Guest guest Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Howdy Marcia, We recently had a customer request that I NOT send her green spikenard after placing her online order. Since I have never carried green spikenard, my interest was tweaked and I (of course) Googled to see what she was talking about. I'm surprised to hear that you have never carried Green Spikenard .. its considered to be superior to the Red (commonly from India) and though I have absolutely no experience with the Brown, I have read more than once that the Brown is often adulterated with Valerian root oil. Sometimes I wonder if the Red and the Brown are not the same oil. And, I put my feelers out to a couple of reputable producers, who also appeared to be uninformed about it. I find a plethora of web sites offering it, including one that claims it is steam distilled from the 'resin' of the plant (not the rhizomes as one would expect). Huh? That is hawg warsh .. its distilled from the Dried Rhizomes and Roots. It has the same Latin binomial (Nardostachys jatamansi) on all of these sites as does the non-green version, with no clarification of a varietal difference. In most other instances, when 'green' is indicated, the oil is usually extracted from immature or unripened fruit, i.e., green mandarin. What oil? Green Spikenard? That is also not the case. You say that Nardostachys jatamansi .. which IS Green Spikenard .. has the same botanical name as the " non-green " oil .. and that is a bit confusing because the Indian Red Spikenard is Nardostachys grandiflorum. I would think it highly unlikely that this is distilled from immature rhizomes - what sense would that make? Poorer yield being the primary reason. Dried mature rhizomes and roots are the aromatic that is distilled. > The entire discussion above has confused me .. I think. Probably cause I am surprised that anyone would question Green Spikenard .. its the most common one around. These sellers claim it is from Nepal (one of the reasons it is supposedly superior to what they call 'brown' spikenard from India) - well, most if not all Spikenard is from the Himalayas (Nepal/India). Yes, it is somewhat rare and difficult to find. I have seen Green Spikenard that was not from Nepal .. but most of it is. And true it is that its sometimes hard to find. The locals use a lot of it for medicinal purposes. Some of the sellers I see are ones that raise my eyebrows with regard to other questionable information they proffer on their websites, so I am no hopeful that I'm going to get a good answer on this one. Perhaps you are being too kind when you use the word " Some " of the sellers. ;-) But even those folks can't get it all wrong all the time and I think you have already received a good answer ..from me. ;-) White Lotus and Will Lapaz will most likely agree with what I have written here .. and I'm still surprised that anyone would question Green Spikenard. Who here might know the real skinny on this green spikenard? Is it legit, or is this just another marketing hype for a synthetic or inferior oil? I'm tempted to order some just to msgc it. If I didn't think I was right I would not have replied to this post. ;-) Green Spikenard (Nardostachys jatamansi) is totally legit .. and totally common .. and I have an analysis on our latest batch. For the last 14 years or so I've not offered anything but Green Spikenard. > > Be Well, > Marcia Elston, Samara Botane > http://www.wingedseed.com > http://www.wingedseed.blogspot.com > http://www.aromaconnection.org Yes ma'am .. and you .. and y'all keep smiling. :-) Butch .. http://www.AV-AT.com .. purveyor of all kinds of nice things .. shipped to you from our store/warehouse in Downtown Friendsville, MD .. Pop: 597 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 ________________________________ ATFE2 [ATFE2 ] On Behalf Of Butch Owen Thursday, July 17, 2008 4:25 PM ATFE2 [ATFE2] Green Spikenard I'm surprised to hear that you have never carried Green Spikenard .. its considered to be superior to the Red (commonly from India) and though I have absolutely no experience with the Brown, I have read more than once that the Brown is often adulterated with Valerian root oil. Sometimes I wonder if the Red and the Brown are not the same oil. You say that Nardostachys jatamansi .. which IS Green Spikenard .. has the same botanical name as the " non-green " oil .. and that is a bit confusing because the Indian Red Spikenard is Nardostachys grandiflorum. The entire discussion above has confused me .. I think. Probably cause I am surprised that anyone would question Green Spikenard .. its the most common one around. Hi Butch, Well, you're not quite right here. Taxonomy confusion abounds. It seems that " jatamansi " is the local name for Nardostachys grandiflora in Nepal as well as India. N. jatamansi was considered to be the correct Latin binomial until 1980 when it was discovered that N. jatamansi had been used to describe an entirely different plant, Valeriana jatamansi (which is the Valerian often used to adulterate). Nardostachys jatamansi is currently considered a synonym for N. grandiflora as is N. chinensis. In Pakistan, another common name for N. grandiflora is 'mushkbala'. The CITES reference that Liz posted to the files has a great deal more information that clarifies this confusion. I've done even more research in my reference library. It seems the name 'jatamansi' is adopted directly from the original Sanskrit name of the herb in antiquity. This makes me suspect that the Valerian in question could be V. officinalis. So, it appears that green, red and so-called 'brown' spikenard are all from the same species. With further research, I've found that the distillation color of finished oil varies from amber to deep blue or greenish blue. Now, we all know that different distillers produce a slightly different oil, depending on a lot of conditions (heat, timing, etc.). This could account for the color differences, but I think whoever is making claims that the green is superior is barking up the wrong tree by claiming that it comes from a different species. If it is superior, and I'm certainly not agreeing that it is, I'm sure it's being compared to adulterated or poorly distilled product. Be well, Marcia Elston Samara Botane/Nature Intelligence, est. 1988 http://www.wingedseed.com Online 3/95 http://www.aromaconnection.org Group Blog 2/07 " Historically, the most terrible things - war, genocide and slavery - have resulted from obedience, not disobedience. " Howard Zinn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 So, it appears that green, red and so-called 'brown' spikenard are all from > the same species. With further research, I've found that the distillation > color of finished oil varies from amber to deep blue or greenish blue. > > Now, we all know that different distillers produce a slightly different oil, > depending on a lot of conditions (heat, timing, etc.). This could account > for the color differences, but I think whoever is making claims that the > green is superior is barking up the wrong tree by claiming that it comes > from a different species. If it is superior, and I'm certainly not agreeing > that it is, I'm sure it's being compared to adulterated or poorly distilled > product. Just popped in after some time and found this interesting discussion, that I've often wondered about. I have the Red bought from those rare reputable Indian dealers in India. And the Green is from Eden. After reading that the Green was superior, I have stopped using it in my blends, although I love sniffing it every once in a while. For what its worth, I'll try to describe the scents. The Red is deep reddish brown, a very pleasing (to me) musty, earthy smell, the kind you'd want to sniff again and again, and I've used it as a comfort scent. When dropping into blends, it does not spread readily but forms an inky maroon trail and tints the whole blend. The Green, which many of you may better describe seems to me much sweeter, with a few " floral " notes, and very faintly smells of the Red's mustiness and earthiness at the very end- it seems a more complex smell. The Red is my fave. Most of the oils from this Indian dealer were among the best, some like Tuberose absolute, I havent found a better one. So I would give him the benefit of doubt that it is genuine Spikenard. I've often wondered if it was valerian, but it is not sedative, but calming. Since I understand now that the Green may not be superior, I shall go about using the Red more frequently. Appreciate if any of the experts have something more to say about it. Esther Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 ATFE2 [ATFE2 ] On Behalf Of mommeeof2 Friday, July 18, 2008 5:26 PM ATFE2 [ATFE2] Re: Green Spikenard Just popped in after some time and found this interesting discussion, that I've often wondered about. I have the Red bought from those rare reputable Indian dealers in India. And the Green is from Eden. After reading that the Green was superior, I have stopped using it in my blends, although I love sniffing it every once in a while. For what its worth, I'll try to describe the scents. The Red is deep reddish brown, a very pleasing (to me) musty, earthy smell, the kind you'd want to sniff again and again, and I've used it as a comfort scent. When dropping into blends, it does not spread readily but forms an inky maroon trail and tints the whole blend. The Green, which many of you may better describe