Qs on breastfeeding, infant digestion, and immunizations

April 10, 2006

-Dear Julie;

I'm so sorry for not paying attention here ... your quesiton is very

appropriate and natural seeing how it is even encouraged at the LLL

meetings. Did you happen to also notice how many of htem had runny

noses? Whenever I attended these meetings, it was a definite factor.

The snotty noses comes up from the same reason in earlier postpartum

you were encouraged, after nursing got well established, to lean into

the 2 hour minimum rule. I know many midwives and lactation support

folks and doulas and all are trained differently, and of course, our

hearts want to offer the sweetness of breast comfort at the first sign

of unhappiness ....

It is wise, according to ayurveda, and my experience, to do your best

to find other motherly and loving ways to comfort, entertain,

interest, and otherwise soothe your baby before offering the breast if

he/she has nursed within the last 2 hours. Of course, with dramatic

stressors, we all find offering the breast sometimes the best. But as

any kind of regular habit, we are best advised to minimize it.

So again, when we as adults or infants, same principle, eat on top of

partially digested food, and in particular take in sweet milk on top

of souring milk, we have a neet result of incomplete products of

digestion, resulting in waste accumulations in the system in various

ways. Resulting in food for disease organisms accumulating in the

body, and increased mucuous and lowered immune response.

The occasional growth spurts are a different matter, agni (digestive

fire/ahhh for life/appetite) is naturally up, and perhaps a few min

before 2 hours is needed anyway for a day or two. Otherwise, what

happens? Baby tends to take more than a nip ....more than a sip. And

well, we all are encouraged to digest one meal before snacking, tho

sometimes we just need something sweet, it is true. Many factors,

The Choice and the Art is yours, of course ...

Regarding immunizations, hmm, my opinions are so strong it is

difficult to stop and just think what is the Ayurvedic approach. In

classical ayurveda Baby's first immunization is at birth, a gold wire

is rubbed through a calamus root and then rubbed over a tiny amount of

raw honey and ghee, then given the baby. We cannot recommend this

here, of course, with the concerns about honey, though in practice for

thousands of years in India and Nepal.

Second immunizaton is I forget, 3 or 4 months? Gold ear wires are put

through the ears! Not just about decorating, not some perverse thing

I initually thought seeing babies withpeirced ears, but the gold

actually immunizes in these small amounts of exposure through key

points on the ears. And so on ...

Things such as allopathic immunizations are introducing both stress

and severe impurities into such a delicate system, I have heard that

even many allopathic physicians will not give their own children

immunizations even tho required by law to recommend them to their

clients.

Herbs are used from time to time with the babies. Essential oils and

pure incenses are used to purify and protect the atmosphere, even from

birth onward in ayurvedic homes since ancient times. I am past my

bedtime and would have to dig into my references to be more specific

at this time, but there are vaidyas living in this country, several

wonderful women listed on the sacredwindow.com/resources page, who

know these things well. It is of course officially beyond my position

and training to recommend.

Welcome, Julie, and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and

questions. I hope you will join us in further discussions.

Many Blessings;

Ysha (Martha)

> Hi my name is Julie Caro, a first time Mom with a ten week old baby

boy--> Elijah-I have been using ayurvedic principles in my own health

routine for > many years and havr enjoyed great sucess applying

ayurveda to my > pregnancy and 6-week postpartum period.

>

> Now a few questions for moving forward!

>

> 1. with regard to the ayurvedic principle of nursing on modified

demand--> every two hours--I have been practicing this and my baby has

been very > happy--now that i have been hanging out with some other

mothers I have > noticed that they nurse almost all the time at little

intervals usually to calm > their babies or toddlers-I noticed this

especislly at a la leche meeting I > attended last week. So is it OK

to nurse for few minutes before 2 hours if > needed to give baby some

comfort or to help settle him for sleep? I'm thinking

> about this especially as my baby gets older.

>

> 2.What is the ayurvedic opinion on vaccinations in

general,especially in > regard to their effect on the immune system.

I realize this is a big question > and I am just looking for most

general ayurvedic principles/understanding as > an answer--or if there

soomething published on this topic.

>

> Thanks! I'm looking forward to being part of the group.

>

April 11, 2006

I've been waiting for your answer for I was curious about the

reasons. Makes sense to me -- having bf in the era of scheduling

every four hours (my poor baby) and now knowing what I figured out

with baby number 3-- that BF should be on demand. Seems like another

example of the need to find the balance and to learn how to listen

to our baby's needs, and our own inner baby. To further address your

comment about the mother needing to find alternative methods to calm

the baby, from a prenatal and birth psycho/emotional perspective, I

would add that:

1) our baby's cries -- or any baby, really -- can really trigger our

emotional wounds. And, a woman's own birth experience will be re-

experienced in her baby's birth, so her crying baby will trigger her

own " preverbal " memories;

2) so, we wonder if a mother constantly breastfeeding is consoling

herself; and,

3) hormonally, we know that this is pretty easy to do since oxytocin

does in fact calm baby and mom (and everyone around -- I am a junkie

for sitting with nursing moms~)

4) baby's have only a couple of ways to communicate with us -- their

body language, their sounds, and their emotions. If we recognize

every little movement and noise as communication, and we settle

ourself so that we can be present with them it is easier to

understand them. I share with parents that babies are just like us --

they want to be seen and acknowledged. In the early months we

believe the baby is processing birth -- just like mamas, daddies,

and others need to do. They talk about it. They really need to be

heard. If we are sharing something important -- something traumatic

or frightening -- and people say, " shh, shh, it's ok, " and stick

something in our mouth it won't be long before we are louder and

louder or eventually shut-off, or eating or drinking to calm our

emotions as children and adults. I like to suggest, " I want it to be

ok. " " How can I make it ok " -- not, " It's ok, it's ok " . " I am

listening " while offering a gentle touch (so they feel a boundary

and don't get lost in it) to a kicking leg or flailing arm. " Do you

feel me here? " A baby will often stop intense crying to make eye

contact, almost in disbelief. THIS is when some of the parent's

emotional stuff can become more clear as well.

Your explanation of digestion problems when eating when not hungry

makes lots of sense. I think this all applies to women bottlefeeding

their babies as well.

Sent the info to my daughter and 3 month old grandson. Thanks for

the question and the answer.

Janel

ayurveda , " Martha Oakes "

<AyurDoulas wrote:

>

> -Dear Julie;

> I'm so sorry for not paying attention here ... your quesiton is

very

> appropriate and natural seeing how it is even encouraged at the LLL

> meetings. Did you happen to also notice how many of htem had runny

> noses? Whenever I attended these meetings, it was a definite

factor.

> The snotty noses comes up from the same reason in earlier

postpartum

> you were encouraged, after nursing got well established, to lean

into

> the 2 hour minimum rule. I know many midwives and lactation

support

> folks and doulas and all are trained differently, and of course,

our

> hearts want to offer the sweetness of breast comfort at the first

sign

> of unhappiness ....

>

> It is wise, according to ayurveda, and my experience, to do your

best

> to find other motherly and loving ways to comfort, entertain,

> interest, and otherwise soothe your baby before offering the

breast if

> he/she has nursed within the last 2 hours. Of course, with dramatic

> stressors, we all find offering the breast sometimes the best.

But as

> any kind of regular habit, we are best advised to minimize it.

>

> So again, when we as adults or infants, same principle, eat on top

of

> partially digested food, and in particular take in sweet milk on

top

> of souring milk, we have a neet result of incomplete products of

> digestion, resulting in waste accumulations in the system in

various

> ways. Resulting in food for disease organisms accumulating in the

> body, and increased mucuous and lowered immune response.

