Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Howdy Susan, I wanna say this about that. First .. it is my personal opinion that this list should NOT be totally non commercial .. few of us who are in the business of selling products have the time or desire to educate others because we have some Mother Theresa complex. Pro Bono effort takes us away from doing business and anyone who is successful in this business knows that you can't do it right without putting in 80-100 hours a week. I have said all of this off line to the moderators many times for many years now .. but the list owner makes the rules so as much as I think they are dead wrong .. I am obliged to abide by those rules or go somewhere else. Secondly .. there is some validity to the comments that allowing discussion on schools and such is sorta like allowing discussion on suppliers .. sorta I say. Discussion against Young Living has never been prohibited .. and discussion against some schools has not been allowed. In the first case .. YL is a known con group that practices and preaches unsafe use of EO. In the second case .. schools who claim to do all things right but are obviously not doing them right are going to generate some discussion. Discussing either of the above is something like a public service. Being a moderator when there are fine line rules for a group requires one to have the Wisdom of Solomon .. having fine line rules is always gonna generate disagreement .. some of it valid disagreement. However .. I will support the moderators in their desire to preclude this group from becoming a forum for judging suppliers in general .. because just as at least 49% of voters are wrong in democractic elections .. folks are gonna be wrong on evaluating some suppliers. Personal relations (as is probably the situation in your case) and lack of knowledge when it comes to judging quality (which is common in this industry) can be the drivers behind such judgments. I think that this issue would not have come up if you had not come on with a claim that the company you support has outstanding products that are guaranteed to not rust, bust or collect dust. When folks make such claims they better have their ducks in line. That claim obviously upset some folks who felt they had been shafted by that company and now you are posting an attempt to stop such discussion. Your post was not necessary because the List Moderators have already said such discussion would not be allowed. > > Ya know she is right~ I've seen suppliers rip people off > > repeatedly if there's no Discussion on list~ for those that are > > new I think it's more than fair~< > ATFE , " SUSAN " <sueapito wrote: > Not only is it not fair, it's illegal. When you defame someone > they can sue you. I have a lotta years in law enforcement and after retirement worked in corporate contract law. Spent a lotta time in court rooms I did. Of course folks can sue ... folks can claim they ran off the road and crashed their car cause a dude on the sidewalk was so ugly he distracted them .. YL could have sued me and dozens of other folks many times over .. I have challenged them to do this but they didn't want to wash their dirty laundry in public. Bringing on a frivilous lawsuit and getting it into court is two different things and if it does make it to court getting a judgment in favor of the plantiff is another thing too. Folks saying they got a bad product from a company is NOT grounds for a legitimate lawsuit and any lawyer who is not an ambulance chaser will admit this. So threats of lawsuits is bovine pelosi. Again .. though I think the moderators are wrong for not allowing a weekly advertisement from folks I would not like to see this News Group turned into a Supplier Feed Back forum. There is such a forum on .. I have monitored it for many years now but because nobody has ever badmouthed our company .. I only posted a couple of times. Supplier_Feedback I deleted the remainder of your post because I personally thought it was frivilous information. Folks can read it if they want to. I will be retired retired from this industry soon. In the many years that I have written to News Groups I understand that a lot of what I and others wrote on quality assurance was like peeing in the wind .. but before I check out of the net I will post one thing on Hydrosols that I hope folks will NEVER forget ... its so simple yet few folks pay attention to it. I will post this later .. right now I am gonna go trout fishing for a few hours. Y'all have a nice Sunday .. and keep smiling. :-) Butch ... http://www.AV-AT.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Thank you Butch - much more eloquent than me Liz On 21 February 2010 18:35, Butch <butchowen wrote: > > > Howdy Susan, > > I wanna say this about that. > > First .. it is my personal opinion that this list should NOT be totally non > commercial .. few of us who are in the business of selling products have the > time or desire to educate others because we have some Mother Theresa > complex. Pro Bono effort takes us away from doing business and anyone who is > successful in this business knows that you can't do it right without putting > in 80-100 hours a week. I have said all of this off line to the moderators > many times for many years now .. but the list owner makes the rules so as > much as I think they are dead wrong .. I am obliged to abide by those rules > or go somewhere else. