Guest guest Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 On Jul 6, 2004, at 5:05 PM, Spiritpathpress wrote: > > Scholarship/History-Worsley > > 1. I agree whole heartedly with Z'ev and others that it is ethical to > cite > one's sources when imparting information in the profession. Anyone who > reads my > own work knows that I go to great trouble to do so. I try my best to > maintain a balance between historical scholarship and clinical > observation, always > looking for historical sources that cooberate my own findings. > However, I'm > never afraid to let my personal observations stand on their own merits > and always > try to be clear when I'm doing that. One of the intriguing outcomes of the original discussion for me was reading the opening chapter's of Lonny's book (I had read the later chapters previously. . . sometimes I read books from the end to the beginning!) on possession and aggressive energy, because I trust his ability to explain the concepts of Worsley acupuncture. An interesting 'resonance,' indeed. I also wanted to point out that Lonny gave me his book as a gift, one I truly appreciate from a good friend. We connected at the Pacific Symposium several years ago. Another interesting resonance. . .he has a son named Zev! > For those interested in the historical basis of Worsley's > tradition, I > reccomend Peter Eckman's book, " In the Footsteps of the Yellow > Emperor. " Worsley > was a brilliant clinician who made no pretense to scholarship. His > legacy > includes, most notably, the, " Aggressive Energy " (xieqi) and > Possession > treatments as well as the exit/entry paragdigm. His most significant > contribution, > however, was theoretical. With the advent of the industrial revolution > and > Cartesian thought *human choice* replaced natural selection as the > primairy > evolutionary force. At that moment, the primairy cause of illness in > CM (in the > developed countries) switched from the external syndrome patterns to > the internal > patterns. Once survival needs are met, human beings become victimized, > less by > the weather, and relatively more by their own minds. Worsley > recognized this > fact and his formualtion of a constitutional medicine based on the five > elements that focused on the importance of mind and spirit ranks as > one of the most > important realizations in CM since the Shang Hun Lun. > Worsley's failure to reveal his sources was stingy at best and > meglomaniacal at its worst. This is not unparalleled in Chinese medical history, Lonny. During the Jin-Yuan dynasty era (12-13th century C.E.), Li Dongyuan recognized the internal pathologies caused by emotional and mental constructs, and devised therapeutic strategies accordingly. The Nan Jing also discusses these issues as well. > > > Lonny: I beleive my new " Clinical Practice " book goes as far in > discussing > these very issues as can reasonably be accomplished short of > discovering a > historic text that actually discusses the specific protocols. If > Worsley invented > these protocols than he truly was a genius. I suspect they were all > gleaned > from his many teachers who also didn't know their historical basis and > Eckman > covers this well. Please read for example my discussion of the > husband/wife > imbalance in ND (CH7) and CP and you'll see just how deep the > historical basis for > the treatment is in Chinese thought. Way deeper, in fact, than Worsley > ever > could have had access to in order to consciously devise such a > protocol. > (Interestingly some of the fundamentalists which adhere to him take > this as proof he > was no less than the reincarnation of Huangdi, an assertion I never > heard him > deny!). I think Worsley was an excellent synthesizer of various influences from his teachers and homeopathy, who created a simple system of treatment that was different from what surrounded it in the medical world. . . in some ways like Hahnemann himself. However, unlike Hahnemann, Worsley lacked the medical scholarship to fill in the various lacunae and blanks, which he made up for with personal charisma. > > Lonny: Z'ev and I differ widely on the importance we ascribe to > history. I > notice that our profession tends to have a morbid infatuation with > what dead > Chinese people thought. I have no interest in representing the ancient > Chinese, > the modern Chinese, or JR Worsley. If CM is going to be relevent to > help > humanity face the *unique* challenges it faces today then its going to > have change > from its animistic/Confucian-absolutist roots to accomadate the > discovery of > evolution and its highest implications for consciousness (I refer you > to the > writings of Sri Aurubindo, Andrew Cohen, Ken Wilber, Don Beck, Brian > Swimme). Lonny, this is where we bifurcate, although I am certain without compromising our friendship or mutual respect. I think what is true is always true, and it doesn't matter if the people who shared true teachings are dead or alive. I don't accept everything Ken Wilbur and Andrew Cohen teach, and I think the evolutionary approach to consciousness is only partially true. I don't know if this forum is the place to discuss this, so I hope we can have this discussion over tea sometime soon. > What is true now is always present in the experience of the > awakening > human being whose interested in it. An authentic prespective on the > degree to > which history is relevent is only ever afforded by dropping history in > its > *entirety* and giving all of one's attention to what is true now. On > the other hand > I whole heartedly agree with Z'ev when he says: 'It is important > ........ to > let others know which ideas are our own. If we don't have a clear > source in > the Chinese medical literature, than it is an original idea that > should be open > to scrutiny. And there cannot be access to the Chinese medical > literature > without some training in medical Chinese language.' I don't think these points of view are mutually exclusive. I think one can be and live in the now, but the now includes the past and the future in a dynamic continuum. > I used to think that access to the Chinese language was > imperative to > really grasp the mind that formulated the medicine. However, I have > enough > evidence that even education to the highest level in the language > doesn't insure > that one will not entirely miss the heart and soul of what's possible > with the > medicine. The Ancient texts we revere were written by those who looked > deeply > into their own experience as it emerged in their own time. Scholarship > doesn't > necessarily lead one to this facility and, in fact, is often a defense > to > avoid what is actually true right now. To know what is true it helps > to have > vulnerability, humility, clarity of intention, integrity of action, > and a big > heart. I'd prefer that practitioners truly cultivated these qualities > than to > satisfy the conditioned mind's longing for historical knowledge. The > ego's only > concern is to preserve the past, the authentic self, the very best > part of us, > is only ever leaning into the future and *never* looks back. Again, we are in a realm that may need to be discussed elsewhere. For purposes of this discussion, I respectfully ask that we keep to the matters at hand. By the way, I also feel this way about your otherwise excellent book. I think that the path you follow should be kept distinct from the material in your book, and remain as the inspiration behind what you do. I am deeply into Jewish practice, but I don't espouse Kabbalah when I teach Chinese medicine. I consider spiritual practice to be a very intimate endeavor, not a proselytizing one. > > > > Lon: Worsley's protocols have been practiced by thousands of > practitioners > for 40 years. Leon Hammer communicated to me several times when we > worked > together that the Dragon Protocol is one of the single most profound > he'd ever > witnessed for restoring possession of one's self. This certainly > verifies my own > experience, for what it's worth. I have no doubt that there is much of value in these protocols. I simply would like them explained in such a way that they are not mystified by unclear language. Defining terms, sources and clinical goals will go a long way in resolving these issues. As one practitioner pointed out in this thread, her instructor would not explain what possession was. How is this going to help in the transmission of these teachings? Should we just accept something as the 'truth' without any explanation? > > > Lon: I agree. Anyway, what was, or is, " classical acupuncture " is a > dead > fantasy at best. Given the magnitude of the challenges we face today > as a species > we'd better find *new* solutions fast. What is this morbid fascination > with > history anyway? It truly strikes me as the intellects way of avoiding > what is > true *now*. Worsley had a great insight into CM that was profound in > 1948. > However there are potential stages of development that are available > to us now > that surpass Worsley's now old comprehension. I agree with what you say, and I think some individuals have continued to develop the original Worsley teachings. But be careful. Time is not necessarily linear. It is multi-dimensional, and includes past and future. We shouldn't discard the past, we should move forward with roots, branches, leaves and flowers intact. > The ego, when confronted with humanities necessity of having to > move > beyond the conditioned self to embrace a more holistic/integral core > value system > has the peculiar habit of turning to the past for solutions. Classical > schmassical. In my value system, the ego is not the 'enemy'. It can be a tool for transformation and growth as well. Again, perhaps we should discuss this elsewhere. I'll leave that up to the moderator. Attilio? > > > Lon: I think Jason made some valid points but seems to say here that > something is only valid if it has historical basis. This