me into it.) But overall, I've made amazing

progress this way, just by trying to watch myself and see what things

about my life exacerbate my tendency to be Miserable.

 

*whew* Man, this topic can get me goin'. I hope there was something in

here that helped you -- Take care!

 

Sara T.

 

On Fri, 3 May 2002 12:56:00 -0400 " Susan Hart " wrote:

 

> >tell your doc that *his* idea of traditional medicine is less than a

> hundred years old, while what he so glibly thinks of as

> " non->traditional " is the cumulative knowledge of tens of thousands

> of years

>

> Hi Sara Thustra, (I like that!)

> Thanks for the welcome and the advice!

> I've been on the soapmaking lists @ for a few years now

> and never thought to seek out a group w/this focus! Duh!

>

> When I approached my doc with the idea of using herbs, vitamins &

> other " non-traditional " treatments I was really depressed and in the

> hospital for " med adjustment " .

> I had just started to think there had to be a better way of

> controlling this disease than w/traditional modes of treatment, i.e.

> meds and therapy.

> Meds can only take you so far IF they work at all and you can stand

> the side effects........not to mention the incredible cost! I've

> tried various types of psycho-therapy and never found one that was

> really effective......my depression seems to come from the inside

> (biochemical?) as opposed to a stressful situation.

> I've been doing my own research online and have come across a few

> interesting approaches.

> I have an appt. with the doc on the 6th and plan to go prepared with

> a printouts of what I think might compliment med therapy....with the

> intention of eventually weaning myself off pharmaceuticals altogether.

> Now that I'm feeling better I think I can talk to him more clearly

> and hopefully he'll be more receptive. If not there are other doc's.

> There's only one homeopathic practitioner in the area but he isn't

> taking on any new patients......

> Thanks again for the advice!

>

> Sue

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

When you have nothing better to do, visit Bored.com at http://www.bored.com

[Guest guest]

<I see nothing wrong with treating people who are strugglingwith depression as people who need (if they want it) help; but I strongly object to all this treating them like they're sick, as if their brainsare malfunctioning or their feelings can't be trusted, because they/wehave a "chemical imbalance".

 

Hi Sara,

I think that the term "depression" is over used by everyone including the medical community.

 

Depression IS many things but it is not a "bad day" or a case of "the blues". I'm not "down in the "dumps" or "gloomy". These represent "normal" emotions that all of us experience at one time or another.

Clinical depression is light-years away from such feelings. For me it is as if every thought and emotion is overwhelmingly dark and negative.........I can't find a word that adequately expresses such absolute agony of mind. These feelings are so intense that I feel almost mentally paralyzed. And the scary part for me is that it comes on so subtly by the time I realize what's happening I'm back-sliding and already in it's grip. There has never been a trigger or event that induces it. I feel that I've worked with enough therapists through the years to know that my depression comes from within (endogenous) rather than from without (exogenous) such as stress or a traumatic event, etc....

 

I do put quite a lot of stock in the "chemical imbalance" explanation in my case anyway. It just makes sense to me. Our brains are incredibly resilient and at the same time incredibly fragile organs. The problem as I see it is that research hasn't gotten to the point of developing any test to confirm a diagnosis of clinical depression. I'd love to be able to have a scan or a blood test.....any test that would objectively diagnose "depression" as easily as diabetes. If the pancreas (an organ just like the brain is) starts to

have problems with insulin (as the brain does with it's neurotransmitters) symptoms will arise for the diabetic person.....just as symptoms will arise for the depressed person. This seems to be where my analogy diverges........

 

The person with suspected diabetes will see a doctor and have several tests done to confirm the diagnosis and treatment will start from there.

The person with suspected depression will also see a doctor but there are no objective tests offered. There are none in common practice. The doctor will try to diagnose based on the subjective data the person offers and the doc's interpretation of it...subjective again.

So treatment starts not based on reliable tests but on the doctor's education and level of experience. Most people will have to try several drugs or combinations of drugs before it is known whether the treatment will be effective. And it takes several weeks on each drug before it is known whether it will work or not or if the individual will tolerate the side effects. Weeks and months of taking the various drugs and praying this will be the ONE all the while so depressed that I can't even leave the house. I saw the meds as life-preservers. I needed them to keep my head above water trying not to drown (suicide). It's difficult to think of other ways to deal with your illness when all your remaining energy is focused on just staying alive.

