Certified Organic ** Or ** The Emperor's New Clothes

[Guest guest]

, Butch Owen <butchbsi@s...> wrote:

> We are not eating the oils .. so is it image we are after? I am still

> convinced and hope to prove it in time .. that distillation is the best

> way pesticides can be efficiently removed .. and I do not believe they

> routinely make it through the distillation process in the first place ..

> though I will back peddle a bit on that and say that there are a few

> illegal (not used in the west) pesticides that are hydrophilic .. I

> think that's the best way to describe them .. and it would take a

> redistillation to totally remove them.

 

Hi Butch:

Three years ago, a few days before he died unexpectedly, John Kerchner

asked if anyone knew if pesticides made it through the distillation

process. I got the answer from my ex, a double-PhD in the Ag sciences,

and yes, they do. I can't find the original post with the exact

scientific terms, and my ex is out of the country right now, (and I

don't want to bother him with the same question :-)

 

IIRC, it has something to do with ions. Negative and positive

something. Nothing to do with hydrophilic properties. Polar was a

keyword, too.

http://anyamccoy.com

[Guest guest]

Lordy, a bulb went off in my dim brain right after I sent the reply

about pesticides. The email I was looking for was in my other

email/name program. Here it is from 6/25/02, within a day of John

dying. I don't think he ever got the reply:

 

 

Ok, John, I had a chance to talk to my ex today, and here are some

responses he had, plua afew more questions:

 

>> Now, I am doing research on patchouli (Pogostemon cablin Benth.).

>As you know, this plant produce essential oil that use as fixative

>>material in perfume industry. Generally, in patchouli cultivation

>several chemical pesticides (such as insecticide, fungicide,

>miticide >etc.) are >used to control pests and diseases. In perfume

>industry, are raw materials (such as patchouli leaves) must be free

>from >pesticide residues?

 

Hi John:

The main things to worry about would be insecticides, and that would

include miticides. I'll discuss fungicides later. Many insecticides

are nonpolar, and they would distill over, and concentrate in

essential oils. In the Third World, DDT is still used, and that is

very oil soluble.

 

On the other hand, if they are using pyrethroids (from

chrysanthemums), they break down in UV light, and would be gone

(probably) by harvest. I brought the waiting period/harvest point up

to my ex, because I know that many insecticides, fungicides, etc.,

mention that they are 'not to be applied sooner than 'x' days before

harvest.' (Often it's seven days).

 

I see the question that your friend only asked about 'residue on the

leaves', not anything about systemic residue inside the plant (another

concern, to me (Anya speaking here). could you have him define why

only the residue on the leaves is a concern? Drift?

 

Ask you friends what compounds are being used, and I will followup.

 

Me speaking now:

Also, ask them to consider natural fungicides -- there are many, from

baking soda solutions to copper sprays. The Cornell University

formula, accepted in the industry for decades, calls for 2 tsp. of

baking soda per gallon of water, and one to two drops of dishwashing

liquid, applied every 10 days. Of course, this recipe can be

multiplied for large crop areas.

 

>> In other word are organic products necessary in perfume industry ?

 

Well, to that question my ex did not have an answer. You would have to

contact the perfume industry reps. I know many in the aromatherapy

industry prefer organic oils, since they are using them

therapeutically, over large areas of the body, in baths, or for

inhalation purposes.

 

>> In connection with organic farming I would like to ask you for

>the possibility to have some publications that I needed in my

>research >especially about the effect of inorganic product on

>perfume industry.

 

Well, as an organic farmer and writer for organic publications, I

would recommend they try to switch over to organic methods -- it will

make their product more saleable overall in the world market. They

could research IPM - Integrated Pest Management - methods first, as

sometimes a fast switch to totally organic is very difficult. In IPM

they would use syn. chemicals *only* when necessary, in an emergency,

in the first year or two until they got to understand the dynamics of

the insect populations and cycles for their crop. AFter that, they

should/might be able to go completely organic.

