Guest guest Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 TCM must be cherished as part of traditional culture www.chinaview.cn 2005-01-10 09:36:12 BEIJING, Jan. 10 -- The Chinese Government's decision to apply for " world intangible heritage " status for Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) is certainly heartening news to its practitioners, and is a move expected to give a huge boost to the protection and promotion of TCM. It is reported government bodies are now working to submit an application to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO). UNESCO defines " intangible cultural heritage " as the practices, representations, expressions, knowledge and skills that communities, groups and, in some cases, individuals recognize as part of their cultural heritage. As a practice that has existed for thousands of years, TCM has long been a part of Chinese culture, not simply a branch of medical science. It has lost some of its lustre since Western-style medicine was introduced in China more than 100 years ago. Infused with many Chinese philosophical thinkings such as stressing a harmonious relationship between man and nature, TCM is still viewed by some outsiders as superstitious or pseudo science. The practice has, to some extent, given way to Western medicine and is seen as complementary to it, or alternative. The lack of standards and accurate statistics on ingredients and the length of time it takes to see results are factors holding back the development of TCM. Many people are turning their backs on the pracitce, once the only choice for Chinese when they fell ill. The number of TCM clinics is dwarfed by their Western-style counterparts, a phenomenon more acute in cities. But the above does not necessarily suggest a gloomy future for TCM. TCM's remarkable track record in treating a number of chronic diseases and severe acute respiratory syndrome, as well as its role in combating AIDS, all indicate that TCM still has a niche. The combination of TCM and Western-style medicines has been proven to be effective in treating some complex ailments which are hard to treat using just one or the other. TCM has also become accepted in more foreign countries in recent years, with China now having TCM agreements with 67 countries. And its TCM exports have grown by 5.5 per cent in the past five years. In China, TCM holds another significance. Generally, TCM is more cost-effective than Western-style medical treatment, which often requires expensive equipment. Such a cost difference may be trivial in cities, but it is crucial in rural areas where farmers can be driven to poverty by medical burdens. There is still much to be learnt from this centuries-old practice and more scientific research should be done on TCM in order to explain its seemingly magical effects in a more scientific way, thus making it more acceptable in medical terms. It is hoped that government's bidding to add it to the list of intangible heritage will promote our awareness of this rich resource that we have long taken for granted. TCM, as a part of our culture, should be cherished, be it listed or not. But getting listed is not an automatic guarantee that this precious heritage will be well protected. A case in point is the damage done to some world heritage sites after getting the much-coveted status. The best way to protect TCM from being marginalized is to develop and popularize it. The success of preserving this centuries-old traditional practice rests not only on its own development, but also on our sense of mission. When knowing the possible loss of TCM is much more than just a loss of an alternative medical treatment, but a part of our cherished culture, we have every reason to care for its future. Whether TCM will be listed or not, we are duty-bound to pass on this sometimes mysterious yet magic part of culture to following generations. (Source: China Daily) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 TCM, somewhat misnamed, is a way of life, rather than a healing system, patterned on natural energies. That it is winning acclaim and acceptance, is though welcome, but somewhat after the fact, and almost a tame innuendo. The Elemental grid encompasses not only health and illness, but also how countries govern, communities regulate daily life, people in relationships work together at harmony, or fly at each other's throat in deviation therefrom. Very many interactions on this Forum have been simply expressions of TCM in action as applied to social norms, or unsocial ones, at that. Here is the deadly knell, the toll of which will regulate traditional healing for decades to come: TCM is as vast, as profound, as the narrowest mind which controls its destiny. Dr. Holmes Keikobad MB BS DPH Ret Dip Ac NCCAOM L Ac CO & AZ 15 CEUS by Distance Seminar www.acu-free.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Hi Holmes, & All, Dr. Holmes Keikobad wrote: > Here is the deadly knell, the toll of which will regulate traditional > healing for decades to come: TCM is as vast, as profound, as the > narrowest mind which controls its destiny. I agree. We should try to broaden the term TCM into integrative medicine that embraces the best from TCM, WM, Ayurveda, chiro, homeopathy, etc. Prolonged stasis in anything is usually a sign of decay / death - except in hibernation or the wiles of a crocodile ... Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc, c/o 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Chinese Proverb: " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " -- Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.1 - Release 19/01/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 I agree. We should try to broaden the term TCM into integrative medicine that embraces the best from TCM, WM, Ayurveda, chiro, homeopathy, etc. >>>Amen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Leeapple: TCM needs to be made a viable part of daily life in order to preserve the tradition. Merely putting a label on it in no way guarantees TCM's future. Qian Xuesen, the father of China's missile program, said the science of the 21st Century will consist of ancient Chinese traditions made scientific and modernized. Let's just do our best to make TCM part of the world's daily life. Best, Jack --- leeapple301 <leeapple301 wrote: > > > TCM must be cherished as part of traditional culture > www.chinaview.cn 2005-01-10 09:36:12 > > BEIJING, Jan. 10 -- The Chinese Government's > decision to apply > for " world intangible heritage " status for > Traditional Chinese > Medicine (TCM) is certainly heartening news to its > practitioners, > and is a move expected to give a huge boost to the > protection and > promotion of TCM. > It is reported government bodies are now working > to submit an > application to the United Nations Educational, > Scientific and > Cultural Organization (UNESCO). > UNESCO defines " intangible cultural heritage " as > the practices, > representations, expressions, knowledge and skills > that communities, > groups and, in some cases, individuals recognize as > part of their > cultural heritage. > As a practice that has existed for thousands of > years, TCM has > long been a part of Chinese culture, not simply a > branch of medical > science. > It has lost some of its lustre since > Western-style medicine was > introduced in China more than 100 years ago. > Infused with many Chinese philosophical > thinkings such as > stressing a harmonious relationship between man and > nature, TCM is > still viewed by some outsiders as superstitious or > pseudo science. > The practice has, to some extent, given way to > Western medicine > and is seen as complementary to it, or alternative. > The lack of standards and accurate statistics on > ingredients and > the length of time it takes to see results are > factors holding back > the development of TCM. > Many people are turning their backs on the > pracitce, once the > only choice for Chinese when they fell ill. > The number of TCM clinics is dwarfed by their > Western-style > counterparts, a phenomenon more acute in cities. > But the above does not necessarily suggest a > gloomy future for > TCM. > TCM's remarkable track record in treating a > number of chronic > diseases and severe acute respiratory syndrome, as > well as its role > in combating AIDS, all indicate that TCM still has a > niche. > The combination of TCM and Western-style > medicines has been > proven to be effective in treating some complex > ailments which are > hard to treat using just one or the other. > TCM has also become accepted in more foreign > countries in recent > years, with China now having TCM agreements with 67 > countries. > And its TCM exports have grown by 5.5 per cent > in the past five > years. > In China, TCM holds another significance. > Generally, TCM is more cost-effective than > Western-style medical > treatment, which often requires expensive equipment. > > Such a cost difference may be trivial in cities, > but it is > crucial in rural areas where farmers can be driven > to poverty by > medical burdens. > There is still much to be learnt from this > centuries-old > practice and more scientific research should be done > on TCM in order > to explain its seemingly magical effects in a more > scientific way, > thus making it more acceptable in medical terms. > It is hoped that government's bidding to add it > to the list of > intangible heritage will promote our awareness of > this rich resource > that we have long taken for granted. > TCM, as a part of our culture, should be > cherished, be it listed > or not. > But getting listed is not an automatic guarantee > that this > precious heritage will be well protected. > A case in point is the damage done to some world > heritage sites > after getting the much-coveted status. > The best way to protect TCM from being > marginalized is to > develop and popularize it. > The success of preserving this centuries-old > traditional > practice rests not only on its own development, but > also on our > sense of mission. > When knowing the possible loss of TCM is much > more than just a > loss of an alternative medical treatment, but a part > of our > cherished culture, we have every reason to care for > its future. > Whether TCM will be listed or not, we are > duty-bound to pass on > this sometimes mysterious yet magic part of culture > to following > generations. > (Source: China Daily) > > > > > > > > ===== http://www.geocities.com/mojavecowboy/gzclinic.htm TCM Acupuncture, Herbs, M.A., M.J.,M.L.I.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 wrote: > I agree. We should try to broaden the term TCM into integrative > medicine that embraces the best from TCM, WM, Ayurveda, chiro, > homeopathy, etc. > Or even within the confines of TCM itself. That there are separate modalities of practice is acceptible. But on basis of that to define some aspect is TCM and some not, leads to petty territorialism. A tender ' back shu' for an acupuncturist is a 'trigger point' to a massage therapist, and a 'stagnated qi location' to a Shiatsu professional. In spite of that all of this lies under the umbrella of TCM. Dr. Holmes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 I think the writer is too modest, at times almost bordering on being apologetic. Growing up in a culture where TCM is the predominate medicine, many people are going to be acutely aware of its limitations. Just like many Westerners are acutely aware of of the limitations of Western allopathic medicine. Something else that the writer may not be fully aware of is that often in China, a TCM background affects how Western allopathic medicine is used. Many Chinese healers are applying TCM concepts to allopathic medicine and using it within that framework. As a result, allopathic medicine often is used more effectively and more safely within that framework than when used the way it is used in the West. The same thing happens when Western allopathic MDs and DOs learn TCM. Because of the TCM concepts, they start to use allopathic medicine more effectively and more safely than before. TCM works better for some things, allopathic medicine works better for others, and sometimes the combination of the two is greater than the sum of the parts and works better than either alone. For Western MDs and DOs, one