 

 

I believe the social stigma society (and even ourselves) place on depression influences how we act and take care of ourselves. In my early 20's I believed that if I just took my medication faithfully and attended the recommended therapy I would be fine and never have to worry about depression again! Wrong. Another bout follows a few years later........."But I did everything the doctor said!" This scenario went on for over 20 years!

But, this time I'm not trying to forget about my illness.....instead I'm trying to do MORE than the doctor says. I'm on a med regime that has me almost back to my old self so I have the energy to devote to learning about my illness and ALL the treatments available to me. I'm exploring all avenues.....herbs, vitamins, diet changes, meditation, and things I haven't even found yet. What works I'll incorporate into my life and what doesn't will be discarded. Hopefully I will find a way to leave the pharmaceuticals behind and live life without any of those sort of crutches.

 

Sara I'm interested in your viewpoint and would like to discuss things further with you but I think we may be going a bit OT for the rest of the members. If you'd like to contact me off-list I'd love to hear from you. I have found when people have similar issues but slightly different viewpoints putting thoughts down so that the other person can understand them really helps clarify some of my internal confusion.

Sue

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dont go offlist with your discussion. I have too that depression that

do that all thoughts in my head seems so dark and overwhelming.

 

In my case I dont have diagnosed clinical depression (well, I havent

asked my doctor if he have wrote that). But I have tried anti-

depressiva. It gave me a " holiday " from those bad thoughts. I would

have been on it still if it wasnt that I read something about side

effects after many years of use. So I got off it using colour light

therapy and eating walnuts (which have much of serotonin in it). 12

walnuts each evening helped me alot Soak it or eat it together

with enzymes (because walnutes do have something which inhibits

enzymes). I use a papaya seed together with the walnuts.

 

My depression is caused by mobbing at school (I am almost deaf - and

the other kids decided from 2. year to push me out of all the social

stuff normal for kids). I was alone all time from that second year at

school to the 7th year. Moved to another school 8th year, and met a

class friend in my new class who turned to be my best friend with

time.

 

This, together with some shocking experiences in youth, do that I

always feel other people always will hurt me and I do often hate

people when Im outside the house. I can feel well when I am about to

take the bus to city. But at once I sit there in the bus I start to

hate people in the bus, in the city and so on.....dark thoughts, yeah.

 

I dont know what to do with those thoughts. I will try a new therapy

they call Thought Field Therapy. I hope it will work on me, because

alot of people with anxiety and other problems have got help of it.

 

I am sure its not only me and you 2 who have depression on this list.

So.....

 

Hugs from Mar

 

herbal remedies, " Susan Hart " <capless@e...> wrote:

> <I see nothing wrong with treating people who are struggling

> with depression as people who need (if they want it) help; but I

strongly

> object to all this treating them like they're sick, as if their

brains

> are malfunctioning or their feelings can't be trusted, because

they/we

> have a " chemical imbalance " .

>

> Hi Sara,

> I think that the term " depression " is over used by everyone

including the medical community.

>

> Depression IS many things but it is not a " bad day " or a case

of " the blues " . I'm not " down in the " dumps " or " gloomy " . These

represent " normal " emotions that all of us experience at one time or

another.

> Clinical depression is light-years away from such feelings. For me

it is as if every thought and emotion is overwhelmingly dark and

negative.........I can't find a word that adequately expresses such

absolute agony of mind. These feelings are so intense that I feel

almost mentally paralyzed. And the scary part for me is that it

comes on so subtly by the time I realize what's happening I'm back-

sliding and already in it's grip. There has never been a trigger or

event that induces it. I feel that I've worked with enough

therapists through the years to know that my depression comes from

within (endogenous) rather than from without (exogenous) such as

stress or a traumatic event, etc....

>

> I do put quite a lot of stock in the " chemical imbalance "

explanation in my case anyway. It just makes sense to me. Our

brains are incredibly resilient and at the same time incredibly

fragile organs. The problem as I see it is that research hasn't

gotten to the point of developing any test to confirm a diagnosis of

clinical depression. I'd love to be able to have a scan or a blood

test.....any test that would objectively diagnose " depression " as

easily as diabetes. If the pancreas (an organ just like the brain

is) starts to

> have problems with insulin (as the brain does with it's

neurotransmitters) symptoms will arise for the diabetic

person.....just as symptoms will arise for the depressed person.

This seems to be where my analogy diverges........

>

> The person with suspected diabetes will see a doctor and have

several tests done to confirm the diagnosis and treatment will start

from there.