 

I know that patchouli needs to be grown in semi-shade, under moist

conditions. Often, it is undercropped with coconuts in the South

Pacific. Could you ask your friend if this is the case? I'm concerned

because of the interdynamics with the coconut crop culture.

http://anyamccoy.com

[Guest guest]

Howdy y'all,

 

A slightly modified version of another post I sent to various lists back in

April 2004.

 

****************************************************

 

After Martin's post on Certified Organic .. I want to post the one I

made a week ago to this list .. I think it is IMPORTANT that folks do

not forget what he said and what is below. There are a lot of new folks on this

list .. its growing by the week .. for those of you who have read this before ..

your choice is to hit Delete now. ;-)

 

How long .. are we gonna let the slicky boys blow smoke up our butts?

 

How long .. are we gonna continue to blow smoke up our own butts?

 

If you wanna outdo the family next door you can get a champion bloodline pup

that costs a few thousand .. even though he might be so high strung your kids

can't play with him like they could a mutt. Or you can serve imported wine even

though California and New York produces it as fine as anywhere in the world.

Same goes for purchase of Certified Organic EO.

 

We are not eating the oils .. so is it image we are after? I am still

convinced and hope to prove it in time .. that distillation is the best

inexpensive manner to remove pesticides and I believe most don't routinely make

it through the distillation process in the first place .. though I will back

peddle a bit on that and say that there are a few illegal (not used in the west)

pesticides that are highly hydrophilic and it would take a redistillation to

totally remove them.

 

I'll also add that GC or GC/MS will not always identify pesticides in an EO even

if they are there. The only way it could happen would be if

there was a high concentration and the analyst knew exactly what they wanted to

detect .. and this is NOT the way they are conducted .. nor the reason they are

conducted.

 

Lemme get on my soap box a while and talk about this CO subject.

 

1. A Certificate of Organic Certification is for the Grower Only .. if

he is also the distiller then he can use it but there is no guarantee of a

Certified Organic (CO) Essential Oil .. its only CO for plant material. In fact

... its really Certified for the soil .. not even the plants.

 

2. If you buy from a broker/middle man .. he is probably NOT going to

pass the Certificate along because it will identify his source. Why should you

buy from him again if you can go to the source. If he sanitizes it he can also

manipulate it in other manners.

 

3. Almost all of the Oils from Madagascar were certified by EcoCert ..

ONLY France does business in Madagascar. But if you have followed the

news you'll know that since the beginning of political problems there .. EcoCert

did NOT return .. the French inspectors were very " cautious " . I do believe

that those farmers in Madagascar who had previously earned Certified Organic

status were still trying to maintain it in order to not lose years of difficult

preparation and expense .. and they know that in time the EcoCert teams will

return.

 

But .. who is to say that an oil is Organic or Certified Organic? We

can't prove it .. and that is the reason many folks .. big dealers ..

have abandoned the ratings anyway.

 

The level of self imposed garbage in this industry is extremely high.

Example follows.

 

Certified Organic Absolutes .. many folks sell them .. under the BEST of

conditions .. what does this mean? It means that the aromatics were probably

(maybe?) grown under CO conditions. But declaring an ABSOLUTE as Certified

Organic is sorta dumb .. but still legal. The aromatics were treated with

solvents .. TWICE .. to create an Absolute and we still wind up with a Certified

Organic oil ???

 

Does that make sense? Of course not!! But its the system this industry uses.

It is like creating a monster that survives on bovine excrement and then

creating more bovine excrement to keep the monster alive so he can consume even

more bovine excrement.

 

You will note in my list of oils that most of my oils are Wild Grown. I prefer

Wild Grown .. even to Certified Organic. Why? Because I believe Certified

Organic is too often political it is a long way from being efficient .. and it

is NOT necessary for any distilled product. Distillers know that .. but many

buyers are easily

impressed by " Certified Organic " .

 

For Cold Pressed oils I accept a need for Certified Organic because the oil is

taken from the outer rinds.