seems to me much sweeter, with a few " floral " notes, and very faintly smells of the Red's mustiness and earthiness at the very end- it seems a more complex smell. The Red is my fave. Most of the oils from this Indian dealer were among the best, some like Tuberose absolute, I havent found a better one. So I would give him the benefit of doubt that it is genuine Spikenard. I've often wondered if it was valerian, but it is not sedative, but calming. Since I understand now that the Green may not be superior, I shall go about using the Red more frequently. Appreciate if any of the experts have something more to say about it. Esther Hi Esther, I spent time examining our own stock after my curiosity sent me to post to the list . . . Should have done this in the first place. I usually keep several ounces from each batch of anything we get in [those oils that will mature nicely and not oxidize] to have a variety to use at the blending bar. Our current stock for sale on the website is a Nepalese that is quite lovely, with high floral/green notes and the earthiness/agrestic quality I would expect . . . And it is GREEN, a beautiful emerald green. And, on the blending bar I also have a lovely red from India that is less bright, more similar to musk, earthy/woody/musty and it is a deep, dark burgundy red. They are different, but I would hesitate to claim one was superior; they each would have their place. These are both Nardostachys grandiflora, aka N. jatamansi. If spikenard is being cut with valerian root oil, I can hardly imagine that it would pass as true spikenard to anyone with a reasonably trained nose. Valerian root is so distinctively the odor of " old socks' - I mean those you wore in your hiking boots while hiking Mt. Rainier for a week - surely no one with any experience with spikenard would ever accept this, but it certainly is possible that the novices could be duped, but I rather doubt they would like the odor all that much. The spikenards do have somewhat similar patchouli/vetiver-like characteristics, but if you've had valerian root oil [or even the herb] before, you'll know what I mean; it is a very pervasive odor. So, I went back and reviewed some of the research again . . . There is yet another plant. Patrinia scabiosaefolia, that possibly has been confused with the Nardostachys chinensis and both have origins in the Himalayas of China. The P. scabiosaefolia has entirely different leaf structure than N. grandiflora (red/pink flowers) or N. chinensis (yellow flowers) and its leaf appearance is closer to that of Valeriana officinalis. This could possibly lead to more accurate information about what might be used to adulterate spikenard instead of or in addition to Valerian. And, with regard to the re-naming of Nardostachys jatamansi in 1980 . . . It is renamed grandiflora because of 'big' flowers [this is what the Latin 'grandiflora' or 'grandiflorum' represents], rather than the traditional 'officinalis'. Of course, not everyone (even distillers and especially those in remote regions) keep up with the botanical classifiers' frequent reclassification. For certain, however, Nardostachys jatamansi is Nardostachys grandiflora; they are one and the same species. My curiosity still revving, I consulted Tony Burfield's Natural Aromatic Materials: Odours & Origins . . . The only spikenard he covers is the Chinese, N. sinensis [chinensis] which he describes as orange-yellow in color, woody-earthy, somewhat patchouli-like with just a hint of unpleasant Valerian character. Comparing the Chinese with the Nepalese [not identified in his notes by Latin binomial], however, he found the Nepalese to be cruder [less refined notes], rooty-woody and LESS evidence of the Valeriac note. He states the Chinese oil dry-down was less powerful but sweeter than the Nepalese. So, does this mean that the Chinese spikenard is more likely to be the one to be adulterated? My experience with China is probably biased because of many of the really bad samples I've been sent from Chinese producers . . . But Tony finds the Chinese to be sweeter . . . And most here have said that the Nepalese is sweeter. Hmmmm. Just goes to show you'll never get the same odor qualification from a bunch of different noses. If I pursue this further, and find any contradictions or really great revelations, I'll add more . . . Be well, Marcia Elston Samara Botane/Nature Intelligence, est. 1988 http://www.wingedseed.com Online 3/95 http://www.aromaconnection.org Group Blog 2/07 " Historically, the most terrible things - war, genocide and slavery - have resulted from obedience, not disobedience. " Howard Zinn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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