just isn't > so. Those who are > fundamentalists in Worsley's religion are deeply invested in a > historical > basis for what they do. To the degree that they beleive that their > tradition was > practiced historically they are deluded. Yet there is a beautiful > essence to > this tradition that I've tried to distill and unmask in my two texts. > Though I > can't offer ancient textual examples for some of the protocols, I have > attempted to show that many are based on very profound ancient Chinese > ideas dating to > the Yijing in the case of the husband/wife imbalance, for example. There is a difference in studying the historical basis of a subject and fantasizing one. We have all been victims since the 60's of romanticizing the East as we tried to escape the harsh realities of Vietnam, assassinations, conformity and post-WW II nuclear insanity. Much of what we originally felt about Eastern teachings was colored by that era, and still is. > Most of Chinese medicine is old, very old. Personally, at this > point in > my life, I'm only interested in what's new. Cynicism is poison to the > heart of > the authentic self. And there is no more cynical outlook in this world > than to > say " there is nothing new under the sun. " What is true and authentic > in this > world is always new and always emerging in a totally fresh way, *now*. I think Chinese medicine is new and fresh. I experience that with my family, patients, students, and colleagues each and every day. Thank you, Lon, for a most inspiring discussion. To be continued, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 Chinese Medicine , Spiritpathpress@a... wrote: > (Interestingly some of the fundamentalists which adhere to him take this as proof he > was no less than the reincarnation of Huangdi, an assertion I never heard him > deny!). Since huangdi is pretty much a mythical character I find that funny... He must of had some charisma or egO. -JB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 Chinese Medicine , Spiritpathpress@a... wrote: > > > Lonny: Z'ev and I differ widely on the importance we ascribe to history. I > notice that our profession tends to have a morbid infatuation with what dead > Chinese people thought. I find this very funny for 2 reasons : 1) when i went to lonny's website there are a 3 quotes on the main page, I clicked on the main link... the top of the page starts out saying, " Clearly, for the author of China's oldest herbal text, the Shen Nong Ben Cao... " His quotes are from an ancient text and that is actually all that is on the 1st page -- http://www.spiritpathpress.com/index.html.. He clearly, also, has this infatuation. BTW- this infatuation is one of the main points that differentiates our medicine from western medicine, so I have no problem with it. 2) But, I would personally question any type of CM that does not have some reverence for the past. China has always been built on and studies the past to progress in the future. If one has no clear strong foundation than where is one starting? Typically a doctor would study memorizing texts of there teacher for years, maybe 20-30+ years, or they would study 5 years with one master (memorizing his material), then 5 with another (for many many years) only after having a firm foundation would they branch off and develop there own therapies. There are of course exceptions…Although, I find it a cop-out to say the historical Chinese is useless because we live in a different time. That medicine doesn't work for today… We must look at that *now*. This is IMO, is usually from people that do not have access to the Chinese language or just people with a truly innovative nature. I think there is a wealth of information both modern and pre-modern that explain modern diseases. I don't see Chinese complaining that the medicine doesn't work for modern times. I have no interest in representing the ancient Chinese, > the modern Chinese, or JR Worsley. That is fine… But it seems that `most' worslyites call them selves `classical acupuncturists' and market themselves as having this ancient tradition, the secret knowledge from 2000 years ago… So maybe you don't adhere to this, many do… If CM is going to be relevent to help > humanity face the *unique* challenges it faces today then its going to have change > from its animistic/Confucian-absolutist roots to accomadate the discovery of > evolution and its highest implications for consciousness (I refer you to the > writings of Sri Aurubindo, Andrew Cohen, Ken Wilber, Don Beck, Brian Swimme). Well this is true, I don't think that China would argue with this at all. Any one curious about the integration and development of CM in modern times just look at the 100's of Chinese journals and the research that is going on… > What is true now is always present in the experience of the awakening > human being whose interested in it. An authentic prespective on the degree to > which history is relevent is only ever afforded by dropping history