poison oak and ivy

[Guest guest]

There was an older gentleman my Mom knew who swore by Madrone oil. Madrone is a tree that grows in Oregon. He said it worked quickly and completely. Patty

[Guest guest]

Doc, or anybody, do you have a good treatment for

severe reactions to poison ivy or oak? I know a fine

14 year old youngster who suffers from this to an

almost unbelievable extent. He seems to get it from

nowhere and has spent the last 3 weeks in bed from

it!! He is depressed as this is the worst ever. His

eyes were swollen shut for 4 days. He actually seems

to get it out of the air as they can't figure where it

is coming from. They have moved several times, but to

no avail. This has impacted his life severely. Jewel

weed does nothing for him, at least the way they have

used it. Any help, anybody? pj

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Someone is probably burning wood with poison ivy on it, I had a friend almost die from inhaling smoke from woodstove and burning logs. Btw if she had not got medical treatment her throat would have closed up and choked her (her whole face was swollen) she did not have time to try different remedies but she does take Rhus Tox now if she thinks she is exposed to it.

Anne

 

 

Doc, or anybody, do you have a good treatment forsevere reactions to poison ivy or oak? I know a fine14 year old youngster who suffers from this to analmost unbelievable extent.

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi was just wondering what food sources are rich in L-Glutamine?

 

Thanks,

Fahad

[Guest guest]

I'm allergic to poison ivy and oak myself- I've tried a number of things and

haven't been satisfied with the Chinese herbal approach. I haven't tried

the formulas that were just posted- I may next time.

 

I'm a rock climber, so I'm out near it fairly often.

 

I have noticed that it feels like I'm getting a wind-heat attack right

before the rash shows up. So I take some yin qiao san before I even know

I've gotten a reaction... but that's not going to get the pathogen away from

the skin.

 

Tecnu is like soap for oak and ivy- it actually binds to the oils and pulls

them off- you know how soap is hydrophilic- and binds to both oils and

water? Same idea. It's best to use all over your body if you suspect

you've gotten into some- and you can keep using it throughout the weeping

stage to pull the oils out of the sores and keep them from spreading. The

worst thing about this allergic reaction is that the weeping can move the

oils to new parts of the skin and keep spreading... so tecnu's the only

answer for those seriously affected like me. I am willing to try those herb

formulas, but I would be surprised if any of them bind to the plant oils the

way tecnu does.

 

It's not toxic.

 

The first time that happened to me here in California with poison oak (I

missed the forests of Ohio and thought

I'd just roll around and through the bushes of a San Diego canyon), I ended

up in the ER, surrounded by medical students and interns privileged to

witness what the attending called " the most advanced case he'd seen. " That

was after nearly a week of being isolated at home, feeling like a leper,

while the sores weeped... they gave me a prednisone taper, which worked

wonders.

 

I know all the downsides of steroids, but when you're this allergic, it's

the only humane solution. You can

take an herbal formula of gan cao, zhi mu, and shu di to moderate the side

effects of prednisone. But given the problems with steroids, the best

solution is to avoid the oak and ivy in the first place at all costs. When

someone is so allergic they don't even have to touch it, I would tell them

to consider moving somewhere where it doesn't exist.

 

I think they should destroy all the poison oak on the planet, but I guess

it's the only refuge of a certain species of bird. I don't like most birds

too much either, but I'll let it go. ;-)

 

All the best,

B

 

 

 

Brian Benjamin Carter, M.Sci., L.Ac.

http://www.pulsemed.org/briancarterbio.htm

Acupuncturist & Herbalist

Editor, The Pulse of Oriental Medicine

Columnist, Acupuncture Today

(619) 208-1432 San Diego

(866) 206-9069 x 5284 Tollfree Voicemail

 

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[Guest guest]

I know all the downsides of steroids, but when you're this allergic, it'sthe only humane solution.