>

> The occasional growth spurts are a different matter, agni

(digestive

> fire/ahhh for life/appetite) is naturally up, and perhaps a few min

> before 2 hours is needed anyway for a day or two. Otherwise, what

> happens? Baby tends to take more than a nip ....more than a sip.

And

> well, we all are encouraged to digest one meal before snacking, tho

> sometimes we just need something sweet, it is true. Many factors,

>

> The Choice and the Art is yours, of course ...

>

> Regarding immunizations, hmm, my opinions are so strong it is

> difficult to stop and just think what is the Ayurvedic approach.

In

> classical ayurveda Baby's first immunization is at birth, a gold

wire

> is rubbed through a calamus root and then rubbed over a tiny

amount of

> raw honey and ghee, then given the baby. We cannot recommend this

> here, of course, with the concerns about honey, though in practice

for

> thousands of years in India and Nepal.

>

> Second immunizaton is I forget, 3 or 4 months? Gold ear wires are

put

> through the ears! Not just about decorating, not some perverse

thing

> I initually thought seeing babies withpeirced ears, but the gold

> actually immunizes in these small amounts of exposure through key

> points on the ears. And so on ...

>

> Things such as allopathic immunizations are introducing both stress

> and severe impurities into such a delicate system, I have heard

that

> even many allopathic physicians will not give their own children

> immunizations even tho required by law to recommend them to their

> clients.

>

> Herbs are used from time to time with the babies. Essential oils

and

> pure incenses are used to purify and protect the atmosphere, even

from

> birth onward in ayurvedic homes since ancient times. I am past my

> bedtime and would have to dig into my references to be more

specific

> at this time, but there are vaidyas living in this country, several

> wonderful women listed on the sacredwindow.com/resources page, who

> know these things well. It is of course officially beyond my

position

> and training to recommend.

>

> Welcome, Julie, and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and

> questions. I hope you will join us in further discussions.

>

> Many Blessings;

> Ysha (Martha)

>

> > Hi my name is Julie Caro, a first time Mom with a ten week old

baby

> boy--> Elijah-I have been using ayurvedic principles in my own

health

> routine for > many years and havr enjoyed great sucess applying

> ayurveda to my > pregnancy and 6-week postpartum period.

> >

> > Now a few questions for moving forward!

> >

> > 1. with regard to the ayurvedic principle of nursing on modified

> demand--> every two hours--I have been practicing this and my baby

has

> been very > happy--now that i have been hanging out with some other

> mothers I have > noticed that they nurse almost all the time at

little

> intervals usually to calm > their babies or toddlers-I noticed this

> especislly at a la leche meeting I > attended last week. So is it

OK

> to nurse for few minutes before 2 hours if > needed to give baby

some

> comfort or to help settle him for sleep? I'm thinking

> > about this especially as my baby gets older.

> >

> > 2.What is the ayurvedic opinion on vaccinations in

> general,especially in > regard to their effect on the immune

system.

> I realize this is a big question > and I am just looking for most

> general ayurvedic principles/understanding as > an answer--or if

there

> soomething published on this topic.

> >

> > Thanks! I'm looking forward to being part of the group.

> >

>

April 11, 2006

Janel: I love your explanation and your understanding of babies. I quite

agree. My favorite topic.

Have you been reading David Chamberlains work, Wendy McCarty, the APPPAH?

Vicky

-

" Janel Lou Martin Miranda " <janel_miranda

Monday, April 10, 2006 10:33 PM

Re: Qs on breastfeeding, infant digestion, and immunizations

> I've been waiting for your answer for I was curious about the

> reasons. Makes sense to me -- having bf in the era of scheduling

> every four hours (my poor baby) and now knowing what I figured out

> with baby number 3-- that BF should be on demand. Seems like another

> example of the need to find the balance and to learn how to listen

> to our baby's needs, and our own inner baby. To further address your

> comment about the mother needing to find alternative methods to calm

> the baby, from a prenatal and birth psycho/emotional perspective, I

> would add that:

> 1) our baby's cries -- or any baby, really -- can really trigger our

> emotional wounds. And, a woman's own birth experience will be re-

> experienced in her baby's birth, so her crying baby will trigger her

> own " preverbal " memories;

> 2) so, we wonder if a mother constantly breastfeeding is consoling

> herself; and,

> 3) hormonally, we know that this is pretty easy to do since oxytocin

> does in fact calm baby and mom (and everyone around -- I am a junkie

> for sitting with nursing moms~)

> 4) baby's have only a couple of ways to communicate with us -- their

> body language, their sounds, and their emotions. If we recognize

> every little movement and noise as communication, and we settle

> ourself so that we can be present with them it is easier to

> understand them. I share with parents that babies are just like us --

> they want to be seen and acknowledged. In the early months we

> believe the baby is processing birth -- just like mamas, daddies,

> and others need to do. They talk about it. They really need to be

> heard. If we are sharing something important -- something traumatic

> or frightening -- and people say, " shh, shh, it's ok, " and stick

> something in our mouth it won't be long before we are louder and

> louder or eventually shut-off, or eating or drinking to calm our

> emotions as children and adults. I like to suggest, " I want it to be

> ok. " " How can I make it ok " -- not, " It's ok, it's ok " . " I am

> listening " while offering a gentle touch (so they feel a boundary

> and don't get lost in it) to a kicking leg or flailing arm. " Do you

> feel me here? " A baby will often stop intense crying to make eye

> contact, almost in disbelief. THIS is when some of the parent's

> emotional stuff can become more clear as well.

>

> Your explanation of digestion problems when eating when not hungry

> makes lots of sense. I think this all applies to women bottlefeeding

> their babies as well.

>

> Sent the info to my daughter and 3 month old grandson. Thanks for

> the question and the answer.

> Janel

>

> ayurveda , " Martha Oakes "

> <AyurDoulas wrote:

> >

> > -Dear Julie;

> > I'm so sorry for not paying attention here ... your quesiton is

> very

> > appropriate and natural seeing how it is even encouraged at the LLL

> > meetings. Did you happen to also notice how many of htem had runny

> > noses? Whenever I attended these meetings, it was a definite

> factor.

> > The snotty noses comes up from the same reason in earlier

> postpartum

> > you were encouraged, after nursing got well established, to lean

> into

> > the 2 hour minimum rule. I know many midwives and lactation

> support

> > folks and doulas and all are trained differently, and of course,

> our

> > hearts want to offer the sweetness of breast comfort at the first

> sign

> > of unhappiness ....

> >

> > It is wise, according to ayurveda, and my experience, to do your

> best

> > to find other motherly and loving ways to comfort, entertain,

> > interest, and otherwise soothe your baby before offering the

> breast if

> > he/she has nursed within the last 2 hours. Of course, with dramatic

> > stressors, we all find offering the breast sometimes the best.

> But as

> > any kind of regular habit, we are best advised to minimize it.

> >

> > So again, when we as adults or infants, same principle, eat on top

> of

> > partially digested food, and in particular take in sweet milk on

> top

> > of souring milk, we have a neet result of incomplete products of

> > digestion, resulting in waste accumulations in the system in

> various

> > ways. Resulting in food for disease organisms accumulating in the

> > body, and increased mucuous and lowered immune response.

> >

> > The occasional growth spurts are a different matter, agni

> (digestive

> > fire/ahhh for life/appetite) is naturally up, and perhaps a few min

> > before 2 hours is needed anyway for a day or two. Otherwise, what

> > happens? Baby tends to take more than a nip ....more than a sip.

> And

> > well, we all are encouraged to digest one meal before snacking, tho

> > sometimes we just need something sweet, it is true. Many factors,

> >

> > The Choice and the Art is yours, of course ...