in its > *entirety* and giving all of one's attention to what is true now. On the other hand > I whole heartedly agree with Z'ev when he says: 'It is important ......... to > let others know which ideas are our own. If we don't have a clear source in > the Chinese medical literature, than it is an original idea that should be open > to scrutiny. And there cannot be access to the Chinese medical literature > without some training in medical Chinese language.' This is all we are saying… not that your 5e doesn't work… No one ever said this (I don't think…) > I used to think that access to the Chinese language was imperative to > really grasp the mind that formulated the medicine. Well this is interesting… Without the Chinese language many find that CM is limited and cannot treat the problems of today, especially people trained years ago before many books were translated… But I personally find Chinese language essential to extracting valuable information both old and new. But I agree with Lonny that this doesn't insure you getting the heart of the medicine. I personally think that this is a separate issue. The heart of medicine is different for everyone and usually has to do with self-cultivation. I do not think the overly emphasized emotional-spiritual style of many 5e practitioners is necessarily the heart of CM. This is just one viewpoint and definitely a minority viewpoint in the literature. Medicine is about getting people better, if you want to take it to a spiritual place I think that is great, but that is not common in CM literature both modern and pre-modern. > > > 4. Someone says: > > I have no desire to try something that 1 single person created, > > in the last 50 years or so, and has not clinically researched it. > > There are just too many other therapies that have history or research > > or peer review that I would rather try first, but that is just me. > > Lon: Worsley's protocols have been practiced by thousands of practitioners > for 40 years. Leon Hammer communicated to me several times when we worked > together that the Dragon Protocol is one of the single most profound he'd ever > witnessed for restoring possession of one's self. This certainly verifies my own > experience, for what it's worth. That was me, and I stick by what I said… I will pick something more rooted, but that is just me. > > 6. Jason Sayes: If > > there is no record than I think 100's if not 1000's of people have > > been deceived, and I personally question any therapy that stands on > > such ground. Any further information would be greatly appreciated… > > Lon: I think Jason made some valid points but seems to say here that > something is only valid if it has historical basis. No I am not saying this… I am only saying, say what it is… This just isn't so. Those who are > fundamentalists in Worsley's religion are deeply invested in a historical > basis for what they do. To the degree that they beleive that their tradition was > practiced historically they are deluded. Yet there is a beautiful essence to > this tradition that I've tried to distill and unmask in my two texts. Though I > can't offer ancient textual examples for some of the protocols, I have > attempted to show that many are based on very profound ancient Chinese ideas dating to > the Yijing in the case of the husband/wife imbalance, for example. Could you elaborate on this, I am curious to see the classical examples of such concepts… No really… it is very intriguing to me… Where in the yijing does it mention the husband and wife imbalance. Or what did they call it? > Most of Chinese medicine is old, very old. Personally, at this point in > my life, I'm only interested in what's new. Cynicism is poison to the heart of > the authentic self. And there is no more cynical outlook in this world than to > say " there is nothing new under the sun. " What is true and authentic in this > world is always new and always emerging in a totally fresh way, *now*. Agreed… that is why I respect modern Chinese research it is firmly placed on the back of 2000 years of study, and it is very clear to map the evolution. Even the wenbing developments that occurred a few 100 years ago, which was a major deviation from the past, was FIRMLY rooted on SHL theory. They paid great respect and developed the theory out of what they already understood… IT just makes more sense then try to create something totally new from scratch… > > 7. Someone says: > " so when do you make the determination to do ID/ED vs refer to a shrink... if > ever? " > > Lon: Only a narcissist would spend $150 for a 45 minute hour to talk about > him or herself. I'm with Ken Wilber who termed psychotherapists " the pimps of > ignorance. " He also said " True spirituality is revolutionary. It does not > console the world but tears it to pieces. " Yes I agree, but a) shrinks have helped people, b) more importantly there are many modern body-mind therapists that are extremely qualified to help with such issues. And