Digest Number 530

[Guest guest]

Frank,

 

Over the years I was added as modertaor to ust two lists just because of my

comments. I thought this was one when I suggested that one poster here

should be moderated --then I checked up later when another poster said I was

too harsh. And .....

 

Anyway there is a way to put a single member on " moderated status " with

.

 

Regards, Lorenzo

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

In the book " Contemporary and

Acupuncture " (©2002), acupuncturist and researcher

Claire Cassidy Ph.D., Dipl.Ac, L.Ac. (FNAAOM)

describes the risks of some points. She includes some

of the following information:

 

1. Deep puncture is not advisable for points located

below the occiput (to avoid harming the brainstem).

2. BL23/51 , the AEP bilaterally located near the

kidneys, is vulnerable to deep needle insertion or

vigorous manipulation.

3.Points over the lungs, heart, liver and other vital

organs must be needled with appropriate technique.

4. Some are contraindicated in certain conditions

(e.g., pregnancy) because they are local and may cause

injury to the enlarged uterus…or could produce strong

stimuli including contraction of the uterus (e.g. CO4)

 

5. ST-17 is solely a landmark for locating other

points in the chest area

6. CV8 is only for moxibustion

 

Among the adverse effects she includes: " transient

hypotension, manifested during the treatment as

dizziness, discomfort, sweating and sometimes

syncope, " bruising, bleeding, fainting and death.

 

" Only one death has been reliably linked to

acupuncture performed by a certified acupuncturist. "

It took place in Australia as a result of improper

angle and depth of insertion on CV-17 that led to

puncturing of the heart. Other deaths were due to

pneumothorax or nonsterile needles. She also reports

that

 

" estimates of serious harm from pharmaceuticals in

hospitalized patients vary from a low of 1% to a high

of 30% in different studies, but major complications

of acupuncture have been estimated as between 1:10,000

to 1:100,000...Even if one presumes that only 1% of

the actual Australian adverse events to traditional

Chinese medicine are reported, hen the number of cases

currently on record over the past 20 years multiplied

by 100 would not reach the numbr of adverse events due

to pharmaceutical drugs in one year of medical

practice. "

 

I highly recommend Cassidy's book for its research and

statistical value. It is also great in its ability to

explain acupuncture issues in terms that are helpful

in integrated medical settings where other types of

practitioners may be concerned about the risks and

effectiveness of our treatments.

CathyB

 

 

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo

http://search.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/27/04 4:03:51 AM,

Chinese Medicine writes:

 

<< One of my favorite teachers said to me, " treat what you see and the rest

will follow " . Simple, but direct.

 

Hope this helps a little,

 

David >>

 

Thanks David - Hi Laura

I was about to say the same thing. It is so easy to chase after named

diseases and conditions. (I know, after 18 years of practice, I have watched

myself

get caught into the trap on numerous occassions) BUT, if you can just

remember what you have learned and treat what you see everything else will

rectify

itself, no matter the issue. I have been incredibly successful with infertility

cases from numerous causes with many patients holding proclamations by their

Medical Doctors that they would never become pregnant or carry a baby full

term no matter the intervention...and I agree, due to their depleted qi and

blood state and/or stagnations. The difference is the we can offer a treatment

for

their condition. There are no special formulas or secrets, build the qi and

blood, resolve any stagnations and co-ordinate the functioning of all systems

and a body can function quite remarkably. Trust the pulse, the tongue and your

ability to listen to what the patient tells you. By the way, i have treated

with herbs and without herbs (some patients are very skiddish about herbs and

pregnancy)...treating with herbs will get you quicker results, but needles

alone will also work especially if the patient can rest and help in the

restorative process.

robbee

[Guest guest]

David and Robbi -

 

I think something needs some clearing up here. When I asked questions

to Laura regarding different aspects her patients' Western pathology,

it is not because I advocate treating the patient according to their

Western Disease Diagnosis. However, to bypass an adequate intake

regarding a patient's fertility history is not professional nor helpful

for the patient seeking help. Most Western Diagnosis of Infertility can

be attributed to several distinct TCM patterns/differential diagnosis.