> >

> > Regarding immunizations, hmm, my opinions are so strong it is

> > difficult to stop and just think what is the Ayurvedic approach.

> In

> > classical ayurveda Baby's first immunization is at birth, a gold

> wire

> > is rubbed through a calamus root and then rubbed over a tiny

> amount of

> > raw honey and ghee, then given the baby. We cannot recommend this

> > here, of course, with the concerns about honey, though in practice

> for

> > thousands of years in India and Nepal.

> >

> > Second immunizaton is I forget, 3 or 4 months? Gold ear wires are

> put

> > through the ears! Not just about decorating, not some perverse

> thing

> > I initually thought seeing babies withpeirced ears, but the gold

> > actually immunizes in these small amounts of exposure through key

> > points on the ears. And so on ...

> >

> > Things such as allopathic immunizations are introducing both stress

> > and severe impurities into such a delicate system, I have heard

> that

> > even many allopathic physicians will not give their own children

> > immunizations even tho required by law to recommend them to their

> > clients.

> >

> > Herbs are used from time to time with the babies. Essential oils

> and

> > pure incenses are used to purify and protect the atmosphere, even

> from

> > birth onward in ayurvedic homes since ancient times. I am past my

> > bedtime and would have to dig into my references to be more

> specific

> > at this time, but there are vaidyas living in this country, several

> > wonderful women listed on the sacredwindow.com/resources page, who

> > know these things well. It is of course officially beyond my

> position

> > and training to recommend.

> >

> > Welcome, Julie, and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and

> > questions. I hope you will join us in further discussions.

> >

> > Many Blessings;

> > Ysha (Martha)

> >

> > > Hi my name is Julie Caro, a first time Mom with a ten week old

> baby

> > boy--> Elijah-I have been using ayurvedic principles in my own

> health

> > routine for > many years and havr enjoyed great sucess applying

> > ayurveda to my > pregnancy and 6-week postpartum period.

> > >

> > > Now a few questions for moving forward!

> > >

> > > 1. with regard to the ayurvedic principle of nursing on modified

> > demand--> every two hours--I have been practicing this and my baby

> has

> > been very > happy--now that i have been hanging out with some other

> > mothers I have > noticed that they nurse almost all the time at

> little

> > intervals usually to calm > their babies or toddlers-I noticed this

> > especislly at a la leche meeting I > attended last week. So is it

> OK

> > to nurse for few minutes before 2 hours if > needed to give baby

> some

> > comfort or to help settle him for sleep? I'm thinking

> > > about this especially as my baby gets older.

> > >

> > > 2.What is the ayurvedic opinion on vaccinations in

> > general,especially in > regard to their effect on the immune

> system.

> > I realize this is a big question > and I am just looking for most

> > general ayurvedic principles/understanding as > an answer--or if

> there

> > soomething published on this topic.

> > >

> > > Thanks! I'm looking forward to being part of the group.

> > >

> >

>

April 13, 2006

Thanks for these wonderful responses to my question on BF--Martha it's

great t have the additional knowledge to support what I am doing with

my baby- & I especially loved Janel's alternatives to the " it's OK "

mantra of baby calming!

On Apr 11, 2006, at 12:15 PM, <VMYORK wrote:

> Janel: I love your explanation and your understanding of babies. I

> quite

> agree. My favorite topic.

> Have you been reading David Chamberlains work, Wendy McCarty, the

> APPPAH?

> Vicky

>

> -

> " Janel Lou Martin Miranda " <janel_miranda

> <ayurveda >

> Monday, April 10, 2006 10:33 PM

> Re: Qs on breastfeeding, infant digestion, and immunizations

>

> > I've been waiting for your answer for I was curious about the

> > reasons. Makes sense to meÂ -- having bf in the era of scheduling

> > every four hours (my poor baby) and now knowing what I figured out

> > with baby number 3-- that BF should be on demand. Seems like another

> > example of the need to find the balance and to learn how to listen

> > to our baby's needs, and our own inner baby. To further address your

> > comment about the mother needing to find alternative methods to calm

> > the baby, from a prenatal and birth psycho/emotional perspective, I

> > would add that:

> > 1) our baby's cries -- or any baby, really -- can really trigger our

> > emotional wounds. And, a woman's own birth experience will be re-

> > experienced in her baby's birth, so her crying baby will trigger her

> > own " preverbal " memories;

> > 2) so, we wonder if a mother constantly breastfeeding is consoling

> > herself; and,

> > 3) hormonally, we know that this is pretty easy to do since oxytocin

> > does in fact calm baby and mom (and everyone around -- I am a junkie

> > for sitting with nursing moms~)

> > 4) baby's have only a couple of ways to communicate with us -- their

> > body language, their sounds, and their emotions. If we recognize

> > every little movement and noise as communication, and we settle

> > ourself so that we can be present with them it is easier to

> > understand them. I share with parents that babies are just like us

> --

> >Â they want to be seen and acknowledged. In the early months we

> > believe the baby is processing birth -- just like mamas, daddies,

> > and others need to do. They talk about it. They really need to be

> > heard. If we are sharing something important -- something traumatic

> > or frightening -- and people say, " shh, shh, it's ok, " and stick

> > something in our mouth it won't be long before we are louder and

> > louder or eventually shut-off, or eating or drinking to calm our

> > emotions as children and adults. I like to suggest, " I want it to be

> > ok. " " How can I make it ok " -- not, " It's ok, it's ok " . " I am

> > listening " while offering a gentle touch (so they feel a boundary

> > and don't get lost in it) to a kicking leg or flailing arm. " Do you

> > feel me here? " A baby will often stop intense crying to make eye

> > contact, almost in disbelief. THIS is when some of the parent's

> > emotional stuff can become more clear as well.

> >

> > Your explanation of digestion problems when eating when not hungry

> > makes lots of sense. I think this all applies to women bottlefeeding

> > their babies as well.

> >

> > Sent the info to my daughter and 3 month old grandson. Thanks for

> > the question and the answer.

> > Janel

> >

> > ayurveda , " Martha Oakes "

> > <AyurDoulas wrote:

> > >

> > > -Dear Julie;

> > > I'm so sorry for not paying attention here ... your quesiton is

> > very

> > > appropriate and natural seeing how it is even encouraged at the

> LLL

> > > meetings.Â Did you happen to also notice how many of htem had

> runny

> > > noses?Â Whenever I attended these meetings, it was a definite

> > factor.

> > >Â The snotty noses comes up from the same reason in earlier

> > postpartum

> > > you were encouraged, after nursing got well established, to lean

> > into

> > > the 2 hour minimum rule.Â I know many midwives and lactation

> > support

> > > folks and doulas and all are trained differently, and of course,

> > our

> > > hearts want to offer the sweetness of breast comfort at the first

> > sign

> > > of unhappiness ....

> > >

> > > It is wise, according to ayurveda, and my experience, to do your

> > best

> > > to find other motherly and loving ways to comfort, entertain,

> > > interest, and otherwise soothe your baby before offering the

> > breast if

> > > he/she has nursed within the last 2 hours. Of course, with

> dramatic

> > > stressors, we all find offering the breast sometimes the best.

> > But as

> > > any kind of regular habit, we are best advised to minimize it.

> > >

> > > So again, when we as adults or infants, same principle, eat on top

> > of

> > > partially digested food, and in particular take in sweet milk on

> > top

> > > of souring milk, we have a neet result of incomplete products of

> > > digestion, resulting in waste accumulations in the system in

> > various

> > > ways.Â Resulting in food for disease organisms accumulating in the

> > > body, and increased mucuous and lowered immune response.