I am sure Ken Wilber living here in boulder would agree with this. Respectively, - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 Chinese Medicine , " " wrote: > Chinese Medicine , > Spiritpathpress@a... wrote: > > > 7. Someone says: > > " so when do you make the determination to do ID/ED vs refer to a > shrink... if > > ever? " > > > > Lon: Only a narcissist would spend $150 for a 45 minute hour to talk > about > > him or herself. I'm with Ken Wilber who termed psychotherapists " the > pimps of > > ignorance. " He also said " True spirituality is revolutionary. It > does not > > console the world but tears it to pieces. " > > Yes I agree, but a) shrinks have helped people, b) more importantly > there are many modern body-mind therapists that are extremely > qualified to help with such issues. And I am sure Ken Wilber living > here in boulder would agree with this. > for the record, that " someone " was me, and i must say in all candor that i found Lon's response to be strikingly cynical, especially for someone who a few paragraphs previously had admonished the rest of us against cynicism. to each his own opinion, but i wonder why the vitriol, and the rather broad brush. robert hayden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Dear friends, In the fall of 2004 I gave the Keynote address to the British Acupuncture Society in LLondon on CM and the Evolution of Consciousness. Peter Deadman followed up with a letter stating that CM cannot treat the mind or spirit and that we should refrain from saying it can or attempting to do so. Here is my response just published in their fall '05 newsletter. Warm regards, Lonny Jarrett Lonny S Jarrett: The Primacy of Spirit It has been almost a year since I had the privilege of addressing the BAcC in London. I've noted that my lectures have generated a lively discussion. Peter Deadman has questioned Chinese medicine's (CM) ability to effectively treat the spirit, or psychological states, and has warned us that we need to be careful when making the claim that it can. The central issues raised by his letter emphasize the importance of recognizing the natural hierarchical relationships between the body, mind, and spirit, between student and teacher, and between practitioner and patient. Spirit and hierarchy It is not my intention as stated by Mr Deadman to suggest that the practice of CM is necessarily, in and of itself, a path to enlightenment for practitioner or patient. My point is that Chinese medicine, in the context of a spiritual life, offers those of us who understand the primacy of spirit the opportunity to practice and be treated in a way that is consistent with our core value system. I agree with Mr Deadman when he warns us that we must be careful about making claims that CM can treat the mind or spirit. Generally we tend to have a very casual notion of what spirit is or of what constitutes a spiritual life and it is best to be humble. Yet those of us who have recognized the primacy of spirit must account for, and speak responsibly about, the simple fact that CM is indeed a profound science of the physiological impediments to the manifestation of spirit through the human vehicle. The spiritual revelation illuminates the true and right relationship of all things and in it we discover that the body is a vehicle for the evolution of spirit and of consciousness. And in this an obligation is discovered that becomes the foundation of what we might call a spiritual life. Contemplation will reveal that the two questions, 'who am I?' and 'how shall I live?' are the motivating force of the universe itself. Simply put, the highest purpose of medicine is to illuminate the answers to these questions and to remove all obstacles to their realisation. From a spiritual perspective, the only authentic medicine is consciousness awakening to its own self nature. And there is no healing, in the deepest and highest sense, that does not contribute to the journey of the spirit through the flesh and into this world. The focus of my work has been to elucidate our medicine in this regard in a context that is relevant to the time and culture we are living in. Mr Deadman defines the spirit as either 'the psychological make-up' of a person or their 'spiritual state'. I understand a person's 'psychological make-up' to be constituted of the personality as it is enmeshed with thoughts, as interpretations of life experience, and feelings. This illusory finite self is deeply conditioned by inherited and cultural factors and is what I would call ego. From a spiritual perspective it is the antithesis of spirit. The false self doesn't meaningfully change and this is alluded to when Mr Deadman refers to, " the time, sweat and pain required to achieve insight into, and the smallest change in, " it. The ego constitutes the very stagnation that the highest medicine endeavors to eliminate. And, the part of ourselves that wants to take time in the process of healing isn't the part that's