CFS/FIBROMYALGIA QUESTIONS.

[Guest guest]

I HAVE A QUESTION THAT MIGHT HAVE ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED IN THIS GROUP

BUT I CAN'T FIND THE ANSWER SO I'LL GO AHEAD AND ASK IT ANYWAY.

 

WHAT HERBS AND HOMEOPATHIC REMEDIES CAN BE USED TO TREAT CHRONIC

FATIGUE AND FIBROMAYAGIA? WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T? IS THERE ANY

DATA OUT THERE IN CYBERWORLD THAT PROVES THAT THE METHOD REALLY WORKS?

 

I KNOW THAT CFS AND FMS IS REALLY HARD TO TREAT SINCE MOST HMO's DON'T

ACCEPT CFS AND FMS AS MEDICAL CONDITIONS, RATHER MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES

BECAUSE THERE'S NO REAL TEST THAT CAN BE DONE TO DIAGNOSE THE PROBLEMS

ASSOCIATED WITH THE DISORDERS.

 

SO SORRY FOR THE LONG EMAIL, BUT I JUST GOT DIAGNOSED ABOUT A MONTH AGO

AND I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT ALL I CAN ABOUT THESE SYNDROMES AND

TREATMENT OPTIONS OUT THERE THAT MY DSHS MEDICAL INSURANCE WILL PAY FOR.

 

THANKS FOR YOUR TIME

HEATHER LIEBER

[Guest guest]

type in from fatigued to fantastic in search and it will take you to Dr. Teitelbaums site. He has fibromyalgia and has dedicated his life to treating it. He also has a book, that my rheumatologist told me to buy. I count this as one of the most important resources. Devyn Starvynol (also M.D. who has it ) has a website and a great book out. The FMS website is also valuable in researching alternative treatments Take care of yourself. MaryHeather <recordings19 wrote:

I HAVE A QUESTION THAT MIGHT HAVE ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED IN THIS GROUP BUT I CAN'T FIND THE ANSWER SO I'LL GO AHEAD AND ASK IT ANYWAY.WHAT HERBS AND HOMEOPATHIC REMEDIES CAN BE USED TO TREAT CHRONIC FATIGUE AND FIBROMAYAGIA? WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T? IS THERE ANY DATA OUT THERE IN CYBERWORLD THAT PROVES THAT THE METHOD REALLY WORKS? I KNOW THAT CFS AND FMS IS REALLY HARD TO TREAT SINCE MOST HMO's DON'T ACCEPT CFS AND FMS AS MEDICAL CONDITIONS, RATHER MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES BECAUSE THERE'S NO REAL TEST THAT CAN BE DONE TO DIAGNOSE THE PROBLEMS ASSOCIATED WITH THE DISORDERS.SO SORRY FOR THE LONG EMAIL, BUT I JUST GOT DIAGNOSED ABOUT A MONTH AGO AND I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT ALL I CAN ABOUT THESE SYNDROMES AND TREATMENT OPTIONS OUT THERE THAT MY DSHS MEDICAL INSURANCE WILL PAY FOR.THANKS FOR YOUR TIMEHEATHER

LIEBER********************************************* Peacefulmind.com Sponsors Alternative Answers-HEALING NATURALLY- this is the premise of HOLISTIC HEALTH. Preventative and Curative measure to take for many ailments at:http://www.peacefulmind.com/ailments.htm__________-To INVITE A FRIEND to our healing community, copy and paste this address in an email to them:http://www.health./subs_invite _________To ADD A LINK, RESOURCE, OR WEBSITE to Alternative Answers please Go to: http://www.health./links___________Community email addresses:Post message: Subscribe: - Unsubscribe:

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[Guest guest]

---on the fibro issue lookinto this

 

Tackling fibromyalgia

This is an article touching upon some of the most powerful healing

principles we know about .

I do quite a bit of research into various different ailments over

many years and will share this info with you and I also practice

spiritual healing .

 

The only promise being made quite clear here is that these things

mentioned- can be a major influence in treating the ailment.

 

A total cure might very well center around a thing called karma/

forgiveness.

 

As well as that we have our own web site where it is possible to

research quite a few healing principles and therapies. The therapies

and principles have been in use for thousands of years; a lot

emerged from ancient Egypt.