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2010 Report Share Posted February 22, 2010 I agree most of what Butch says. This non commercial idea is a minefield. However, when people come on this group claiming certain suppliers, schools or whatever are wonderful, when some of us know this is not true, then we should be able to say so. I don't care if they are not on the group, people should have a public medium to warn other people of their experiences. Customer to supplier contact only covers problems as no other customers get to hear about them. Young Living have been castigated on this and other groups many times. There are many others out there who are just as much con artists but not such successful ones, so why draw a distinction between one outfit and another? To the above the same holds true for political correctness. All it has ever done is allow con artists to flourish in this trade because so many are scared to use harsh words about them. Martin ATFE , " Butch " <butchowen wrote: > > Howdy Susan, > > I wanna say this about that. > > First .. it is my personal opinion that this list should NOT be totally non commercial .. few of us who are in the business of selling products have the time or desire to educate others because we have some Mother Theresa complex. Pro Bono effort takes us away from doing business and anyone who is successful in this business knows that you can't do it right without putting in 80-100 hours a week. I have said all of this off line to the moderators many times for many years now .. but the list owner makes the rules so as much as I think they are dead wrong .. I am obliged to abide by those rules or go somewhere else. > > Secondly .. there is some validity to the comments that allowing discussion on schools and such is sorta like allowing discussion on suppliers .. sorta I say. Discussion against Young Living has never been prohibited .. and discussion against some schools has not been allowed. In the first case .. YL is a known con group that practices and preaches unsafe use of EO. In the second case .. schools who claim to do all things right but are obviously not doing them right are going to generate some discussion. Discussing either of the above is something like a public service. > > Being a moderator when there are fine line rules for a group requires one to have the Wisdom of Solomon .. having fine line rules is always gonna generate disagreement .. some of it valid disagreement. > > However .. I will support the moderators in their desire to preclude this group from becoming a forum for judging suppliers in general .. because just as at least 49% of voters are wrong in democractic elections .. folks are gonna be wrong on evaluating some suppliers. > Personal relations (as is probably the situation in your case) and lack of knowledge when it comes to judging quality (which is common in this industry) can be the drivers behind such judgments. > > I think that this issue would not have come up if you had not come on with a claim that the company you support has outstanding products that are guaranteed to not rust, bust or collect dust. When folks make such claims they better have their ducks in line. That claim obviously upset some folks who felt they had been shafted by that company and now you are posting an attempt to stop such discussion. Your post was not necessary because the List Moderators have already said such discussion would not be allowed. > > > > Ya know she is right~ I've seen suppliers rip people off > > > repeatedly if there's no Discussion on list~ for those that are > > > new I think it's more than fair~< > > > ATFE , " SUSAN " <sueapito@> wrote: > > Not only is it not fair, it's illegal. When you defame someone > > they can sue you. > > I have a lotta years in law enforcement and after retirement worked in corporate contract law. Spent a lotta time in court rooms I did. Of course folks can sue .. folks can claim they ran off the road and crashed their car cause a dude on the sidewalk was so ugly he distracted them .. YL could have sued me and dozens of other folks many times over .. I have challenged them to do this but they didn't want to wash their dirty laundry in public. > > Bringing on a frivilous lawsuit and getting it into court is two different things and if it does make it to court getting a judgment in favor of the plantiff is another thing too. Folks saying they got a bad product from a company is NOT grounds for a legitimate lawsuit and any lawyer who is not an ambulance chaser will admit this. > > So threats of lawsuits is bovine pelosi. Again .. though I think the moderators are wrong for not allowing a weekly advertisement from folks I would not like to see this News Group turned into a Supplier Feed Back forum. > > There is such a forum on .. I have monitored it for many years now but because nobody has ever badmouthed our company .. I only posted a couple of times. > > Supplier_Feedback > > I deleted the remainder of your post because I personally thought it was frivilous information. Folks can read it if they want to. > > I will be retired retired from this industry soon. In the many years that I have written to News Groups I understand that a lot of what I and others wrote on quality assurance was like peeing in the wind .. but before I check out of the net I will post one thing on Hydrosols that I hope folks will NEVER forget ... its so simple yet few folks pay attention to it. I will post this later .. right now I am gonna go trout fishing for a few hours. > > Y'all have a nice Sunday .. and keep smiling. :-) > > Butch ... http://www.AV-AT.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 > I don't care if they are not on the group, people should have a public medium to warn other people of their experiences. Customer to supplier contact only covers problems as no other customers get to hear about them. > > Young Living have been castigated on this and other groups many times. There are many others out there who are just as much con artists but not such successful ones, so why draw a distinction between one outfit and another?