interested in recognizing the fundamental truth of who we really are now. From my own experience I know for a fact that 'long-standing psycho-emotional problems' can resolve in one instant. This can happen by grace (a gift conferred from on high) or, more importantly, by a decision made with conviction. When I speak of treating the patient at 'the spirit level' what do I mean? The yin aspect is the deepest part of the best part of ourselves, It is rooted in that unborn ground of being and represents our anchor in that eternal source that lies beyond this world. In CM terms it is ling and represents the mysterious power by which something comes from nothing. The yang aspect is the extension of that unborn potential into the manifest as the creative impulse itself. This authentic self corresponds to the shen. These two spirits are One and represent the deepest and highest line of development along which a human life unfolds. Fulfilment of destiny means becoming One with this absolute axis of positivity in life. And, as the Shen nong ben cao jing so aptly states, " The highest class of medicines govern the nourishment of destiny. " From this perspective the spirit is that best part of ourselves that is untouched by life and doesn't need treatment. It doesn't have a problem, is always positive, never references the past or the self, and is always pushing forward into the next moment. It is the motivating force of evolution itself and CM is replete with words that describe it as elaborated in my texts. The single pointed nature of spirit is perpetual change so that when we identify ourselves as spirit, and act in accordance with spirit, deep and significant change takes no time at all. Hence, the spiritual practice of medicine does not necessarily involve 'healing the spirit' per se, but rather removing all impediments to the spirit's manifestation in our lives as the soul source of healing. It is our conditioning and our delusions that make us crooked and it is the realization of, and striving for, spirit that once again makes us straight (in the sens e of de, zhenqi, and zhengqi for example). The highest purpose of medicine is to help purify the vessel to better reflect spirit and every herb, acupuncture point, and clinical interaction holds the potential to further this goal in the hands of the serious practitioner. Hierarchy: practitioners and patients Many of us know as patients and practitioners that CM can powerfully alter us by bringing consciousness into alignment with spirit. The highest medicine may restore the memory of what has been forgotten by awakening in our experience that best part of ourselves that is never harmed by life. In this, patients may have a higher state experience. It is our responsibility as practitioners to then contextualize our patients' experiences and guide them through the process of making the higher state they experienced in the treatment a new stage of development. Of course the patient's interest, will, and work are critical to the process as suggested by Mr Deadman. However it is our obligation to support the patient's efforts by striving to become living examples of what is possible ourselves. Hence there needs to be a natural hierarchy between patient and practitioner where we as practitioners, through our own tireless efforts, are striving to move ahead and live up to the highest we have seen. It is perfectly reasonable that a practitioner of integral medicine leading a patient toward wholeness should be further along on the journey. And, evolutionarily at this point in history, that degree of 'further along' is quite a leap for many of us! Still, for the sake of our patients it is a leap we must take now. The importance of our own development is alluded to by Mr Deadman when he states that he does " not question the ways that the spirit of a practitioner can affect a patient. " After 20 years of practice why one patient heals and another does not remains a mystery to me. But I am sure that the most significant contributing factors to healing are grace, the patient's genuine interest in change, and the level of development of the practitioner. And I'm sure that the most substantial part of our development as healers does not lie in the realms of our technical or academic knowledge. What does it mean to take full responsibility for our contribution to our patient's healing? How far can we practitioners go in our development as human beings whose lives are given to spirit? We know of no limits. And how profoundly can our alignment with spirit positively contribute to a patient's healing? Again, we know of no limits. And though we are only in our infancy of even understanding these questions it is clear that the upside potential of pursuing them is infinite. It is common now to hear talk of 'holistic' and 'integral' medicine. There are few readers here who would question that CM is an evolved holistic science and yet the deeper implications of this might not be