> > >

> > > The occasional growth spurts are a different matter, agni

> > (digestive

> > > fire/ahhh for life/appetite) is naturally up, and perhaps a few

> min

> > > before 2 hours is needed anyway for a day or two.Â Otherwise, what

> > > happens?Â Baby tends to take more than a nip ....more than a sip.

> > And

> > > well, we all are encouraged to digest one meal before snacking,

> tho

> > > sometimes we just need something sweet, it is true.Â Many factors,

> > >

> > > The Choice and the Art is yours, of course ...

> > >

> > > Regarding immunizations, hmm, my opinions are so strong it is

> > > difficult to stop and just think what is the Ayurvedic approach.

> > In

> > > classical ayurveda Baby's first immunization is at birth, a gold

> > wire

> > > is rubbed through a calamus root and then rubbed over a tiny

> > amount of

> > > raw honey and ghee, then given the baby.Â We cannot recommend this

> > > here, of course, with the concerns about honey, though in practice

> > for

> > > thousands of years in India and Nepal.

> > >

> > > Second immunizaton is I forget, 3 or 4 months?Â Gold ear wires are

> > put

> > > through the ears!Â Not just about decorating, not some perverse

> > thing

> > > I initually thought seeing babies withpeirced ears, but the gold

> > > actually immunizes in these small amounts of exposure through key

> > > points on the ears.Â And so on ...

> > >

> > > Things such as allopathic immunizations are introducing both

> stress

> > > and severe impurities into such a delicate system, I have heard

> > that

> > > even many allopathic physicians will not give their own children

> > > immunizations even tho required by law to recommend them to their

> > > clients.

> > >

> > > Herbs are used from time to time with the babies.Â Essential oils

> > and

> > > pure incenses are used to purify and protect the atmosphere, even

> > from

> > > birth onward in ayurvedic homes since ancient times.Â I am past my

> > > bedtime and would have to dig into my references to be more

> > specific

> > > at this time, but there are vaidyas living in this country,

> several

> > > wonderful women listed on the sacredwindow.com/resources page, who

> > > know these things well.Â It is of course officially beyond my

> > position

> > > and training to recommend.

> > >

> > > Welcome, Julie, and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts

> and

> > > questions.Â I hope you will join us in further discussions.

> > >

> > > Many Blessings;

> > > Ysha (Martha)

> > >

> > > > Hi my name is Julie Caro, a first time Mom with a ten week old

> > baby

> > > boy--> Elijah-I have been using ayurvedic principles in my own

> > health

> > > routine for > many years and havr enjoyed great sucess applying

> > > ayurveda to my > pregnancy and 6-week postpartum period.

> > > >

> > > > Now a few questions for moving forward!

> > > >

> > > > 1. with regard to the ayurvedic principle of nursing on modified

> > > demand--> every two hours--I have been practicing this and my baby

> > has

> > > been very > happy--now that i have been hanging out with some

> other

> > > mothers I have > noticed that they nurse almost all the time at

> > little

> > > intervals usually to calm > their babies or toddlers-I noticed

> this

> > > especislly at a la leche meeting I > attended last week.Â So is it

> > OK

> > > to nurse for few minutes before 2 hours if > needed to give baby

> > some

> > > comfort or to help settle him for sleep? I'm thinking

> > > > about this especially as my baby gets older.

> > > >

> > > > 2.What is the ayurvedic opinion on vaccinations in

> > > general,especially in > regard to their effect on the immune

> > system.

> > >Â I realize this is a big question > and I am just looking for most

> > > general ayurvedic principles/understanding as > an answer--or if

> > there

> > > soomething published on this topic.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks!Â I'm looking forward to being part of the group.

> > > >

> > >

> >

April 18, 2006

> It is wise, according to ayurveda, and my experience, to do your

best to find other motherly and loving ways to comfort, entertain,

> interest, and otherwise soothe your baby before offering the

breast if he/she has nursed within the last 2 hours. Of course, with

dramatic stressors, we all find offering the breast sometimes the

best.

But as any kind of regular habit, we are best advised to minimize it.

> So again, when we as adults or infants, same principle, eat on top

of partially digested food, and in particular take in sweet milk on

top of souring milk, we have a neet result of incomplete products of

> digestion

This might be OK for older babies, but I would not recommend interval

feeding any newborns at all. Evolution has designed our our babies

and our milk composition for frequent nursing. When BF is delayed,

milk composition changes and the fat is resorbed, and babies are get

mainly carbs at the next feed. I don't know what Ayurveda would make

of this, but this is how we've evolved to ensure our best chances of

survival. Babies brains grow more in the first months than in any

other time during their lives.

Until I'm convinced otherwise I would never recommend denying a babe

the breast. When babies are not hungry and want closeness they nurse

lazily or just nuzzle around. In these cases it may be appropriate to

encourage baby to nurse or get off the boob.

Also, infant and baby digestion is very different from adult

digestion, don't you think?

~Erin Sweeney, CPM

April 19, 2006

I have found that babies need to nurse every hour or more during the first

days but by the end of the week are well able to go 2 hours without eating,

and usually prefer to do so if they had a good feeding. They usually don't

care if their diapers are wet or soiled, as long as it is warm pee/poop.

Babies can be conditioned to eat every half hour or every 3 hours, they just

learn to take the amount needed to last that amount of time. Much brain

growth goes on during sleep and they need that too, not to mention the down

time required from all the stimulation of the babies new world. I have seen

mothers nurse their babies every time they cry because they don't know what

else to do and the babies get very gassy. When it goes on for a long time

they get unnecessarily fat when all they needed was to be swaddled and

movement. Offering the swaddling and carrying is not " denying the breast " . I

have seen many babies spit up sour milk right before his next feeding, so it

seems there is truth to Ysha's remarks. Often babies nurse eagerly, even

when full, appearing very hungry, but they are calming themselves because

they are upset or over tired and are trying to put themselves to sleep or

soothe themselves.

It is not true that a baby's stomach is the size of a marble. I have heard a

walnut but it must very stretchy because some parents have given their

newborn 6 ounces of formula because a baby kept sucking (he was comforting

himself... not that hungry!) I am going on my experience of observing babies

working with nearly 600 clients as well as 6 years working in a newborn

nursery. I'm convinced of what I have seen.

We don't really know how different infant digestion and adult digestion is.

I really didn't hear Ysha put down LLLI though. I think she has as much

respect for them as I do. LLLI is pretty much right on most things they

say, though some groups are more militant about breastfeeding than others.

Vicky

-

" erin sweeney, cpm " <parteira

Monday, April 17, 2006 7:23 PM

Re: Qs on breastfeeding, infant digestion, and immunizations

> > It is wise, according to ayurveda, and my experience, to do your

> best to find other motherly and loving ways to comfort, entertain,

> > interest, and otherwise soothe your baby before offering the

> breast if he/she has nursed within the last 2 hours. Of course, with

> dramatic stressors, we all find offering the breast sometimes the

> best.

> But as any kind of regular habit, we are best advised to minimize it.

> > So again, when we as adults or infants, same principle, eat on top

> of partially digested food, and in particular take in sweet milk on

> top of souring milk, we have a neet result of incomplete products of

> > digestion

>

> This might be OK for older babies, but I would not recommend interval

> feeding any newborns at all. Evolution has designed our our babies

> and our milk composition for frequent nursing. When BF is delayed,

> milk composition changes and the fat is resorbed, and babies are get

> mainly carbs at the next feed. I don't know what Ayurveda would make

> of this, but this is how we've evolved to ensure our best chances of

> survival. Babies brains grow more in the first months than in any

> other time during their lives.

>

> Until I'm convinced otherwise I would never recommend denying a babe

> the breast. When babies are not hungry and want closeness they nurse

> lazily or just nuzzle around. In these cases it may be appropriate to

> encourage baby to nurse or get off the boob.