 

This is NOT a salad we are eating .. it is a distilled oil and there is no way

to determine if there is a trace of non organic matter in the oil by use of GC

or GC/MS .. it would take a much higher level of testing .. like Chiral Column

... and that costs thousands of dollars so it is NEVER DONE. The entire issue of

Certified Organic EO is hit and miss .. but some buyers in the industry demand

warm fuzzies .. and sellers in the industry are more than willing to baffle

buyers with whatever amount of smoke and mirrors is needed to sell their

products.

 

Anyone who demands only Certified Organic EO is going to have a very

small stash of EO because Certified Organic is not the norm .. its the

exception. I buy it when I can because some customers have become

mesmerized by what they see as the authenticity of CO. I know that a

lot of the CO out and about is certified simply because the grower or

producer is in with the right folks or is paying off the right folks.

 

Any regulatory or inspection organization is as strong as its Weakest

Link .. those weak links are normally due to improper planning and the

fact that they have to hire humans. Oh yea .. and there are also the elements

of politics and greed. Now why did I separate those two elements? Dumb it was

... they are actually the same thing.

 

Ask Martin Watt about the Agencies .. he has investigated and can prove that

there are scams amongst the Certifying Agencies.

 

For veggies for salads, etc., Certified Organic is best but even they

are hard to find Certified. As stated above, this also applies to Cold

or Expeller Pressed Oils. As for distilled oils, I offer Organic and

Wild grown .. but because essential oils contain only non water soluble

components of the plant material in the first place .. I believe heavy metals

have a tough time making it through the distillation process in the second

place.

 

When someone decides to deal with only Certified Organic oils .. three

things can be assured.

 

1. They will pay a lot MORE money for them,

 

2. They will have a very SMALL collection of oils.

 

3. They can NEVER be sure they have CO oils!! Why? Because none of

the agencies certify Essential Oils! Surprised? They certify fields

and sometimes (though not always) plants in the fields .. they don't

bother looking at the oils .. nor could they do it easily even if they

wanted to.

 

This article in a European Scientific Journal touches on the addition of

" normal " oils to oils certified as " organic " .

 

" Many certifying bodies (EcoCert, Soil Association) seemingly rely on

inspection regimes, batch tracking and the separate and secure storage

of organic oils, rather than independently analyzing finished oils for

pesticide levels, a situation inviting abuse by unscrupulous traders.

 

There is also the huge question of 'who inspects the inspectors', the

lack of external expert input into their protocols, and the denial of

free public access to the records of these bodies – but these topics

(and many others) are another issue! The labeling laws seem so lax in

the OE, that an advertising claim on a bottle such as, " contains organic orange

oil " , would not invite prosecution if the oil contained 0.1% organic orange oil

and 99.9% non organically produced orange oil – and who, specifically, is

charged with checking anyway, and who has the necessary expertise?

 

(Snipped a bunch) And so many of us ** feel that the whole organic oils

exercise, although possibly very noble in its intent, is not

particularly watertight. " UNQUOTE

 

And .. Certified Organic is NOT an indication of Quality or Purity.

 

One can certify the fields and the plants but that does not mean that

Mother Nature will allow a good production year .. and it does not keep the

dishonest distiller or broker from mixing cheaper oils in the oils that came

from those plants .. or even from adulterating the oils with cheap, commercial

synthetic chemicals.

 

One can not be certain that ground leakage/seepage, downwind drift, acid rain

and a dozen other natural earth or climatic conditions have not contaminated a

crop.

 

And now there is another climatic condition to worry about .. its called Global

Distillation. All the bad stuff is moving to the North .. depositing itself

there from the Southern Hemisphere. So Yankees .. beware. ;-)

 

Then we have plain old corruption and inefficiency.

 

I have an analysis for all of my oils .. and they are Lot Number controlled. I

am satisfied that they are pure and quality .. and I am satisfied that I am

doing all I can to ensure quality control. But I live in a world of reality ..

not in a world of fantasy. The unfortunate part is .. I work in a world of

fantasy.

 

So .. even with Certified Organic it is Caveat Emptor .. but some people want to

believe the Emperor has new clothes even if he is stark naked.

 

That's my spiel. Y'all keep smiling. :-)

 

Butch ... http://www.AV-AT.com