>>>>Steroids are actually not that bed if taken short term. Its long term use that is horrible

Alon

[Guest guest]

Brian Carter wrote:

I endedup in the ER, surrounded by medical students and interns privileged towitness what the attending called "the most advanced case he'd seen." Thatwas after nearly a week of being isolated at home, feeling like a leper,while the sores weeped... they gave me a prednisone taper, which workedwonders.I know all the downsides of steroids, but when you're this allergic, it'sthe only humane solution.

 

Brian,

 

Your experience is also mine. I've been to the ER at UC San Francisco. I used to be profoundly allergic to poison oak until I got some advice from Dr. Kang in 1989. I've only had it very mildly a couple of times since. Since Dr. Kang is a dermatology specialist, I asked him what his formula was for poison oak. I also presented him with a several pustules between my fingers near the dorsum of the hand. His answer was simple. He didn't use any medicine. He said the cure was simpler than putting together some expensive and time consuming salve. He said as Cara has said to wash it thoroughly with detergent. The key then is to dry it thoroughly and keep it absolutely dry. He said also to absolutely resist the temptation to touch it at all. I stood there staring at him with the itchiness mounting on my hand. In the years leading up to that moment I had gotten prednisone once every summer for a full body bout of poison oak. I thought of pleading my case again to him with a renewed sense of desperation, but on gut level I had a sense he was right. He stated the case with such calm finality, I sensed he was quite clear about it. Since I had already washed that hand thoroughly, the only part of the treatment left to me was to keep the hand dry and not to touch it. In 24 hours the pustules had dried up and were reduced in size. After another 24 hours they were gone. I got a little bit of poison oak the next summer, and treated it the same. Since then I've brushed against poison oak regularly and haven't had a reaction again. Apparently I'm now desensitized.

 

Which leads me to believe that Cara is correct about prednisone that it causes the recurrence every summer. In fact I had it every summer from 1978 to 1989 even when I had no contact with any forest area. James Ramholz's description of the revenge cycle comes to mind with this, too. Prednisone for those that understand the molecular mechanisms is a very heavy drug. As a steroid synthetic version of the hormone cortisol, it binds a cell receptor and actually enters the cell. It also enters the cell's nucleus and "docks" on the DNA forcing a cellular response or a cellular inhibition. Steroids and thyroid hormone are among the very few molecules that act that deeply and powerfully.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

[Guest guest]

Emmanuel

 

Since i have seen many patients that have followed similar advise and did not have their poison oak sensitivity cured. I wander how widely your conclusions applies. You may be just on one side on the bell curve. By the way I have found both herbal washes and internal herbal formulas to help patients with itching so that they do not have to scratch. I think steroids can be used externally if one really wants to, or if one is getting breathing difficulties (not uncommon in severe cases). For these, steroids may be life saving.

alon

[Guest guest]

Local plants that are used for poison oak and ivy

 

JEWELWEED appears to be a natural cure for poison ivy and poison oak 

The plant usually grows in wet areas where poison ivy grows and has a

tuberous stem. The flowers appear in the fall and are a golden yellow. Take

the plant (all parts) and steep it in water for about 1/2 hour; then strain

and store the liquid in the freezer (ice cube trays work the best) or you

can put it in canning jars and store it. Dab the liquid on the infected area

several times a day. Usually within a day or two the rash dries up. Keeps

fresh for 48 hours, but may be frozen or canned. Frozen in an ice cube tray

you can take out and thaw what you need, when you need it, or planning on a

nice walk in the fields. 

 

Another one is the IMPATIENS plant

Take every part (except the roots) of IMPATIENS plant, break it up into

pieces & pop those in a blender with a couple of cups of water & whiz it all

up on puree. This releases all the juices in the leaves, flowers and stems.

Bring that mixture to a boil and simmer for a couple of minutes; cool down

and store in the refrigerator. You can strain it if you want to but we just

leave it as is! For some reason this takes the itch out and blisters do not

come up. It also works for poison oak. All we do is grab the jar and put the

liquid on with a cotton ball or just with fingers if in a hurry! We also use

it for mosquito bites and the itching stops immediately! If you get a

mosquito bite just pick a leaf of the impatiens, " smash " it and scratch it

on the bite.

