Guest guest Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 (You may get this twice - first sent 25 mins ago and not yet on list so re sending ) 1) This is just a friendly reminder to all members that ATFE is a **totally* non commercial area. That means we don't discuss/name suppliers on list - for good or bad. This was a policy introduced way back when the original ATFE was formed and one which we have stuck to in the newly formed group. We realise this can make things a little difficult at times, but it avoids slanging/slagging matches and self promotion. 2) PLEASE note the following from your introduction letter, and abide by it " Disagreements with other members opinions are fine and can be educational, but let's not get personal or nasty. " Thank you Liz for The list Mom's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Liz, if we can't talk about suppliers, and I do apologize for slipping in on the MR thread, I had forgotten talk of suppliers is verboten here, why all the bashing of schools allowed? There's a big disconnect with the rule if that is allowed. I vote that all discussion of schools, individuals, suppliers, et al be banned to be fair. We've seen how often these discussions erupt into ad hominem attacks here. All my best, http://NaturalPerfumers.com on FB http://bit.ly/iamja Guild on FB http://bit.ly/1jP5lB ATFE-owner wrote: > (You may get this twice - first sent 25 mins ago and not yet on list so re sending ) > > 1) This is just a friendly reminder to all members that ATFE is a **totally* non commercial area. That means we don't discuss/name suppliers on list - for good or bad. This was a policy introduced way back when the original ATFE was formed and one which we have stuck to in the newly formed group. We realise this can make things a little difficult at times, but it avoids slanging/slagging matches and self promotion. > > 2) PLEASE note the following from your introduction letter, and abide by it > > " Disagreements with other members opinions are fine and can be educational, but let's not get personal or nasty. " > > Thank you > Liz > for The list Mom's > > > > --- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Anya wrote: I vote that all discussion of schools,individuals, suppliers, et al be banned to be fair. We've seen how often these discussions erupt into ad hominem attacks here. If discussion of suppliers, schools, etc are completely banned how are those of us that haven't been " in the know " for the past 20yrs going to gain additional insight. Information and personal experience have the potential of aiding others in making better decisions and moving forward without having to completely re-invent the wheel. Isn't there a way to strike a better middle-ground of having the discussions without the twisting of knickers? Jessica, NC Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Well, let's all talk abut the weather then. So, let's recap: - talking about schools= no.no - talking about sources of oils pros and cons = no no ( why not?? I just remember that I bought lavander hydrosol from the " same source " and it was awfull...) - talking brutally honest = nono ( oh my God, we would pull some feathers ...) .... we would become a very boring bunch. .... what is this??? communism??? respectfully to all Marta > ATFE > familymassage > Sat, 20 Feb 2010 23:23:32 +0000 > Re: Notice to Members/ Please read > > Anya wrote: > I vote that all discussion of schools,individuals, suppliers, et al be banned to be fair. We've seen how often these discussions erupt into ad hominem attacks here. > > > If discussion of suppliers, schools, etc are completely banned how are those of us that haven't been " in the know " for the past 20yrs going to gain additional insight. Information and personal experience have the potential of aiding others in making better decisions and moving forward without having to completely re-invent the wheel. > > Isn't there a way to strike a better middle-ground of having the discussions without the twisting of knickers? > > Jessica, NC > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > --- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Ya know she is right~ I've seen suppliers rip people off repeatedly if there's no Discussion on list~ for those that are new I think it's more than fair~ Just my .02 Sindy ATFE@ Notice to Members/ Please read Well, let's all talk abut the weather then. So, let's recap: - talking about schools= no.no - talking about sources of oils pros and cons = no no ( why not?? I just remember that I bought lavander hydrosol from the " same source " and it was awfull...) - talking brutally honest = nono ( oh my God, we would pull some feathers ....) ..... we would become a very boring bunch. .... what is this??? communism??? respectfully to all Marta > ATFE > From : Notice to Members/ Please read > > Anya wrote: > I vote that all discussion of schools,individuals, suppliers, et al be banned to be fair. We've seen how often these discussions erupt into ad hominem attacks here. > > > If discussion of suppliers, schools, etc are completely banned how are those of us that haven't been " in the know " for the past 20yrs going to gain additional insight. Information and personal experience have the potential of aiding others in making better decisions and moving forward without having to completely re-invent the wheel. > > Isn't there a way to strike a better middle-ground of having the discussions without the twisting of knickers? > > Jessica, NC > Sent on the