>

> Also, infant and baby digestion is very different from adult

> digestion, don't you think?

>

> ~Erin Sweeney, CPM

April 19, 2006

Dear Vicky ~

Thank you for your input. I didn't point out Ysha as having put down LLL. I

was indicating a feeling I got from various comments in a few different

posts over time. Ysha is a wise and wonderful woman who is doing great work

for women and children and I do agree with what she says. I was just

referring to (and trying to balance) the image of LLL being a silly place

where you never the front of a baby's face.

LLL teaches all the practical stuff about foremilk and hindmilk and other

ways of soothing baby, so moms who are listening aren't going to be

constantly topping off even if there baby wants that. I just wanted to point

out that LLL doesn't teach " nurse for everything, " even though some women at

a LLL meeting may be doing just that.

Regarding the size of a *newborn's* stomach, I will ask the woman who I

heard that from. I have also read it. The context is that in the first so

many days, the newborn's stomach is so small - which is perfect for

colostrum which is measured in teaspoons. But of course it would grow

quickly like all parts of the baby. I'm interested to know the fact, so I'm

happy to hear any more info on this.

Love, Kalavati

>

April 20, 2006

yes, Janel speaks with such compassion and to the emotional processes

- it is a rich sharing!

Ysha

April 20, 2006

Hi Erin;

Actually, the dynamic of infant dygestion and adult is same internal

processes, but infant is said to be immature for about 6 months hence

one of the reasons to breastfeed only first 6 months. And one of hte

reasons to take extra care to support the process. Understanding it

in the big picture of the many emotional factors such as discussed by

Janel, and the observations of Vicki's what, 15 years lactation and pp

doula work also, as well as the medical textbooks around infant health

which are over 5,000 years old, as well as my 14 years experience and

a reflection on how everyone at any age is involved in the spiritual

process of growing in balance between love, desire, discernment,

awareness, the relation of health, digestion and all these (well, this

is another topic to enjoy chewing on, eh?) but breastfeeding is most

certainly not about schedules and denial, it is about living in

healthy rhythms on many levels. It does work well, done lovingly, and

in the process supports many westerners not familiar with this idea OR

breastfeeding for that matter, who have not lived in extended

community to see feel the naturalness of nurturing rhythms. In these

cases they often are overshadowed and very attached to the moment and

delightful experiences of being able to love, give and hold in these

ways, and it becomes a problem of attachements not to be confused with

healthy attachment parenting. I know, been there done that and seen

many more in the same place.

WHich is why the presence of an experienced breastfeeding mom and

elders of the same history lend an ease vibration to the new mom, and

can settle their babies usually so easily without the worry and I'm

not good enough otherwise driven feeding rhythms we see. this of

course is not a blame, it can be understood in a cultural big picture,

and guided by taking her hand so to speak both with shared wisdom,

little tips, and non-verbal presence, knowing simplicity, example,

being there for both mom and baby guidance. This is not denying the

baby anything, it is choices, and given the choices, the baby

discovers happiness in expanded ways.

It is part of a baby's growth of sensory and emotional awareness and

safety experience too. I had a client demonstrate this so clearly,

she was a second time around for me with her, her third baby (first

severe ppd for many months). When the baby woke in the am, and from

naps, she would come into the room and start talking with him, open

the shades to let in the daylight, maybe even fold a little laundry as

he was waking to feel a bigger world of fullness of his monther's

embrace. Then she would pick him up, not waiting for crying of

course, but consciously stretching his awareness of life rhythms and

processes so it wasn't all about the breast and food. The demanding

energy that can be hard on a mom was lessened as she lovingly and

intentionally worked to create this experience.

Some babies are VERY pitta. Pitta dosha needs to eat IMMEDIATELY.

Expanded version of this, they need nourishment, attention,

perfection, beauty, joy, - babies or adults here too, of course infant

needs are more focused through the mouth, it is their sensory gateway

most highly developed, and where they usually experience satisfying

emotions as well as any tummy discomfort.

But if the tummy is unhappy from indigestion - so common! and more

milk is added - we have more discomfort, less settled sleep, more gas,

weaker immune system, more nursing more problems repeated, shorter

feedings, perhaps less hind milk as a result, more tendency to reflux

.... and a frazzled mom who depends more and more on breastfeeding

hormones for her only release?

It is again something we lean into - the 2 hour gap, after the first 2

weeks approximately establishing the breastfeeding relationship as

well as function in a full flow of milk and loving affection and

security, and this age is given term babies. Premies are a different

story, tummies much smaller, needs much different, and I am not going

to presume to be an expert there.

The research I have been exposed to about maintaining fat content in

the breast is around both the mother's diet and lifestyle, and even

more around allowing full feeding on one breast before switching, so

the hind milk is enjoyed/gained. Supply and demand, yes.

Do you know this research? It seems a very general statement at this

point ...

Evolution has designed our our babies

> and our milk composition for frequent nursing. When BF is delayed,

> milk composition changes and the fat is resorbed, and babies are get

> mainly carbs at the next feed. I don't know what Ayurveda would make

> of this, but this is how we've evolved to ensure our best chances of

> survival.

From an ayurvedic standpoint, I can only see this happening (outside

of silly extended gaps) when the mother is not taking in enough fat

herself also (oh, such a common occurance!) Nature has also designed

us for a certain amount of time to digest various foods, certain

processes of chemistry and movement and so on, certain components need

to be there, and it is influenced greatly by both maternal diet and

lifestyle and body type, and the same for even the newborns. THere

are many factors which will weaken the quality of breastmilk which

whould be attended to as a matter of healthy postpartum rejuvenation

anyway and are caveats in the ayurvedic approach.

Babies brains grow more in the first months than in any

> other time during their lives.

Yes, this is one of the reasons why quality and the unusual

recommended postpartum quantity of maternal fats including ample EFA

3s are so important.

> When babies are not hungry and want closeness they nurse

> lazily or just nuzzle around.

These babies are either more kapha body type babies, or with moms in a

more settled state themselves at this time often. Pitta and vata

babies certainly have this behaviour also, but depending upon

environmental and maternal conditions they will more often suck

themselves very uncomfortable if offered, sometimes also demanding it

for lack of other options.

Sucking does give bliss, in addition to stimulating lactation. Given

the state of affairs in this culture including birth practices, loss

of extended family network, 80% pitta dominant population, overall

stress and toxicity levels and many more considerations, I would

explain the " naturalness " of maternal-infant tendency to breastfeed

between feedings or to break up many feedings into snacks as an

unhealthy naturalness we need to give education and support to

lovingly shift away from. Should not be about denial in my opinoin

either, except to deny our what do you call them, neurotic tendencies

by offering comfortable alternatives.

Warm REgards;

Ysha

Postpartum AyurDoula Care, 14 years

AyurDoula Training & Aromatherapy

www.sacredwindow.com

April 20, 2006

....in regard to preemies, in hospitals they have them on about a 2 hr.

schedule because they don't want to wear them out feeding them, recognizing

their need to sleep and gain weight. And as far as I know, you are correct

about fat content issues in breastmilk. I love hearing about teachings of a

4,000 year old health viewpoint compared with " modern " theories. There is

probably a balance of everyone's instincts and knowledge and of course the

body types.