 

I believe these plants are in bloom the same time that poison oak and ivy

are, as well as in the same area.

 

Ed Kasper, LAc Santa Cruz, CA

BTW, I am not afflicted by poison oak and ivy (knock on wood) BUT my older

sister is terribly so.

In my younger days I remember folioing in the grass with a friend and she

would came down with a bad case of poison oak and I'd just be free.

 

 

Message: 21

Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:02:53 -0500

" Alon Marcus " <alonmarcus

Re: Re: poison oak and ivy

 

I know all the downsides of steroids, but when you're this allergic, it's

the only humane solution.

>>>>Steroids are actually not that bed if taken short term. Its long term

use that is horrible

Alon

Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:09:09 -0700

" Emmanuel Segmen " <susegmen

Re: Re: poison oak and ivy

 

Brian Carter wrote:

I ended

up in the ER, surrounded by medical students and interns privileged to

witness what the attending called " the most advanced case he'd seen. " That

was after nearly a week of being isolated at home, feeling like a leper,

while the sores weeped... they gave me a prednisone taper, which worked

wonders.

 

I know all the downsides of steroids, but when you're this allergic, it's

the only humane solution.

 

Brian,

 

Your experience is also mine. I've been to the ER at UC San Francisco. I

used to be profoundly allergic to poison oak until I got some advice from

Dr. Kang in 1989. I've only had it very mildly a couple of times since.

Since Dr. Kang is a dermatology specialist, I asked him what his formula was

for poison oak. I also presented him with a several pustules between my

fingers near the dorsum of the hand. His answer was simple. He didn't use

any medicine. He said the cure was simpler than putting together some

expensive and time consuming salve. He said as Cara has said to wash it

thoroughly with detergent. The key then is to dry it thoroughly and keep it

absolutely dry. He said also to absolutely resist the temptation to touch

it at all. I stood there staring at him with the itchiness mounting on my

hand. In the years leading up to that moment I had gotten prednisone once

every summer for a full body bout of poison oak. I thought of pleading my

case again to him with a renewed sense of desperation, but on gut level I

had a sense he was right. He stated the case with such calm finality, I

sensed he was quite clear about it. Since I had already washed that hand

thoroughly, the only part of the treatment left to me was to keep the hand

dry and not to touch it. In 24 hours the pustules had dried up and were

reduced in size. After another 24 hours they were gone. I got a little bit

of poison oak the next summer, and treated it the same. Since then I've

brushed against poison oak regularly and haven't had a reaction again.

Apparently I'm now desensitized.

 

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

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[Guest guest]

Hi Alon,

 

I was one of those for whom steroids was "life saving". Historically, I used every sort of salve and like Marat Sade climbed in the bath tub to relieve my intensely itching rash. This, of course, was the exactly wrong procedure, and the rash would eventually cover my entire body after about 2 to 3 days ... even after thoroughly washing with detergent on the first day. Year by year I would wait usually up to three days and then finally give in to the inevitable and turn myself in to the ER at U.C.S.F. Medical center and get prednisone. So it was with great trepidation that I tried Dr. Kang's advice. Although placebo effect may be effective even from advice, I sense that my case is not unusual and not entirely due to placebo. Dr. Kang was the Chief of TCM at the Hospital #1 in Shanghai and based his clear advice on many years of treatment with a specialty in dermatology. I will say that I have no other evidence personally than Dr. Kang's words about this and my own experience. I don't know if epidemiological papers have been published on the issue. I'm grateful to have had the courage to try the procedure. Also keeping the skin perfectly dry and resisting the temptation to scratch at all for 48 hours is not so easy a proposition. I wonder how many people who try this approach would be disciplined enough to accomplish it? For sure there will be, as you have said, a "bell curve" for this just based on discipline alone. Thus, as you accurately note, steroids would be the easy way out for those at the other end of the curve. What ever curve that may be.