obvious. These terms imply more than just a collection of Eastern and Western modalities that a practitioner picks and chooses from. Simply put, the purpose of holistic and integral medicine is to move the patient toward a state of wholeness and unity. That means that there is only One of us and not two. It means that our divided state has been healed and that all fundamental contradictions have been resolved at the root. The integration of yin and yang back to the one is a foundational principle of Chinese physiology. To say that CM does not address the evolution of consciousness and spirit is to say that it is not holistic and does not constitute an important part of integral medicine. I disagree. Hierarchy: teacher and student Enlightened consciousness has passed down through the ages like a fire from one individual to another. A serious student of any discipline seeks out the best teacher they can find. If one is a student of reality then one seeks out a fully unified teacher, one who has attained liberation and has demonstrated an unshakable conviction in living it. In the presence of such a person we should be brought into an experience of enlightened consciousness fairly quickly. Such an experience lifts the veil off of our own narrow view and opens a window into the infinite to reveal the true and right relationship of all things. In this, the soul (hun and po) is straightened as we experience the living possibility of perfection discovered in the absolute (represented physiologically as the heart/kidney axis). We have made the effort to seek for the teacher and the gift of reality is bestowed by grace. And yes, once we have set our wills with conviction it will take continual work for us to become living examples of that higher reality we have seen. The teacher cannot do it for us, and yet, a living example is proof that what we have seen can be made flesh. We must be no less an example to our patients than to be a human who strives to live up to the highest we have seen. For this is the very foundation of the moral authority to hold one's self out as a healer as opposed to a technician. And it is the foundation of developing our own confidence in the fact that changing doesn't have to take time, only will (zhi) and interest (shen). When Mr Deadman states, " I have never heard of a psychotherapist or spiritual teacher (outside a small number of cult-like gurus) who would maintain that one person can 'treat' or substantially change another's spirit in any way. " he reveals either his lack of experience, misunderstanding, or cynicism regarding the guru-disciple relationship. As previously stated, the issue is not one treating or changing the spirit of another but of awakening and aligning consciousness to the soul and spirit. Mr. Deadman states that spiritual teachers don't claim that they can rectify a person's spirit and then goes on to subtly denigrate those who say they can by calling them 'cult-like gurus'. Let's be clear, a real guru is nothing less than a fully unified human being who awakens unity consciousness in others and guides them to live that realization in the world. There is the North Star as the heart of heaven, the sun, the emperor, the guru, and the human heart. Each are different physical manifestations of the absolute, that center that never moves from truth. My experience is that a sincere relationship with such a fully unified human being does indeed rectify the spirit's journey into this world. Conclusion Evidence based studies have their place in an evolved integral medicine. But the only rational perspective on what questions to ask, on the interpretation of data, or application of outcomes can come from a core value system that recognizes the primacy of spirit. Clearly at this point in history we have ample evidence that scientific achievement divorced from a spiritual core value system leads consistently to less than desirable consequences. And I will be the first to acknowledge that 'spirituality' divorced from rationality results in superstition and is no less dangerous. However, at this late date, the rational perspective reveals that spirit is primary and is the foundation upon which any science that can serve humanity must be built. If our reference point is spirit, we are in the fortunate position of being able to let in the whole clinical picture and embrace all relevant physiological findings in practice. This is because we recognize the natural hierarchical relationships between that which we designate as body, mind, and spirit. A materialistic perspective, however, will never be able to embrace the foundational role of spirit, of consciousness, in driving the development of the material universe. Therefore, research or a clinical practice oriented to such a perspective will always be based on irrational conclusions and be blind to the highest potential our medicine offers. How something came from nothing remains forever a mystery. How consciousness or the soul