Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 There are basically three components of music which have an effect on the body. Managing these three things is what makes the difference between music that heals and music that doesn't. TONE QUALITY Traditional musical instruments embody sounds which humans have lived with for most of our time on this planet. These instruments include sounds which emulate, in some way or another, sounds of nature. Therefore, these comfort us. Over the past few centuries, as we have integrated more technology in our lives, we have seen a corresponding evolution in instruments. First, there came the brass instruments, which are a few steps away from natural sounds. But since they rely on moving columns of air and precise mathematical principles, they still provide some comfort. Now, we have advanced electronic synthesizers, which give us the ability to emulate any sound, whether natural or not. Modern technology generates increasingly chaotic sounds. Parallel with that has been the development of musical sounds which emulate machine noises. These sounds, which include electric guitars and synthesized noises, may not provide comfort, but they are an attempt to help us deal with the new noises in our living environments. One German band went so far as to scrounge bits of metal from junkyards, and include those sounds in their performances and recordings. These newer ideas need to be utilized carefully. Too often, intense metallic percussive noises will cause people to feel more tense, and thus inhibit natural healing. Therefore, it is best to use Classical music, and newer music using those instruments, whenever possible. This will have a tendency to bring bodies back to more natural states and relieve stress. TONE SEQUENCE This is known to musicians as modes and scales. Each musical scale, no matter where it was developed in the world, has a particular effect. Without getting into technical details, which have been written up elsewhere, here are a few guidelines for people who live in European and American cultures. Major scales are a mirror of the natural assymetry of the human body. Extensive experimentation and experience has shown that playing music in major scales will tend to help people heal physical problems. Generally, major scales with natural tone quality will instantly give muscle strength, as proven in many laboratory and kinesthetic tests. Classical music in major scales is always good, and everyone should keep a good supply on hand. Minor scales were traditionally used in church music to help people deal with tragedies, which in former days were much more frequent than now. These can be safely used whenever someone is dealing with the necessity of recovering from a severe and sudden loss. This is not psychological -- the music works on the physical sensations that go along with a situation. Flamenco music, which uses a special scale from the Middle East, has a special purpose. It appears to speed up healing of any joint or cartilage problems. There are many other possible modes and scales. The music of India includes over 80,000 possibilities, which have been extensively classified for use at particular times of day and seasons. Most European and American music is based on a system developed by Pythagoras around 650 B.C. About 144 possibilities are embodied in this system, which is a little more manageable. Be careful when experimenting, because some scales and modes are dangerous when used out of context. A more detailed article on this subject, which can only be understood by people familiar with music theory, is entitled " 7 Keys to Health " , and is available elsewhere on the Web. RHYTHM Most classical music has very conservative rhythms. This tends to facilitate healing. Therefore, classical music can always be regarded as safe. In Africa, several classifications of rhythms were developed over the centuries. Only in the past 150 years have any of these been widely used in America and Europe. Special rhythms derived from these traditions have the potential of assisting in healing from specific ailments. There is an obvious difficulty in illustrating these in a text file. Two particular rhythms have caused problems, and should be avoided. The first is best illustrated in the song " We Will Rock You " by Queen. This has been proven to cause muscle weakness in laboratory and kinesthetic tests. It is the opposite of the human heartbeat. Mostly it is found in Hard Rock, Heavy Metal, Reggae, and Rap. However, it can be found in other popular forms on occasion. The other can be found in most of Chuck Berry's music. It is called " Legba " in some West African traditions. It tends to overstimulate human sexual systems. A lot more research needs to be done in this area, as there are literally an infinite number of possible rhythmic combinations. FURTHER GENERALITIES The majority of popular music in any culture tends to have a neutral effect on the body, and so will not have any particular use in healing practice. Some musical traditions have special purposes. For example, the Tamburitzen music of Yugoslavia will impart a lot of raw energy to many people. Greek and Turkish music can do that too. Some Japanese and Chinese music creates a very calming atmosphere which can be ideal for acupuncture treatments. Indonesian Gamelan music helps to bring together a community. Native American traditional dance music does that too. Much Irish music will generally help a person to cheer up. It is not good to use music during treatments which involve intense pain. This includes situations which involve anesthesia. Music should never be played during surgery in particular. One instance has been found in which music can act as an anesthetic. This is Tibetan bells used during dental work. More research clearly needs to be done in this area. Classical music is a very large field. For simplicity, memorizing the names of a few composers whose music reliably promotes healing is a good idea. Here is a short list, to help save time and trouble: Bach Telemann Vivaldi Corelli Pachelbel Vejvanovsky Brahms Mozart Mendelssohn More modern composers, beginning with Beethoven, usually still have a good effect, but can be less consistent in their overall usefulness depending on the composition. However, many of the Nationalist composers have created many pieces which most people will find inspiring, even if the physical effect is not always