 

Emmanuel

 

-

Alon Marcus

Saturday, June 21, 2003 8:32 AM

Re: Re: poison oak and ivy

 

Emmanuel

 

Since i have seen many patients that have followed similar advise and did not have their poison oak sensitivity cured. I wander how widely your conclusions applies. You may be just on one side on the bell curve. By the way I have found both herbal washes and internal herbal formulas to help patients with itching so that they do not have to scratch. I think steroids can be used externally if one really wants to, or if one is getting breathing difficulties (not uncommon in severe cases). For these, steroids may be life saving.

alonChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

So it was with great trepidation that I tried Dr. Kang's advice. Although placebo effect may be effective even from advice

>>>>This is actually quit old advice and i have seen western MDs give it to patients. The question if to moisten or not moisten many skin problems is not standard. The dr i used to work with always told patients with poison oak and many other contact dermatitis to just wash well and then keep it dry and not touch. However like i said, i know of many that this was good advice as to management but they remained just as sensitive.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Ed.

 

I'm here in your general neighborhood near San Francisco Bay. I've been think of growing impatiens on my patio. Perhaps I'll put it together with jewelweed. Good information.

 

Emmanuel Segmen

 

-

Ed Kasper LAc. www.HappyHerbalist.com

Saturday, June 21, 2003 1:22 PM

Re: poison oak and ivy

Local plants that are used for poison oak and ivyJEWELWEED appears to be a natural cure for poison ivy and poison oak The plant usually grows in wet areas where poison ivy grows and has atuberous stem. The flowers appear in the fall and are a golden yellow. Takethe plant (all parts) and steep it in water for about 1/2 hour; then strainand store the liquid in the freezer (ice cube trays work the best) or youcan put it in canning jars and store it. Dab the liquid on the infected areaseveral times a day. Usually within a day or two the rash dries up. Keepsfresh for 48 hours, but may be frozen or canned. Frozen in an ice cube trayyou can take out and thaw what you need, when you need it, or planning on anice walk in the fields. Another one is the IMPATIENS plantTake every part (except the roots) of IMPATIENS plant, break it up intopieces & pop those in a blender with a couple of cups of water & whiz it allup on puree. This releases all the juices in the leaves, flowers and stems.Bring that mixture to a boil and simmer for a couple of minutes; cool downand store in the refrigerator. You can strain it if you want to but we justleave it as is! For some reason this takes the itch out and blisters do notcome up. It also works for poison oak. All we do is grab the jar and put theliquid on with a cotton ball or just with fingers if in a hurry! We also useit for mosquito bites and the itching stops immediately! If you get amosquito bite just pick a leaf of the impatiens, "smash" it and scratch iton the bite.I believe these plants are in bloom the same time that poison oak and ivyare, as well as in the same area.Ed Kasper, LAc Santa Cruz, CABTW, I am not afflicted by poison oak and ivy (knock on wood) BUT my oldersister is terribly so.In my younger days I remember folioing in the grass with a friend and shewould came down with a bad case of poison oak and I'd just be free.Message: 21 Fri, 20 Jun 2003 21:02:53 -0500 "Alon Marcus" <alonmarcusRe: Re: poison oak and ivyI know all the downsides of steroids, but when you're this allergic, it'sthe only humane solution.>>>>Steroids are actually not that bed if taken short term. Its long termuse that is horribleAlon Fri, 20 Jun 2003 23:09:09 -0700 "Emmanuel Segmen" <susegmenRe: Re: poison oak and ivyBrian Carter wrote:I endedup in the ER, surrounded by medical students and interns privileged towitness what the attending called "the most advanced case he'd seen." Thatwas after nearly a week of being isolated at home, feeling like a leper,while the sores weeped... they gave me a prednisone taper, which workedwonders.I know all the downsides of steroids, but when you're this allergic, it'sthe only humane solution.Brian,Your experience is also mine. I've been to the ER at UC San Francisco. Iused to be profoundly allergic to poison oak until I got some advice fromDr. Kang in 1989. I've only had it very mildly a couple of times since.Since Dr. Kang is a dermatology specialist, I asked him what his formula wasfor poison oak. I also presented him with a several pustules between myfingers near the dorsum of the hand. His answer was simple. He didn't useany medicine. He said the cure was simpler than putting together someexpensive and time consuming salve. He said as Cara has said to wash itthoroughly with detergent. The key then is to dry it thoroughly and keep itabsolutely dry. He said also to absolutely resist the temptation to touchit at all. I stood there staring at him with the itchiness mounting on myhand. In the years leading up to that moment I had gotten prednisone onceevery summer for a full body bout of poison oak. I thought of pleading mycase again to him with a renewed sense of desperation, but on gut level Ihad a sense he was right. He stated the case with such calm finality, Isensed he was quite clear about it. Since I had already washed that handthoroughly, the only part of the treatment left to me was to keep the handdry and not to touch it. In 24 hours the pustules had dried up and werereduced in size. After another 24 hours they were gone. I got a little bitof poison oak the next summer, and treated it the same. Since then I'vebrushed against poison oak regularly and haven't had a reaction again.Apparently I'm now desensitized.---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.491 / Virus Database: 290 - Release 6/18/2003Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education.