< If you feel so strongly about that, why not form your own social networking site where you make the rules and YOU are the one that can be sued if someone doesn't like what you publish. I guess I just don't feel like the moderators here should have to bear that responsibility. People do book reviews, restaurant reviews, etc and they are PUBLIC, so the author or restaurant owner has the opportunity to make themself aware and rebutt the statements if they so choose. This is a private list. If for example, Martin, you got banned and we all went on to express opinions about your business and your ethics, your potential customers here might see an unbalanced viewpoint on your business. I think what I see missing are facts. Stating a FACT about a vendor or supplier is different than saying all these companies are scam artists being run by mobsters. Statements like that serve no purpose. They don't help a person develop a considered opinion. I get into WAY more heated debates than anything I have ever seen on any aromatherapy group (even Anya's which I was banned from a LONG time ago) whenever the topic of homeopathy comes up. I see the same type of abusive language so maybe that is why my back gets up whenever I read it. If by contrast, Martin, you posted about specifics backed by science. Like, this company teaches XYZ about this essential oil and these scientific test prove that what they are teaching is inaccurate...THEN a critique of a company/school/supplier becomes a learning experience instead of just a bashing. We post about Young Living with specifics; listing the statements about Gary's education which have been proven to be lies; safety information backed by science contrasted to their harmful practices, etc. It's not just " he's an ass and his salespeople are con artists " . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 I'm not including specifics in this post, but I am suggesting people go to <http://tinyurl.com/yclhfc7> http://tinyurl.com/yclhfc7 to see DoTerra's legal counsel's response to my blogpost and my reply to him. You can add your comments there, and you are welcome to repost the article and comments as far and wide as you want. Thanks, Be Well, Marcia Elston, Samara Botane/Nature Intelligence http://www.wingedseed.com <http://www.wingedseed.com/> http://www.wingedseed.blogspot.com <http://www.wingedseed.blogspot.com/> http://www.aromaconnection.org <http://www.aromaconnection.org/> " We make a living by what we get. We make a life by what we give. " - Winston Churchill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 >If by contrast, Martin, you posted about specifics backed by science. >Like,this company teaches XYZ about this essential oil and these >scientific test prove that what they are teaching is >inaccurate...THEN a critique of a company/school/supplier becomes a >learning experience instead of just a bashing. I guess you can't read anything I write as in my web site articles are very specific comments on certain web sites and teachers. Also, it is a shame this group archive got deleted as there were specific posts on specific suppliers and web sites with specific backup. >we all went on to express opinions about your business and your >ethics, your potential customers here might see an unbalanced >viewpoint on your business. I am way past worrying about my business. My only interest now is letting newbies know they are involved with a trade that is one of the most corrupt I have ever come across, and they should not believe a fraction of what is published on the subject. >Stating a FACT about a vendor or supplier is different than saying >all these companies are scam artists Again you clearly can't read or absorb what you read. I have never said ALL aromatherapy suppliers are con artists, just a large proportion. Believe me I could name names and give facts about many, but that would definitely get me banned and could cause problems for the list owners. Being sued - bring it on. Never been done in all the years I have said strong things on these groups - I wonder why? Martin ATFE , " SUSAN " <sueapito wrote: > > > I don't care if they are not on the group, people should have a public medium to warn other people of their experiences. Customer to supplier contact only covers problems as no other customers get to hear about them. > > > > Young Living have been castigated on this and other groups many times. There are many others out there who are just as much con artists but not such successful ones, so why draw a distinction between one outfit and another?< > > If you feel so strongly about that, why not form your own social networking site where you make the rules and YOU are the one that can be sued if someone doesn't like what you publish. > > I guess I just don't feel like the moderators here should have to bear that responsibility. > > People do book reviews, restaurant reviews, etc and they are PUBLIC, so the author or restaurant owner has the opportunity to make themself aware and rebutt the statements if they so choose. > > This is a private list. If for example, Martin, you got banned and we all went on to express opinions about your business and your ethics, your potential customers here might see an unbalanced viewpoint on your business. > > I think what I see missing are facts. Stating a FACT about a vendor or supplier is different than saying all these companies are scam artists being run by mobsters. Statements like that serve no purpose. They don't help a person develop a considered opinion. > > I get into WAY more heated debates than anything I have ever seen on any aromatherapy group (even Anya's which I was banned from a LONG time ago) whenever the topic of homeopathy comes up. I see the same type of abusive language so maybe that is why my back gets up whenever I read it. > > If by contrast, Martin, you posted about specifics backed by science. Like, this company teaches XYZ about this essential oil and these scientific test prove that what they are teaching is inaccurate...THEN a critique of a company/school/supplier becomes a learning experience instead of just a bashing. > > We post about Young Living with specifics; listing the statements about Gary's education which have been proven to be lies; safety information backed by science contrasted to their harmful practices, etc. It's not just " he's an ass and his salespeople are con artists " . > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 I haven't been a member of the group for very long...joined up hoping to learn something from some of you who've been in the biz longer than I have been. I expected to find