V

-

" Martha Oakes " <AyurDoulas

Thursday, April 20, 2006 10:16 AM

Re: Qs on breastfeeding, infant digestion, and immunizations

> Hi Erin;

> Actually, the dynamic of infant dygestion and adult is same internal

> processes, but infant is said to be immature for about 6 months hence

> one of the reasons to breastfeed only first 6 months. And one of hte

> reasons to take extra care to support the process. Understanding it

> in the big picture of the many emotional factors such as discussed by

> Janel, and the observations of Vicki's what, 15 years lactation and pp

> doula work also, as well as the medical textbooks around infant health

> which are over 5,000 years old, as well as my 14 years experience and

> a reflection on how everyone at any age is involved in the spiritual

> process of growing in balance between love, desire, discernment,

> awareness, the relation of health, digestion and all these (well, this

> is another topic to enjoy chewing on, eh?) but breastfeeding is most

> certainly not about schedules and denial, it is about living in

> healthy rhythms on many levels. It does work well, done lovingly, and

> in the process supports many westerners not familiar with this idea OR

> breastfeeding for that matter, who have not lived in extended

> community to see feel the naturalness of nurturing rhythms. In these

> cases they often are overshadowed and very attached to the moment and

> delightful experiences of being able to love, give and hold in these

> ways, and it becomes a problem of attachements not to be confused with

> healthy attachment parenting. I know, been there done that and seen

> many more in the same place.

>

> WHich is why the presence of an experienced breastfeeding mom and

> elders of the same history lend an ease vibration to the new mom, and

> can settle their babies usually so easily without the worry and I'm

> not good enough otherwise driven feeding rhythms we see. this of

> course is not a blame, it can be understood in a cultural big picture,

> and guided by taking her hand so to speak both with shared wisdom,

> little tips, and non-verbal presence, knowing simplicity, example,

> being there for both mom and baby guidance. This is not denying the

> baby anything, it is choices, and given the choices, the baby

> discovers happiness in expanded ways.

>

> It is part of a baby's growth of sensory and emotional awareness and

> safety experience too. I had a client demonstrate this so clearly,

> she was a second time around for me with her, her third baby (first

> severe ppd for many months). When the baby woke in the am, and from

> naps, she would come into the room and start talking with him, open

> the shades to let in the daylight, maybe even fold a little laundry as

> he was waking to feel a bigger world of fullness of his monther's

> embrace. Then she would pick him up, not waiting for crying of

> course, but consciously stretching his awareness of life rhythms and

> processes so it wasn't all about the breast and food. The demanding

> energy that can be hard on a mom was lessened as she lovingly and

> intentionally worked to create this experience.

>

> Some babies are VERY pitta. Pitta dosha needs to eat IMMEDIATELY.

> Expanded version of this, they need nourishment, attention,

> perfection, beauty, joy, - babies or adults here too, of course infant

> needs are more focused through the mouth, it is their sensory gateway

> most highly developed, and where they usually experience satisfying

> emotions as well as any tummy discomfort.

>

> But if the tummy is unhappy from indigestion - so common! and more

> milk is added - we have more discomfort, less settled sleep, more gas,

> weaker immune system, more nursing more problems repeated, shorter

> feedings, perhaps less hind milk as a result, more tendency to reflux

> ... and a frazzled mom who depends more and more on breastfeeding

> hormones for her only release?

>

> It is again something we lean into - the 2 hour gap, after the first 2

> weeks approximately establishing the breastfeeding relationship as

> well as function in a full flow of milk and loving affection and

> security, and this age is given term babies. Premies are a different

> story, tummies much smaller, needs much different, and I am not going

> to presume to be an expert there.

>

> The research I have been exposed to about maintaining fat content in

> the breast is around both the mother's diet and lifestyle, and even

> more around allowing full feeding on one breast before switching, so

> the hind milk is enjoyed/gained. Supply and demand, yes.

>

> Do you know this research? It seems a very general statement at this

> point ...

> Evolution has designed our our babies

> > and our milk composition for frequent nursing. When BF is delayed,

> > milk composition changes and the fat is resorbed, and babies are get

> > mainly carbs at the next feed. I don't know what Ayurveda would make

> > of this, but this is how we've evolved to ensure our best chances of

> > survival.

>

> From an ayurvedic standpoint, I can only see this happening (outside

> of silly extended gaps) when the mother is not taking in enough fat

> herself also (oh, such a common occurance!) Nature has also designed

> us for a certain amount of time to digest various foods, certain

> processes of chemistry and movement and so on, certain components need

> to be there, and it is influenced greatly by both maternal diet and

> lifestyle and body type, and the same for even the newborns. THere

> are many factors which will weaken the quality of breastmilk which

> whould be attended to as a matter of healthy postpartum rejuvenation

> anyway and are caveats in the ayurvedic approach.

>

> Babies brains grow more in the first months than in any

> > other time during their lives.

> Yes, this is one of the reasons why quality and the unusual

> recommended postpartum quantity of maternal fats including ample EFA

> 3s are so important.

>

> > When babies are not hungry and want closeness they nurse

> > lazily or just nuzzle around.

> These babies are either more kapha body type babies, or with moms in a

> more settled state themselves at this time often. Pitta and vata

> babies certainly have this behaviour also, but depending upon

> environmental and maternal conditions they will more often suck

> themselves very uncomfortable if offered, sometimes also demanding it

> for lack of other options.

>

> Sucking does give bliss, in addition to stimulating lactation. Given

> the state of affairs in this culture including birth practices, loss

> of extended family network, 80% pitta dominant population, overall

> stress and toxicity levels and many more considerations, I would

> explain the " naturalness " of maternal-infant tendency to breastfeed

> between feedings or to break up many feedings into snacks as an

> unhealthy naturalness we need to give education and support to

> lovingly shift away from. Should not be about denial in my opinoin

> either, except to deny our what do you call them, neurotic tendencies

> by offering comfortable alternatives.

>

> Warm REgards;

> Ysha

> Postpartum AyurDoula Care, 14 years

> AyurDoula Training & Aromatherapy

> www.sacredwindow.com

>

April 21, 2006

Hello Martha and ALL,

Good discussion! I appreciate all the info, and I would like to keep

learning about infant and adult digestion.

>So again, when we as adults or infants, same principle, eat on top of

>partially digested food, and in particular take in sweet milk on top

>of souring milk, we have a neet result of incomplete products of

>digestion

Yes, we've all seen overfed babies send back the excess! But folks

here seem to be implying that feeding within 2 hours is

physiologically inappropriate because baby can't digest that fat. In

the absence of spitting up partiallly digested milk, how can this be

known? Forgive me if I am missing something basic here- still

learning about some Ayurvedic basics. I'll have to do some digging

around and see if I come up with any answers as well.

> Do you know this research? It seems a very general statement at

this point ...>>> Evolution has designed our our babies and our milk

composition for frequent nursing. When BF is delayed, milk

composition changes and the fat is resorbed, and babies are get

mainly carbs at the next feed. I don't know what Ayurveda would make

of this, but this is how we've evolved to ensure our best chances of

survival.

The differences in milk composition among carrying species (low fat

and protein) and separated species (high fat and protein) is well-

documented and well know. I am in the middle of a move and all my

books are packed, so I can't give you exact sources, but I think this

information is widely available. If we're still discussing this in

July I'll post sources!

In humans, foremilk is the milk left over from the previous feed.

This foremilk, was hindmilk from the last feed, but it's fat content

changes as it sits in the breast awaiting the next feed. The longer

the interval, the less fat in the foremilk (and our milk already

starts out relatively low in fat). So babies fed on interval are

often unsatisfied after a feed if they're getting primarily low-fat

foremilk. Babies who are nursed for short, frequent intervals are

getting a higher fat content.

The vast majority of continuous or " on demand " nursing I see, with

non-infants, involves frequent, short burts of nursing. This has

always seemed normal and healthy to me, with babies getting good fat

content and not mainly carbs. But maybe we're not a " carrying "

culture anymore.

>I would explain the " naturalness " of maternal-infant tendency to ?