 

We have many testimonies and some research papers and can also

point you to links to other research studies indicating some remark

able results.

 

It is called the Orion project. We make the point quite clear that

we sell nothing health related or make any charge for the healing,

which comes through.

 

We actively share information, much of which has been suppressed or

not actively promoted.

 

We only promote good health this is not spam neither are we

promoting products , we leave it up to u to evaluate the material we

present we have tried this and can vouch for some excellent results.

 

WE do not advertise anything

 

There are quite a few points to consider one of which is why if

this is so good as you say why are we not being told about it. Why

indeed?

Well I am going to tell you about something that maybe less than 1%

of the population even understand.

 

The answer –vested interest and quite a bit of apathy and scientific

arrogance.

 

There are a few very important points that I would like to cover on

the subject of drugs and research and treatment At present the

system in England is this, all treatment recommended by the NHS

should be tested and approved and quite rightly so. Obviously it

costs vast sums of money to test and approve treatments because of

the possible damage to people and the subsequent litigation costing

millions of pounds. The point is this Where does this money come

from to test and approve treatments?

 

By far the biggest source is the drug companies.

 

So take for example a researcher might go along to his local drug

company and tell them his findings about this treatment he has been

working on which is of outstanding value but needs testing further

or approving, you might think they would be falling over themselves

to know more –right, you could not be more wrong.

 

By and large only treatments, which show the promise of good deal of

a profit, will even get examined.

 

Because they are in business to make a profit, not for serving the

people.

 

So many of the thousands of therapies which they see as having no

profit potential do not get approved and thus by and large do not

get recommended by your local doctor or hospital.

 

Despite The fact that some of them do have overwhelming benefits

some, which have saved needless operations, needless amputations,

needless pain and trauma, needless kidney failures and much loss of

life.

 

This will apply to any country where most research is being done by

drug companies –

 

they would probably laugh in your face if you went there with a

promising therapy which was so cheap anyone could get it.

 

Do you really think they would invest thousands of pounds in any

therapy which did not show the promise of good profit.

 

Your local G.P/ doctor is not a researcher,

 

in the main he is told what to prescribe he does not even have the

time often to look at research.

 

In fact some G.P .s doctors have had action taken against them for

prescribing supplements.

 

At this minute 2004 approx 5000 Beds are being taken up by people

in the UK who have had adverse reactions to drugs. Some will die

others will be maimed .A serious amount of suffering is taking place

on a scale that makes some wars look like a minor infringement. That

is a fact

 

So Mr/Mrs patient in 99% of the time because of this system you will

probably only get recommended drugs.

 

Primarily because of deliberate government policy not to fund

research into other therapies.

 

Have you heard your local doctor recommend, Massage, Spiritual

healing, Knieisiology Herbs, Light therapy, Colour therapy,

Regression therapy, Osteopathy, Zappers, Magnetic devices,

Electrical Frequency devices.

 

Has he ever mentioned the power of nutrition what you eat how much

protein, carbo, vitamins, water you take in etc.

 

Has he ever recommended a detox ..

 

All of these have shown their inherent worth with thousands if not

millions of testimonials.

 

As you can see this system in its present state is inherently

flawed, that is

 

Until the day comes when most of the research and testing is done

by an agency with no vested interests attached and a very clear

agenda of being objective. Acting for the people. Printing and

revealing all results good and bad.

 

What also clouds the issue further is the fact that some of these

drugs work well but that is not to say that there isn't something

more natural better.

 

The apathy and scientific arrogance we will leave to another time.

Moving on to a more positive note .One of the biggest problems we

see when giving this material is that a lot of people do not have

good evaluation skills. They rely on a white coat, a hospital

building, the sound of a persons voice to sway their thinking into

accepting treatments when they are ill. Like lambs they are taken

down paths some of which will lead them into untold suffering .

 

Of course this is what some of these drug companies rely on the vast

sums of money which can be generated are enormous.

 

So as the wise among you will see a little investment in time over

your health could be a very wise move indeed. Well we move now along

to our little protocol the principles of which will apply to many

other health problems as well.

 

EDGAR CAYCE'S PERSPECTIVE ON FIBROMYALGIA

During Edgar Cayce's era it was commonly called muscular rheumatism.