as prominent. Here is a list of some reliable Nationalist composers: Dvorzak Grieg Prokoviev Smetana Respighi Enesco R. Strauss J. Strauss Be careful with the music of four composers in particular. They created some great works, and a few which can cause problems. These are: Tchaikovsky Liszt Wagner Stravinsky Two English composers deserve mention, because they set up music which is especially good for creating a calming environment: Edward Elgar Cyril Scott You will notice that French composers are conspicuously absent from these lists. Much of their music is good for healing too, but the extreme humanist bias of French culture which drove the 1789 Revolution has contaminated much of their work, and so caution is advised. There are many recent works in the field of what could be called " Extended Classical " which are very useful. Some of these have been covered elsewhere in a series of music reviews produced over the past few years. Questions about specific pieces of music are always welcome. Forwarding or copying all or part of this file is permitted, provided that the author's name and email address are always included. Michael Riversong rivedu -- Michael Riversong ** Professional Harpist, Educator, and Writer ** RivEdu ** Phone: (307)635-0900 FAX (413)691-0399 http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 > RHYTHM > Two particular rhythms have caused problems, and should be avoided. > > The first is best illustrated in the song " We Will Rock You " by Queen. This has been proven to cause muscle weakness in laboratory and kinesthetic tests. It is the opposite of the human heartbeat. Mostly it is found in Hard Rock, Heavy Metal, Reggae, and Rap. However, it can be found in other popular forms on occasion. ~*~*~ I find it interesting that this particular song is mentioned here. It is extremely popular at team sporting events to boost motivation. Makes one wonder what effect that it has on the playing team members during a game. The other thing I find intriguing is the mention of hard rock/heavy metal. Many people I know speak of experiencing erratic heartbeat and panic attacks while listening to this kind of music. You mention that it is the opposite of the heartbeat. I also find this interesting. From what I have studied, most trance drumming music is heartbeat based, with emphasis on the 'down' beat. I would be interested in further correlation. > > The other can be found in most of Chuck Berry's music. It is called " Legba " in some West African traditions. It tends to overstimulate human sexual systems. ~*~*~ Overstimulating is a bad thing? J/K. <soft smile> Thank you Michael. Looking very forward to more. Clove ~You already hold the key to everything you wish to become. You just need to stop putting it in the keyhole upside down.~ ____________________________ Send a friend your Buddy Card and stay in contact always with Excite Messenger http://messenger.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2001 Report Share Posted December 11, 2001 It is not good to use music during treatments which involve intense pain. This includes situations which involve anesthesia. Music should never be played during surgery in particular. One instance has been found in which music can act as an anesthetic. This is Tibetan bells used during dental work. More research clearly needs to be done in this area. Just a quick note here. When I had to go for dental work about 4 years ago.. and was in pretty rough shape... I took a CD with my Chopin recordings on it. (Who I happen to adore...love to play his music as well as listen) Without question this helped me get through a very difficult and painful situation...so I don't understand the above. Also...why should music not be played during surgery.. are you referring to when a patient is totally unconscious? Can you elaborate or send me a reference? Thanks Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2001 Report Share Posted December 13, 2001 Every human society includes athletics. The fact that our society uses that particular song and its rhythm so often at events, is to me only a sign of corruption. This corruption extends into every area of society, and is part of the reason for the existence of groups like ours who are in one way or another fighting that. As for trance drumming, i have way too much experience with that. In general, we should regard trances as unhealthy. Whenever someone is in a trance, there is a great danger of being fed perceptions that could cause trouble later on. Also, i directly observed, during involvement with a group of drummers that spanned several years, the effect of drumming on sexual systems. The group had chronic problems with incidents of sexual harrassment during events. When i deliberately added high notes on either flute or a small harp, these incidents mostly stopped. As for overstimulation of sexual systems, take careful note of Chuck Berry's legal troubles and what he has been convicted for. That says a lot. At 11:00 AM 12/11/01 -0800, you wrote: >> RHYTHM > >> Two particular rhythms have caused problems, and should be avoided. >> >> The first is best illustrated in the song " We Will Rock You " by Queen. >This has been proven to cause muscle weakness in laboratory and kinesthetic >tests. It is the opposite of the human heartbeat. Mostly it is found in >Hard Rock, Heavy Metal, Reggae, and Rap. However, it can be found in other >popular forms on occasion. >~*~*~ >I find it interesting that this particular song is mentioned here. It is >extremely popular at team sporting events to boost motivation. Makes one >wonder what effect that it has on the playing team members during a game. >The other thing I find intriguing is the mention of hard rock/heavy metal. >Many people I know speak of experiencing erratic heartbeat and panic attacks >while listening to this kind of music. >You mention that it is the opposite of the heartbeat. I also find this >interesting. From what I have studied, most trance drumming music is >heartbeat based, with emphasis on the 'down' beat. I would be interested in >further correlation. > >> >> The other can be found in most of Chuck Berry's music. It is called > " Legba " in some West African traditions. It tends to overstimulate human >sexual systems. >~*~*~ >Overstimulating is a bad thing? J/K. <soft smile> > >Thank you Michael. Looking very forward to more. >Clove > >~You already hold the key to everything you wish to become. You just need to >stop putting it in the keyhole upside down.