> The person with suspected depression will also see a doctor but

there are no objective tests offered. There are none in common

practice. The doctor will try to diagnose based on the subjective

data the person offers and the doc's interpretation of

it...subjective again.

> So treatment starts not based on reliable tests but on the doctor's

education and level of experience. Most people will have to try

several drugs or combinations of drugs before it is known whether the

treatment will be effective. And it takes several weeks on each drug

before it is known whether it will work or not or if the individual

will tolerate the side effects. Weeks and months of taking the

various drugs and praying this will be the ONE all the while so

depressed that I can't even leave the house. I saw the meds as life-

preservers. I needed them to keep my head above water trying not to

drown (suicide). It's difficult to think of other ways to deal with

your illness when all your remaining energy is focused on just

staying alive.

>

> I believe the social stigma society (and even ourselves) place on

depression influences how we act and take care of ourselves. In my

early 20's I believed that if I just took my medication faithfully

and attended the recommended therapy I would be fine and never have

to worry about depression again! Wrong. Another bout follows a few

years later......... " But I did everything the doctor said! " This

scenario went on for over 20 years!

> But, this time I'm not trying to forget about my

illness.....instead I'm trying to do MORE than the doctor says. I'm

on a med regime that has me almost back to my old self so I have the

energy to devote to learning about my illness and ALL the treatments

available to me. I'm exploring all avenues.....herbs, vitamins, diet

changes, meditation, and things I haven't even found yet. What works

I'll incorporate into my life and what doesn't will be discarded.

Hopefully I will find a way to leave the pharmaceuticals behind and

live life without any of those sort of crutches.

>

> Sara I'm interested in your viewpoint and would like to discuss

things further with you but I think we may be going a bit OT for the

rest of the members. If you'd like to contact me off-list I'd love

to hear from you. I have found when people have similar issues but

slightly different viewpoints putting thoughts down so that the other

person can understand them really helps clarify some of my internal

confusion.

> Sue

[Guest guest]

This is because the interactions between drugs and herbs have never been

adequately studied. You have to know a lot about medicine just to make good

guesses!

 

Doctors get bombarded with way too much information to be able to sort

through what they get on normal channels. And herbalists like myself don't

necessarily have very good medical training, so we don't always get the real

skinny either.

 

Keep in mind that almost all medical research is currently funded by

pharmaceutical companies, or by government agencies which are heavily

lobbied by pharmaceutical companies. They can afford to send

representatives to every government office that has anything to do with

approving medical research grants. From what i've been told by former

government officials, these guys get in everywhere. And nobody in the

pharmaceutical companies wants to know anything about herbal medicines

unless they can be patented somehow and thus create another revenue stream.

 

I have found a few useful research reports coming from various countries,

including Spain, Netherlands, India, and China. These countries have a

unique combination of being off the beaten path of pharmaceutical company

reps, and enough technology to accomplish good research. So you might try

medical school sites in those countries. I got the reports through a

one-way research list devoted exclusively to CFS and Fibromyalgia, which is

a personal interest. But i can't really save all the info, so i'm not going

to be a whole lot of help at this time unless someone can fund several hours

of research time.

 

Herbal interactions with other herbs were well covered in the old Jeanne

Rose book, " Herbs and Things " . It was published in the 1970s, and so is a

bit hard to find. But it is well worth the effort.

 

At 09:01 PM 5/2/02 -0000, you wrote:

>I very seldom post or even get a chance to read other posts so I

>don't know if this has been covered or not. If so, I apologize for

>bringing it up again.

>

>Where can I find information about herbal interactions with

>pharmacutical drugs and with other herbs?

>

>I found a couple websites, but they really don't explain the

>indications on why you should or shouldn't use.

>

>Thanks,

>

>Thomas Hinds

>

[Guest guest]

I really wish you could take a few policemen with you when you visit that

doctor, and get him arrested for health fraud. That's what is really needed

in a case like this. By putting you on potentially deadly antidepressants,

he has already proven his incompetence and criminal intentions. From what

you've said so far, nothing indicates that this doctor has the least bit of

human concern for you or your health. At the very least, you should not

waste any more time with this (unprintable expletive).

 

I'm sorry to seem so negative here, but the facts are out there. Many of

them came out last year in a trial right here in my home town, where the

manufacturer of Paxil was completely exposed as a criminal enterprise. Too

bad the American press was too chicken to report on this extensively -- i

got some of the key information from foreign sources, about something that

happened in walking distance from my house!