Several individuals with this diagnosis received readings on their

condition.

 

OVERVIEW OF THERAPEUTIC REGIME

The treatments recommended in the Cayce readings on fibromyalgia are

mainly directed toward improving the digestive, circulatory,

nervous, and eliminating systems.

 

Diet, moderate exercise, a mild form of energy medicine (Radial

Appliance), spinal manipulations and general massage, colon

irrigation, and castor oil packs are therapies intended to improve

these vital systemic functions.

 

As was typical of Cayce's holistic approach, the mental and

spiritual aspects of therapy were emphasized.

Here are the basic therapies recommended for the treatment of

fibromyalgia based on the Cayce information on this disorder:

All people are advised to get The Edgar Cayce Handbook for Health

through Drugless therapy by Hugh Lynn Cayce Harold Reilly and Ruth

Hagy Brod ISBN 0-02-601960-4 Harold reillys 43 years of experience

of working with the research the results he, got the treatments he

gave- a very valuable book

 

These are the principles we can only try to empasise the importance

of every one of them to your health

 

1. INTERNAL CLEANSING: Hydrotherapy includes drinking six to eight

glasses of pure water daily, colonic irrigations (preferably) or

enemas, and a cleansing diet of fresh fruits and vegetables.

Sometimes even a sweat bath was recommended

 

2.Castor oil packs across the abdomen are recommended to improve

eliminations through the liver and colon. Mild laxatives may be

helpful if constipation is a problem. Fume baths assist with

elimination of toxins through the skin.

 

3.MANUAL THERAPY (SPINAL MANIPULATION AND MASSAGE): Osteopathic or

chiropractic treatment is recommended to relieve any pressures that

may be hindering circulation and decreasing eliminations. This is

vital , your spine and its nerve pathways can have an enormous

influence on how you feel and the functioning of your body. The

Cayce readings contain many very complimentary comments about

osteopathy of that day, such as: " There is no form of physical

mechanotherapy so near in accord with nature's measures as correctly

given osteopathic adjustments. "

 

 

4. Gentle massage is suggested to relax the body and improve

circulation and eliminations. Firstly find someone to massage your

back and legs at least 3 times a week

Use peanut oil or a mix of 50-50 olive and peanut oil. Paying

particular attention to the spine and choose someone who is sympathy

with your condition. It is by no mere chance that massage has been

around for thousands of years .It is effective speeds up the toxic

removal process, enables blood to flow to many more capillaries and

can be a major factor in your well being. We advocate massage on a

weekly basis as a normal healthy practice.

 

Here are some reported benefits of massage:

Research in massage therapy has been ongoing for more than 120

years.

Here are some reported benefits of massage:

 

Preliminary results suggested cancer patients had less pain and

anxiety after receiving therapeutic massage at the James Cancer

Hospital and Research Institute in Columbus, Ohio.

 

Women who had experienced the recent death of a child were less

depressed after receiving therapeutic massage, according to

preliminary results of a study at the University of South Carolina

Medical school students at the University of Medicine and Dentistry

of New Jersey-New Jersey Medical School who were massaged before an

exam showed a significant decrease in anxiety and respiratory rates.

as well as a significant increase in white blood cells and natural

killer cell activity, suggesting a benefit to the immune system

 

 

Studies funded by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) have found

massage beneficial in improving weight gain in HIV-exposed infants

and facilitating recovery in patients who underwent abdominal

surgery. At the University of Miami School of Medicine's Touch

Research Institute, researchers have found that massage is helpful

in decreasing blood pressure in people with hypertension,

alleviating pain in migraine sufferers and improving alertness and

performance in office workers.

An increasing number of research studies show massage reduces heart

rate, lowers blood pressure, increases blood circulation and lymph

flow, relaxes muscles, improves range of motion, and increases

endorphins (enhancing medical treatment). Although therapeutic

massage does not increase muscle strength, it can stimulate weak,

inactive muscles and, thus, partially compensate for the lack of

exercise and inactivity resulting from illness or injury. It also

can hasten and lead to a more complete recovery from exercise or

injury.

 

Research has verified that:

 

Office workers massaged regularly were more alert, performed better

and were less stressed than those who weren't massaged.