of the more common examples of when both frequently are needed is the treatment of hypothyroidism. When a person has low thyroid function, thyroid hormone - either synthetic or natural - is supplied in pills to the patient. Over the decades since this treatment was first developed in the West, doctors and patients have become increasingly aware that there frequently are limitations. Even though the blood levels of thyroid hormones rise to normal levels, the person still has many of the symptoms of hypothyroidism. The symptoms do lessen somewhat, but they are not entirely resolved and are still a problem. What frequently is happening in these cases is that in addition to being hypothyroid, the person also is Kidney Yang Deficient. It's only when herbs to supplement Yang and herbs to warm the Interior are administered that the symptoms entirely go away. BTW, the opposite occasionally happens with people who are Kidney Yang Deficient. The herbs by themselves are not enough and even though the person's thyroid function is in the normal range (usually in the low normal range), it takes a very low dose of thyroid replacement hormone to resolve the Kidney Yang Deficiency. BTW, hypothyroidism is relatively rare in China. Cases of hyperthyroidism are far more common than cases of hypothyroidism. One step that is helpful to understanding TCM is to look at how diagnoses are made within this healing system. TCM notes not only the " diseases " (which sometimes, but not always are what are called symptoms in the West) but also at the underlying pattern(s) of imbalance. It's sometimes helpful for Western healers to think of TCM patterns of imbalance as snapshots of TCM physiology. Imagine for a moment that Western DOs and MDs are required not only to list the disease or medical condition but also the physiology for each patient. Actually, the best MDs and DOs do this mentally though they may not always write it in the record. In TCM it's a requirement that both the disease(s) and the underlying physiology always be listed. This listing of both the disease(s) and the underlying imbalance(s) has a number of advantages. For one thing, it helps the healer to get straight in his or her mind the difference between symptoms and causes. Or, as they are called in TCM, Branches/ Tips and Roots. (Common English words which have special meaning in TCM are capitalized.) First, it helps the healer get straight what is a manifestation and what is a cause. There are rules for what to treat first. Often, taking care of the Root will take care of the symptoms automatically though in some cases attention needs to be paid to both Root(s) and symptoms. In a few cases, one treats the symptoms before treating the Root. Second, specific conditions can have different Roots. For example, what are called breathing problems in TCM and frequently is diagnosed as asthma in the West can have one or more of several different Roots. The correct treatment will vary according to what the Root(s) is (are). What helps one person with breathing problems may do nothing for a second and may even make a third sicker because the Roots are different in each of the 3 cases. A reminder that what TCM healers analyze and treat are TCM imbalances. Even when a client has a Western diagnosis, proper TCM procedure is to ask the person what does this mean in terms of symptoms. (Not textbook symptoms, but what the individual is experiencing.) It can't be stressed enough that the same disease/ condition can have different Roots - just like different diseases/ conditions can have the same Root. In the first case, treatments would be different because the Roots are different. In the second case, even though the diseases/ conditions are different, the treatment would be the same because the Root is the same. When Western DOs and MDs see differences between individuals with say stomach ulcers, what they frequently are seeing is the differences between underlying Roots. For example, one ulcer patient may present with marked complaints of fatigue as well as soft stools and in some cases breathing problems. From a TCM standpoint, what the healer may be seeing is a case of a weak Spleen and Qi Deficiency. Another person with a stomach ulcer may not have problems with fatigue or breathing but may stay hungry a lot. The pain from the ulcer may be less when the person eats and worse when the person doesn't eat. What the healer may be seeing is a case of Stomach Fire. In some cases, Western DOs and MDs may misinterpret what they are seeing because certain symptoms are not recognized in allopathic medicine. For example, people with breathing problems frequently are given computerized breathing tests. One of the things this measures is the actual air flow. However, because Western medicine does not yet recognize some of the things that TCM recognizes, the results of this computerized test may be misinterpreted in some cases. Certain test patterns may be misinterpreted as the breathing problems being due to psychological causes. In reality, the person may suffer from a specialized case of Kidney Yang Deficiency called " Kidneys Refusing to Receive Qi " . If the person also is complaining of being cold a lot, having trouble warming up, producing large amounts of clear urine, not feeling thirsty and preferring hot liquids (like soup) when one does drink, decreased libido, and needing to sleep a lot, the healer in all probability is looking at a person with Kidney Yang Deficiency. If inhalation is more difficult than exhalation, if breathing problems are worse when the person lies down than when sitting upright, and if breathing problems tend to be worse at night and in cooler weather than during the day and in warmer weather, this may be Kidneys Refusing to Receive Qi. Furthmore, if the breathing problems ease slightly when one presses the two bilateral acupoints located in the depression located under the collar bones where the bones curve up slightly and then curve down to meet the breast bone, this is a further indication that the person may have Kidneys Refusing to Receive Qi. (Actually, this is not the best point for helping to correct the problem, but