Guest guest Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 Hi The thing that has puzzled me in this is how any of these explanations deal with external application of qi gong as a therapy (practitioner to patient transfer of energy, or at least manipulation of a patients energy), presuming of course one buys into that at all. Does the nominal biochemical nature of qi relegate all that to the placebo bin? I work in an office where we have a man who does a sui generis ki pushing therapy which has proved fairly effective in dealing with a variety of problems (mostly cancer). I'm frankly not sure how much of it I buy into, but I assure you he's not doing it for the money, and his treatments have worked on dogs as well as people. Harvard has been spending some money trying to figure out what he's doing (MRI's and video so far, I think), and I can assure you that they're generally pretty tightfisted and don't put up with much fakey crap, though they are on the cutting edge of placebo research... and if anybody figures out how to overcharge for sugar pills it will be someone from Harvard. I think that qi gong moves qi and blood, but so does exercise. The sensation may be blood flow, that's as likely as anything, but somehow the activity of qi gong or yoga allows a person to control that movement, which would indicate an ability having to do with information. Why the ability to regulate blood flow in the body would create a greater potential for generating an electromagnetic effect is ponderable, and practitioners seem to be able to " project " more qi than other people. My limited experience with qi gong has been that the " force " I've felt was most similar to magnetic resistance or attraction, and that the force I could project to others was perceived as a pressure rather than heat (the thermal sensations generated seem highly variable, just like with de qi) and my extremity is not abnormally warm feeling to me. I'm open to the possibility that these are thermal sensations, but I use some thermal off body diagnosis as described by Jean Pierre Barral (sp?) the French osteopath and visceral manipulation maven, and I think it feels different. I wouldn't rule out the fact that I'm a total froot loop here, but I think it has been verified that the external application of qi is able to effect tissue not just at acupoints, but broad areas that are focused on in a variety of ways and in vitro as well (though those cells in agar agar are notorious suckers for attention so placebo effect is probably pretty strong here). If I can dig up research to this effect it would argue for a non biochemical model, or at least a model that uses some sort of electromagnetic (or other) phase to transmit information over a distance, or faster than a chemical model would allow for. So I guess if we say " it's all neurovascular " I'd have to ask how information gets from person to person, apart from placebo that is. There has to be some way for individual cells to get this information directly as well, whether it's electromagnetic entrainment or something else, I don't know. Par - " " < Tuesday, March 09, 2004 12:50 PM qi gong > We know qi gong is used to move qi and blood. and that the mind is > involved in this activity. we also know that the neurological and > vascular systems are quite responsive to cerebral control as shown by > biofeedback experiments. perhaps internal qi gong phenomena are > actually completely neurovascular in nature. we know yogis say they > can control internal organ activity with their mind. if one looks > inward and senses flow, doesn't it make the most sense that what one is > feeling is one's blood flow, rather than some other force. > > > Chinese Herbs > > > FAX: > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2004 Report Share Posted March 9, 2004 , " Par Scott " <parufus@e...> wrote: > Hi > > The thing that has puzzled me in this is how any of these explanations deal > with external application of qi gong as a therapy (practitioner to patient > transfer of energy, or at least manipulation of a patients energy), > presuming of course one buys into that at all. yeah. me too. I made some speculations in another post. And I have always wondered where external qi gong fits into CM. . How prominent has it been historically. It does not seem to be a topic in any of the translated material from earlier eras that I read. I am referring to regularly cited texts and physicians. It doesn't seem to come up in the wen bing xue or shang han lun. Internal qi gong or something like it is discussed in the nei jing, but not external. The ma wang dui texts likewise talk about internal practices similar to qi gong, but not external. though I am no historian, it strikes me that external qi gong is an aspect of so-called religious taoism as opposed to the philosophical taoism of lao zi or of CM, per se. religious taoism was the haven for a wide range of practitioners of various arts like feng shui, magic, divination, laying on of hands, astrology, martial