 

Massage therapy decreased the effects of anxiety, tension,

depression, pain, and itching in burn patients.

 

Abdominal surgery patients recovered more quickly after massage.

Premature infants who were massaged gained more weight and fared

better than those who weren't.

Autistic children showed less erratic behavior after massage therapy.

 

According AMTA, massage helps both physically and mentally.

 

" Often times people are stressed in our culture. Stress-related

disorders make up between 80-and-90 percent of the ailments that

bring people to family practice physicians. What they require is

someone to listen, someone to touch them, someone to care. That does

not exist in modern medicine.

 

One of the complaints heard frequently is that physicians don't

touch their patients any more. Touch just isn't there. Years ago

massage was a big part of nursing. There was so much care, so much

touch, so much goodness conveyed through massage. Now nurses for the

most part are as busy as physicians. They're writing charts, dealing

with insurance notes, they're doing procedures and often there is no

room for massage any more.

 

I believe massage therapy is absolutely key in the healing process

not only in the hospital environment but because it relieves stress,

it is obviously at the foundation in the healing process any time

and anywhere. "

 

Joan Borysenko - Massage Journal Interview, Fall 1999

 

Physical Benefits of Therapeutic Massage

Massage also provides another therapeutic component largely absent

in today's world: tactile stimulation, or, more simply, touch. In

1986, the Touch Research Institute at the University of Miami

published groundbreaking research on the effects of massage on

premature babies.

 

The preterm babies who received massage therapy showed 47% greater

weight gain and six-day shorter hospital stays than the infants who

were not receiving massage. But is this study evidence of what

loving touch can do spiritually, or rather what massage can do on a

physiological level? Regardless, babies are not the only benefactors

 

Helps relieve stress and aids relaxation

 

Helps relieve muscle tension and stiffness. Alleviates discomfort

during pregnancy

 

Fosters faster healing of strained muscles and sprained ligaments;

reduces pain and swelling; reduces formation of excessive scar

tissue.

 

Reduces muscle spasms. Provides greater joint flexibility and range

of motion.

 

Enhances athletic performance; Treats injuries caused during sport

or work.

 

Promotes deeper and easier breathing Improves circulation of blood

and movement of lymph fluids.

 

Reduces blood pressure. Helps relieve tension-related headaches and

effects of eye-strain.

 

Enhances the health and nourishment of skin Improves posture.

 

Strengthens the immune system. Treats musculoskeletal problems.

 

Rehabilitation post operative Rehabilitation after injury.

(Source: AMTA

 

Mental Benefits of Massage Therapy

 

Fosters peace of mind Promotes a relaxed state of mental alertness.

 

Helps relieve mental stress Improves ability to monitor stress

signals and respond appropriately.

 

Enhances capacity for calm thinking and creativity Emotional

Benefits.

 

Satisfies needs for caring nurturing touch Fosters a feeling of well

being.

 

Reduces levels of anxiety Creates body awareness Increases awareness

of mind-body connection.

 

5. DIET: The Basic Cayce Diet is intended to improve assimilation

and elimination. The diet focuses heavily on keeping a proper

alkaline/acid balance while avoiding foods which produce toxicity

and drain the system. Essentially, the diet consists mainly of

fruits and vegetables while avoiding fried foods and refined

carbohydrates ( " junk food " ). Certain food combinations are

emphasized.

 

 

 

6.ENERGY MEDICINE: In addition to the above therapies which will

tend to improve circulation, the Radial Appliance is recommended to

further assist in increasing relaxation and nervous system

coordination. Edgar Cayce said that this appliance would be helpful

for anyone having problems with disturbed sleep and fatigue.the

radial appliance can be bourght from many outlets mainly in the usa

across the internet.this device was recommended hundereds of times

for all sorts of problems .i have a fact sheet on this

 

7MEDICINE: A ginseng tonic is recommended to improve digestion and

eliminations. Small dosages of beef juice are recommended for

persons who experience significant fatigue and lack of vitality.

 

 

8.MODERATE EXERCISE: Walking or other moderate exercise is

recommended. Be outdoors in the open as much as possible.

 

9.ATTITUDES AND EMOTIONS: The mental and emotional aspects of

healing are frequently discussed in the Cayce readings.