it's a lot easier to explain its location to readers without a background in anatomy than to explain the location of the other points without a picture.) There are a lot of things which Western allopathic medicine could gain from TCM. The writer makes some very valid observations. TCM does have an amazing record when it comes to treating many chronic conditions which allopathic medicine often has less than satisfactory results in treating. The writer also talks about the economics of TCM in China. These remarks apply not only to China but to other countries as well, including the US and the countries of Western Europe. With very few exceptions, TCM herbs are a lot cheaper than drugs. Ditto for the cost of needles. And, when the TCM rules are followed, TCM treatment almost always is far, far safer than prescription drugs and surgery. But there is a third reason for learning and using TCM. TCM treatment frequently works better than drugs or surgery (though it does tend to work slower than these two forms of treatment). Part of the reason why TCM frequently works better than prescription drugs and surgery is that TCM recognizes when very diverse symptoms have a common Root. Let's look a little closer at a case of Kidneys Refusing to Receive Qi. If the test for hypothyroidism is negative, most Western doctors will either assume the person has psychological problems or just ignore the symptoms. If there is incontinence in addition to the person producing large amounts of clear urine, the doctor may prescribe one of the drugs for treating incontinence and/or suggest special exercises to strengthen this area of the body. After ruling out the few things recognized in Western medicine as causing excessive sleepiness, the doctor might refer the person to a psychiatrist or for testing in a sleep clinic. If the patient is a male, he probably will get a prescription for Viagra. The symptom usually either will be ignored in a female or she will be refered to a psychiatrist. Most doctors will ignore the symptom of not feeling thirsty. A few will caution the patient about the dangers of dehydration with the advice to force oneself to drink. The breathing problems rightly will be treated the most seriously. An inhaler will be prescribed and possibly some pills. These drugs may or may not work. In the cases where there is a factor of allergies, the patient often will be refered to an allergy specialist. There are some other problems which a person with Kidney Yang Deficiency may be manifesting. For example, high blood pressure. (Not all cases of high blood pressure have a Root of K Yang Deficiency, but some do.) There may be " constipation " (more aptly called " colonic inertia " ) characterized not by hard, dry stools but soft stools are even mushing bowel movements. Since psyllium doesn't work for " constipation " due to K Yang Deficiency and may even worsen, the problem, the doctor may prescribe or the patient may turn to OTC laxatives. We've touched on some of the more common manifestations of Kidney Yang Deficiency, and we're up to several prescription drugs which may or may not work. Some of the newer drugs may be very expensive. They all have potential side effects, some very serious. We've touched on why TCM almost always is cheaper than drugs and why it's almost always safer, but why is it frequently more effective than drugs? Because it identivies and treats Roots, not just symptoms. Because it recognizes when seemingly diverse symptoms are coming from the same Root. Compare the cost and potential side effects of several drugs for different symptoms to a few herbs that clear up (or at least improve) several seemingly diverse symptoms at the same time. In the case of Kidney Yang Deficiency, the two main classes of herbs which will be used are Yang Tonic herbs and Herbs That Warm the Interior. BTW, this ability of the correct herb(s) to clear up or at least improve several seemingly unrelated symptoms is a big part of why TCM is still mistrusted in the West. The research model in the West is one drug per symptom. This also is the way most doctors were taught to regard " effective " and " validated by science " treatments. This is changing in the West, but there is still a lot of prejudice. It's primarily changing because of the desire of the drug companies to sell more of their products for more things. TCM also pays far more attention to contraindications, cautions, and potential side effects than allopathic medicine does. This is another plus for safety. In addition to herbs and needles being a lot cheaper than prescription drugs and surgery, there is another reason why TCM is cheaper than allopathic medicine. Take a look at all the various tests as well as all the potential referals in the hypothetical example of Kidney Yang Deficiency. All those tests and possible referals add up to a lot of money. A lot of these tests and referals could be avoided if the healer recognized when seemingly diverse and unrelated symptoms are coming from the same Root. There are times when individuals will need allopathic medicine in addition to or even in place of TCM and other alternative medicines. Another factor to keep in mind when considering TCM in China is that a lot of TCM treatments are a part of following a good diet. The Chinese consider food the first line of defense in health. What is meant by a " balanced diet " in TCM is different from the Western model. One very important point to keep in mind about healing is that when only symptoms are treated and Roots are ignored, even in cases where the symptoms clear up, they frequently will return far worse than before because the underlying imbalance has gotten worse because it is ignored. Also, even when a particular symptom is being blocked by treatment, other manifestations of the imbalance are still present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Why not look for unifying principles and recognise them in differing modalities. Also when we recognise difference we are invited to look closer. Is there really some notion of best? How would one measure this, that is against what criteria is best? If one can't define best