Of course, it is rarely as simple as the text-book patterns, but we

have to start somewhere. If there were no reason to attempt to

differentiate according to the accepted parameters given in

OBGYN/Infertility clinics in China as they relate to specific Western

Infertility Diagnosis, then why do we bother to learn Chinese Internal

Medicine differential diagnostic patterns, or Orthopedic differential

diagnosis? Why do they even bother to have different departments in

China such as Oncology, Rheumatology, Gynecology, Internal Medicine,

etc.? I would suggest that it is because there are differences in the

treatment approaches of these different western diseases and their bian

zheng. Truly - at the most basic level it is about qi/blood/yin/yang,

pulse, tongue, etc. This is why it is very difficult to diagnose a

patient remotely with TCM. However, when I am supervising Interns in

clinic, or when I have newly licensed practitioners do a residency with

me in my clinic, to suggest to them to just treat what you see is not

all that helpful. In China, In Japan, In Korea - new practitioners have

the opportunity to practice with - and under - the supervision of

senior doctors (usually specialists in their area of treatment) so that

than can learn to see correctly. I studied with Dr. Shen for a fair

amount of time - as I think you did Robbi - and I can assure you that

there were many times I did not see what he saw in the patient, partly

because I did not have as much experience as he did diagnostically.

Also, I think that the patient history - western and tcm - inform the

pulse and tongue, not the other way around. At least that's how Dr.

Shen did it.

 

If you read what I wrote to Laura closely, you will see that I mainly

suggested questions to ask for further clarification, and I recommended

a couple of books by TCM practitioners who treat Infertility

exclusively in their practices. No matter what disease we are

assessing, although we are diagnosing and treating according to the

principles of TCM, we owe it to our patients to be informed about the

basic western diagnosis and treatment of that disease. For example: If

a female patient presents to me with a history of infertility, and I

can see from her BBT chart and hormone levels that she is ovulating,

and it comes out in her health history that she has possibly had PID or

chlamydial infection in the past, I am going to recommend that she have

a hysterosalpinogram to rule out whether or not she has fallopian tube

stenosis - whether or not I see or feel blood stasis in her tongue or

pulse. In fact, this level of blood stasis does not usually show up in

the tongue or pulse. Can TCM treat fallopian tube stenosis if that is

the case - sometimes yes, sometimes no. However, it is the patient's

right to know and choose given all of the options. If it is an older

patient who's odds for pregnancy are decreasing rapidly, it might be

more ethical to offer TCM as supportive care for the most optimal

endometrium and let the patient take the expedient course of IVF to

bypass the fallopian tube(s). This is just one example of how doing a

thorough western intake might inform the TCM diagnosis and treatment -

for the best interest of the patient.

 

I love and respect the practice of TCM, and we must always treat our

patients accordingly, but if there are Western diagnostics and

treatments, and the wisdom of more senior practitioners in a field

such as Jane Lyttleton and Randine Lewis, I think it can only help us

and the patients we serve.

 

I hope this clears things up,

 

Ray Rubio

 

 

 

On Jun 27, 2004, at 1:32 PM, TashiDelay wrote:

 

>

> In a message dated 6/27/04 4:03:51 AM,

> Chinese Medicine writes:

>

> << One of my favorite teachers said to me, " treat what you see and the

> rest

> will follow " . Simple, but direct.

>

> Hope this helps a little,

>

> David >>

>

> Thanks David - Hi Laura

> I was about to say the same thing. It is so easy to chase after named

> diseases and conditions. (I know, after 18 years of practice, I have

> watched myself

> get caught into the trap on numerous occassions) BUT, if you can just

> remember what you have learned and treat what you see everything else

> will rectify

> itself, no matter the issue. I have been incredibly successful with

> infertility

> cases from numerous causes with many patients holding proclamations by

> their

> Medical Doctors that they would never become pregnant or carry a baby

> full

> term no matter the intervention...and I agree, due to their depleted

> qi and

> blood state and/or stagnations. The difference is the we can offer a

> treatment for

> their condition. There are no special formulas or secrets, build the

> qi and

> blood, resolve any stagnations and co-ordinate the functioning of all

> systems

> and a body can function quite remarkably. Trust the pulse, the tongue

> and your

> ability to listen to what the patient tells you. By the way, i have

> treated

> with herbs and without herbs (some patients are very skiddish about

> herbs and

> pregnancy)...treating with herbs will get you quicker results, but

> needles

> alone will also work especially if the patient can rest and help in the

> restorative process.

> robbee

>

>

>

> Membership requires that you do not post any commerical, swear,

> religious, spam messages,flame another member or swear.

>

>

> http://babel.altavista.com/

>

>

> and

> adjust accordingly.

>

> If you , it takes a few days for the messages to stop being

> delivered.

>

>