Re fake Linden absolute

[Guest guest]

Some of you may have seen the message on the 'NaturalPerfumery' group

about the detection of an adulterated Linden absolute sold by two

suppliers. I happen to know both suppliers, and can tell you that

both Butterbur and Sage (UK) and Natures Gift (USA) have always tried

to get good quality oils and extracts. That includes paying for

analysis of their oils. Most aromatherapy type suppliers do not dip

their hands in their pocket for that cost. It is very costly to

analyse absolutes, so most smaller suppliers cannot afford it and

accept their suppliers word. My past boss always refused to analyse

them as they tended to clog up the innards of his GLC machine.

 

If some of you recall, a couple of weeks ago, i posted a message about

the name 'natural perfumery' and that many here were unknowingly using

adulterated oils and absolutes, yet calling themselves 'natural

perfumers'.

 

The instance above is just another example of what a corrupt industry

the supply of natural extracts is and has always been. I know that

the supposed Linden extract came from a large French fragrance

supplier. BBS (UK) only resold it as a favour to someone who said

they were into making perfumes, and BBS had no idea that it would re

sold. They withdrew this extract from general sale long ago, along

with other similar extracts that they did not want to sell to therapists.

 

I am informed neither vendor has any record of either Anya or her

spokesperson (Janita) having ordered their linden absolute, therefore,

it came via another middleman and who knows what could have been done

on route. Therefore, the demands on the other group to 'not buy any of

this extract from the UK supplier' are stupid AS IT IS NOT ON GENERAL

SALE. The person the UK supplier thinks they sold it to is one of the

many middlemen in the trade who will say; " this is too expensive have

you got a cheaper one " . A perennial problem that one, but anyone with

a knowledge of the aromatics trade should know they will not get the

unadulerated article. If they do not understand that, then they are

amateurs and not the expert suppliers like they mislead their

customers to believe.

 

To make matters worse, I have known Bernie Hephrun of Butterbur and

Sage for over 20 years, he is now in his 80s and not in good health.

He was one of the first in the UK to try and get a standard system

that the aromatherapy trade would accept of 'AROMARK' analysis

certification for all their essential oils. There was little

acceptance by this trade of that system because " we can't afford it " ,

" we can buy cheaper elsewhere " , etc. etc. Now we have simply

thousands of web sites selling what their suppliers **tell them** are

genuine oils BUT IN REALITY ARE FAR FROM IT.

 

As I said in my previous message, it is a FACT, that vast amounts of

adulterated aromatics have always existed in the fragrance,

aromatherapy, natural perfumery, etc trades. Yet look at the claims

on nearly all suppliers web sites of how they ONLY sell " natural

organic oils " .

 

I just find it irritating that two suppliers who have tried

historically to get good quality products, get castigated in a way

they have been on the other group. Fine telling people that an

adulterated product has been detected and who sold it, I don't have

any problem with that. However, this stinks to me of a conspiracy to

'get' certain suppliers, when I would suspect that several other

suppliers on that group are selling touched-up oils, and some

knowingly so. Maybe one or more of that groups members are after

building themselves up as a supplier, by damaging the reputation of

others?

 

My ex boss used to analyse essential oils for big time importers in

the oils trade, as well as on behalf of our Trading Standards people,

so I do know what was being sold by who to whom, including some of the

biggest names in the aromatherapy trade. I have a long memory and

many files. In the USA I have not forgotten that an analyst was fired

by a major oil supplier years ago for revealing just a fraction of the

secrets on adulteration. That supplier in turn sells to smaller

distributors in aromatherapy, etc.

 

I doubt there is any aromatherapy or allied supplier who has always

sold unadulterated oils despite their best efforts. So I am left

wondering why someone would handle this situation like this? I could

name a dozen or more major suppliers that I know buy and sell phoney

oils, but I can't risk it because one batch may be a fake and the next

adulterated, so at any given time one cannot be certain that naming

them will prove fruitful.