~ > > -- Michael Riversong ** Professional Harpist, Educator, and Writer ** RivEdu ** Phone: (307)635-0900 FAX (413)691-0399 http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2001 Report Share Posted December 13, 2001 > As for trance drumming, i have way too much experience with that. In > general, we should regard trances as unhealthy. Whenever someone is in a > trance, there is a great danger of being fed perceptions that could cause > trouble later on. ~*~*~ Michael, I am curious as to your response to this. Many people use trancing as a way of spiritual meditation/communication. Are you referring specifically to outside influences on our psyche or something during the trance that could be derogatory to our health? Lowered heartbeat, that such..etc. If it is the latter, how so? Also, i directly observed, during involvement with a > group of drummers that spanned several years, the effect of drumming on > sexual systems. The group had chronic problems with incidents of sexual > harrassment during events. When i deliberately added high notes on either > flute or a small harp, these incidents mostly stopped. ~*~*~ Again, is this something that directly effects ones health or just a responsibility level dependant on the person/s involved? I can see where harrassment issues would definitely be a possible problem (been there, danced to that) but what about the actual nervous system responses...? Graciously, Clove ~You already hold the key to everything you wish to become. You just need to stop putting it in the keyhole upside down.~ ____________________________ Send a friend your Buddy Card and stay in contact always with Excite Messenger http://messenger.excite.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2001 Report Share Posted December 13, 2001 This is one of the most complicated and difficult issues in both the musical and health areas. Because of many personal experiences where i have seen people deteriorate over time as they got more into trance/hypnosis activities, i now find myself very intolerant of certain practices. What happens is, normal protective nerve system responses become invalid when someone is in a trance state. On a purely physical level, this can have the potential of opening up the immune system inadvertently. On a mental level, a person becomes highly suggestible and can begin believing in false or unhealthy data. On a spiritual level, demonic possession is a possibility. Thus, my own experience has formed the opinion that people should never get into trance or hypnotic states under any circumstances. Of course i recognize that this goes against the tide of religious tolerance, so it is a recommendation and i do not pursue legislative remedies. Instead, we should use the perceptual systems that God gave us, and beyond that rely only on the Holy Spirit of the Creator of the Universe. Sure, we might hang around at the occasional drum frenzy, but we must learn to keep our wits about us. That's what gives us the best shot at optimum health. It sure appeared to me that the harrassment problems were a direct result of nerve over-stimulation. There are a large number of individual nerves involved in human sexual systems, as evidenced by the ability of many people with spinal cord injuries to continue with sexual performance. I came by all this experience honestly. If you want further details, contact me privately off the list. At 12:45 PM 12/13/01 -0800, you wrote: > >> As for trance drumming, i have way too much experience with that. In >> general, we should regard trances as unhealthy. Whenever someone is in a >> trance, there is a great danger of being fed perceptions that could cause >> trouble later on. >~*~*~ >Michael, I am curious as to your response to this. Many people use trancing >as a way of spiritual meditation/communication. Are you referring >specifically to outside influences on our psyche or something during the >trance that could be derogatory to our health? Lowered heartbeat, that >such..etc. If it is the latter, how so? > > Also, i directly observed, during involvement with a >> group of drummers that spanned several years, the effect of drumming on >> sexual systems. The group had chronic problems with incidents of sexual >> harrassment during events. When i deliberately added high notes on >either >> flute or a small harp, these incidents mostly stopped. >~*~*~ >Again, is this something that directly effects ones health or just a >responsibility level dependant on the person/s involved? I can see where >harrassment issues would definitely be a possible problem (been there, >danced to that) but what about the actual nervous system responses...? >Graciously, >Clove > >~You already hold the key to everything you wish to become. You just need to >stop putting it in the keyhole upside down.~ > > > > > >____________________________ >Send a friend your Buddy Card and stay in contact always with Excite Messenger >http://messenger.excite.com > > > > >Federal Law requires that we warn you of the following: >1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. >2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. >3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and to >prescribe for your own health. >We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as >they behave themselves. >Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person >following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. >It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to >be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. > >Dr. Ian Shillington >Doctor of Naturopathy >Dr.IanShillington > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 herbal remedies, Michael Riversong <rivedu@e...