helpful information about the oils and their uses and about the business at large. Not that there has been no useful information at all, but I have seen more disagreements among the group than anything so far, and not friendly disagreements, at that. I am reading lots of anger, some one-upmanship and even, unbelievably, name calling in some of these posts. A far cry from productive debate and discussion. Maybe I joined the wrong group? Would you advise me to find a group that is geared more toward the practitioner? Or maybe just forget it and go back to reading books? It's been my experience that organizations (a most deceptive descriptive pronoun)eventually breed chaos amongst themselves. Knowing that, I have made it a life long priority to not join them. I was hoping that wouldn't be the case here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 Hi Deborah, Thank you for your letter.Believe me, the list moms began this list with people like you in mind, our goal is to share knowledge and there are many amazing members here who love to help. You will note that with dignity, they are holding back at present, and for this I thank them. Sadly I am watching all that we have built spiral out of control, and with threats of lawyers and name calling etc, I am thinking along the same lines as you. This group began nearly 12 years ago, it was started by Vanessa from Fielding in New Zealand, Stacey came on board and then I joined a little later. We were later joined by Christine and Liz, who are amazing. We are not fighters, we are all people who believe in this group and what it represents. At present it seems that the group has become a battlefield. My opinion is, if you want a group that does as you so wish, then do what we did and start one. We are doing what we believe is right. If you stop and think, we have lost some wonderful members through disharmony, and I have had enough. I want to help people like Deborah, and with respect, I am sure that others do too. We are adults and I suggest we start acting like adults. Jeanine- who has had enough On 24/02/2010, at 9:03 AM, Deborah T Smith wrote: > I haven't been a member of the group for very long...joined up hoping to > learn something from some of you who've been in the biz longer than I have > been. I expected to find helpful information about the oils and their uses > and about the business at large. Not that there has been no useful > information at all, but I have seen more disagreements among the group than > anything so far, and not friendly disagreements, at that. I am reading lots > of anger, some one-upmanship and even, unbelievably, name calling in some > of these posts. A far cry from productive debate and discussion. > Maybe I joined the wrong group? Would you advise me to find a group that > is geared more toward the practitioner? Or maybe just forget it and go back > to reading books? > It's been my experience that organizations (a most deceptive descriptive > pronoun)eventually breed chaos amongst themselves. Knowing that, I have > made it a life long priority to not join them. I was hoping that wouldn't > be the case here. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 ATFE [ATFE ] On Behalf Of Deborah T Smith Tuesday, February 23, 2010 12:04 PM ATFE Re: Supplier Feedback I haven't been a member of the group for very long...joined up hoping to learn something from some of you who've been in the biz longer than I have been. Welcome. Maybe you could ask some specific questions, or post your own thoughts about something to begin a topic of your liking. There are usually several threads, but it is true sometimes the conversation can drift into what might appear to be unrelated topics. All in all, this is a great group, mostly friendly. Some of us oldtimers do call each other names, but we've known each other going on 20 years or so and we tolerate one another. Unless it is aimed at you, don't take it personally. :-)Be Well, Marcia Elston, Samara Botane/Nature Intelligence http://www.wingedseed.com http://www.wingedseed.blogspot.com http://www.aromaconnection.org " We make a living by what we get. We make a life by what we give. " - Winston Churchill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 >and you are welcome to repost the article and comments > as far and wide as you want. Thank you Marcia, for your research and especially for inviting people to share the information instead of copywrite protecting it! That shows a lot of class!! OH...and love the new look for the Blog! Really nice and clean and easy to navigate! Sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 >My only interest now is letting newbies know they are involved with a trade that is one of the most corrupt I have ever come across< Well good luck with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2010 Report Share Posted February 24, 2010 I too feel the same way. Anne ATFE , Deborah T Smith <t_smith wrote: > > I haven't been a member of the group for very long...joined up hoping to > learn something from some of you who've been in the biz longer than I have > been. I expected to find helpful information about the oils and their uses > and about the business at large. Not that there has been no useful > information at all, but I have seen more disagreements among the group than > anything so far, and not friendly disagreements, at that. I am reading lots > of anger, some one-upmanship and even, unbelievably, name calling in some > of these posts. A far cry from productive debate and discussion. > Maybe I joined the wrong group? Would you advise me to find a group that > is geared more toward the practitioner? Or maybe just forget it and go back > to reading books? > It's been my experience that organizations (a most deceptive descriptive > pronoun)eventually breed chaos amongst themselves. Knowing that, I have > made it a life long priority to not join them. I was hoping that wouldn't > be the case here. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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