 

At 12:56 PM 5/3/02 -0400, you wrote:

>>tell your doc that *his* idea of traditional medicine is less than a

hundred years old, while what he so glibly thinks of as " non->traditional "

is the cumulative knowledge of tens of thousands of years

>

>Hi Sara Thustra, (I like that!)

>Thanks for the welcome and the advice!

>I've been on the soapmaking lists @ for a few years now and

never thought to seek out a group w/this focus! Duh!

>

>When I approached my doc with the idea of using herbs, vitamins & other

" non-traditional " treatments I was really depressed and in the hospital for

" med adjustment " .

>I had just started to think there had to be a better way of controlling

this disease than w/traditional modes of treatment, i.e. meds and therapy.

>Meds can only take you so far IF they work at all and you can stand the

side effects........not to mention the incredible cost! I've tried various

types of psycho-therapy and never found one that was really

effective......my depression seems to come from the inside (biochemical?) as

opposed to a stressful situation.

>I've been doing my own research online and have come across a few

interesting approaches.

>I have an appt. with the doc on the 6th and plan to go prepared with a

printouts of what I think might compliment med therapy....with the intention

of eventually weaning myself off pharmaceuticals altogether.

>Now that I'm feeling better I think I can talk to him more clearly and

hopefully he'll be more receptive. If not there are other doc's. There's

only one homeopathic practitioner in the area but he isn't taking on any new

patients......

>Thanks again for the advice!

>

>Sue

>

[Guest guest]

My favorite health food store is awesome. They have a computer

there that customers can use that's touch-sensitive on the screen.

You can look up an illness and it pops up and tells you what herbs

to use. You can look up the herbs, and it pops up and tells you all

about them plus about drug interactions/contraindications. Maybe

you have a HFS near you that has such a thing?

 

Melinda

[Guest guest]

Michael,

Do you know where I could get some more detailed information on the trial

you mentioned below? I'd be interested in reading about it.

 

Thanks,

Ann

 

--- Michael Riversong <rivedu wrote:

> I really wish you could take a few policemen with you when you visit that

> doctor, and get him arrested for health fraud. That's what is really

> needed

> in a case like this. By putting you on potentially deadly

> antidepressants,

> he has already proven his incompetence and criminal intentions. From

> what

> you've said so far, nothing indicates that this doctor has the least bit

> of

> human concern for you or your health. At the very least, you should not

> waste any more time with this (unprintable expletive).

>

> I'm sorry to seem so negative here, but the facts are out there. Many of

> them came out last year in a trial right here in my home town, where the

> manufacturer of Paxil was completely exposed as a criminal enterprise.

> Too

> bad the American press was too chicken to report on this extensively -- i

> got some of the key information from foreign sources, about something

> that

> happened in walking distance from my house!

>

> At 12:56 PM 5/3/02 -0400, you wrote:

> >>tell your doc that *his* idea of traditional medicine is less than a

> hundred years old, while what he so glibly thinks of as

> " non->traditional "

> is the cumulative knowledge of tens of thousands of years

> >

> >Hi Sara Thustra, (I like that!)

> >Thanks for the welcome and the advice!

> >I've been on the soapmaking lists @ for a few years now and

> never thought to seek out a group w/this focus! Duh!

> >

> >When I approached my doc with the idea of using herbs, vitamins & other

> " non-traditional " treatments I was really depressed and in the hospital

> for

> " med adjustment " .

> >I had just started to think there had to be a better way of controlling

> this disease than w/traditional modes of treatment, i.e. meds and

> therapy.

> >Meds can only take you so far IF they work at all and you can stand the

> side effects........not to mention the incredible cost! I've tried

> various

> types of psycho-therapy and never found one that was really

> effective......my depression seems to come from the inside (biochemical?)

> as

> opposed to a stressful situation.

> >I've been doing my own research online and have come across a few

> interesting approaches.

> >I have an appt. with the doc on the 6th and plan to go prepared with a

> printouts of what I think might compliment med therapy....with the

> intention

> of eventually weaning myself off pharmaceuticals altogether.

> >Now that I'm feeling better I think I can talk to him more clearly and

> hopefully he'll be more receptive. If not there are other doc's.

> There's

> only one homeopathic practitioner in the area but he isn't taking on any

> new

> patients......

> >Thanks again for the advice!

> >

> >Sue

> >

>

>

>

> Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following:

> 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire.

> 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural

> remedy.

> 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and

> to

> prescribe for your own health.