> wrote: > In Dianetics, it has been proven that any sounds in the environment that happen during severe physical trauma, including anything that happens under anesthetic, will cause trouble later on. Yep. The basis for this goes way back to Pavlov's respondent conditioning and Skinner's operant conditioning. Respondent refers to things like heart rate, salivation, and other autonomic responses that appear to be out of our control. Operant refers to our actions, which we can control. It's been theorized that if surgeons mention that they think you're probably going to die while they're doing surgery on you, you probably will die. Yes, they're likely to say it if it's true, but there's something else going on here. They now believe they're programming your subconscious mind, which is very vulnerable when you're under general anesthetic, making you expect to die, so you do. Your surgeon's conversational topic during surgery is an even bigger concern than the music that might be played. A sentient (thinking, reacting) being's very survival depends on it's ability to learn, and we learn by making associations. The way humans and animals learn is to do something, and watch to see what happens right afterward. If what happens is pleasant (reward), we tend to repeat the action that proceeded the reward. Our ancestors repeated actions that got them food, sex, protection from the elements, social status and more. This is the secret of the success of Krispy Cremes! lol! If what happens after is unpleasant (punishment), we tend to decrease the action or avoid the situation. We learn not to stick our fingers on the stove burner. If we're humiliated in school, we learn to hate school and may develop stomache or headaches at the thought of it. If we're afraid of heights, our hands get clammy when we watch the guy walking on the I-beam on the high-rise in a movie. Punish the puppy for going potty in the middle of the living room rug, and he'll learn to wait till you're not looking to do his business behind the couch (no, he didn't do this to " get you " ). If nothing happens, neither reward nor punishment, we tend to give up the action as a waste of our time and efforts. When the candy machine hangs up on your bag of Fritos, if you keep body slamming it and the Fritos don't ever drop down, you'll eventually give up and walk away without your prize. If this happens very many times, you won't use that candy machine again. These associations are being made by us all the time, whether or not we're aware of it. This is primal survival stuff. Without their ability to correct their actions based on results, our ancestors wouldn't have survived long enough to procreate, and we wouldn't be here. The same is true for cats, dogs, horses, fleas, whales, giraffes, etc. We learn by making " mistakes " (no payoff, or bad payoff) or doing things " right " (good payoff). Humans and some animals (but not all; think of lemmings) also learn by observing others. If we see someone fall off a cliff and die, cliff edge = danger in our minds thereafter. Think of a favorite song that had meaning to yourself and a mate. When you hear that song, you think of that person because an association was made. The smell of a certain perfume or lotion might remind you of your grandmother. Buttered popcorn, or the sight of a wall sconce being dimmed might make you happy because it reminds you of the fun of going to the movies. I suspect a lot of us like antiques because our grandparents had antiques and were good to us. These associations become conditioned on a subconscious and respondent level, and they can involve any or all of our senses. If your mother was wearing a red skirt and running the vacuum one day when you were a kid, and you fell down the stairs and got a terrible headache, you may now experience a headache at the sight of a red skirt or the sound of a vacuum -- but you are unlikely to remember and recognize the connection. When the phone rings, we can jump to answer it almost without thinking. When your cat hears the can opener, he comes running for his dinner, salivating like Pavlov's dogs. When you hear a siren behind you in traffic, your hear rate will increase. If your parents beat you to make you eat your broccoli, you probably still hate broccoli. Two men will sit on a park bench and a woman walks by. The first guy thinks she's beautiful. The second is not attracted to her. Why? She has a nose like the first guy's second grade teacher, who was always very kind to him. But she walks like a nun that used to crack the second guy over the knuckles with a ruler. Is either man consciously aware of their associations? Nope. Children and animals are particularly good at using these principles on each other and on us. Watch your dog try to play with your cat while the cat is napping. The cat will remain very still and unresponsive (no payoff) until the dog gives up and goes away. The child quickly learns that throwing a loud temper tantrum in a public place is likely to get him what he wants, and the parent complies to escape the public embarrassment (punishment). Now we unfairly label the child as " difficult " or " stubborn " when in actuality, all we're seeing is a child that can learn well. He's just doing what he knows will pay off, and we are the one who trained him to react that way. When we hear, " My parrot is a real brat. He screams and screams until I finally pay attention to him " , or " My puppy wakes me up at 3:00 AM every morning to get me to take him outside " , the answer as to why the animal behaves in this way is immediately apparent. You can use this knowledge to the advantage of yourself and those around you. For instance, if your dog loves to fetch his ball, but is terrified of thunderstorms, try playing or singing a particular song every time you play fetch with him. Then play that music or sing that song, and get out the ball the next time there's a thunderstorm. See if he forgets about his fear. Promise your teenager that leather jacket she wants if she gets her homework done right after school every day for a month, and if she wants it bad enough, you won't even have to remind her again. Check these behavior principles out for yourself by just watching others. See if you can figure out why they do what they do. Where's their reward? So here's a curve ball in your studies, Michael, sorry. Associations can taint any blanket statements we could make about music... it can depend on your particular history of association. If your parents played classical music and brutally beat you, you won't likely find classical music soothing. The laboratory rat might, but he has no previous associations with music. So we might say that classical music is " naturally " soothing, but that won't hold true for all the people all the time; we're all different. So what's wrong with hearing music during surgery or a painful or traumatic experience? Associations made by your mind. Psychologists Keller Breland and Marian Breland-Bailey were the first to discover that operant and respondent conditioning happen simultaneously. The music will