Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Could be Yin deficiency with heat. Does that make sense in the context? On Dec 3, 2003, at 9:40 AM, gabe gabe wrote: > Hi I need some help with the clarification of this term, I found it in > Unschuld’s learn to read Chinese > > But when I look at the PD it was no where to be found. shen re bing, > Ki heat disease. > > I would greatly appreciate any clarification with this term. thanks > > Gabe > > > > > > > > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I found shen re bing, Kidney heat disease, in the zhong yi da ci dian/Great Dictionary of . It is described as a transformed heat evil that targets the kidney. In the Su Wen, it is described as follows: " Kidney heat disease, at first there is aching lumbar pain, the calves are sore, there is dry mouth and strong thirst without desire to swallow (the liquids) . The (entire) body is hot, the heat causes severe pain, the soles of the feet are hot, and the patient has no desire to speak. " In the Su Wen, kidney heat disease is based on a six channel model for progression of exterior evils to the interior, so it is not a yin vacuity heat pattern. That would be internally generated heat, as opposed to an exterior evil that enters the kidney. On Dec 3, 2003, at 2:42 PM, Al Stone wrote: > Could be Yin deficiency with heat. Does that make sense in the > context? > > On Dec 3, 2003, at 9:40 AM, gabe gabe wrote: > >> Hi I need some help with the clarification of this term, I found it in >> Unschuld’s learn to read Chinese >> >> But when I look at the PD it was no where to be found. shen re bing, >> Ki heat disease. >> >> I would greatly appreciate any clarification with this term. thanks >> >> Gabe >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 I think this pattern is an example of how Chinese medicine has evolved over 2,000 years. Since this pattern is no longer in standard clinical use (as reflected by its absence in any and all contemporary Chinese texts other than dictionaries of which I am aware), I would suggest that experience has determined that it turned out to be not very useful in real-life practice. It would be interesting to find the last reference to it in an important Chinese medical text so that we could get a sense of how many years it has been out of use. I would suggest that it is misguided to think that generations of Chinese have overlooked something truly clinically important. The standardization of patterns in standard professional Chinese medicine is something that occurred in the Qing dynasty and is NOT Maoist/materialist. Most Chinese historians believe that that is the great contribution of the Qing dynasty to CM -- collation and standardization. In my opinion, over-emphasis of the Su Wen and Ling Shu is a species of Golden Agism and is related to Orientalism. (I use these terms in their anthropological-sociological sense. They are not meant as name-calling.) I would further suggest that such tendencies among Western practitioners of CM have more to do with our lack of knowledge about CM and our own culutral needs and biases than anything else. Study the classics? Absolutely! But, with a sense of proportion and perspicacity. Bob , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > I found shen re bing, Kidney heat disease, in the zhong yi da ci > dian/Great Dictionary of . It is described as a > transformed heat evil that targets the kidney. In the Su Wen, it is > described as follows: " Kidney heat disease, at first there is aching > lumbar pain, the calves are sore, there is dry mouth and strong thirst > without desire to swallow (the liquids) . The (entire) body is hot, > the heat causes severe pain, the soles of the feet are hot, and the > patient has no desire to speak. " > > In the Su Wen, kidney heat disease is based on a six channel model for > progression of exterior evils to the interior, so it is not a yin > vacuity heat pattern. That would be internally generated heat, as > opposed to an exterior evil that enters the kidney. > > > On Dec 3, 2003, at 2:42 PM, Al Stone wrote: > > > Could be Yin deficiency with heat. Does that make sense in the > > context? > > > > On Dec 3, 2003, at 9:40 AM, gabe gabe wrote: > > > >> Hi I need some help with the clarification of this term, I found it in > >> Unschuld's learn to read Chinese > >> > >> But when I look at the PD it was no where to be found. shen re bing, > >> Ki heat disease. > >> > >> I would greatly appreciate any clarification with this term. thanks > >> > >> Gabe > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now > >> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Bob, I agree with you. I didn't translate that entry in the dictionary to make any point, just answer the question about shen re bing. Most of the entry is based on a Su Wen quotation, and that is that. It wasn't a flag 'for the classics', just a definition for a technical term no longer in common use. There may be some practitioners who are still using a six channel heat disease model, although obviously the modern SHL six channel pattern differentiation and WB four aspect pattern differentiation are the prevailing approaches now for some time. There is an interesting discussion on use of the Su Wen model in " Clinical Applications of the Yellow Emperor's Canon on Internal Medicine " by Wang Hongtu, from New World Press, in English and Chinese. On Dec 4, 2003, at 8:17 AM, Bob Flaws wrote: I think this pattern is an example of how Chinese medicine has evolved over 2,000 years. Since this pattern is no longer in standard clinical use (as reflected by its absence in any and all contemporary Chinese