> We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long

> as

> they behave themselves.

> Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any

> person

> following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk.

> It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products

> from list members, you are agreeing to

> be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and

> members free of any liability.

>

> Dr. Ian Shillington

> Doctor of Naturopathy

> Dr.IanShillington

>

>

[Guest guest]

That's going to take some research now. One good place to start would be a

fuzzy search that has the terms Paxil + Cheyenne. The trial verdict was

rendered in, i think, early May last year, so the trail is cold. I got the

information on certain parts of the situation that were not covered in the

local or general American press, from the Guardian web site. That's a

liberal newspaper in London, and i keep their site bookmarked because their

viewpoint is always interesting. I have no idea how far back they keep

archives on the Web.

 

Briefly, one of the things that came out at the trial, which was a focus of

the Guardian article, was that the manufacturer had actually given the drug

to some of their employees at one stage of product development. Several

adverse reactions occurred. The information on this was subsequently hidden

from government regulators and doctors on both sides of the Atlantic.

 

The trial itself stemmed from a fellow in Gillette who took some Paxil from

a doctor's sample, and within three days went out and shot several members

of his family. The trial was moved to Cheyenne to get a less biased jury,

since Gillette is a small city and many people knew this fellow.

 

This kind of thing has happened occasionally with all the SSRI drugs, which

include Prozac, Luvox, Deseryl, Celexa, and Zoloft in addition to Paxil.

(There are also several other names for some of these drugs, which makes the

situation a bit more confusing.) Generally, the most dangerous times on

these drugs are in the first three weeks, and for about three weeks after

discontinuance. It is at these times that the reported adverse reactions

have occurred, which in many cases include extremely uncharacteristic

violent acts.

 

Hope that information helps you.

 

At 11:22 AM 5/6/02 -0700, you wrote:

>Michael,

>Do you know where I could get some more detailed information on the trial

>you mentioned below? I'd be interested in reading about it.

>

>Thanks,

>Ann

>

[Guest guest]

> At 8:57 PM -0700 5/6/02, Michael Riversong wrote:

>

> Briefly, one of the things that came out at the trial, which was a focus of

> the Guardian article, was that the manufacturer had actually given the drug

> to some of their employees at one stage of product development. Several

> adverse reactions occurred. The information on this was subsequently hidden

> from government regulators and doctors on both sides of the Atlantic.

>

> The trial itself stemmed from a fellow in Gillette who took some Paxil from

> a doctor's sample, and within three days went out and shot several members

> of his family. The trial was moved to Cheyenne to get a less biased jury,

> since Gillette is a small city and many people knew this fellow.

>

> This kind of thing has happened occasionally with all the SSRI drugs, which

> include Prozac, Luvox, Deseryl, Celexa, and Zoloft in addition to Paxil.

 

If we could only get the people in the FDA to take these regularly, we could

get rid of most of the problems we have in the world (too many government

bureaucrats!)

 

Zip

 

The Dragonmaster

Heaven on Earth

 

dragonmasterzip

 

He who rules truly serves and she who serves truly rules.

[Guest guest]

Hi Mar,

 

>I have too that depression that do that all thoughts in my head seems so dark and overwhelming.

I'm discovering that there a quite a few people on the herbal list who suffer from depression or other emotional problems. I think we are all looking for a more agreeable way of treating it then just popping pills.....at least that's why I joined.

 

I'm happy to hear you were able to get off the anti-depressants using alternative therapies.

I didn't know walnuts contained serotonin....I'm not sure if serotonin is my problem though. There are several neurotransmitters that can go out of wack......I have been on meds and St. John's Wart which are specific to serotonin and they haven't helped at all.

The medicine I am now on targets the neurotransmitter norepinephrine and I will say I do feel 100% better. I don't want to be on meds my whole life....but I think of the quality of life issues. Like should I allow myself to stop my meds and seek other remedies and hope I don't "crash"? To tell you the truth I'd rather take my chances with meds than live with constant depression. Because that is not living to me! But if there is an alternative method I'd love to find it!

 

I can see how the experiences you have endured could make you feel bitter and hateful towards people. Carrying around that weight in your heart will certainly lead to "dark thoughts".

I too have had experiences that have left me feeling bitter, but I've come to the conclusion that I have to work at letting go of all that negativity. I feel that I have to get beyond that if I want myself to heal. I'm trying to be more aware of my thoughts and when I catch myself thinking hateful stuff I do something called "thought stopping". It's just a process of being more aware of what my thoughts are and when I catch a really neg. one go by I FORCE myself to STOP! You can picture a stop sign in your mind or actually say STOP! If you are in public do it internally if your at home you can yell it right out.