condition you to " remember " that bad experience when that you hear it again, even if you don't realize it in your conscious mind. This rememberance might take place not only on a subconscious, but on a cellular level, influencing your brain/blood chemistry in a negative or even dangerous way. Now, there may be other reasons, but that's the one of which I'm aware. Also, do you think quantum physics might play a part here? Melinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2001 Report Share Posted December 14, 2001 > I came by all this experience honestly. If you want further details, > contact me privately off the list. ~*~*~ Michael, thank you for the info and answers to my questions. Due to my respect for you and your feelings about this particular area, I shall just silently agree to disagree. <soft smile> I am looking very forward to more of your research regarding music. Blessings to you. Clove Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 please don't forward to me I am getting 25 to 30 e-mails fromn this group adfay thank you Billie --- Michael Riversong <rivedu wrote: > Every human society includes athletics. The fact > that our society uses that > particular song and its rhythm so often at events, > is to me only a sign of > corruption. This corruption extends into every area > of society, and is part > of the reason for the existence of groups like ours > who are in one way or > another fighting that. > > As for trance drumming, i have way too much > experience with that. In > general, we should regard trances as unhealthy. > Whenever someone is in a > trance, there is a great danger of being fed > perceptions that could cause > trouble later on. Also, i directly observed, during > involvement with a > group of drummers that spanned several years, the > effect of drumming on > sexual systems. The group had chronic problems with > incidents of sexual > harrassment during events. When i deliberately > added high notes on either > flute or a small harp, these incidents mostly > stopped. > > As for overstimulation of sexual systems, take > careful note of Chuck Berry's > legal troubles and what he has been convicted for. > That says a lot. > > At 11:00 AM 12/11/01 -0800, you wrote: > >> RHYTHM > > > >> Two particular rhythms have caused problems, and > should be avoided. > >> > >> The first is best illustrated in the song " We > Will Rock You " by Queen. > >This has been proven to cause muscle weakness in > laboratory and kinesthetic > >tests. It is the opposite of the human heartbeat. > Mostly it is found in > >Hard Rock, Heavy Metal, Reggae, and Rap. However, > it can be found in other > >popular forms on occasion. > >~*~*~ > >I find it interesting that this particular song is > mentioned here. It is > >extremely popular at team sporting events to boost > motivation. Makes one > >wonder what effect that it has on the playing team > members during a game. > >The other thing I find intriguing is the mention of > hard rock/heavy metal. > >Many people I know speak of experiencing erratic > heartbeat and panic attacks > >while listening to this kind of music. > >You mention that it is the opposite of the > heartbeat. I also find this > >interesting. From what I have studied, most trance > drumming music is > >heartbeat based, with emphasis on the 'down' beat. > I would be interested in > >further correlation. > > > >> > >> The other can be found in most of Chuck Berry's > music. It is called > > " Legba " in some West African traditions. It tends > to overstimulate human > >sexual systems. > >~*~*~ > >Overstimulating is a bad thing? J/K. <soft smile> > > > >Thank you Michael. Looking very forward to more. > >Clove > > > >~You already hold the key to everything you wish to > become. You just need to > >stop putting it in the keyhole upside down.~ > > > > > -- Michael Riversong ** > Professional Harpist, Educator, and Writer ** > RivEdu ** Phone: (307)635-0900 FAX > (413)691-0399 > http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong > > Check out Shopping and Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at or bid at http://auctions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 This is fascinating. On one level, it is good to see such a thorough analysis of the problem from the standpoint of Skinner's work. Usually i tend to completely discredit his work, mainly because it leaves out the spiritual aspect of these phenomena. There is a joke among Libertarians in this region that Skinner should have been forced to live under his own principles -- he probably would have found it to be an unspeakable tyrrany. But this analysis is useful on the material level, and i do appreciate it. Subconscious associations do indeed play a large part in material life, and it is good to acknowledge that. The next step, of course, is to analyze the significance of subconscious phenomena from a spiritual perspective. As for the link between music and subconscious associations, i have been preparing a module on this subject for the files. Now i need to speed up work on that. As for quantum physics and subconscious phenomena, that's discussed endlessly on another list i belong to. We all generally agree that there is a substratum of all matter and energy that is somehow connected to God. Terminologies differ greatly. I like the term " Microvita " , which comes from the founder of the Ananda Marga Yoga Society, P.R. Sarkar. Some Christian researchers have used the term " Yaweh " , which might be useful but has some implications that i don't prefer. In any event, this substratum goes a long way towards resolving a lot of problems such as the ones you so ably analyze here. Partly what i see happening here is that you managed to restate some of the ideas that are contained in the original Dianetics book. At 10:55 AM 12/14/01 -0000, you wrote: >herbal remedies, Michael Riversong <rivedu@e...