 

So much for natural perfumery!

 

Martin Watt

http://www.aromamedical.com

[Guest guest]

Martin Watt wrote:

> The instance above is just another example of what a corrupt industry

> the supply of natural extracts is and has always been. I know that

> the supposed Linden extract came from a large French fragrance

> supplier. BBS (UK) only resold it as a favour to someone who said

> they were into making perfumes, and BBS had no idea that it would re

> sold. They withdrew this extract from general sale long ago, along

> with other similar extracts that they did not want to sell to therapists.

>

False: it was for retail sale on BBS until last year when Janita

informed them it was synthetic. They pulled it off the site but

continued to sell it to unsuspecting middlemen. This despite the fact

the site states:

> Does an essential oil or absolute have to be pure and natural for a

> treatment ? Yes. This is vital as the oil will contain compounds which

> have known therapeutic properties.

 

> I am informed neither vendor has any record of either Anya or her

> spokesperson (Janita) having ordered their linden absolute, therefore,

> it came via another middleman and who knows what could have been done

> on route.

False. Janita has ordered from them for 10 years, since she visited them

with a very well-known AT writer, met Mr. Helpern and began using them

as a trusted source. It was then she first purchased the fake linden.

She has purchased from them many times since. I received samples of the

fake linden from those who had purchased it from for her

" blending " group, Janita from the BBS stuff, and someone who purchased

from Natures Gift, which still stocks it with an odd disclaimer. Rosanne

of SunRose sent me a sample early on and I immediately told her it was

fake. She then got the real stuff and withdrew the fake from her site.

> Therefore, the demands on the other group to 'not buy any of

> this extract from the UK supplier' are stupid AS IT IS NOT ON GENERAL

> SALE.

False: The middleman was assured by BBS as of last week that it was true

linden. Perhaps Mr. Helpern didn't write the email, but someone in his

company did.

> The person the UK supplier thinks they sold it to is one of the

> many middlemen in the trade who will say; " this is too expensive have

> you got a cheaper one " .

Doesn't make any sense - the price on Natures Gift is about three times

the cost of true linden blossom absolute. Makes no sense at all. Even

BBS had it dirt cheap compared to her price.

> A perennial problem that one, but anyone with

> a knowledge of the aromatics trade should know they will not get the

> unadulerated article. If they do not understand that, then they are

> amateurs and not the expert suppliers like they mislead their

> customers to believe.

>

False: several reputable suppliers have true linden blossom absolute. I

have purchased it from them and it is nothing like the " light lovely

floral " that the bunk smells like. The organoleptic description is know

by many.

> I just find it irritating that two suppliers who have tried

> historically to get good quality products, get castigated in a way

> they have been on the other group. Fine telling people that an

> adulterated product has been detected and who sold it, I don't have

> any problem with that. However, this stinks to me of a conspiracy to

> 'get' certain suppliers, when I would suspect that several other

> suppliers on that group are selling touched-up oils, and some

> knowingly so. Maybe one or more of that groups members are after

> building themselves up as a supplier, by damaging the reputation of

> others?

>

Any group, this one included, has the right to allow members to discuss

suppliers as long as it doesn't turn into a flame war or get personal.

After our group was invaded by some that were obviously in it for the

money, and had very little experience sourcing good supplies, we stopped

allowing selling for some time, or any discussion of suppliers. The rule

was recently relaxed, and the ugly linden scandal once again raised its

head. If any other suppliers were found, they would have been named.

 

I thought you were in the business of outing those who sold adulterated

oils Martin. Well, here two are - and there may be many, many more.

Perhaps you can look at sites and unearth them. Everyone would

appreciate it.

 

Janita had to pull the perfume she made for the Cathedral after the

discovery last year. They received 15% of the profits, so it's a real

issue that hurt a real church from receiving some income. Janita doesn't

sell oils, I only sell four at this time, so the fear that we're

" building themselves up as a supplier " is quite silly.