[Guest guest]

I have had excellent results (I am also in San Diego, where poison oak

is rampant) with MILD cases of poison oak by applying extract of huang

lian/coptis directly to the skin. It worked for two of my sons and

several young patients.

 

 

On Saturday, June 21, 2003, at 01:22 PM, Ed Kasper LAc.

www.HappyHerbalist.com wrote:

 

> Local plants that are used for poison oak and ivy

[Guest guest]

, " Emmanuel Segmen " wrote:

> I saw a congruence with Cara's comments about yearly returns of

the poison oak rash, James Ramholz comments about the five stage -

one year revenge cycle, and my own yearly experience with poison oak

returns whether I actually contacted poison oak or just stayed at

home and still got it. I can't further elucidate this congruence of

those observations with any molecular biology explanation. Perhaps

the intrepid James Ramholz could muster the courage to make

comments. >>>

 

 

Emmanuel:

 

Without seeing your pulses and being able to know for sure, I can

only speculate why your poison oak acts up in summer again---even

without renewed exposure. Most likely it is because it's not

entirely out of your system. Some of the oils may have penetrated

deeper [into fatty tissue?] and, perhaps, the cordisone also pushed

some of it deeper until the summer's heat (metal/skin is at its

lowest or weakest point during the fire season) pushes it back up to

the surface. So the pathogen is hidden until circumstances help

bring it to the surface again. So I'm looking at it as both an

exterior/interior condition [summer heat brings it to the surface

again], as well as in terms of 5-Phases [summer heat as well as the

poison's heat] attacking the skin.

 

If you can locate the localized parts of the affected channel(s) in

the pulses you might catch the profile of the condition.

 

In the meantime, I'm patiently waiting to see what sort of

catastrophe may befall the women who use Botox. As a hidden toxin

will probably affect the channels it is injected into and, then,

affect somewhere more interior. It will be interesting to see to

which area it gravitates and what the s/s are going to be.

 

 

 

Jim (working hard to achieve 'redoubtablity') Ramholz

[Guest guest]

, " Alon Marcus "

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> In the meantime, I'm patiently waiting to see what sort of

> catastrophe may befall the women who use Botox. As a hidden toxin

> will probably affect the channels it is injected into and, then,

> affect somewhere more interior. It will be interesting to see to

> which area it gravitates and what the s/s are going to be.

>

> >>>>>Why are you assuming that is will have such negative effects?

What area is toxicity of herbal formulas accumulate in and 20 years

later cause problems? or is it just technophobia? Or it just feels

good to assume such things >>>>

 

 

 

Alon:

 

Right now, just conjecture.

 

 

Jim Ramholz

[Guest guest]

>>> , "Alon Marcus"

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> In the meantime, I'm patiently waiting to see what sort of

> catastrophe may befall the women who use Botox. As a hidden toxin

> will probably affect the channels it is injected into and, then,

> affect somewhere more interior. It will be interesting to see to

> which area it gravitates and what the s/s are going to be.

>

> >>>>>Why are you assuming that is will have such negative effects?