> wrote: >> In Dianetics, it has been proven that any sounds in the environment >that happen during severe physical trauma, including anything that >happens under anesthetic, will cause trouble later on. > >Yep. The basis for this goes way back to Pavlov's respondent >conditioning and Skinner's operant conditioning. Respondent refers >to things like heart rate, salivation, and other autonomic responses >that appear to be out of our control. Operant refers to our actions, >which we can control. > >It's been theorized that if surgeons mention that they think you're >probably going to die while they're doing surgery on you, you >probably will die. Yes, they're likely to say it if it's true, but >there's something else going on here. They now believe they're >programming your subconscious mind, which is very vulnerable when >you're under general anesthetic, making you expect to die, so you >do. Your surgeon's conversational topic during surgery is an even >bigger concern than the music that might be played. > >A sentient (thinking, reacting) being's very survival depends on it's >ability to learn, and we learn by making associations. The way >humans and animals learn is to do something, and watch to see what >happens right afterward. > >If what happens is pleasant (reward), we tend to repeat the action >that proceeded the reward. Our ancestors repeated actions that got >them food, sex, protection from the elements, social status and >more. This is the secret of the success of Krispy Cremes! lol! > >If what happens after is unpleasant (punishment), we tend to decrease >the action or avoid the situation. We learn not to stick our fingers >on the stove burner. If we're humiliated in school, we learn to hate >school and may develop stomache or headaches at the thought of it. >If we're afraid of heights, our hands get clammy when we watch the >guy walking on the I-beam on the high-rise in a movie. Punish the >puppy for going potty in the middle of the living room rug, and he'll >learn to wait till you're not looking to do his business behind the >couch (no, he didn't do this to " get you " ). > >If nothing happens, neither reward nor punishment, we tend to give up >the action as a waste of our time and efforts. When the candy >machine hangs up on your bag of Fritos, if you keep body slamming it >and the Fritos don't ever drop down, you'll eventually give up and >walk away without your prize. If this happens very many times, you >won't use that candy machine again. > >These associations are being made by us all the time, whether or not >we're aware of it. This is primal survival stuff. Without their >ability to correct their actions based on results, our ancestors >wouldn't have survived long enough to procreate, and we wouldn't be >here. The same is true for cats, dogs, horses, fleas, whales, >giraffes, etc. We learn by making " mistakes " (no payoff, or bad >payoff) or doing things " right " (good payoff). Humans and some >animals (but not all; think of lemmings) also learn by observing >others. If we see someone fall off a cliff and die, cliff edge = >danger in our minds thereafter. > >Think of a favorite song that had meaning to yourself and a mate. >When you hear that song, you think of that person because an >association was made. The smell of a certain perfume or lotion might >remind you of your grandmother. Buttered popcorn, or the sight of a >wall sconce being dimmed might make you happy because it reminds you >of the fun of going to the movies. I suspect a lot of us like >antiques because our grandparents had antiques and were good to us. > >These associations become conditioned on a subconscious and >respondent level, and they can involve any or all of our senses. If >your mother was wearing a red skirt and running the vacuum one day >when you were a kid, and you fell down the stairs and got a terrible >headache, you may now experience a headache at the sight of a red >skirt or the sound of a vacuum -- but you are unlikely to remember >and recognize the connection. When the phone rings, we can jump to >answer it almost without thinking. When your cat hears the can >opener, he comes running for his dinner, salivating like Pavlov's >dogs. When you hear a siren behind you in traffic, your hear rate >will increase. If your parents beat you to make you eat your >broccoli, you probably still hate broccoli. > >Two men will sit on a park bench and a woman walks by. The first guy >thinks she's beautiful. The second is not attracted to her. Why? >She has a nose like the first guy's second grade teacher, who was >always very kind to him. But she walks like a nun that used to crack >the second guy over the knuckles with a ruler. Is either man >consciously aware of their associations? Nope. > >Children and animals are particularly good at using these principles >on each other and on us. Watch your dog try to play with your cat >while the cat is napping. The cat will remain very still and >unresponsive (no payoff) until the dog gives up and goes away. The >child quickly learns that throwing a loud temper tantrum in a public >place is likely to get him what he wants, and the parent complies to >escape the public embarrassment (punishment). Now we unfairly label >the child as " difficult " or " stubborn " when in actuality, all we're >seeing is a child that can learn well. He's just doing what he knows >will pay off, and we are the one who trained him to react that way. >When we hear, " My parrot is a real brat. He screams and screams >until I finally pay attention to him " , or " My puppy wakes me up at >3:00 AM every morning to get me to take him outside " , the answer as >to why the animal behaves in this way is immediately apparent. > >You can use this knowledge to the advantage of yourself and those >around you. For instance, if your dog loves to fetch his ball, but >is terrified of thunderstorms, try playing or singing a particular >song every time you play fetch with him. Then play that music or >sing that song, and get out the ball the next time there's a >thunderstorm. See if he forgets about his fear. Promise your >teenager that leather jacket she wants if she gets her homework done >right after school every day for a month, and if she wants it bad >enough, you won't even have to remind her again. > >Check these behavior principles out for yourself by just watching >others. See if you can figure out why they do what they do. Where's >their reward? > >So here's a curve ball in your studies, Michael, sorry. Associations >can taint any blanket statements we could make about music... it can >depend on your particular history of association. If your parents >played classical music and brutally beat you, you won't likely find >classical music soothing. The laboratory rat might, but he has no >previous associations with music. So we might say that classical >music is " naturally " soothing, but that won't hold true for all the >people all the time; we're all different. > >So what's wrong with hearing music during surgery or a painful or >traumatic experience? Associations made by your mind. Psychologists >Keller Breland and Marian Breland-Bailey were the first to discover >that operant and respondent conditioning happen simultaneously. The >music will condition you to " remember " that bad experience when that >you hear it again, even if you don't realize it in your conscious >mind. This rememberance might take place not only on a subconscious, >but on a cellular level, influencing your brain/blood chemistry in a >negative or even dangerous way. > >Now, there may be other reasons, but that's the one of which I'm >aware. Also, do you think quantum physics might play a part here? > >Melinda > -- Michael Riversong ** Professional Harpist, Educator, and Writer ** RivEdu ** Phone: (307)635-0900 FAX (413)691-0399 http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2001 Report Share Posted December 15, 2001 herbal remedies, Michael Riversong <rivedu@e...