Particularly, an attitude of desiring and expecting to be healed is

important. A positive mental and emotional attitude and can be

created and maintained by focusing on a high purpose (ideal) for

being healed.

 

10. Ensure you do at least I hr per day some kind of voluntary

work especialy in some health related way- when you are able. Now

this touches on a concept where by contributing something to other

peoples welfare it is hoped that the universe will respond by

offsetting some of the not so good things we have done. I have a

whole paper devoted to this subject called karma. I will send a copy

of this to you – just e-mail me. Called karma

I believe that this could be a real key needing total importance in

treating many ailments, Edgar cayce devoted many hours to this very

topic, and there are many references to it in the bible. The wise

among you will consider this very carefully

 

11. Spiritual healing, Reiki, find a good healer - but someone you

feel an attunement with at a soul level otherwise you can have

negative results making your situation worse. We are know witnessing

one of the great turnings in our century where old healing practices

are re-emerging such as Reiki healing, Colour healing, Seichim,

Spiritual healing, Osteopathy, Massage and many others.

 

Some of these are thousands of years old, Spiritual healing is one

of those. It is exactly the same kind of energy used by Jesus in so

many of his healings.

 

Put simply Spiritual Healing, Reiki is the transference of certain

energies through a channel which could be a person or an animal or

even the planet, the wavelengths of this healing energy are well

outside the limits of most scientific equipment but a lot of people

can feel this energy .

 

The energy in my experience has been very uplifting and beautiful

which can touch and vastly influence parts of us such as the spirit

or soul or our mental selves and our physical selves. It can bring a

steadiness and balance and sense of well-being second to none .Its

limits as to its use are in the realms of the infinite.

 

A very simplistic analogy would be to liken it to a massive energy

reservoir which can be tapped into by people and animals which act

as the conduits of this energy and like wires of electricity some of

which are bigger than others and so therefore big wires can transmit

more energy than smaller wires.

 

Bearing this point in mind the reader can soon appreciate that going

to one healer can be vastly different than going to another as it is

with so many things whether it be dentists, doctors, policeman or

what have you.

 

Spiritual Healing is natural healing energy, which is present in

this universe. Spiritual healers work in many different ways to some

it is the laying on of hands onto a person or animal, to others it

can be sent through the power of thought. To be even in the presence

of some healers can have a profound and beneficial effect on people

and one wishes that there were more people giving off just as

beautiful vibrations as these people were this world would truly

transform it.

 

12. study the book -the journey ISBN 0-7225-3839-1

from this web site , http://www.thejourney.com/ this person

with the aid of the principles outlined clearly in the book -cleared

herself from a cancer growth the size of a football in 6 weeks .I

believe these same principles could be applied to a lot of

conditions with positive results.

 

*FIBROMYALGIA LINKED TO IBS*

 

The Edgar Cayce readings consistently maintain that problems in the

bowel can produce systemic conditions. A recent medical study echoes

this theme.

 

Researchers at the Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, Los

Angeles,California may have discovered a simple test that links

fibromyalgia (acondition manifesting as muscle pain) with irritable

bowel syndrome (orIBS, a condition involving abdominal pain,

bloating, and diarrhea).

 

The lactulose breath test (LBT) is used to assess for the presence

of microbes in the bowel in cases of IBS. Some previous studies have

found that nearly one-third of fibromyalgia patients also have IBS.

 

The study, published in the Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases

(April2004), explored the hypothesis that LBT would be abnormal in

both IBS and fibromyalgia patients. The researchers recruited 42

fibromyalgia patients, 111 IBS patients, and 15 healthy control

subjects who were

given the LBT.

 

All the patients with fibromyalgia exhibited abnormal LBT results

compared to 84 percent in the IBS group and 20 percent in the

control group. Furthermore, the amount of hydrogen gas detected in

the LBT correlated with the level of pain in the fibromyalgia

patients.

 

The researchers noted that further studies would be needed to

determine if treatment and normalization of the LBT with antibiotics

can produce improvement in fibromyalgia symptoms.