arts, alchemy, immortality, etc. Not that such arts do not have validity in their own right, just that they many of them sailed under the banner of taoism (and were generally frowned upon by confucian gentlemen). so with external qi gong being common in china but marginal in the mainstream practice of medicine, I wonder how much stock we can put in the body of literature that exists on this topic. It has not quite gone through nearly the same " peer review " , so to speak, as the literature on herbs and acupuncture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2004 Report Share Posted March 10, 2004 So I guess if we say " it's all neurovascular " I'd have to ask how information gets from person to person, apart from placebo that is. There has to be some way for individual cells to get this information directly as well, whether it's electromagnetic entrainment or something else, I don't know. >>>>There have been studies on touch therapy and documented electromag influences by both the practitioner over the patient and vis versa. As usual however, they were of poor quality in general alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Hi Brian, take a look on Mantak Chia`s qi gong courses, specially Iron Shirt Qi Gong, his courses are very good, very effective. The Chi Nei Tsang massage is also quite good. see: http://www.universal-tao.com/tao/index.html Much Qi to you, Marcos --- mischievous00 <mischievous00 escreveu: > I would like to learn a form of qi gong that is effective in > building my own internal qi so that when I learn and start to > practice external qi gong that I may be stronger. > > I have heard about 2 forms, Falun Gong and Swimming Dragon. > > I would like any of your opinions on the above styles, as well > as > any other forms or styles that may be recommended. > > Thanks > > Brian > _____ Messenger 6.0 - jogos, emoticons sonoros e muita diversão. Instale agora! http://br.download./messenger/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see Falun Gong as an organisation that has used Qigong rather than a form of Qigong. There are thousands of forms of Qigong and practically all claim to be the best. Find a teacher that makes Qigong theory understandable and practice enjoyable...this is probably the best Way for you. Kind regards Dermot - " mischievous00 " <mischievous00 <Chinese Medicine > Saturday, September 18, 2004 4:50 PM Qi Gong > I would like to learn a form of qi gong that is effective in > building my own internal qi so that when I learn and start to > practice external qi gong that I may be stronger. > > I have heard about 2 forms, Falun Gong and Swimming Dragon. > > I would like any of your opinions on the above styles, as well as > any other forms or styles that may be recommended. > > Thanks > > Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2004 Report Share Posted September 18, 2004 Marcos Thanks for the information. What is the difference between the 2 styles that you mentioned. Also, is it important to purhcase all 3 series of the iron shirt or would the first one be adequate. What is the length of time it takes to go thru the daily exercises Thanks Brian marcos <ishk18 wrote: Hi Brian, take a look on Mantak Chia`s qi gong courses, specially Iron Shirt Qi Gong, his courses are very good, very effective. The Chi Nei Tsang massage is also quite good. see: http://www.universal-tao.com/tao/index.html Much Qi to you, Marcos --- mischievous00 <mischievous00 escreveu: > I would like to learn a form of qi gong that is effective in > building my own internal qi so that when I learn and start to > practice external qi gong that I may be stronger. > > I have heard about 2 forms, Falun Gong and Swimming Dragon. > > I would like any of your opinions on the above styles, as well > as > any other forms or styles that may be recommended. > > Thanks > > Brian > _____ Messenger 6.0 - jogos, emoticons sonoros e muita diversão. Instale agora! http://br.download./messenger/ Post message: Chinese Traditional Medicine Subscribe: Chinese Traditional Medicine- Un: Chinese Traditional Medicine- List owner: Chinese Traditional Medicine-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/Chinese Traditional Medicine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Hi Brian, I would agree with Dermot. Find a teacher that you like and enjoy the exercises. I think that the book " Qigong for Health " defines Qigong practice pretty nicely: " All types of Qigong can be divided into either Jinggong (passive training) whre the body remains motionless, or Donggon (active training), where the body is moved. " " The one word Qigong, therefore, encompasses a broad range of exercise systems for developing Qi, but all these methods have three basic elements or principles in common. THese principles are Diaoshen , which means to adjust or prepare posture), Diaxi, which means to adjust or regulate breath, and Diaoxin, which means to adjust or calm the mind. Each method of Qigong has its special featurem and each method emphasizes slightly different aspects ... " If you are interested in specific texts or videos, I can recommend the ones that I like. Not so much to learn from, but to get a taste of the different types of Qigong. Regards, Rich Chinese Medicine , " Dermot O'Connor " <dermot@a...> wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see Falun Gong as an organisation that has > used Qigong rather than a form of Qigong. > > There are thousands of forms of Qigong and practically all claim to be the > best. Find a teacher that makes Qigong theory understandable and practice > enjoyable...this is probably the best Way for you. > > Kind regards > > Dermot > > > - > " mischievous00 " <mischievous00> > <Chinese Medicine > > Saturday, September 18, 2004 4:50 PM > Qi Gong > > > > I would like to learn a form of qi gong that is effective in > > building my own internal qi so that when I learn and start to > > practice external qi gong that I may be stronger. > > > > I have heard about 2 forms, Falun Gong and Swimming Dragon. > > > > I would like any of your opinions on the above styles, as well as > > any other forms or styles that may be recommended. > > > > Thanks > > > > Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Hi Brian By " internal " do you mean static-meditative? The Swimming Dragon I know is a moving form, quite easy to perform. Not sure about Fa Lun Gong. It was my experience that mastering the moving forms first is actually easier. By doing so, you train your qi and internal perception of qi by the physical feedback of movement (moving of qi). To master internal forms, one must already have some ability to project and move qi within their bodies using intention only--no movement. Some people can do this naturally, others not. Pretty much all the movement forms train the qi and can increase the qi when done correctly, IMO. The shorter forms tend to be easier to learn, of course--8 Brocades, Liang Gong Shi Ba Fa, Swimming Dragon and other short warm-up type exercises. Some forms are " static " in that they require assuming a posture and holding it as in Iron Shirt. These tend to vary in difficulty and utility at beginning levels of practice depending on which posture, how long you can hold it (not easy without previous body-knowledge of qi) and concurrent activities--breath work, PC muscle involvement. Practicing Tai Qi first can also make learning Qi Gong more meaningful more quickly. Tai Qi's movements tend to be more connected with a specific external intent (martial) and, IMO, make more sense to the body while learning to perceive and use your qi properly. The internal-meditative forms I learned included Mantak Chia's Fusion of the Five Elements, Micro/Macro Cosmic Orbits. These, I have found, very effective for balancing/purifying/strengthening my own qi but they do require an ability to meditate and perceive, project and manipulate Qi in general, IMO, to be truly effective. Hope this helps. Regards, Shanna , " mischievous00 " <mischievous00> wrote: > I would like to learn a form of qi gong that is effective in > building my own internal qi so that when I learn and start to > practice external qi gong that I may be stronger. > > I have heard about 2 forms, Falun Gong and Swimming Dragon. > > I would like any of your opinions on the above styles, as well as > any other forms or styles that may be recommended. > > Thanks > > Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2004 Report Share Posted September 19, 2004 Hi, Brian , How about our medical qigong? Guigen Qigong : http://www.g321g.org guigen_qigong Qigong Department, Xiyuan Hospital, Beijing. Guigen - mischievous00 Chinese Medicine Saturday, September 18, 2004 11:50 PM Qi Gong I would like to learn a form of qi gong that is effective in building my own internal qi so that when I learn and start to practice external qi gong that I may be stronger. I have heard about 2 forms, Falun Gong and Swimming Dragon. I would like any of your opinions on the above styles, as well as any other forms or styles that may be recommended. Thanks Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Hi Brian, In Iron Shirt, you open the eight extra-meridians, it is for self-practice, the first series is quite enough, it is good to do other courses, as preparation, such as Inner Smile, Six Healing Sounds(one for each Zang organ), and Chi Self massage,they harmonize our organs and their associated emotions, for if our emotions are unbalanced, the greater energy in our system will energize them also. The Chi Nei Tsang is an abdominal massage technique on others that deals with, what you could call " delerict qi " , or " winds " , that can upset the inner balance of energy in our systems, and you have to have good level of Qi to do it properly and safely. The length of time would depend upon which and how many practices one does. The basic Iron Shirt, with(preferably)Inner Smile practice for an initial harmonization could take(with practice) about 30 minutes. Hopes this helps, Marcos --- Brian Hardy <mischievous00 escreveu: > Marcos > > Thanks for the information. What is the difference between the > 2 styles that you mentioned. Also, is it important to purhcase > all 3 series of the iron shirt or would the first one be > adequate. > > What is the length of time it takes to go thru the daily > exercises > > Thanks > > Brian > > marcos <ishk18 wrote: > Hi Brian, > take a look on Mantak Chia`s qi gong courses, specially Iron > Shirt Qi Gong, his courses are very good, very effective. The > Chi > Nei Tsang massage is also quite good. > see: > http://www.universal-tao.com/tao/index.html > > Much Qi to you, > Marcos > > --- mischievous00 <mischievous00 escreveu: > > I would like to learn a form of qi gong that is effective in > > building my own internal qi so that when I learn and start to > > > practice external qi gong that I may be stronger. > > > > I have heard about 2 forms, Falun Gong and Swimming Dragon. > > > > I would like any of your opinions on the above styles, as > well > > as > > any other forms or styles that may be recommended. > > > > Thanks > > > > Brian _____ Messenger 6.0 - jogos, emoticons sonoros e muita diversão. Instale agora! http://br.download./messenger/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Hi, Quite impressive. I hope that I will be able to visit some day. Regards, Rich Chinese Medicine , " guigen_qigong " <guigen_qigong@g...> wrote: > Hi, Brian , > > How about our medical qigong? > Guigen Qigong : > http://www.g321g.org guigen_qigong@g... > Qigong Department, Xiyuan Hospital, Beijing. > > Guigen > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 Thank you, Rich, Welcome! We just trained 3 groups from US, Australia, this month. Regards Guigen - Rich Chinese Medicine Monday, September 20, 2004 10:33 AM Re: Qi Gong Hi, Quite impressive. I hope that I will be able to visit some day. Regards, Rich Chinese Medicine , " guigen_qigong " <guigen_qigong@g...> wrote: > Hi, Brian , > > How about our medical qigong? > Guigen Qigong : > http://www.g321g.org guigen_qigong@g... > Qigong Department, Xiyuan Hospital, Beijing. > > Guigen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 I've found " The Way of Qigong " by Kennith S. Cohen to be very good at explaining a basic foundation of Qigong practice. The price I paid for my copy in 1997 was $14.95 In it Cohen provides history, meditative and active Qigong. He even suggests a schedule of various routines one can try in order to moderately incorporate Qigong into one's lifestyle. His suggestions include a week by week process with estimated duration of practice to the various forms. I found the illustrations and explainations of the active Qigong to be very clear and understandable. He includes extensive notes and a bibliography at the end of the book if you wish to take your studies deeper. Penel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2004 Report Share Posted September 20, 2004 " hyldemoer " <hyldemoer wrote: > I've found " The Way of Qigong " by Kennith S. Cohen to be very good > at explaining a basic foundation of Qigong practice. > The price I paid for my copy in 1997 was $14.95 > > In it Cohen provides history, meditative and active Qigong. > He even suggests a schedule of various routines one can try in > order to moderately incorporate Qigong into one's lifestyle. His > suggestions include a week by week process with estimated duration > of practice to the various forms. > > I found the illustrations and explainations of the active Qigong to > be very clear and understandable. He includes extensive notes and a > > bibliography at the end of the book if you wish to take your > studies deeper. > > Penel He has a video available which is based on the book, I think. They can be ordered from the usual outlets and Cohen also has a website, though I don't have the link for it, with these and other material for sale. A search should turn it up easily enough. sue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 > > I've found " The Way of Qigong " by Kennith S. Cohen to be very good > > at explaining a basic foundation of Qigong practice. <big snip> > He has a video available which is based on the book, I think. They > can be ordered from the usual outlets and Cohen also has a website, > though I don't have the link for it, with these and other material > for sale. A search should turn it up easily enough. I have a set of his cassette tapes that are put out by Sounds True, " The Practice of Gigong Meditation and Healing " . They also seem to present things found in his book. The cassettes are a good suppliment to the book for the meditations , though more expensive ($39.95). Penel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 There many styles of Chi Kung practice that have been used for centuries - all have as their objective the strengethening of the meridians. Mantak Chia's system has been created for modern western practioners it is a systematic system that should be practiced in steps - each step should be followed for from 3 to 6 months - then move on to the next