>breastfeed between feedings or to break up many feedings into snacks

>as an unhealthy naturalness we need to give education and support to

> lovingly shift away from. Should not be about denial in my opinoin

> either, except to deny our what do you call them, neurotic

>tendencies by offering comfortable alternatives.

Is the timed nurising recommendation a traditional Ayurveda guideline?

I'd like to learn more about the Ayurvedic approach to infant/child

digestion and recommendations for breastfeeding. I have a deep love

of Ayurveda, and have been healed by its wisdom in my own life.

Being a midwife and having examimed the cultural context of birthing

customs gives me pause to consider undelying cultural attitudes to

women and birth in any healing system--especially healing systems

traditionally dominated by males. All medical and health systems'

theories are rooted in our cultural biases and preferences (however

subconcious they may be). That is not to say that Ayurveda does not

have great wisdom on the matter, just that the cultural cotext should

be considered.

Thank you for the good discussion.

Warm regards,

~Erin

April 22, 2006

A baby can go a whole year on breastmilk only and be perfectly healthy, for

what that's worth. It does seem like it would be easy to give a baby a

tablespoon of food sometime in a day , one time, without being close to a

breaasfeeding session.

Mixing foods is an aspect of Ayurvedic I certainly don't much about.

Vicky

April 23, 2006

>>>>>>>>>>>>> In humans, foremilk is the milk left over from the previous

feed.

" This foremilk, was hindmilk from the last feed, but it's fat content

changes as it sits in the breast awaiting the next feed. The longer

the interval, the less fat in the foremilk (and our milk already

starts out relatively low in fat). So babies fed on interval are

often unsatisfied after a feed if they're getting primarily low-fat

foremilk. Babies who are nursed for short, frequent intervals are

getting a higher fat content.

The vast majority of continuous or " on demand " nursing I see, with

non-infants, involves frequent, short burts of nursing. This has

always seemed normal and healthy to me, with babies getting good fat

content and not mainly carbs. But maybe we're not a " carrying "

culture anymore. " <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

This info seems contradictory and therefore partially incorrect to me. It is

actually stating two different things:

1 - It states that the fat content *is not* in the foremilk.

" it's fat content changes as it sits in the breast awaiting the next feed.

The longer

the interval, the less fat in the foremilk. So babies fed on interval are

often unsatisfied after a feed if they're getting primarily low-fat

foremilk. "

2 - It also states that the fat content *is* in the foremilk

" Babies who are nursed for short, frequent intervals are

getting a higher fat content. ...With babies getting good fat

content and not mainly carbs. "

I've really tried to understand what you're saying and what I've come to

understand is that (please correct me if I'm not getting it and feel free to

comment on what I've additionally written - I am really interested in the

info being discussed in this thread) ...

You're saying that since there's fat left over from the previous feed, it's

ok or good to proceed with frequent short bursts of feeding. But as an

ongoing method of breastfeeding, it seems to me that it is at once much more

simple and much more complicated than that. It seems to me that if there's

always fat left over, that means that those were actually insufficient

feedings and therefore not entirely healthy ones.

I have understood the situation to be like this: Basically, if the baby gets

a real, full meal through a complete nursing session, there *is no need* to

frequently nurse. LLL advises mothers to nurse " early and often " to get

breastfeeding off to a good start and ensure a strong milk supply. But upon

achieving that good start and strong supply, a healthy regular schedule

develops according to the baby's natural need (Ayurvedically, if baby's

hunger is allowed to develop naturally, baby understands his/her own body

type and will manifest own rhythm if allowed). Baby's natural need develops

out of the mother understanding the baby's rhythm and dancing with the baby

in that rhythm, not denying when there's hunger, not overindulging when

there's not hunger.

If the breast is emptied at a feeding (which it generally should be -

without force - in order for the baby to get a complete meal including carbs

and protein) then there is not leftover milk. A lactating breast is

continuously making milk so it is never really *emptied* - but as much as

possible, the mother should not switch breasts until the one is " empty. "

(After burbing, mother can offer the other breast, which baby may or may not

take.) Nor should the baby be fed at short frequent intervals because that

is like drinking sugary, skim milk - to the neglect of receiving the rich

hindmilk (like whole milk) that can only be obtained by drinking *through*

the foremilk and then *through* the hindmilk - all in *one* feeding session.

Fat content comes at the *end* of a *complete nursing session* - not the

beginning.

Frequent nursing that fails to empty the breast may also increase the risk

of mastitis because the breast is never adequately emptied, yet the nipple

is being stimulated and informs the milk producing elements to produce more

and more milk.

I don't think it's normal and healthy for any species to do short frequent

intervals of nursing. I'm not an anthropologist or biologist obviously, but

I have never learned anywhere that animals or indigenous babies sip milk all

day long. (When they're hungry, they drink or play/sip at the breast - but

not that just because they're carried, they drink constantly. Regularly

throughout the day, yes, but not constantly.) Even if human or animal babies

are carried, they've got other things to do throughout their day than to

just drink milk all day. Lots of sleeping, playing, observing, grooming,

communicating and interacting in many different ways.

In any case, there is a very nice book called the Breastfeeding Answer Book,

published by La Leche League International and is not less than 680 pages

long! - and it's all answers about breastfeeding which is just so helpful.

It is full of hundreds of scenarios that the breastfeeding mother and child

may experience to varying degrees and includes anthropological research,

scientific facts, practical information, moral support and lots of other

stuff for breastfeeding mothers and those who serve them. The info

harmonizes well with Ayurveda if understood in the sense that the general

holistic approach of LLL, based on science and the experience of zillions of

moms, allows more specific, intuitive dynamics to emerge gracefully - such

as a baby's natural manifestation of its own body type needs and nursing

patterns.

Love, Kalavati

April 23, 2006

Hi Erin -

I think there is a misunderstanding here, I'm very big on fats! for

adults and little people both, they are way underrated IMO.

The digestion issue is putting sweet milk on top of sour milk, there

are two stages of digestion vying for the body's digestive process

focus. Just as for adults, ayurveda recs to avoid mixing sweet milk

and soured milk products or sour or salty taste (such as milk and

yoghurt together), same reason for babies. It creates accumulations in

the body of incomplete products of digeston which feed the disease

process.

Ayurved also explains a normal person's sequence of from food to the

subtlest or deepest tissue (nerve, bone, and reproductive) usually

takes about 30 days, more postpartum. Milk is one of those rare foods

which properly used (infant or adult, of course some differences

here!) digests much more quickly. But much of this time frame is way

after we even remember when or what we ate .... like many hours or

even several days. A longer discussion than I can do right now, any

ayurvedic practitioner or student might explain the tissue agnis and

all that? Thousands of years old knowledge from medical textbooks

5,000 years old and all.

>

> > Do you know this research? It seems a very general statement at

> this point ...>>> Evolution has designed our our babies and our milk

> composition for frequent nursing.

Yes, about 2 hours rather than the dead food given with formula, which

takes what, about 4 hours?

When BF is delayed, milk composition changes and the fat is resorbed,

and babies are get mainly carbs at the next feed. I don't know what

Ayurveda would make of this, but this is how we've evolved to ensure

our best chances of survival.

No argument with Ma Nature's evolutionary process and wisdom here. It

is about how it is discussed and interpreted perhaps. This research

you refer to may not necessarily discount the ayurvedic approach at

all. I would be looking at it in terms also of the overall fat intake

of the mothers during the research period, usually way too low for

what is needed. Maybe that is or is not a factor, but to look at.

Also from what research I was exposed to at a big ICEA conference

years ago, the hind milk is fat rich still. If baby doesn't get to

it, then baby misses it. I'd be fascinated to read this study and go

into further discussion from there.