texts other than dictionaries of which I am aware), I would suggest that experience has determined that it turned out to be not very useful in real-life practice. > In my opinion, over-emphasis of the Su Wen and Ling Shu is a species > of Golden Agism and is related to > Orientalism. (I use these terms in their anthropological-sociological > sense. They are not meant as name-calling.) I would further > suggest that such tendencies among Western practitioners of CM have > more to do with our lack of knowledge about CM and our own > culutral needs and biases than anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Qing dynasty and is NOT Maoist/materialist. Most Chinese historians believe that that is the great contribution of the Qing dynasty to CM -- collation and standardization. >>>How about during Tang and Song as well.Standardized edition of classics and so on Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 I would further suggest that such tendencies among Western practitioners of CM have more to do with our lack of knowledge about CM and our own culutral needs and biases than anything else. Study the classics? Absolutely! But, with a sense of proportion and perspicacity. >>>>I could not agree more, but would have to add that it is also the lack of basic medical training that allows for this romantic search and non critical acceptance of information both modern and old alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Come on , Alon. All I did was, out of curiosity, translate an entry from a Chinese medical dictionary because the term was not in any English sources, and share the results with the CHA. I had no previous idea that the term was from the Su Wen, and was surprised at what I found. How did we get to this? Z'ev Rosennberg On Dec 4, 2003, at 9:58 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > Study the classics? Absolutely! But, with a sense of proportion and > perspicacity. >>>>> I could not agree more, but would have to add that it is also the >>>>> lack of basic medical training that allows for this romantic >>>>> search and non critical acceptance of information both modern and >>>>> old Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 , " Bob Flaws " < pemachophel2001> wrote: > I think this pattern is an example of how Chinese medicine has evolved over 2,000 years. Since this pattern is no longer in standard > clinical use (as reflected by its absence in any and all contemporary Chinese texts other than dictionaries of which I am aware), I > would suggest that experience has determined that it turned out to be not very useful in real-life practice. I > would suggest that it is misguided to think that generations of Chinese have overlooked something truly clinically important. I tend to agree with Bob. If an idea from the classics was never pursued, it must have been because it was not either medically or culturally necesssary. We could argue that abdominal palpation was pursued in Japan out of cultural necessity (practice for the blind) more than any great medical signficance, per se. Not that it is not an effective means of dx, just that TCM in china is not lacking anything without it. Same with nan jing style pulse dx. However that still leaves the possibility that these and other undeveloped concepts or practices may be medically or culturally important in our american practice of CM. Personally, I think that new ideas or revival of old ones occurs when standard methods fail (such as the wen bing school, which in part comes from previously undeveloped ideas in the SHL and nei jing). It is thought this development answered some critical need (medical or cultural). I have little interest in developing discarded ideas unless necessity dictates it. I certainly do not see any of these classics as sacrosanct, just the works of mortal men in an ancient time. So why spend time developing such discarded ideas? Well, arguably ideas such as yin fire and gu syndrome are not prominent in modern TCM texts. While not as obscure as kidney heat disease, still not mainstream. Yet clearly useful. But Bob is correct to suggest we check to see the last time such an idea was actually recorded in major works. Certainly we can find at least a modicum of literature on the less obscure ideas such as yin fire and gu written in recent centuries. I suppose one will only know what inspiration one will receive if one undertakes the task. I find the SHL inspiring, but that's because its so pragmatic and illustrates a lot of ideas in a pithy way. But as time goes on, I have become decidedly less comfortable with some of my earlier musings on the subject, specifically that the six channel theory is implicit in the jin gui yao lue and thus applies to the progression of chronic internal diseases as well. Particularly after learning that the concept of progression of a pathogen through all the stages is not at all explicit anywhere in the SHL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 , " " <zrosenbe@s...> wrote: > Come on , Alon. > How did we get to this? > > >>>>> I could not agree more, but would have to add that it is also the > >>>>> lack of basic medical training that allows for this romantic > >>>>> search and non critical acceptance of information both modern and > >>>>> old My reading of these posts is that the comments made were not directed at anyone in particular, but that Alon's post was merely an agreement with Bob Flaw's general statement about why they think many people are attracted to so-called classical studies. Some people such as Z'ev make the attempt to actually learn chinese and read extensive commentary on this material. Others, perhaps the majority of those with this propensity, are the MSU crowd, who learn about a fanciful idea and without further study begin to read volumes into it. Let's move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 All I did was, out of curiosity, translate an entry from a Chinese medical dictionary because the term was not in any English sources, and share the results with the CHA. I had no previous idea that the term was from the Su Wen, and was surprised at what I found. How did we get to this? >>>>>I was commenting about Bobs response not about your little paragraph. Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 >>>>> old My reading of these posts is that the comments made were not directed at anyone in particular, but that Alon's post was merely an agreement with Bob Flaw's general statement about why they think many people are attracted to so-called classical studies. >>>Correct Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 , " " wrote: > > We could argue that abdominal palpation was pursued in Japan out of cultural > necessity (practice for the blind) more than any great medical signficance, per > se. We could argue this, but your argument would be convincing only if abdominal dx just pertained to acumoxa which has since the 17th century been a vocation for the blind. However, abdominal dx is just as important (if not moreso) in Kampo medicine which has historically been the domain of the sighted. In fact, the Japanese argument is that the Chinese abandoned abdominal palpation for cultural reasons (the characterization is usually that the Chinese are less comfortable with nudity). In any case, i find the underlying assumption that the Japanese are somehow more culture-bound and less pragmatic in their medical practices to be somewhat amusing. Standard Kampo practice today owes much to the reforms initiated by Yoshimasu Todo et al which were largely empirical in nature. Also, don't forget Scheid's discussion on the political processes which led to the TCM patterns we have today. Not everything in TCM is born out of medical and/or cultural necessity. robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Z'ev, " I didn't translate that entry in the dictionary to make any point, just answer the question about shen re bing. " Nor did I say that you did. That's why I didn't address it to you. :-) Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 , " kampo36 " <kampo36> wrote: However, abdominal dx is just > as important (if not moreso) in Kampo medicine which has historically > been the domain of the sighted. In fact, the Japanese argument is > that the Chinese abandoned abdominal palpation for cultural reasons > (the characterization is usually that the Chinese are less > comfortable with nudity). good point, but still a cultural factor, just not the one I speculated. that was meant as a hypothetical, BTW. > > In any case, i find the underlying assumption that the Japanese are > somehow more culture-bound and less pragmatic in their medical > practices to be somewhat amusing. never said that, intended that or believed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 > , " kampo36 " <kampo36> > wrote: > > > > In any case, i find the underlying assumption that the Japanese are > > somehow more culture-bound and less pragmatic in their medical > > practices to be somewhat amusing. > > > never said that, intended that or believed that. In fact, I consider japanese hara and pulse styles to generally be more pragmatic than TCM in that the theorizing tends to be minimized to the bare essentials. Even in kanpo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Thanks for the clarification. the term was not used in a yin xu context, I asked three of my Chinese teachers and non could give me an answer, two of them said the term did not exist the other one said it was a miss translation. thanks. Gabe <zrosenbe wrote: I found shen re bing, Kidney heat disease, in the zhong yi da ci dian/Great Dictionary of . It is described as a transformed heat evil that targets the kidney. In the Su Wen, it is described as follows: " Kidney heat disease, at first there is aching lumbar pain, the calves are sore, there is dry mouth and strong thirst without desire to swallow (the liquids) . The (entire) body is hot, the heat causes severe pain, the soles of the feet are hot, and the patient has no desire to speak. " In the Su Wen, kidney heat disease is based on a six channel model for progression of exterior evils to the interior, so it is not a yin vacuity heat pattern. That would be internally generated heat, as opposed to an exterior evil that enters the kidney. On Dec 3, 2003, at 2:42 PM, Al Stone wrote: > Could be Yin deficiency with heat. Does that make sense in the > context? > > On Dec 3, 2003, at 9:40 AM, gabe gabe wrote: > >> Hi I need some help with the clarification of this term, I found it in >> Unschuld#47977; learn to read Chinese >> >> But when I look at the PD it was no where to be found. shen re bing, >> Ki heat disease. >> >> I would greatly appreciate any clarification with this term. thanks >> >> Gabe >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 Many, many, (dare I say many again) years ago I was taught that approximately 95% of the worlds production of essential oils were for the Flavor and Fragrance Industry and that only 5% of world production was produced for the Medical Industry. My questions are: Was this ever true; if so, does it still hold true and lastly if it is true what is the difference? Thanks, Geraldine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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