What area is toxicity of herbal formulas accumulate in and 20 years

later cause problems? or is it just technophobia? Or it just feels

good to assume such things >>>><<<

 

Alon,

Since Botox is short for botulinum toxin, it seems likely to those of us who try to avoid in-toxic-ating our clients that this supposedly benign injection could well cause long-term negative side effects a la the latent/lurking pathogenic factor theory/Wen Bing/etc. It may well not. I for one would not be surprised if it does. And frankly, I will be surprised if it does not, but I do not wish anyone to suffer just to prove me right.

Joseph Garner

[Guest guest]

Since Botox is short for botulinum toxin, it seems likely to those of us who try to avoid in-toxic-ating our clients that this supposedly benign injection could well cause long-term negative side effects a la the latent/lurking pathogenic factor theory/Wen Bing/etc. It may well not. I for one would not be surprised if it does. And frankly, I will be surprised if it does not, but I do not wish anyone to suffer just to prove me right

 

>>>>It may or it may not. While having some well intentioned guiding principle can be helpful. It can also result in dogmatic fear. Only time and good science will tell. I am sure however that many (in the alternative med world) will start blaming botox for causing many maladies without any proof, just because it feels right. Just wait, the products are just around the corner

Alon

[Guest guest]

, " ALON MARCUS "

<alonmarcus@w...> wrote:

> Since Botox is short for botulinum toxin, it seems likely to those

of us who try to avoid in-toxic-ating our clients that this

supposedly benign injection could well cause long-term negative side

effects a la the latent/lurking pathogenic factor theory/Wen

Bing/etc. It may well not. I for one would not be surprised if it

does. And frankly, I will be surprised if it does not, but I do not

wish anyone to suffer just to prove me right

>

> >>>>It may or it may not. While having some well intentioned

guiding principle can be helpful. It can also result in dogmatic

fear. Only time and good science will tell. I am sure however that

many (in the alternative med world) will start blaming botox for

causing many maladies without any proof, just because it feels right.

Just wait, the products are just around the corner

> Alon

 

I agree with alon, these types of speculations may cause more harm

than good. But from a purely Chinese medical perspective, for

example, I personally see little justification (at this point)b for

the " potential " long-term side-effects of BOTOX being along the lines

of lurking pathogens from the wen bing era. The belief that anything

that " lurks " in the body to create some havoc later is far too

simplified to blindly be called a wenbing lurking pathogen, IMO. But

I would like to hear why you think this is so with BOTOX?

 

-

[Guest guest]

Z'ev - do I detect a change of heart? In my opinion we have no choice, it is occurring as we speak.

 

Will

 

Remember that Jin-Yuan physicians also applied classical theory in new ways.

Are we up for that task? Perhaps not, but I don't think it will hurt to try, as long as our limitations are understood.

[Guest guest]

Jason,

Theoretical constructs are designed for speculation, as long as

people recognize they are using working models. How can there be

anything wrong with using models to suggest that new phenomena may have

a long-term effect on health? It is like trying out different

equations with various theories in physics. It is part of the learning

and teaching process. Without it, there cannot be growth.

In Dr. Liu's Warm Disease text, he offers the possibility that many

drugs such as antidepressants may cause latent qi. And Dan Bensky

pointed out in his CHA lecture that while we may not use precipitating

medicinals such as da huang in modern practice for exterior disorders,

antibiotics can cause diarrhea in many patients, allowing the pathogen

to sink inwards. While these ideas are 'speculative', with time

clinical experience will determine what will work and what will not.

We shouldn't take it as gospel, but we shouldn't reject it either. The

botox phenomenon may well lead to a form of latent qi or transmuted

pattern. Time will tell.

 

For me, the latent qi model has a more specific application, as in chun

wen/spring warmth disease, and more broad application, to suppression

of disease factors deep in the yin interior.

Remember that Jin-Yuan physicians also applied classical theory in

new ways.

Are we up for that task? Perhaps not, but I don't think it will

hurt to try, as long as our limitations are understood.

