You are accidentally setting up att...

September 8, 2005

In a message dated 9/8/05 3:19:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, frankramirez22 writes:

Regarding her posts I must ask: Do you know about break states?

Language patterns and overall nlp stuff? The reason I ask this is

because Sandy's posts (as well as Docs and others) are usually

written in many levels, and if you dont really know much about nlp

(as was my case a couple of yrs ago) then I can see why you might

take alot of what she says as being rude.

Hi Frank:

Yes, I do know NLP and if you read my post correctly, you will note that I have no issue with Sandy's knowledge, expertise, skill level and in fact I did say that I thought that she was quite brilliant. Lack of NLP knowledge,however, has nothing to do with misinterpretation, when one uses name calling as a means of pointing out another's flawed logic, or lack of clarity, etc. There is no ambiguity when someone is called an "ass" or some other choice word.

I also stated that she, as others, have the right to say what and how they chose to. However, my issue was with the delivery methods to those of us who are not quite up to her level of expertise.

I have read other people's posts stating that they felt insulted and hurt. I was only brought to anger simply because I was not a target of Sandy's delivery methods.

If you know NLP, then surely you must also know that "the meaning of the communication is the response that you get"....Most of the people who appreciate Provocative communication, are also the ones that do not need to learn the skills that Sandy can teach.

I think, that by knowing certain technologies, we forget our humanity in being able to empathize and sympathize with those folks who are yet to learn the necessary skills to be as proficient as Sandy and others on this list. It must be annoying for the "experts" to watch some of us stumble around at a snail's pace, while they are off running at lightning speeds. I also thought it was a shame that someone as smart and knowledgeable as Sandy was, with a potential to help those who could really use her talents, to turn away and never even attempt to understand what she has to say, simply because they felt attacked and were called impolite names. I think before that level of teasing and cajoling and a Provocative Theraeupitc approachcan can be applied, it is imperataive to have established Rapport first. Otherwise, what is elicited instead is anger,and hurt feeling and no learning will take place.

Imagine being a child of parents who teach in this way, by put downs, demeaning language, name calling, ridicule, sarcasm and such? Is that a climate for learning?

I think Sandy's style of communication goes over really well with some people, but for us earth/fire and strong kinesthetic types, it just sounds insulting. Isn't flexibility of the communicator part of an NLP'ers credo, so to speak? Sandy, certainly has the flexibility, as noted in her very helpful post that did not have the usual hard edge to it, I just wish that it were used more often, but that is her prerogative if she choses not to...

It feels weird talking about someone in the third person like this, so I will end here.......and with apologies to Sandy for that.

Paulina

September 8, 2005

In a message dated 9/8/05 9:28:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mysterxe writes:

Take yourself for example...even though you don't like Sandy's delivery method you are still able to look past that and see her message. Is that not a valuable skill to learn? One that you would not have learned had you been coddled and spoon fed?

Mike

Mike:

I can't, and don't disagree with your post for the most part. However, to be honest, the post that did hit home with me, was of a coddling and spoon fed nature, for me. I learn and teach others by straight and to the point methods. I am beginning to realize that it may be a shortcoming of mine to expect others to learn and teach by those same methods. as well.

Since I am a psychotherapist, I must look at my own finger pointing, and see where and how does what I say about Sandy, really applies to me and mirrors my own "stuff." So, even though, her intent was not aimed at teaching me anything, she did anyway, by making me look at myself and the qualities that irritate me about others, probably is something within me that I am not willing or able to look at, yet.

People like Sandy and Doc, (and others, I am sure), seem to have the ability to see beyond the surface of other people's intent. I still, (as I back channeled Doc to say something similar), seem to hold some weird Pollyanna filter that sees people (or at least I chose to unconsciously) as what they represent themselves to be, without questioning or looking beyond the surface.

There was more to learn here, than meets the eye, obviously.

Paulina

September 9, 2005

Pandora51To: Sent: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:02:17 EDTRe: Re: You are accidentally setting up att...

>I also stated that she, as others, have the right to say what and how they chose to. However, my issue was with the delivery >methods to those of us who are not quite up to her level of expertise. >I have read other people's posts stating that they felt insulted and hurt. I was only brought to anger simply because I was not a >target of Sandy's delivery methods. >If you know NLP, then surely you must also know that "the meaning of the communication is the response that you get"....Most of >the people who appreciate Provocative communication, are also the ones that do not need to learn the skills that Sandy can >teach.>I think, that by knowing certain technologies, we forget our humanity in being able to empathize and sympathize with those folks >who are yet to learn the necessary skills to be as proficient as Sandy and others on this list. It must be annoying for the "experts" >to watch some of us stumble around at a snail's pace, while they are off running at lightning speeds. I also thought it was a >shame that someone as smart and knowledgeable as Sandy was, with a potential to help those who could really use her >talents, to turn away and never even attempt to understand what she has to say, simply because they felt attacked and were >called impolite names. I think before that level of teasing and cajoling and a Provocative Theraeupitc approachcan can be >applied, it is imperataive to have established Rapport first. Otherwise, what is elicited instead is anger,and hurt feeling and no >learning will take place.>Imagine being a child of parents who teach in this way, by put downs, demeaning language, name calling, ridicule, sarcasm and >such? Is that a climate for learning?

hi Paulina,

Although I see your point in the above post I have to disagree with you. I think you make an assumption as to Sandy's reason for posting here on this board. You say that her method of communication is not ideal for those who are not at her skill level. Well Sandy's intention may not be to help those that are not ready for the knowledge. It may not be to reach as many people as possible. I don't know Sandy, so I can only guess, but there are a variety of reasons for being on this list...

....she might be posting to increase her own knowledge

....she might be posting for her own personal enjoyment

....she might be posting so that only a certain percentage of people who are willing to work for the knowledge get it (we all know what happens when we help those who aren't ready to help themselves...can you say energy leech?)

....etc,

You also define "humanity" as empathizing and sympathizing with those who do not yet have the skill and helping them as much as possible. Well what about those who have access to those skills but are willfully ignoring them? What about those that are too lazy to do anything to change themselves? Are we responsible to help those people? Your analogy about the child is true but the people on this list are NOT children. They are adults and they have responsibility for their own lives.

What about the people who can't look past the speaker to hear the message? Is it inhumane to ignore those that would bring us down and continue on our own path?

Personally I don't think so. The old saying that "when the student is ready the teacher will come" is still true...except I would say that the teacher is already here (Sandy, Doc, etc)...and when the student is ready he will recognize them for what they truly are.

Take yourself for example...even though you don't like Sandy's delivery method you are still able to look past that and see her message. Is that not a valuable skill to learn? One that you would not have learned had you been coddled and spoon fed?

Mike