step. There are many teachers of this system throughout the world. Any Chi Kung system can be practiced independantly for the whole life. One excellent simple system is the one taught by Dr. Nan Lu. Dr. Lu is the director of TCM World Foundation in new York. He calls his system The Dragon's Way - and his basic Chi Kung system is called Wu Ming Meridian Therapy Qigong. Dr. Lu is an authantic practioner himself and has a deep understanding of both traditional sytems as well as their application to modern western people. He also does phone consultations for prescribing herbs, diet, and Chi Kung practice. Dr. Lu is the real thing (unfortunately there are many tteachers who have not realized the promise of the systems they teach). The best thing about Dr. Lu's system is that it just takes a few minutes 2 times per day to recieve full benefit. I consider his system to be the essence of all Chi Kung practice. Mantak Chia is also the real thing - I saw him perform amazing fetes of endurance in San Francisco a few years ago - he and his wife both are advanced practioners. They have written important books on sexual Chi Kung (although I do not recommend that anyone practice sexual Chi Kung without the guidance of an advanced practioner as it like breathing exercises has a potential for being harmful if the laws concerning the science are not clearly understood). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2004 Report Share Posted September 21, 2004 Chi Nei Tsang is one of the most advanced forms and can be practiced to great benefit by everyone but is especially helpful for those who suffer from complicated stress disorders (CFS, Fibromyalgia, metabolic defeciencies, mental disorders etc.). Anyone suffering from anxiety states should learn this science. If anyone feels that exercise is too difficult for them then this is definately one of the potential answers - it can be practiced laying in the bed. Remember this is a science and the rules should be followed. Mantak Chia' book is perfect for ordinary practioners. For advanced practioners and professionals a more advanced exposition of this science is found in the book 'Hara Diagnosis: Reflections on the Sea' by Kiiko Matsumoto & Steven Birch (probably available at amazon.com).. The Chi Nei Tsang is an abdominal massage > technique on others that deals with, what you could call > " delerict qi " , or " winds " , that can upset the inner balance of > energy in our systems, and you have to have good level of Qi to > do it properly and safely. The length of time would depend upon > which and how many practices one does. The basic Iron Shirt, > with(preferably)Inner Smile practice for an initial harmonization > could take(with practice) about 30 minutes. > Hopes this helps, > Marcos > > --- Brian Hardy <mischievous00> escreveu: > > Marcos > > > > Thanks for the information. What is the difference between the > > 2 styles that you mentioned. Also, is it important to purhcase > > all 3 series of the iron shirt or would the first one be > > adequate. > > > > What is the length of time it takes to go thru the daily > > exercises > > > > Thanks > > > > Brian > > > > marcos <ishk18> wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > take a look on Mantak Chia`s qi gong courses, specially Iron > > Shirt Qi Gong, his courses are very good, very effective. The > > Chi > > Nei Tsang massage is also quite good. > > see: > > http://www.universal-tao.com/tao/index.html > > > > Much Qi to you, > > Marcos > > > > --- mischievous00 <mischievous00> escreveu: > > > I would like to learn a form of qi gong that is effective in > > > building my own internal qi so that when I learn and start to > > > > > practice external qi gong that I may be stronger. > > > > > > I have heard about 2 forms, Falun Gong and Swimming Dragon. > > > > > > I would like any of your opinions on the above styles, as > > well > > > as > > > any other forms or styles that may be recommended. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Brian _____ > Messenger 6.0 - jogos, emoticons sonoros e muita diversão. Instale agora! > http://br.download./messenger/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Hi everyone, I am learning TCM right now, and have been practicing Tai chi for over 2 years now. anyone practicing tai chi or qi gong? I think it's very helpful to know, when you're doing acupuncture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2004 Report Share Posted October 13, 2004 Absolutely it is helpful You can not effectively help someone else's Qi if your own is stagnated Such exercise can only make you a better practitioner doug _____ Khanh Tran [tranlaofu] Wednesday, October 13, 2004 12:14 PM acupuncture acupuncture Qi gong Hi everyone, I am learning TCM right now, and have been practicing Tai chi for over 2 years now. anyone practicing tai chi or qi gong? I think it's very helpful to know, when you're doing acupuncture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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