 

 

On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 05:40 PM, wrote:

 

> I agree with alon, these types of speculations may cause more harm

> than good. But from a purely Chinese medical perspective, for

> example, I personally see little justification (at this point)b for

> the " potential " long-term side-effects of BOTOX being along the lines

> of lurking pathogens from the wen bing era. The belief that anything

> that " lurks " in the body to create some havoc later is far too

> simplified to blindly be called a wenbing lurking pathogen, IMO. But

> I would like to hear why you think this is so with BOTOX?

>

> -

[Guest guest]

Theoretical constructs are designed for speculation, as long as people recognize they are using working models

>>>That is the key. As long as this is made clear i have no problem with any speculation, development, or brake through ideas. If we are to setup the foundation and structure to test such ideas they should be welcomed.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Hmm I seem to recall your suggestion that it was not possible to extract information from the classics because of poor translations and that we should wait for Professor Unschuld's translation of the Nei Jing.

What MSU are referring to here?

Will Morris

 

 

No, I've never had a change of heart on this. This is application of classical theory to modern problems. . .we think it through, and then we apply. This is very different then MSU.

[Guest guest]

I would agree with you with a few qualifications. The Paradigm SHL is an example of a superior academic standard because it includes not only characters and the English translation - the China Science and Technology Press version of the Nei Jing also does this. Rather, it is because there is characters, pin yin, direct translation and commentary that draws from many authoritative resources; these are the reasons we can say the text adheres to an academic standard that should be encouraged. However, such adherence does not necessarily make it the best, there are many features that go into making books useful or even requisite including the quality of the 'read.'

BTW I didn't get your response to your reference re mou...

 

Will Morris

 

In a message dated 6/23/03 11:18:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zrosenbe writes:

 

 

What I remember saying was that we needed more accurate translations than what existed at the time, and/or access to the original Chinese text to be as accurate as possible. I still feel this way.

 

The Shang Han Lun of Mitchell/Wiseman/Feng remains the best translation of a Chinese medical classic, because you have a reliable English translation alongside the Chinese character and pinyin. This to me is still the ideal for any classic. Line by line access to character, pinyin, English translation with a glossary to check the terminology.

 

We use the tools we have in the best possible way. It is not an absolute thing.

 

As far as classical theory goes, I think that one doesn't have to read the entire Nei Jing to understand yin and yang, or every text on latent qi warm disease to apply the theory. However, the more access, and the more one studies, the richer and more accurate will be that application.

[Guest guest]

No, I've never had a change of heart on this. This is application of

classical theory to modern problems. . .we think it through, and then

we apply. This is very different then MSU.

 

 

On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 09:45 PM, WMorris116 wrote:

 

> Z'ev - do I detect a change of heart? In my opinion we have no choice,

> it is occurring as we speak.

>

> Will

>

> Remember that Jin-Yuan physicians also applied classical theory in

> new ways.

>    Are we up for that task?  Perhaps not, but I don't think it will

> hurt to try, as long as our limitations are understood.

>

>

>

>

<image.tiff>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed

> healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate

> academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety

> of professional services, including board approved online continuing

> education.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What I remember saying was that we needed more accurate translations

than what existed at the time, and/or access to the original Chinese

text to be as accurate as possible. I still feel this way.

 

The Shang Han Lun of Mitchell/Wiseman/Feng remains the best translation

of a Chinese medical classic, because you have a reliable English

translation alongside the Chinese character and pinyin. This to me is

still the ideal for any classic. Line by line access to character,

pinyin, English translation with a glossary to check the terminology.

 

We use the tools we have in the best possible way. It is not an

absolute thing.

 

As far as classical theory goes, I think that one doesn't have to read

the entire Nei Jing to understand yin and yang, or every text on latent

qi warm disease to apply the theory. However, the more access, and the

more one studies, the richer and more accurate will be that application.

 

 

On Monday, June 23, 2003, at 10:41 PM, WMorris116 wrote:

 

> Hmm I seem to recall your suggestion that it was not possible to

> extract information from the classics because of poor translations and

> that we should wait for Professor Unschuld's translation of the Nei

> Jing.