Organic vs Inorganic

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 23/1/02 15:18:06 GMT Standard Time, wayne

writes:

 

Organic to me means exactly that - absolutely NO fertilisers, pesticides or

chemicals at all or I do not buy it.

Marianne

 

> I don't mean to open a can or worms or destroy anyones concept of

> " organic produce " . I realize the issue about

> pesticides and chemicals is a real concern.

>

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I don't mean to open a can or worms or destroy anyones concept of

" organic produce " . I realize the issue about

pesticides and chemicals is a real concern.

 

But many have the wrong concept of " organic fertilize " .

 

A molecule of nitrogen is a molecule of nitrogen, no matter where it

comes from.

 

 

Here is a bit of information.

 

===============

Can somebody explain by what means the 'organic' nutrients are broken down

into 'inorganic' elements in a hydroponic soup? According to Dr. Resh in his

book Hydroponic Food Production fourth edition, fungal and bacterial

decomposition is necessary to convert organic matter into what he refers to

as decomposed minerals. He goes on to say that there is no physiological

difference between plants grown with minerals from either source. In a soil

system the bacteria and fungal resources are found in the soil, where are

they in the hydroponic system? Is there any difference between any mineral

produced through decomposition of organic matter and those minerals produced

by other means. And if there be no difference then what is the case for the

organic cause?

 

========================

[Guest guest]

Evening Marianne,

 

>Organic to me means exactly that - absolutely NO fertilisers,

 

A plant does not grow without nutrients. The term " fertilizer " , it

somewhat a general term, just like nutrients.

 

There exist " organic fertilizer " products. When we use the

term nutrients, electronics, building materials, ect,

we have in fact said nothing. We have only created an image of a category

type. When dealing with chemistry,

nutrition, or electronics, we have to get more specific. For example, a

diode, a capacitor, a transformer, ect, then all parties know what we are

talking about. The same is true with nutrients.

 

So, ..... without fertilize, ( nutrients for plants ) nothing grows,

nothing matures, and we have nothing to eat.

 

The world cannot be fed with organic food, as it is defined today. With

major changes, new discoveries, and even new sciences, this could

change. I work with research centers and colleges that are always trying

to accomplish the impossible. Often I help them.

 

Still, do not confuse fertilize with being non-organic or organic.

 

There does exist some accepted legal definitions of " organic produce " . But

rest assured no chemist in the world today can tell the difference in the

atomic structure of elements whether they came from " organic "

or " non-organic " sources. They are one and the same.

 

The plant cannot tell the difference, nor can humans.

 

The one advantage of " organic mixes " commonly called fertilize is that some

trace minerals may exist and even elements not yet discovered or identified

by man. Yes, I use organic materials anytime I can get them.

 

>pesticides or chemicals at all or I do not buy it.

 

This is a different ball game. Pesticides is one thing, ( read bad

chemicals if you desire ) but chemicals is another thing.

 

Possibly you want to think of chemicals as many made pesticides or

fertilizers. I would not think this way.

Even the good stuff from the organic materials is in fact chemicals or

maybe we should say compounds and elements.

 

The difference is, you want the nutrients for your produce to be " nature

made " , and not " man made " . When this happens the micro-organisms in the

soil have to convert the nature made materials to exactly the same thing

that man makes with his " chemical fertilize " .

 

Of course all of this is wishful thinking. I don't there is a person

here that does not eat some food each day that was produced by man made

chemicals, ( chemical fertilize ) and very likely some of these items

were in fact sprayed with pesticides of some sort.

 

Generally, I use as little chemicals and pesticides as

possible. However, I do use man made fertilize. I have done a lot of

experimenting with various ppm concentrations over the years.

 

I have been able to make cherry tomato clusters fork into 5 full size

clusters. Here is a picture of the cherry

tomatoes. http://www.fugitt.com/chertom.htm .... This plant was grown in

1 gallon of media. Yes, most of the media was man made or man modified. Of

course man cannot make anything. He can only change it in form.

So, " man made " is a bad term.

 

More pictures or various plants....... http://www.fugitt.com/ig_pics.htm

 

On full size tomatoes, I have been able to produce clusters as close

together as one inch. Some of these clusters set 9 to 12 tomatoes per

cluster. In one growing season, I have measured 37 feet of main stalk on

one tomato plant.

This does not include the lateral growth, only the main stalk.

 

I would challenge anyone to equal these results with organic mixes of

any type. The reason being, they cannot even determine the ppm of the

nutrients, ( by normal means ) and they will have a hard time increasing

the nutrient items by 50, 100 or 200 ppm as I have done to produce

specific results.

 

Plant nutrition is similar to human nutrition. If I make a mistake, I

only kill a plant, not a human being.

 

Some people have a license to do this with humans, unfortunately.

 

Wayne

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

-

" Wayne Fugitt " <wayne

 

Wednesday, January 23, 2002 8:55 AM

Organic vs Inorganic

 

 

>

> I don't mean to open a can or worms or destroy anyones concept of

> " organic produce " . I realize the issue about

> pesticides and chemicals is a real concern.