that is agreeable how is one to integrate and embrace? Best wishes, Dr. Holem Keikobad [dkaikobad] Wednesday, 26 January 2005 2:21 AM Chinese Medicine Re: What's Your Opinions about this? wrote: > I agree. We should try to broaden the term TCM into integrative > medicine that embraces the best from TCM, WM, Ayurveda, chiro, > homeopathy, etc. > Or even within the confines of TCM itself. That there are separate modalities of practice is acceptible. But on basis of that to define some aspect is TCM and some not, leads to petty territorialism. A tender ' back shu' for an acupuncturist is a 'trigger point' to a massage therapist, and a 'stagnated qi location' to a Shiatsu professional. In spite of that all of this lies under the umbrella of TCM. Dr. Holmes http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2005 Report Share Posted January 25, 2005 Sounds like a shotgun approach. looks good up close, but long range useless. Taken individuality one methodology can not be covered in two lifetimes. In at least my life it is difficult to serve two masters. However, if one is really good at their swiss army knife, more power to them. An individual may be the best of the Best. But not a methodology. For instance. Western sciences' Emergency Room. Bar none, the best is just short of a miracle. The average pales, while the bottom ... people are terrified to even go there. That's life in a great American (inner) city. Suggesting a health care person become a jack-of-all-trades they'll become a king of done... If the concern is to broaden one's perspective to have an understanding of what others can do, then I'm for it. Ed Kasper LAc. Licensed Acupuncturist & Herbalist. Santa Cruz, CA. Re: What's Your Opinions about this? Hi Holmes, & All, Dr. Holmes Keikobad wrote: > Here is the deadly knell, the toll of which will regulate traditional > healing for decades to come: TCM is as vast, as profound, as the > narrowest mind which controls its destiny. I agree. We should try to broaden the term TCM into integrative medicine that embraces the best from TCM, WM, Ayurveda, chiro, homeopathy, etc. Prolonged stasis in anything is usually a sign of decay / death - except in hibernation or the wiles of a crocodile ... Best regards, Email: < Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2005 Report Share Posted January 26, 2005 Hello,All! The Chinese Government's decision to apply for " world intangible heritage " status for Traditional (TCM) is certainly NOT heartening news to its practitioners, and is NOT a move expected to give a huge boost to the protection and promotion of TCM. Is it trying to toll the bells for the looming future of TCM? China, the source of TCM, is not very promising in keeping the development of TCM on the right track. As a TCM learner here, I think TCM is now in a dilemma: At home, on the land which produced so many experienced and outstanding TCM practitioners, the influential ones are not spending time and fund encouraging the right trend. Abroad, on the land which is producing so many new great specialists who care and practice TCM, their modalities are susceptible to be debated by native TCM doctors. I have an American friend who often strongly argues with me about TCM. The basic conflict lies in that he believes human body is a machine and that everyone is the same and should be treated in the same way. I am the opposite. That¡¯s not bad news. Several of my Chinese friends who are majored in TCM finally come to the conclusion that TCM is not scientific after years of learning. However, the point is, although people like you and me who are really in it can appreciate it and try our best to use and study it, it is not a logical response to react what the outsiders are saying and doing just by ignoring them because they don¡¯t know it, I think intellectual people are definitely capable of understanding what we believe. How can we find a way to make them understand it correctly and can do something really good, useful, unlike this applying for protection thing? " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " But the reality is, they are doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2005 Report Share Posted January 26, 2005 leeapple301 [leeapple301] Thursday, 27 January 2005 2:25 AM Chinese Medicine Re: What's Your Opinions about this? > .... . How can we find a way to make them understand it correctly and can do something really good, useful, unlike this applying for protection thing? " Man who says it can't be done, should not interrupt man doing it " > But the reality is, they are doing it. So you what everyone to believe what you think is correct? How is this different to others wanting you to believe they are correct? Best wishes, http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2005 Report Share Posted January 27, 2005 Leeapple: " How can we find a way to make them understand it correctly and can do something really good, useful, unlike this applying for protection thing? " The problem is that Western philosophy, science and so medicine have not come to terms with Qi. Einstein rejected the notion 100 years ago, so western science follows suit. Western minds cannot accept TCM because TCM rests on the concept of Qi. Western minds do not accept that Qi exists. To make them understand, the philosophy and science of the 21st century must come to terms with the concept of Qi, or prana, or aether, whichever way one chooses to label this concept. Some in physics are coming round to accepting the notion of Qi. The more reductionist western science becomes, as in physics, eventually there comes a turnaround to a more holistic viewpoint. Physicists are coming to understand the Tao of physics. Once the paradigm shifts, say in the next decade or so, " they " will come to realize that Qi exists, and that TCM isn't some form of magic. Ultimately, they will come to understand that TCM is based on a science that is entirely more scientific than present western science. If western science were truly scientific, then efforts would be made to come to grips with the concept of Qi, instead of steadfast denial. China is just biding its time. In a few