I don't think any meds, herbs, diets, alt therapies etc...will be of much use in the long run if we keep poisoning ourselves with this toxic waste rumbling around in our heads.

 

I also have anxiety and would like to know more about Thought Field Therapy.

Can you let me know what it is?

 

Sue

 

[Guest guest]

Hello again Sue :-)

 

Well, to say it short: Thought Field Therapy is a system where they

use the chinese medicine meridians - they use the acupuncture points.

First you and the therapeut find out what problems to work with, then

you think of it and he/she is tapping on a specific acupuncture point

relating to your specific problem. The feeling of

fear/anxiety/depression or whatever will decrease, and when you're

done with it, you will have no feeling to the event you was thinking

about. Later if you get the same problem back, you know where to tap,

so you can work with it yourself...

 

I hope I did explain it well enough. It started with one who worked

with a lady who had a very bad anxiety for water. By an coincidence

he tapped on an acupuncture point just when she was thinking about

her fear of water. Suddenly she stood up and went to the swimming

pool outside his clinic and she said: " Im not afraid the water

anymore " . He didnt understand a thing, so he had to research this

with acupuncture points, tapping on them while the person is thinking

of their problem and so on.

 

I do believe that this therapy will work on some of my problems. And

I will be happy to get rid of them, whatever problems it will be

which dissappear :-) I have many kinds of fear, thats why I need to

get rid of some of it. And IF I get rid of my sorrow from my

childhood and school, that would be the greatest release!!!

 

I start with this therapy short after May 20, and I will write to

this list what happens....

 

Hugs from me :-)

 

Mar

 

>

> I also have anxiety and would like to know more about Thought Field

Therapy.

> Can you let me know what it is?

>

> Sue

[Guest guest]

Hey Mar: Very interesting stuff here. I wish you the best; I think

the idea is a sound one, and if used correctly there's no reason in the

world it shouldn't work. I might consider recommending something like

this to my brother, who has a very severe phobia of ambulances and

hospitals (he will have a panic attack just from hearing an ambulance

siren) which traditional psychiatry hasn't been able to do a thing for.

Actually, if this was executed properly and really worked, I could think

of a million situations that would probably benefit from it. I look

forward to hearing your assessment,

 

Sara

 

On Sat, 11 May 2002 20:22:58 -0000 " walkyria9 " wrote:

 

> Hello again Sue :-)

>

> Well, to say it short: Thought Field Therapy is a system where they

> use the chinese medicine meridians - they use the acupuncture points.

> First you and the therapeut find out what problems to work with, then

> you think of it and he/she is tapping on a specific acupuncture point

> relating to your specific problem. The feeling of

> fear/anxiety/depression or whatever will decrease, and when you're

> done with it, you will have no feeling to the event you was thinking

> about. Later if you get the same problem back, you know where to tap,

> so you can work with it yourself...

>

> I hope I did explain it well enough. It started with one who worked

> with a lady who had a very bad anxiety for water. By an coincidence

> he tapped on an acupuncture point just when she was thinking about

> her fear of water. Suddenly she stood up and went to the swimming

> pool outside his clinic and she said: " Im not afraid the water

> anymore " . He didnt understand a thing, so he had to research this

> with acupuncture points, tapping on them while the person is thinking

> of their problem and so on.

>

> I do believe that this therapy will work on some of my problems. And

> I will be happy to get rid of them, whatever problems it will be

> which dissappear :-) I have many kinds of fear, thats why I need to

> get rid of some of it. And IF I get rid of my sorrow from my

> childhood and school, that would be the greatest release!!!

>

> I start with this therapy short after May 20, and I will write to

> this list what happens....

>

> Hugs from me :-)

>

> Mar

>

> >

> > I also have anxiety and would like to know more about Thought Field

> Therapy.

> > Can you let me know what it is?

> >

> > Sue

>

>

>

> Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following:

> 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire.

> 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any

> natural remedy.

> 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician

> and to

> prescribe for your own health.

> We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as

> long as

> they behave themselves.

> Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any

> person

> following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk.

> It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products

> from list members, you are agreeing to

> be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and

> members free of any liability.

>

> Dr. Ian Shillington

> Doctor of Naturopathy

> Dr.IanShillington

>

>