SprintR Now Network from my BlackBerryR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 > Ya know she is right~ I've seen suppliers rip people off repeatedly if there's no Discussion on list~ for those that are new I think it's more than fair~< Not only is it not fair, it's illegal. When you defame someone they can sue you. The party in question is not here to defend themself. For example, we have no idea whether a vendor sells a hydrosol and includes a statement saying the product needs to be refridgerated, and the buyer left it in a warm room and it spoiled. Or a vendor sells a hydrosol, which most professional people know has very little scent, and the buyer complains because it doesn't smell enough, or as they expected. Unless there are facts to back up statements, it's not legal to publicize statements like these. You say a product had bacteria, you need to prove you cared for it in the correct manner AND provide lab tests to document what bacteria was growing. Quoted from Toronto based attorney Antonin I. Pribetic " Generally, the torts of libel and slander consist of the publication of words or matter containing defamatory imputations against a person which diminishes his or her reputation. To succeed in an action for libel (publication of defamatory material in permanent form) or slander (defamatory statements communicated by spoken words or other transitory form–audible or visible—such as significant sounds, looks, signs or gestures), a plaintiff must prove: (i) the words are defamatory; (ii) the words were published, and (iii) the plaintiff is the person who was defamed. Anyone who republishes a defamatory statement, or facilitates its publication to the public (electronic or otherwise), may be liable for per se damages for injury to reputation ( and subject to an injunction (a court order enjoining or prohibiting continued republication, such as ordering a webmaster to remove the alleged defamatory postings) and adverse cost consequences. " Many online discussion lists and social networking sites have Terms of Service statements which outline how one may go about making a complaint public. Usually they have to document the specifics of the situation; what they did to attempt to resolve the situation; and offer an opportunity for the other party to respond. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 For anyone who wishes to read them ToS are linked at the bottom of each group email - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2010 Report Share Posted February 22, 2010 Dear ATFE After sending a response to an email posted, I realized after it was sent....I really should of not sent it. My apologies. I think this is a great forum for discussion and look forward to sharing ideas and information about the aromatic world. Best Regards, Alysia ________________________________ " ATFE-owner " <ATFE-owner > ATFE Sun, February 21, 2010 10:39:50 AM Re: Notice to Members/ Please read For anyone who wishes to read them ToS are linked at the bottom of each group email - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 22, 2010 Report Share Posted February 22, 2010 On the flip side of this, many excellent suppliers have been banned from other lists and have no way to counter or defend themselves when someone bad mouths them there. Out in the real world, there is the BBB or you can verify the legal aspects of any business through their state Secretary's office. Or, you can always contact someone you've met who on a list who you think might be helpful privately to discuss this. Scrutinize their websites; do they offer adequate and factual information, etc. How long have they been on the web? Lots of ways to skin a cat. Re: education. Anya brings up a point to consider, however, this list has always been a place to discuss educational standards and question dubious books, websites, as well as individual aromatherapy educators. Not sure you can always get the kind of information from other more traditional means (BBB, etc. above). So, I see this as a bit different. Be Well, Marcia Elston, Samara Botane/Nature Intelligence http://www.wingedseed.com <http://www.wingedseed.com/> http://www.wingedseed.blogspot.com <http://www.wingedseed.blogspot.com/> http://www.aromaconnection.org <http://www.aromaconnection.org/> " We make a living by what we get. We make a life by what we give. " - Winston Churchill _____ ATFE [ATFE ] On Behalf Of Sindy Anderson Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:20 PM ATFE RE: Notice to Members/ Please read Ya know she is right~ I've seen suppliers rip people off repeatedly if there's no Discussion on list~ for those that are new I think it's more than fair~ Just my .02 Sindy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2010 Report Share Posted February 23, 2010 At 03:57 AM 2/22/2010, you wrote: >Quoted from Toronto based attorney Antonin I. Pribetic > > " Generally, the torts of libel and slander consist of the publication of >words or matter containing defamatory imputations against a person which >diminishes his or her reputation. To succeed in an action for libel >(publication of defamatory material in permanent form) or slander >(defamatory statements communicated by spoken words or other transitory >formaudible or visible—such as significant sounds, looks, signs or >gestures), a plaintiff must prove: > >(i) the words are defamatory; >(ii) the words were published, and >(iii) the plaintiff is the person who was defamed. > >Anyone who republishes a defamatory statement, or