years, China will be the world power, and TCM will find great acceptance in the world. Best, Jack --- leeapple301 <leeapple301 wrote: > > > Hello,All! > The Chinese Government's decision to apply for > " world intangible > heritage " status for Traditional > (TCM) is certainly > NOT heartening news to its practitioners, and is NOT > a move expected > to give a huge boost to the protection and promotion > of TCM. Is it > trying to toll the bells for the looming future of > TCM? > China, the source of TCM, is not very promising > in keeping the > development of TCM on the right track. As a TCM > learner here, I > think TCM is now in a dilemma: At home, on the land > which produced > so many experienced and outstanding TCM > practitioners, the > influential ones are not spending time and fund > encouraging the > right trend. Abroad, on the land which is producing > so many new > great specialists who care and practice TCM, their > modalities are > susceptible to be debated by native TCM doctors. > I have an American friend who often strongly > argues with me > about TCM. The basic conflict lies in that he > believes human body is > a machine and that everyone is the same and should > be treated in the > same way. I am the opposite. That¡¯s not bad news. > Several of my > Chinese friends who are majored in TCM finally come > to the > conclusion that TCM is not scientific after years of > learning. > However, the point is, although people like you > and me who are > really in it can appreciate it and try our best to > use and study it, > it is not a logical response to react what the > outsiders are saying > and doing just by ignoring them because they don¡¯t > know it, I think > intellectual people are definitely capable of > understanding what we > believe. How can we find a way to make them > understand it correctly > and can do something really good, useful, unlike > this applying for > protection thing? > " Man who says it can't be done, should not > interrupt man doing it " > But the reality is, they are doing it. > > > > > > > > > > ===== http://www.geocities.com/mojavecowboy/gzclinic.htm TCM Acupuncture, Herbs, M.A., M.J.,M.L.I.S. Mail - You care about security. So do we. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2005 Report Share Posted January 27, 2005 To Sharon and Jack: Thanks for your reply. Maybe I didn¡¯t myself clear enough. It Is crazy to try to make others all believe what I believe. We should try to make more people understand it correctly so that they could make informed decisions. I am more concerned about how (the specific way)to interprete the theory. Clinical effectiveness is a strong argument but not the patent of TCM. Few researches are conducted directly comparing two medicines. As I have posted, it is not a bad thing to argue with those who disagree. But, the decision to apply for ¡°heritage¡± protection could not be made without the approval of China's State Administration of Traditional (SATCM).They are the people I am concerned mainly. What I experience here makes me worry more about those who are trusted in this field yet don¡¯t really understand it. They are also greatly affected by the western way of thinking because educational system of China is based on western system. To make them get back on the right back is much harder than the ordinary because they know pretty much about Western Medicine as well as TCM. When one people wanders between two opposite systems, the result could often be turning out something that belongs to none. That's why you can a lot of TCM papers in the journals are not real TCM. Human body is such a complex system that in some sense we might not be able to get the whole picture. Anyway, TCM gives us a holistic picture which can show the right direction. West medicine starts from the corner and analyzes the spots here and there. Its picture is disconnected but detailed. We could not say it is unscientific, or less scientific than TCM. They are both, yet TCM is advanced in the notions, western medicine is superior in gripping the advanced techniques. Yes, hopefully, in the decade to come, they would come to understand TCM. But things would just happen by itself. Chronomedicine starts late in this century and they are still trying to find which parts of the body is the master ¡°clock¡± although thousands of years ago TCM had already pointed out the so- called ¡°clock¡± exists in the nature rather in human body since men¡¯s pattern are in accordance with nature¡¯s. If TCM practitioners themselves couldn¡¯t figure out which is the right way to do, things may never happen. The concepts of qi, yinyang and five elements are valid yet could we do something to enrich its meaning on the basis of understanding what is understood by the ancient people? Sorry, guys. I have not found out the answers to my questions. That¡¯s why I come here to listen to you. Best regards! apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2005 Report Share Posted January 27, 2005 Apple, It was not until I studied under the Japanese Meridian teachers that I found styles of acupuncture that are based in the 5 phase, polar pair, 4 channel sets, Chinese clock relationships, extra ordinary vessel relationships, 60 and 10 day open points etc. It was through Dr Manaka that I saw relationships between quantum physics, information and topography theory integrating a western science approach to TEAM (traditional east Asian medicine). ......and yet there are many practitioners doing excellent work using a zang fu pathology TCM approach. So I am not certain there is a way 'to make people understand it correctly, so they can make informed decisions'. I wouldn't even bother with evidence based medicine in any serious way.... well not until western medicine is held by the same yardstick. For my patients, I email them information about their disease and other options (usually naturopathy approaches and or specialist papers on say insulin metabolism, or lupus, vaccinations, etc), in the hope they maybe influenced to do more work and not just accept the opinion of western medicine presented as fact. Other than that, I get better at what I do so my work