Carrying species meaning like kangaroos, separated like humans? Yes,

please share when you can!

> The differences in milk composition among carrying species (low fat

> and protein) and separated species (high fat and protein) is well-

> documented and well know. .... I think this information is widely

available. If we're still discussing this in July I'll post sources!

>

> In humans, foremilk is the milk left over from the previous feed.

> This foremilk, was hindmilk from the last feed, but it's fat content

> changes as it sits in the breast awaiting the next feed. The longer

> the interval, the less fat in the foremilk (and our milk already

> starts out relatively low in fat).

So, the queston to look into is then, why the fat is reabsorbed, and

if this is accurate info. Then maybe we can go from there with

whatever ayurvedic logic or principles we can use to discuss it.

So babies fed on interval are often unsatisfied after a feed if

they're getting primarily low-fat foremilk. Babies who are nursed for

short, frequent intervals are getting a higher fat content.

sounds like this last statement has been documented. But babies fully

fed with the hind milk are also well fed, especially if the mom is

ingesting ample good fats herself, which is a big recommendaton for

postpartum moms unknown in the west. In fact, many moms still believe

the highly promoted idea that to loose weight, reducing fats,

especially good cholesterol fats, is the key. It is actually a very

unhealthy process, especially postpartum.

>

> The vast majority of continuous or " on demand " nursing I see, with

> non-infants, involves frequent, short burts of nursing. This has

> always seemed normal and healthy to me, with babies getting good fat

> content and not mainly carbs. But maybe we're not a " carrying "

> culture anymore.

I see so many very healthy ba bies also feeding with the Ayurvedic

maternal dietary recommendations and making sure their babies are

taking full feedings, and taking time to digest between.

>

> Is the timed nurising recommendation a traditional Ayurveda guideline?

I've never called it timed, tho I do recommend leaning into such a

rhythm along with the other loving big picture how to do it perspective.

>

> Being a midwife and having examimed the cultural context of birthing

> customs gives me pause to consider undelying cultural attitudes to

> women and birth in any healing system--especially healing systems

> traditionally dominated by males.

Ayurveda is dominated and originated by direct and often very subtle

enlightened perception including the understanding of the digestive

system. Ayurvedic pediatrics is a huge " chapter " in their texts, in

which maternal health is also a big piece. The women vaidyas

(ayurvedic docs) have such simplicity and deep understanding and

compassion for the health of both babies and the moms, and it is a

special branch of ayurveda both highly respected and administered and

upheld commonly by women doctors. The male vaidyas I've asked about

it tend to refer me to the women specializing in the field.

All medical and health systems' theories are rooted in our cultural

biases and preferences (however subconcious they may be). That is not

to say that Ayurveda does not have great wisdom on the matter, just

that the cultural cotext should > be considered.

Yes, I have also seen extensions of maternal and infant care discussed

which go beyond what I can accept, and I see cultural biases in those

things for sure. I do my best to not mix them in without saying so.

>

> Thank you for the good discussion.> Warm regards,> ~Erin

A delight, Erin - this kind of deep questioning and sharing of

knowledge and experience are essential, in my opinoin, to bring the

best to mothers and babies in any larger context of exposure!

Love,

Ysha

April 24, 2006

> 1 - It states that the fat content *is not* in the foremilk.

>

> 2 - It also states that the fat content *is* in the foremilk

>

>You're saying that since there's fat left over from the previous

>feed, it's ok or good to proceed with frequent short bursts of

>feeding....It seems to me that if there's always fat left over, that

>means that those were actually insufficient feedings and therefore

>not entirely healthy ones.

Fat can be found in all milk. With shorter-interval nursing the

foremilk is relatively higher in fat because less fat is resorbed

back into mom...You can think of this as " left over " fat, either way.

>Ayurvedically, if baby's hunger is allowed to develop naturally,

>baby understands his/her own body type and will manifest own rhythm

>if allowed).

I think that's a great point! I also think by the time a baby is

fussy and rooting, hunger is well-established.

> Nor should the baby be fed at short frequent intervals because that

> is like drinking sugary, skim milk - to the neglect of receiving

the rich hindmilk (like whole milk) that can only be obtained by

drinking *through* the foremilk and then *through* the hindmilk - Fat

content comes at the *end* of a *complete nursing session* - not the

beginning.

I am not arguing this point- this is the fat-carb ratio with longer

interval feeding, ie, the fat comes last. On shorter interval feeding

the fat has not yet resorbed, and the fat will be found also in

foremilk. This is my understanding of the physiology of human

lactation.

> Frequent nursing that fails to empty the breast may also increase

>the risk of mastitis because the breast is never adequately emptied,

>yet the nipple is being stimulated and informs the milk producing

>elements to produce more and more milk.

Newborns typically nurse for longer periods of time, it is older

babies that self-regulate for shorter nursing sessions.

> I don't think it's normal and healthy for any species to do short

>frequent intervals of nursing. I'm not an anthropologist or

>biologist obviously, but I have never learned anywhere that animals

>or indigenous babies sip milk all day long.

Well, in all fairness I'm not saying babies should sip milk all day.

I am pointing out that carrying sepecies of mammals typically feed on

shorter intervals because there milk has evolved to meet the needs of

close contact between motherbaby.

> In any case, there is a very nice book called the Breastfeeding

>Answer Book, published by La Leche League International and is not

>less than 680 pages long!

I have this book too. I think it's great but it doesn't really get

into the nitty gritty like we're talking about here.

>... specific, intuitive dynamics to emerge gracefully - such

> as a baby's natural manifestation of its own body type needs and ?

>nursing patterns.

Beautifully spoken!

~Erin

May 6, 2006

Did we add to this discussion, the fact that Ayurveda recommends the

mother especially during the first 6 weeks - 3 months intake amuch

larger amount of good fats than normal?

One indian grandmother gave me a startling figure, and I agree

eachperson has to use inner guidance as well, but not from the head

which would totally reject it: it is common knowledge amongst them,

apparently, that postpartum women should ingest 30 - 40 POUNDS of

clarified butter the first 3 months after childbirth!

Hmm,30 + into 3 months is about 10 lbs a month or maybe 2.5 lbs a

week. If she is given ghee (sometimes we use sesame oil, occasionally

other fats) in all her foods, her hot milk tonics, and generously in

her sweets - like puddings and moist butter halvas and later,

shortbread cookies and the like, it is not so hard to immagine we do

use something like this in our postpartum cooking!

It is not just about nourishment, it is a very specific therapy used

at certain times in various ways in Ayurveda depending upon the

situation. In this case, after birth, it is the best and most

appropriate cleanse, nourish and lube job. It works by helping

tissues and organs nautralize acidity, protects by neutralizing and

ushering out the many life-stress petrochemical and other lipid like

toxins, eliminates wastes in combination with the other postpartum

care modalities (massage, heat, rest, moisture, agni support), easily

move back into place, while in very fragile condition and function,

keep from getting congested, her own hormonal big time changes, and

calcium absorption, as well as provide the best vata pacifying and

nourishing food for her baby, whether in fore or hind milk.

Blessings;

Ysha

>this point- this is the fat-carb ratio with longer

interval feeding, ie, the fat comes last. On shorter interval feeding

the fat has not yet resorbed, and the fat will be found also in

foremilk. This is my understanding of the physiology of human

lactation.

May 7, 2006

Martha: as a Vata myself, this doesn't sound at all unusual. We don't fill up on

dry food like crackers, craving warm oily foods, sauces, etc. So we can easily

take in that much fats. Vicky

-

Martha Oakes

ayurveda

Saturday, May 06, 2006 12:45 PM

PerinatalAyurveda forum Re: Qs on breastfeeding, infant digestion,

and immunizations