facilitates its >publication to the public (electronic or otherwise), may be liable for per >se damages for injury to reputation ( and subject to an injunction (a >court order enjoining or prohibiting continued republication, such as >ordering a webmaster to remove the alleged defamatory postings) and >adverse cost consequences. " > >Many online discussion lists and social networking sites have Terms of >Service statements which outline how one may go about making a complaint >public. Usually they have to document the specifics of the situation; >what they did to attempt to resolve the situation; and offer an >opportunity for the other party to respond. and since have archives, things said here are considered published... am thinking that certain group members who have a long history of defaming certain businesses might well be subject to a (or several) lawsuits.... Since 1995 - supplying Aromatherapy and Healthcare Professionals Website: http://www.naturesgift.com Blog: http://naturesgiftaromatherapy.blogspot.com/ Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NaturesGift Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2010 Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 I just want to say a word about the BBB. They are not what a lot of people think they are. They are a racket. I got a call last year from a lady identifying herself as from the BBB and stating that some " people " had called them expressing interest in my website and products, but because I didn't have the BBB logo on my site they felt uncomfortable buying from me. So I asked how I would get the logo and of course, it was for a fee. Like $350. I told her I would think about it. She pushed me saying people won't feel safe buying from my website. That's when I got suspicious. I researched them and found other business owners in different states got the same spiel. One man did a search of Walmart and Lowes in his neighborhood. The Walmart had a B rating although they had a number of complaints against them which showed as all resolved, the Lowes had an F, but there were no complaints. He found out the Walmart was a member, but the Lowes wasn't. Another complaint I found was from a woman who was scammed by a telemarketing company and she became angry that the BBB listed them with an A rating because they had bought a membership. She had based her decision to buy from them on the BBB rating, but after she was scammed, she went to Scam Alert and found a number of complaints similar to hers. The BBBs are privately run and they are not associated with the government in any way. If you become a member, you cannot guarantee that you will be adequately warned against someone with subpar products or even scams. At the same time, you may have someone with good products but because they aren't a member, may have a low rating. Just something to think about. Chaeya ATFE , " Marcia Elston " <Marcia wrote: > > On the flip side of this, many excellent suppliers have been banned from > other lists and have no way to counter or defend themselves when someone bad > mouths them there. Out in the real world, there is the BBB or you can > verify the legal aspects of any business through their state Secretary's > office. Or, you can always contact someone you've met who on a list who you > think might be helpful privately to discuss this. Scrutinize their > websites; do they offer adequate and factual information, etc. How long > have they been on the web? Lots of ways to skin a cat. > > Re: education. Anya brings up a point to consider, however, this list has > always been a place to discuss educational standards and question dubious > books, websites, as well as individual aromatherapy educators. Not sure you > can always get the kind of information from other more traditional means > (BBB, etc. above). So, I see this as a bit different. > > Be Well, > Marcia Elston, Samara Botane/Nature Intelligence > http://www.wingedseed.com <http://www.wingedseed.com/> > http://www.wingedseed.blogspot.com <http://www.wingedseed.blogspot.com/> > http://www.aromaconnection.org <http://www.aromaconnection.org/> > " We make a living by what we get. We make a life by what we give. " - Winston > Churchill > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2010 Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 What does BBB stand for? Fiona Australia - Chaeya ATFE Saturday, February 27, 2010 2:59 PM Re: Notice to Members/ Please read I just want to say a word about the BBB. They are not what a lot of people think they are. They are a racket. I got a call last year from a lady identifying herself as from the BBB and stating that some " people " had called them expressing interest in my website and products, but because I didn't have the BBB logo on my site they felt uncomfortable buying from me. So I asked how I would get the logo and of course, it was for a fee. Like $350. I told her I would think about it. She pushed me saying people won't feel safe buying from my website. That's when I got suspicious. I researched them and found other business owners in different states got the same spiel. One man did a search of Walmart and Lowes in his neighborhood. The Walmart had a B rating although they had a number of complaints against them which showed as all resolved, the Lowes had an F, but there were no complaints. He found out the Walmart was a member, but the Lowes wasn't. Another complaint I found was from a woman who was scammed by a telemarketing company and she became angry that the BBB