> I doubt there is any aromatherapy or allied supplier who has always

> sold unadulterated oils despite their best efforts. So I am left

> wondering why someone would handle this situation like this?

So true that each and every supplier has probably gotten some bunk oils

at one point or another. It's how they handle the situation afterwards

that shows their true mettle. Rosanne did the honorable thing. The other

two mentioned either did not, or posted a very odd disclaimer for

someone who sells mostly to the AT trade. I know of the rose otto

scandal - settled honorably. That was huge, and involved tens of

thousands of dollars. Or the sandalwood scandal in the UK - don't

remember the outcome of that. It will be a perpetual thorn in the side

of all AT and NP people, and we will deal with it the best we can.

 

Sharing information with our community is one of those ways.

> So much for natural perfumery!

NP is doing quite well, thank you, and has many of the dangers inherent

in it as AT - but you're not castigating AT, and yet I'll bet if you do

look for sites selling linden blossom absolute, or as BBS called it

linden absolute, a simple google search will show the majority service

the AT community.

 

To the members here who have just now heard about the

hydroxycitronnellol-containing fake linden blossom oil, here's the

difference between it and real linden blossom absolute:

 

the fake is light in color, easy to pour, and smells very light, lively

and floral - like the soaps in the stores that are loaded with synths.

Many folks like synth smells, that's why it's popular. The true stuff is

dark brown/green, thick as tar, hard to work with much less pour, and

has an herbal, hay, warm scent.

 

There's probably lots of the fake stuff for sale in stores and on online

sites - so remember to ask what it looks like, how it handles, and the

scent.

 

No commercial interest in this whole mess, of course, just trying to let

people know that many AT suppliers are still selling the fake stuff.

 

We've put this to bed on my group, but since Martin brought it here,

this is my response, and I'll let folks here follow up on their own and

do research and make their own decisions. HTH.

 

--

- perfumes, aromatics, classes,

consultation

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Reminder!

ATFE2 is a none commercial list and we expect all our members to

respect this by avoiding Naming suppliers in messages.

The comments in the reply to the original post are also libelous as

one of the companies concerned clearly state on their web site:

 

Quote:

" QUALITY WARNING: The bottom line is, I do NOT know whether this

Linden Blossom is what it is supposed to be. I can not offer our

standard guarantee of purity for it. Yet every time I take it out of

our catalogue I get a flood of requests to find more. Our clients

love it. So I'm just posting this caveat to let you know it may or may

not be authentic. "

 

The other company do not sell this oil/absolute on their web site and

second hand information that they have sold it via trade connections

is meaningless and nothing more than slanderous gossip without

documented proof.

 

I have therefore deleted the posts in question and formally end this thread.

 

No More Please.

Liz

 

[Guest guest]

I understand. No problem, and I apologize for mentioning anyone.

 

Liz wrote:

> Reminder!

> ATFE2 is a none commercial list and we expect all our members to

> respect this by avoiding Naming suppliers in messages.

> The comments in the reply to the original post are also libelous as

> one of the companies concerned clearly state on their web site:

>

> Quote:

> " QUALITY WARNING: The bottom line is, I do NOT know whether this

> Linden Blossom is what it is supposed to be. I can not offer our

> standard guarantee of purity for it. Yet every time I take it out of

> our catalogue I get a flood of requests to find more. Our clients

> love it. So I'm just posting this caveat to let you know it may or may

> not be authentic. "

>

> The other company do not sell this oil/absolute on their web site and

> second hand information that they have sold it via trade connections

> is meaningless and nothing more than slanderous gossip without

> documented proof.

>

> I have therefore deleted the posts in question and formally end this thread.

>

> No More Please.

> Liz

>

>

> ---

>

>

[Guest guest]

This latest incident over the fake Linden absolute just proves the

point I have been making over on the group/Botanical_Perfumery where

important messages and discussion are not blocked like they are on

oils_herbs and Natural perfumery. Not just mine by the way, as I have

evidence from others.