can speak for itself. I hope I have understood you better, Best wishes, leeapple301 [leeapple301] Thursday, 27 January 2005 6:45 PM Chinese Medicine Re: What's Your Opinions about this? To Sharon and Jack: Thanks for your reply. Maybe I didn¡¯t myself clear enough. It Is crazy to try to make others all believe what I believe. We should try to make more people understand it correctly so that they could make informed decisions. I am more concerned about how (the specific way)to interprete the theory. Clinical effectiveness is a strong argument but not the patent of TCM. Few researches are conducted directly comparing two medicines. As I have posted, it is not a bad thing to argue with those who disagree. But, the decision to apply for ¡°heritage¡± protection could not be made without the approval of China's State Administration of Traditional (SATCM).They are the people I am concerned mainly. What I experience here makes me worry more about those who are trusted in this field yet don¡¯t really understand it. They are also greatly affected by the western way of thinking because educational system of China is based on western system. To make them get back on the right back is much harder than the ordinary because they know pretty much about Western Medicine as well as TCM. When one people wanders between two opposite systems, the result could often be turning out something that belongs to none. That's why you can a lot of TCM papers in the journals are not real TCM. Human body is such a complex system that in some sense we might not be able to get the whole picture. Anyway, TCM gives us a holistic picture which can show the right direction. West medicine starts from the corner and analyzes the spots here and there. Its picture is disconnected but detailed. We could not say it is unscientific, or less scientific than TCM. They are both, yet TCM is advanced in the notions, western medicine is superior in gripping the advanced techniques. Yes, hopefully, in the decade to come, they would come to understand TCM. But things would just happen by itself. Chronomedicine starts late in this century and they are still trying to find which parts of the body is the master ¡°clock¡± although thousands of years ago TCM had already pointed out the so- called ¡°clock¡± exists in the nature rather in human body since men¡¯s pattern are in accordance with nature¡¯s. If TCM practitioners themselves couldn¡¯t figure out which is the right way to do, things may never happen. The concepts of qi, yinyang and five elements are valid yet could we do something to enrich its meaning on the basis of understanding what is understood by the ancient people? Sorry, guys. I have not found out the answers to my questions. That¡¯s why I come here to listen to you. Best regards! apple http://babel.altavista.com/ and adjust accordingly. ---------- -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2005 Report Share Posted January 27, 2005 Dear Apple: I understand your point about China--most Chinese are trying so desperately to be western and know so little about their own culture and traditions. Chronotherapy is quite interesting and I hope to practice this. Perhaps what must emerge is a future medicine based on the ancient ways, but that meets with the parameters of future science. My belief is that the more science " progresses " the more ancient it will become. Good luck on your search, you will one day find the answers. Best, Jack --- leeapple301 <leeapple301 wrote: > > > > To Sharon and Jack: > Thanks for your reply. Maybe I didn¡¯t myself > clear enough. It Is > crazy to try to make others all believe what I > believe. We should > try to make more people understand it correctly so > that they could > make informed decisions. I am more concerned about > how (the specific > way)to interprete the theory. Clinical effectiveness > is a strong > argument but not the patent of TCM. Few researches > are conducted > directly comparing two medicines. > As I have posted, it is not a bad thing to argue > with those who > disagree. But, the decision to apply for > ¡°heritage¡± protection > could not be made without the approval of China's > State > Administration of Traditional > (SATCM).They are the > people I am concerned mainly. What I experience here > makes me worry > more about those who are trusted in this field yet > don¡¯t really > understand it. They are also greatly affected by the > western way of > thinking because educational system of China is > based on western > system. To make them get back on the right back is > much harder than > the ordinary because they know pretty much about > Western Medicine as > well as TCM. When one people wanders between two > opposite systems, > the result could often be turning out something that > belongs to > none. That's why you can a lot of TCM papers in the > journals are not > real TCM. > Human body is such a complex system that in some > sense we might > not be able to get the whole picture. Anyway, TCM > gives us a > holistic picture which can show the right direction. > West medicine > starts from the corner and analyzes the spots here > and there. Its > picture is disconnected but detailed. We could not > say it is > unscientific, or less scientific than TCM. They are > both, yet TCM is > advanced in the notions, western medicine is > superior in gripping > the advanced techniques. Yes, hopefully, in the > decade to come, they > would come to understand TCM. But things would just > happen by > itself. Chronomedicine starts late in this century > and they are > still trying to find which parts of the body is the > master ¡°clock¡± > although thousands of years ago TCM had already > pointed out the so- > called ¡°clock¡± exists in the nature rather in > human body since > men¡¯s pattern are in accordance with nature¡¯s. If > TCM > practitioners themselves couldn¡¯t figure out which > is the right way > to do, things may never happen. The concepts of qi, > yinyang and five > elements are valid yet could we do something to > enrich its meaning > on the basis of understanding what is understood by > the ancient > people? > Sorry, guys. I have not found out the answers to > my questions. > That¡¯s why I come here to listen to you. > Best regards! > > > apple > > > > > > > > > ===== http://www.geocities.com/mojavecowboy/gzclinic.htm TCM Acupuncture, Herbs, M.A., M.J.,M.L.I.S. Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail./mail_250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2005 Report Share Posted January 28, 2005 My thoughts/opinions and some evolving thoughts: 1) First impression/reaction. It's clearly a statement of governmental action and policy. " Protection and promotion " I suspect implies some form of control, perhaps like " intellectual property " (as in copyright issues). It's well known that, aside from being of primary concern to the PRC government as a part of domestic healthcare policy, " TCM " is exported to the rest of the world for the purpose of trade balance (finance) and/or basically political dimensions of foreign policy (esteem and influence). On the other hand, when the article states: " When knowing the possible loss of TCM is much more than just a loss of an alternative medical treatment, but a part of our cherished culture, we have every reason to care for its future…. we are duty-bound to pass on this sometimes mysterious yet magic part of culture to following generations. " it appears perhaps part of an domestic, factional struggle to stem off that nagging theme in the development of TCM that it is eventually to supposed to disappear into some new, integrated world medicine on a scientific basis. So a certain faction here is appealing to UNESCO as a means of leveraging against something deeply engraved in CCP policy? There may be an element of that here, but I suspect it is more likely the intent to promote more control internationally. 2) Perhaps this (the first interpretation above) is colored by my reaction to that earlier posting on the attempt to patent an herbal formula. I read the full text of that application on the internet. I don't see how that could possibly be accepted by international patent law, but the audacity of it, the implications it if were to be accepted, are frightening. 3) But my view of this all, in light of new reading, is that it's all (both issues above) somewhat irrelevant. The readings are in a) in Contemporary China - Plurality and Synthesis, by Volker Scheid (2002), and b) The Transmission of , by Elisabeth Hsu (1999) The material in both books relates to a lot of discussion gone down here, e.g. the literary vs oral paths to knowledge, and the questions around what's CM, CCM, TCM, their history, true nature, etc. Both are " ethnographic " studies. Volker Scheid spends much of his book explaining why this kind of approach can be useful, rather than history (Unschuld), or other more commonly known forms of " construction " (to use one of their terms). In fact, he sets out to create a new, hybrid disciplined approach which violates neither the fundaments of western thought nor Chinese thought -- depicting (graphy) culture (ethnos), and particularly cultural interactions (see below). To oversimplify, the idea is to avoid discourse that tries to manipulate and reduce the subject matter via abstractions, such as " western " or " eastern " , " traditional " or " modern " , " theory " or " practice " , etc. But rather to document and analyze individual case study interactive encounters between the authors and other individuals, in contexts where all those aspects we label with those abstractions do factor in, but only as environmental aspects of a present activity, what's actually going on (i.e. learning/studying and doing various forms of Chinese medicine). Everyone alive now who does this (including all of us), does it with various mixes of the literary, teachings from others, from " east " and " west " , from our own experience, and in contexts in a spectrum from private tutelage through to the institutionally standardized. Regardless of what we may imagine, we are all creatures of the present, in the presence of things past, and motivated towards the future. Zhang Ji, Sun SiMiao, Li ShiZhen, etc. were, when they were active, all there too in the same place/presence. This ethnography thing, judging from Scheid's extensive critical review of it, is being intensively worked out since the 1990's. My sense of it is that it is a response, an expression of the simultaneous globalization of reflective thinking. To get out of the box of the confines of the conditioned backgrounds of either educated westerners or asians (or any other tradition one could name). These ethnic/cultural mindsets are all now colliding head-on. And the ethnographical approach provides a vehicle of dialog based on description and analysis of what actually goes on, and the " agents " involved, including people, ideas, institutions, books - anything that figures in. Note: that's the same term (agent) that Scheid uses for " wu xing " (aka " five elements/phases " ), namely the " five agents " , and which Paul Unschlud has also adopted (e.g. in the SuWen volume). Now I begin to understand. Another point from Scheid. CM/AOM has become internationalized, just as has WM. WM is distinct in the USA, in Germany, in the PRC, etc. CM/AOM has distinct character in the PRC, in Taiwan, in the USA, the UK, etc. also ( " pluralism " and " synthesis " ). What we know as CM doesn't belong to China, anymore than WM/science belongs to the USA. It's not going to die out. Some attempts at definition and/or control will carry on, or not. Even agencies that become no longer " current " , are still there, as the past, which, given our evolving control of information (digital reproduction and archiving, internet, etc.), are going to be always available to the present. Enough for now. But I see in this direction (Scheid, Hsu et al) a way out of a lot of the viewpoint squabbling such as we have on occasion indulged in here in this forum (as a microcosm of the international forum of CM/TCM). It's not easy to grasp, though, as it involves a radical critique of one's own conditioning and attitudes. Probably more later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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