>

> But many have the wrong concept of " organic fertilize " .

>

> A molecule of nitrogen is a molecule of nitrogen, no matter where it

> comes from.

>

 

I fully agree the term " organic " is really a bad choice in words.

As my friend (a synthetic organic chemist) once said " Ill give a year of my

salary to anyone who shows me an inorganic peach or carrot " .

 

For reason of the term " organic " & its misuse, I resisted switching

over to organic produce & meats for decades. Because of cost, too -- to be

totally honest here. But I finally came around because of realizing that

no matter how stupid the name " organic " -- I really should not be eating so

much pesticides, growth hormones & anti-biotics given to meat animals. Also

the endemic salmonella in eggs is an outgrowth of antibiotic immunity

because of giving chickens a diet of continuous antibiotics.

 

BTW, I do believe there is a difference in fertilizers as well.

Not that the plant cares from whence it gets its Nitrogen, but because

manure contains lots of stuff not found in Ammonium Nitrate. Some of the

stuff in manure is living & contributes to the ecology in the soil around

the plants. The rich loam around manure fed plants is filled with

beneficial bacteria & worms which greatly improve the plants' living

environment & help the plants to be more healthy, and therefore more tasty &

more nutritious. The first time I visited a commercial farm as a kid, I

saw the ground looked all wrong. It was not friable (lumps of soil would

not crumble in my hand) & the fields were not filled with diverse life. No

worms. No birds. No insects. No other plantlife around the base of the

crop plants. It was all dead.

 

Alobar

[Guest guest]

Evening Alobar,

 

You make some good points, and I don't necessarily disagree with any of

them. I will comment

and add some details on two or three.

 

Hopefully, if we have a chemist around, can correct me if I am wrong. A

chemist I am not.

 

I fully agree the term " organic " is really a bad choice in words.

>As my friend (a synthetic organic chemist) once said " Ill give a year of my

>salary to anyone who shows me an inorganic peach or carrot " .

He said it all, and could certainly write a lengthy book to confirm

his statement.

 

 

> For reason of the term " organic " & its misuse,

>no matter how stupid the name " organic " -- I really should not be eating so

>much pesticides, growth hormones & anti-biotics given to meat animals.

 

Somewhere, someone, must have defined " organic " to mean pesticide

free. Most of us think organic

means pesticide free, organic fertilizer, and free from everything bad.

 

As you said, the term has been misused and has too broad a

definition. The term needs to be scrapped and 3 or 4 others coined to

replace it.

 

> BTW, I do believe there is a difference in fertilizers as well.

>Not that the plant cares from whence it gets its Nitrogen, but because

>manure contains lots of stuff not found in Ammonium Nitrate.

 

Plants cannot use Ammonia Nitrogen. Seems that is NH4. It must be

changed, broken down by the micro organisms to become Nitrate Nitrogen

(NH3). Thus, anyone that uses Ammonia form of Nitrogen must wait a spell

for the plants to feed.

 

To solve this problem most of us technical growers use Calcium Nitrate

which is Nitrate nitrogen and immediately water soluble. It could be

traveling throughout the plant within minutes, if not seconds. We even use

if for folar applications in a weak solution.

 

I think manure is ammonia nitrogen as well. I know it smells like ammonia.

 

> Some of the stuff in manure is living & contributes to the ecology in

> the soil around

>the plants. The rich loam around manure fed plants is filled with

>beneficial bacteria & worms which greatly improve the plants' living

>environment & help the plants to be more healthy,

 

When I moved to this location in 1980, I purchased and planted worms

around all my fruit trees, grape vines, and in the garden spot. After the

soil is passed thru the earthworm, it supposedly contains 10 times more

nitrogen.

 

I still see many of these large worms, undoubtedly, descendents of my

1980 planting, near 22 years later.

 

>and therefore more tasty & more nutritious.

 

This may be true. A year or so ago, the father of a friend visited my

garden. I gave him a good supply of

tomatoes. This guy was 80 years old. Later he stated these were the best

tomatoes he had eaten in his whole life.

He must have raised soil grown tomatoes for close to 50 years. My plants

were not soil grown, but instead were grown in bags of ground pine

bark. However they are fed liquid nutrients about every hour during the

daylight hours. I would not call this " organic growing " .

 

> The first time I visited a commercial farm as a kid, I

>saw the ground looked all wrong. It was not friable (lumps of soil would

>not crumble in my hand) & the fields were not filled with diverse life.

 

Sometimes we have dirt and sometimes we have soil. Often people grow

things in dirt that is void of organic matter and micro

organisms. Actually we prefer to call it " growing media " . I mix a media

which I call

" witches brew " for growing media. It is better than most soil and better

than most commercial media.

 

One can take common dirt and make a soil or media that is suitable for

growing. He must add manure, other organic material, and often sand. The

3 components of soil are, sand, silt, and clay. If these are too much out

of balance, problems will result.

 

Keep in mind that it takes nature 1 million years to make one inch of

topsoil.

 

One last thought, Okra is one of my favorite crops. I grow okra with my

modified hydroponic system. This produces some unbelievable good okra.

 

Wayne