 

My point is that the term " natural perfumery " has to be wrong because

most of the people who have latched on to this title do not know if

what they use is natural or otherwise. Therefore the term has no

viability. Those who are trying to define the term are doing it in my

opinion, to raise their profile for nothing other than business reasons.

 

It is obvious that huge volumes of essential oils, etc are adulterated

in one way or another. Therapists using them for human treatments

have been attempting to use only naturals since aromatherapy began,

but i know they have been using adulterated oils. So what hope do

people in natural perfumery, where the fragrance producers rarely sell

pure botanicals, stand of getting pure products ? All they can do is

" trust their suppliers " , that is unreliable as I have written so many

times before. The fact the fake? linden absolute came from a large

French producer, indicates that what I have said in the past about

absolutes from that country always being suspect. Purity of botanical

extracts is NOT something they have any concept of as they manufacture

for the important fragrance houses and anyone else gets what they have

created for the important customers.

 

I would just like to remind Anya that on many occasions in the past

she asked me for my opinion on certain suppliers. Sometimes I could

give a definite answer, but other times just point out obvious

pitfalls like the above.

 

>>I said: If they do not understand that, then they are amateurs and

not the expert suppliers like they mislead their customers to believe.

 

>Anya said: False: several reputable suppliers have true linden

blossom absolute.

 

How do you know yours is real? Did you see it made or have it tested

or did it perhaps come from a " trusted supplier " , funny seem to have

been down that road before. This may seem shutting the stable door

after the horse has bolted, but were any of these absolutes claimed to

be fake ever analysed? I am not saying they might not be fake, but

relying on the nose and colour to tell you is not something that would

stand up in a court.

 

I would point out that my response to the post over fake Linden was

not just me trying to back up people I know. It was simply that I

know these suppliers have always tried harder to prove the quality of

what they sell than many others, with hardly any backing from the rest

of the trade for obvious reasons. Statements on the BBS web site are

targeted at aromatherapists using the products and not perfume makers.

 

Martin Watt

 

ATFE2 , Anya <anya wrote:

>

> Martin Watt wrote:

> > The instance above is just another example of what a corrupt industry

> > the supply of natural extracts is and has always been. I know that

> > the supposed Linden extract came from a large French fragrance

> > supplier. BBS (UK) only resold it as a favour to someone who said

> > they were into making perfumes, and BBS had no idea that it would re

> > sold. They withdrew this extract from general sale long ago, along

> > with other similar extracts that they did not want to sell to

therapists.

> >

> False: it was for retail sale on BBS until last year when Janita

> informed them it was synthetic. They pulled it off the site but

> continued to sell it to unsuspecting middlemen. This despite the fact

> the site states:

[Guest guest]

Hello and thanks to the moderators for allowing me the opportunity to

correct some inaccurate information.

 

ATFE2 , Anya <anya wrote:

> I received samples of the

> fake linden from those who had purchased it from for her

> " blending " group,

 

This is quite impossible, since I never sold any of this material to

any of the members of my 'blending' group, or anyone else for that

matter. I did *gift* some to a couple of members, when they were

looking for linden and needed it in a pinch. I offered to share what

I had on hand, with the caveat that I was not convinced it was

entirely pure and natural.

 

When concerns were raised as to its authenticity, I reiterated that I

had my own doubts, but had no proof and did not consider my own nose

to be infallible, but since there were others that were concerned, I

asked the supplier from whom I received it. They offered a complete

refund, and after doing some research with their source, confirmed

that it had been tarted up. Sincere apologies were offered, and a

full refund was again offered, but it was not necessary.

 

I don't expect my suppliers to be perfect, I do expect them to be

honest, and to be accountable when there has been a mistake. I want

the opportunity to make an informed decision, and full disclosure is

the only thing that will allow this.

 

The suppliers I am willing to do business with provide full

disclosure. This is much more than I can say for many 'natural'

perfumers.