Further information on other therapies and other ailments will be

found at my web site. Go to

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/seventhmoon/orion/ Please feel free to

copy and distribute to your friends. You can e-mail me if you want

more info on the Edgar cayce principles or specific info on some of

the major complaints he dealt with such as cancer, ms etc. just e

mail pho

 

 

cfs somethig that seems to help

obviously checking your thyoid comes to mind ensuring correct amouts

are being secreted

 

a holiday

also this has helped me very much

The orion project is for the Sharing of information . This

information some of which has actively been submerged by vested

interest parties more concerned with profit rather than your

health .

Following the principles outlined in the Orion project will lead you

to real wealth=health.

 

Dealing with any illness is not easy at all and having been through

a fair bit I would like to share with you an energy which has been

life saving .

Earth energy

All I ask you to do is to explore this subject with an open

mind .Our dear planet called mother earth is truly alive I mean if

you can just think for a few moments of all the creations which

spring forth from her .She possesses fantastic creative energy which

we can tap into consciously and truly benefit from immensely .I mean

just think how big she is how wide and look at just one tiny field

and wonder at all the plants which spring forth from her .thousands

of plants springing forth utilising the earths dynamic creative

power.

 

Now think as you sit perhaps in those houses made of what, dead

material ,bricks concrete ,plaster etc etc. As part of us is indeed

spiritual it is often that part which needs feeding ,when in these

houses we are cut off from energies which we truly need.

Why do you think edgar cayce mentions Sunshine , being outside so

much we can even use the prana in the wind from the air the sea

etc.

Why do so many of us go on holiday to where the sea and the

mountains these are power sources which we need to tap into and

these charge our batteries

So I hope with this little meditation to connect you with mother

earth and feel just how truly beautiful this energy can be .

 

Often through out the year I have to live within a tent with my back

against mother earth .Even just s a few days inside the house seems

to take from me, so I need this energy often. I would not be without

my tent it is that important.

 

Just laying outside on the grass will gain you much ,but you can

have much more than this .Would advise all to get a tent and spend

the night out there .

Now the meditation part

Imagine as you lay outside merging yourself with the spirit of the

earth, deep down within the centre , picture in your imagination the

centre of the earth feel the unity with its spirit which it is

possible to have with her and yes to many people you may gain more

unity through this than with your actual partner but I wont go into

that.

 

Some of you may talk to her and bless her and have a true feeling

of appreciation and thankfullness for all the beautiful things she

brings forth to help and aid us .Think of this as a true

relationship which you are building for truly it is .As you merge

your self with her listen for the sound of her –that means shut

your thoughts for yourself out for the moment and just listen to

her and feel. Its ok to fall asleep in fact that would be nice for

you.

For those of you who still have a twinkle in your eye, making love

with a partner on the earth is realy something else , try it .

From this union I have felt the most wonderful energy and upliftment

and much more energy throughout the days. It has brought me through

many many problems and energy deficits

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In , " Heather "

<recordings19@h...> wrote:

> I HAVE A QUESTION THAT MIGHT HAVE ALREADY BEEN ANSWERED IN THIS

GROUP

> BUT I CAN'T FIND THE ANSWER SO I'LL GO AHEAD AND ASK IT ANYWAY.

>

> WHAT HERBS AND HOMEOPATHIC REMEDIES CAN BE USED TO TREAT CHRONIC

> FATIGUE AND FIBROMAYAGIA? WHAT WORKS AND WHAT DOESN'T? IS THERE

ANY

> DATA OUT THERE IN CYBERWORLD THAT PROVES THAT THE METHOD REALLY

WORKS?

>

> I KNOW THAT CFS AND FMS IS REALLY HARD TO TREAT SINCE MOST HMO's

DON'T

> ACCEPT CFS AND FMS AS MEDICAL CONDITIONS, RATHER MENTAL HEALTH

ISSUES

> BECAUSE THERE'S NO REAL TEST THAT CAN BE DONE TO DIAGNOSE THE

PROBLEMS

> ASSOCIATED WITH THE DISORDERS.

>

> SO SORRY FOR THE LONG EMAIL, BUT I JUST GOT DIAGNOSED ABOUT A

MONTH AGO

> AND I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT ALL I CAN ABOUT THESE SYNDROMES AND

> TREATMENT OPTIONS OUT THERE THAT MY DSHS MEDICAL INSURANCE WILL

PAY FOR.

>

> THANKS FOR YOUR TIME

> HEATHER LIEBER