listed them with an A rating because they had bought a membership. She had based her decision to buy from them on the BBB rating, but after she was scammed, she went to Scam Alert and found a number of complaints similar to hers. The BBBs are privately run and they are not associated with the government in any way. If you become a member, you cannot guarantee that you will be adequately warned against someone with subpar products or even scams. At the same time, you may have someone with good products but because they aren't a member, may have a low rating. Just something to think about. Chaeya ATFE , " Marcia Elston " <Marcia wrote: > > On the flip side of this, many excellent suppliers have been banned from > other lists and have no way to counter or defend themselves when someone bad > mouths them there. Out in the real world, there is the BBB or you can > verify the legal aspects of any business through their state Secretary's > office. Or, you can always contact someone you've met who on a list who you > think might be helpful privately to discuss this. Scrutinize their > websites; do they offer adequate and factual information, etc. How long > have they been on the web? Lots of ways to skin a cat. > > Re: education. Anya brings up a point to consider, however, this list has > always been a place to discuss educational standards and question dubious > books, websites, as well as individual aromatherapy educators. Not sure you > can always get the kind of information from other more traditional means > (BBB, etc. above). So, I see this as a bit different. > > Be Well, > Marcia Elston, Samara Botane/Nature Intelligence > http://www.wingedseed.com <http://www.wingedseed.com/> > http://www.wingedseed.blogspot.com <http://www.wingedseed.blogspot.com/> > http://www.aromaconnection.org <http://www.aromaconnection.org/> > " We make a living by what we get. We make a life by what we give. " - Winston > Churchill > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2010 Report Share Posted February 27, 2010 Better Busines Bureau On Fri, Feb 26, 2010 at 10:45 PM, cooredulla <cooredulla wrote: > > > What does BBB stand for? > Fiona > Australia > > - > Chaeya > ATFE <ATFE%40> > Saturday, February 27, 2010 2:59 PM > Re: Notice to Members/ Please read > > I just want to say a word about the BBB. They are not what a lot of people > think they are. They are a racket. I got a call last year from a lady > identifying herself as from the BBB and stating that some " people " had > called them expressing interest in my website and products, but because I > didn't have the BBB logo on my site they felt uncomfortable buying from me. > So I asked how I would get the logo and of course, it was for a fee. Like > $350. I told her I would think about it. She pushed me saying people won't > feel safe buying from my website. That's when I got suspicious. I researched > them and found other business owners in different states got the same spiel. > > > One man did a search of Walmart and Lowes in his neighborhood. The Walmart > had a B rating although they had a number of complaints against them which > showed as all resolved, the Lowes had an F, but there were no complaints. He > found out the Walmart was a member, but the Lowes wasn't. Another complaint > I found was from a woman who was scammed by a telemarketing company and she > became angry that the BBB listed them with an A rating because they had > bought a membership. She had based her decision to buy from them on the BBB > rating, but after she was scammed, she went to Scam Alert and found a number > of complaints similar to hers. > > The BBBs are privately run and they are not associated with the government > in any way. If you become a member, you cannot guarantee that you will be > adequately warned against someone with subpar products or even scams. At the > same time, you may have someone with good products but because they aren't a > member, may have a low rating. > > Just something to think about. > > Chaeya > > ATFE <ATFE%40>, " Marcia Elston " > <Marcia wrote: > > > > On the flip side of this, many excellent suppliers have been banned from > > other lists and have no way to counter or defend themselves when someone > bad > > mouths them there. Out in the real world, there is the BBB or you can > > verify the legal aspects of any business through their state Secretary's > > office. Or, you can always contact someone you've met who on a list who > you > > think might be helpful privately to discuss this. Scrutinize their > > websites; do they offer adequate and factual information, etc. How long > > have they been on the web? Lots of ways to skin a cat. > > > > Re: education. Anya brings up a point to consider, however, this list has > > always been a place to discuss educational standards and question dubious > > books, websites, as well as individual aromatherapy educators. Not sure > you > > can always get the kind of information from other more traditional means > > (BBB, etc. above). So, I see this as a bit different. > > > > Be Well, > > Marcia Elston, Samara Botane/Nature Intelligence > > http://www.wingedseed.com <http://www.wingedseed.com/> > > http://www.wingedseed.blogspot.com <http://www.wingedseed.blogspot.com/> > > > http://www.aromaconnection.org <http://www.aromaconnection.org/> > > " We make a living by what we get. We make a life by what we give. " - > Winston > > Churchill > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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