> wrote: > This is fascinating. On one level, it is good to see such a thorough analysis of the problem from the standpoint of Skinner's work. Usually i tend to completely discredit his work, mainly because it leaves out the spiritual aspect of these phenomena. That's interesting. I've worked with animals (and sometimes humans) using these principles for over a decade, as well as observing thousands of others working with them, and they hold true -- that's in thousands upon of incidences. Skinner's work is a welcome in the field of pet animal training at this writing, and has been widely employed as the method of choice since 1947 by professional animal trainers, for whom time and efficiency meant money. We've been able to use the positive aspects of operant conditioning (OC) principles (positive reward and negative punishment only) to modify animal behavior with kindness and compassion, and no use of " punishment " as the word is used in layman's terms (no positive punishment or negative reward). A secondary reinforcer bridges the human-animal communication gap beautifully. The animals love it, and it's easily employed by the novice to improve relationships, enhance animal and human lives, and help to prevent animals from being abused or rehomed due to behavioral issues. I have friends who have applied these principles successfully with about every type of animal imaginable (zoo, aquatic, farm, wild and domestic, police work, pets, etc.). I also know teachers who consciously use these principles not only to manage behavior in the classroom (preschool through college), sometimes with the most challenging students, but to inspire the students to really enjoy the learning experience. I've also watched folks use these principles to save failing marriages, to become more loving and effective parents, and to improve relationships with extended family, friends and co- workers. I'm sure you'll agree this is a huge leap of progress away from the traditional force and dominance methods of behavioral modification. I do work with dogs, but my main devotion has been in working with birds, who can be very challenging pets. A lot of working with birds effectively is counter-intuitive. I just finished a book about parrot training which should be out in a few months. Birds can be very challenging pets and way too many are ending up abused and in rescue; we are having a positive effect on preventing that. I've run an email list on bird behavior for almost 6 years now, helping everyday people understand and work with their birds, so it's been quite an education watching how these principles invariably work, and sharing creative ways to apply them for the benefit of the critters as well as the humans who love them. Rather than the old fashioned method of " dominating " animals (employees, children, etc.), it works much better to respect them, and let them make their own decisions in their own good time, and reward behavior you'd like to see repeated. Also it's interesting to note, the use of positive OC principles has yielded huge breakthroughs in communicating effectively with severely autistic and mentally disadvantaged children and adults. > There is a joke among Libertarians in this region that Skinner should have been forced to live under his own principles -- he probably would have found it to be an unspeakable tyrrany. I'm a Libertarian too, and I've never heard about that nor am I sure how it's meant. However, pure Skinnerism is as unrealistic an expectation as pure Libertarianism... but that doesn't mean we couldn't use a lot more of both. Nevertheless, these principles are used daily in our lives all of the time... there's no escaping it. So we can learn how it works and employ it to everyone's advantage, or simply stumble along wondering what's going on around us. > But this analysis is useful on the material level, and i do appreciate it. You're very welcome, Michael. > Subconscious associations do indeed play a large part in material life, and it is good to acknowledge that. Yes, and conscious associations as well. > The next step, of course, is to analyze the significance of subconscious phenomena from a spiritual perspective. How would that be done? > As for the link between music and subconscious associations, i have been preparing a module on this subject for the files. Now i need to speed up work on that. It will no doubt be interesting to read your observations; I'm looking forward to it. > In any event, this substratum goes a long way towards resolving a lot of problems such as the ones you so ably analyze here. Partly what i see happening here is that you managed to restate some of the ideas that are contained in the original Dianetics book. What was the original copyright date on that, Michael? L. Ron Hubbard must have studied Skinner's work, then, as I doubt he was involved in that depth of scientific study on behavior. What we use today has come a long way from the earlier work in many ways. We've had 60+ years to observe behavior since the early days, and there have been many pioneers in the field. For instance, when I introduced positive OC behavior modification techniques to the world of pet bird training, I was cautioned that it wouldn't be likely to work without food deprivation. I didn't/wouldn't take that advice and the advisor (a professional bird trainer) turned out to be very much in error, much to her delight. Deprivation is as unnecessary as the out-moded idea of " total control " , " quick-fix " or " one size fits all " approaches. The same is true of all these " just drug 'em " ideas -- there are many better solutions. I'm grateful for folks like you who help us to learn superior alternatives. Melinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 What physical sensations and thoughts do you now experience when listening to the same Chopin recordings? Mostly when I listen to Chopin I feel a sense of inner peace and beauty. The recordings I most often listen to calm my spirit...taking me away from the chaos of life to a "purer" form of beauty. Even his works that are more turbulent offer me solace for whatever reason. The key reference here is the original "Dianetics" book. I have studied it over the past few years, and have found that the data in the book is accurate. Relying on my interpretation of this data is a very poor third-best choice. Thank you Michael...appreciate your reply. Only read part of that book years ago. Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 This is good advice Michael. I might also point out that Dianetics is the only mental therapy that I know of, which is completely Naturopathic in nature, in that it handles the "CAUSE" of mental aberration. It is also extremely affordable. For the price of a book ($6.95), you can sit down with another person, with the book on your lap, and help them to handle every mental problem there is. As you said, it takes serious study (and I might add, a good dictionary) to really get the data. Love, Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington - Michael Riversong herbal remedies Thursday, December 13, 2001 12:17 PM Re: [herbal remedies] Musical Healing Part 1 What physical sensations and thoughts do you now experience when listeningto the same Chopin recordings?The key reference here is the original "Dianetics" book. I have studied itover the past few years, and have found that the data in the book isaccurate. This included testing the techniques. I also researched how thematerial in the book was developed, including a few interviews with peoplewho knew the author before the book was released, and am very comfortablewith the scientific methods used.In Dianetics, it has been proven that any sounds in the environment thathappen during severe physical trauma, including anything that happens underanesthetic, will cause trouble later on. Although it is a difficult book, iwould highly recommend that interested people read it in order to evaluatethe data for themselves. Relying on my interpretation of this data is avery poor third-best choice.At 08:42 PM 12/11/01 EST, you wrote:>It is not good to use music during treatments which involve intense pain.>This includes situations which involve anesthesia. Music should never be>played during surgery in particular.>>One instance has been found in which music can act as an anesthetic. This>is Tibetan bells used during dental work. More research clearly needs to be>done in this area.>>Just a quick note here. When I had to go for dental work about 4 years ago.. >and was in pretty rough shape... I took a CD with my Chopin recordings on it. >(Who I happen to adore...love to play his music as well as listen) Without >question this helped me get through a very difficult and painful >situation...so I don't understand the above. Also...why should music not be >played during surgery.. are you referring to when a patient is totally >unconscious? Can you elaborate or send me a reference?>>Thanks Beth-- Michael Riversong ** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 The original copyright date on "Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental Health" was May 1950 and is considered to be "Book One" on the subject. However, "Dianetics, The Original Thesis" was first published in 1948 and was the preliminary work. L. Ron Hubbard studied human behavior and mental aberration, from direct observation of primitive tribes to direct research in mental institutions, from about 1926 until 1948 when he published his first work on the subject (as above). I don't know if he studied Skinner's material or not, or vice versa whether Skinner studied Hubbard. These are possibilities. Love, Doc Ian "Doc" Shillington N.D.505-772-5889Dr.IanShillington > In any event, this substratum goes a long way towards resolving a lot of problems such as the ones you so ably analyze here. Partly what i see happening here is that you managed to restate someof the ideas that are contained in the original Dianetics book.What was the original copyright date on that, Michael? L. Ron Hubbard must have studied Skinner's work, then, as I doubt he was involved in that depth of scientific study on behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Thanks, Doc and Michael. Sounds interesting... I'll have to check it out. Melinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Thanks. It is difficult to discuss Dianetics on any list, because of some past controversies. But i do know that besides Freud, who the author acknowledged, you simply won't find any good data on this subject previous to the release of that book -- at least not in a useful form. You notice i don't mention Pavlov, or give him much credibility overall. I know a lot of behaviorist psychologists subsequent to him built on that work, but what really turns me off is the serious Communist agenda that Pavlov was promoting. So i simply don't refer to him, and i notice that the author of Dianetics has a lot of negative things to say about him as well. I very much agree with you that Dianetics is Naturopathic at its core. At 08:58 PM 12/16/01 -0700, you wrote: >This is good advice Michael. I might also point out that Dianetics is >the only mental therapy that I know of, which is completely Naturopathic >in nature, in that it handles the " CAUSE " of mental aberration. It is >also extremely affordable. For the price of a book ($6.95), you can sit >down with another person, with the book on your lap, and help them to >handle every mental problem there is. As you said, it takes serious >study (and I might add, a good dictionary) to really get the data. > >Love, > >Doc > >Ian " Doc " Shillington N.D. >505-772-5889 >Dr.IanShillington -- Michael Riversong ** Professional Harpist, Educator, and Writer ** RivEdu ** Phone: (307)635-0900 FAX (413)691-0399 http://home.earthlink.net/~mriversong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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