The stupid argument continues, and continues and continues

[Guest guest]

>> <psychael wrote:

>

> > Why this works in energy work in my opinion is more or less the

> > same, in that the rituals involved in " energy work " provides the

> > same low level operators that work in hypnosis - i.e. rapport,

> > acquiescence, disassociation, hallucination (especially with

those

> > who see " meridians " ) changing representational systems, and self

> > validation. This allows the same critical factor bypass and for

the

> > leader to imprint his expectation of results onto the subject.

 

> Despite my decision to shut up for a long time the part

 

> > hallucination (especially with those who see " meridians " )

 

> was so provoking I had to jump in.

 

> The existence of the " " " meridians " " " has been proven

>scientifically.

 

Yep.

 

The Chinese PROVED them and verified them and used them successfully

for healing 6,000 years ago.

 

And we have scientifically PROVEN they exist starting with Hiroshi

Motoyama back in the 70's. Much since then.

 

It's just been accepted HERE yet.

 

In fact they will argue it to death and NEVER look at, nor studing

the research.

 

Oh well.

 

> For now just the short conclusion that the lines that have been

made

> viewable correspond very well with the " " " meridians " " " (Abb. 2 is

> stomach meridian, Abb. 3 bladder meridian.) that the chinese have

been

> working with for thousands of years.

>

> And, by the way, it's never about SEEING the meridians.

 

Yep.

 

It's about the use of knowing about them.

 

How they keep one healthy.

 

And there are many different interactions that are necessary to know

before the balances can be achieved. Hypnosis is an integral part of

energy medicine. There are even hypnosis channels of energy.

Channels of connectiveness between people...

 

....channels that can easily be activated for hypnosis, for healing,

for better relationships, better loving...

 

> The question remains if all this is relevant for the discussion.

 

Not yet.

 

Hopefull, the " man " will stop attacking anyone that mentions energy

and look at the evidence. Much of it out there. In fact I proved it

to him personally 6 years ago.

 

But, we do delete, don't we?

 

> Nevertheless I felt urged to mention it since some people here

seem to

> come from a rather arrogant position towards " energy "

and " meridians " .

> I may be wrong again but it seems that you try to explain

everything

> concerning energy with what YOU do, denying that level of your body

> and the fact that your tools MIGHT only be a good way to influence

> that level of your body.

 

Yep.

 

It's called a narrow minded bias.

 

Not worth fighting them over. Which is why I have my own

groups, teaching what I personally have validated and know to be

true.

 

And can be and is taught by me and a few others.

 

Most people have NOT combined what we do here.

 

> > How then are we to differentiate between energy techniques and

the

> > combination of rapport/somnambulism/suggestion? I think we need

> > to settle this once and for all

 

Actually " he " wants us to stop posting about energy, and to only

post about what he is an expert in. And that is fair since this is

his group. I know and believe that " IF " he did study the valid

energy trainers HIS methods of hypnosis, which are EXCELLENT, would

be ABOVE EVERYONE ELSE'S ON THE PLANET.

 

Oh well.

 

> I think that more specified questions would be needed.

>

> -> Can trance be induced by using only " energy methods " ?

 

> I am pretty sure about that.

 

Yes it can.

 

My question is, " why limit yourself? "

 

> But then again it depends on what you talk about.

> For example unzipping the central meridian or what old mesmerists

did

> for hours differs a lot in practicalness today.

> (Although I have no explicit experience with neither of those two.)

 

Depends on the mesmertist.

 

If it was P.P. Quimby, he did miracles.

 

But he couldn't make it work on himself.

 

> -> Does it make sense to induce trance by " energy methods " ?

 

Yes, even Donna Eden, the most widely studied energy expert on the

planet uses what I consider hypnosis when she " sees " , when she works

on others she adopts a specific " loving state " ...

 

....when she accesses information she does a synesthsia between

visual and her feelings and those feeling locations.

 

> Maybe this is one of the real core questions in the discussion.

> I don't know.

> The old way of mesmerizing for example takes too long in our days.

 

Again, depending upon the mesmertist.

 

> > or give up any notion that there is a single answer to why

things work.

 

> That sounds good. Some time ago people had intense fights about

>whether hypnosis is purely physiological (followers of Charcot),

>purely suggestion/mental (school of Nancy) or purely working with

>the fluids/energies of the body (followers of Mesmer).

 

LOL!

 

NOT some time ago. Right NOW!

 

People are still bitching about ericksonia, bandler, Lecron, blab,

blab, blab, not admitting to anyone that other methods of hypnotist

also work well after rapport is achieved.

 

What hypnotists don't seem to understand is that rapport is more

than a language pattern or a belief, or a pacing system.

 

There is an underlaying system of energy called the Radiant Circuits

that also add to the rapport on a much deeper structural level.

 

And this deeper level energy method is easily taught.

 

> Maybe WE can agree that the human body has several layers and that

we

> can work on each of them. The mental level being the " highest " of

the

> three mentioned levels seems like a good idea to work on. And part

of

> your arrogance has its right since you can do what's impossible for

> others (for example physicians only working and repairing on the

> physical level instead of looking at the causes that might be on

> another level).

>

> I think more specification is needed:

>

> -> Is there an energy level of the human body and how can you be

> >sure YOU are right?

 

It's actually pretty damn easy.

 

But, depending upon your own " rules " structure, what makes sense to

anyone will be different.

 

Some need, " how does it work? " and need to see the scientific

findings from Dr. William Tiller, Dr. Elmer Green, Dr. Hiroshi

Motoyama, Dr. Gerber, blab, blab, blab, before they can form an

opinion.

 

Others need testimonials from experts they approve of.

 

Others need to get kicked in the teeth about 50 times before they

admit anyone has a skill they don't have.

 

> If you can't, does your assumption make sense for you?

> (for example in several traditions people have worked with " energy "

> and they have obtained a control over their body that most people

of

> our society don't have. So for them the assumption of working with

> " energy " made sense. If we think we have that kind of control over

our

> body without consciously working with energy - does it make sense

to

> argue " there is no energy body " ? Well, those who do surely have

> reasons for that.)

>

> AND:

> -> Is the method of unzipping the central meridian a workable,

valid

> hypnosis technology on its own or just a mental construct being

> marketed as something else?

>

> I don't know.

 

I do know.

 

And it is scientifically proven.

 

> (Almost seems like a Catch-22 since neither of those can be proven

> objectively, I guess. But that doesn't have to do with the

meridians just being hallucination.

> THEY are real.)

 

And they HAVE BEEN PROVEN THOUSANDS OF TIMES.

 

Just NOT on this list, so in the minds of the " man " those findings

just do not exist, even though they do exist is massive amounts.

 

I loved your post.

 

Sincerely,

 

 

> But since we finally reached the REAL point of the discussion and

not

> all the fuss I've been writing about I'm leaving the discussion

again.

>

> Back to studying and experiencing hypnosis instead of arguing.

>

> Have a great day everyone.

> Michael

>