evolves through the physical body is also a mystery. And, how putting needles in a human being can empower the evolution of the spirit and consciousness is a mystery as well. Demanding evidence of the spirit and its relevance to medicine is a denial of who and what we already are. The body/mind duality is alive and well and I'm no more inclined to wait for it to be resolved before acting or speaking about the spiritual practice of medicine then I am to study global warming for the next 100 years before advocating for a sane environmental policy here and now. After all, how much time do we think we really have? It's imperative that those who recognize the primacy of spirit stand up for the emergence of a licensing structure in the UK that recognizes CM, first and foremost, as a science of spirit. That means honouring diversity and putting in the effort to understand what integral medicine means and what its deepest and highest implications are. A structure is needed that allows the non-TCM traditions to fully flower on their own terms without infringement from those who seek to materialize and scientize (sanitize) the medicine. It is not a question of whether or not the practice of CM can alter a human being's relationship to, and experience of, spirit. It is only a question of whether we as practitioners have the integrity of interest in such matters to pursue them seriously in our own lives. As patients we do not doubt the degree to which our souls have been touched by our medicine. And as practitioners we do not deny the degree to which our own patients' souls have been touched by the medicine through our hands. That is why we echo the Lingshu in saying that CM, above and beyond all else, is rooted in spirit. Lonny S Jarrett is author of both Nourishing Destiny and, The Clinical Practice of . His UK teaching schedule can be found online at spiritpathpress.com He may be reached at acutkd Definition of terms Body: The physical vehicle through which the spirit and consciousness evolve. Mind: An emergent facility of the nervous system that allows us to orient in time and in space. In general, the mind is so conditioned by thought and feeling that our interpretations of, and reactions to, life become mechanical and devoid of humanity. Meditation reveals that who we are in our deepest and highest selves is always prior to thought, feeling, and the mind. Spirit: The absolute and impersonal axis of human development having a yin aspect corresponding to ling, and a yang aspect corresponding to shen. Physiologically we recognize this as the heart/kidney axis. In the highest sense it may be considered to be synonymous with consciousness. Soul: The personal soul constituted of the hun and po. The development of the soul must follow the spirit. For the most part, the materialistic perspective of post-modern consciousness is dead to the soul. Consciousness: In the highest sense synonymous with spirit. That which initiated, sustains, and drives the development of the material universe. That which is looking through the vehicle. Often, consciousness is so enmeshed with the mind that the only experience of self is through thought and feeling. Self-reflective consciousness offers humans the ability to experience consciousness on its own terms independent of the mind (time and space), thoughts and feelings. Perceiving consciousness in this way is the very perspective of the spiritual experience itself. Ling: Potential; the mysterious ability of nothing to manifest something. The yin aspect of spirit. Shen: Consciousness; interest. The yang aspect of spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 I agree 100% with your definition of what medicine's role is in spiritual development. I think the 'spiritual aspect' of Chinese medicine is, as you say, to purify the physical vessel to reflect the spirit. This doesn't mean, however, that Peter's point of view is wrong. Chinese medicine embraces different points of view, and many Chinese medical texts do identify spirit as the accumulation of qi in the heart produced from jing/essence and grain qi. However, where does this qi come from? This is a point of contention, and both materialists and spiritualists can claim that the Chinese medical tradition supports them. On Sep 23, 2005, at 8:05 AM, Spiritpathpress wrote: > Hence, the spiritual practice of medicine does not > necessarily involve 'healing the spirit' per se, but rather > removing all impediments to > the spirit's manifestation in our lives as the soul source of > healing. It is > our conditioning and our delusions that make us crooked and it is the > realization of, and striving for, spirit that once again makes us > straight (in the sens > e of de, zhenqi, and zhengqi for example). The highest purpose of > medicine is > to help purify the vessel to better reflect spirit and every herb, > acupuncture point, and clinical interaction holds the potential to > further this goal in > the hands of the serious practitioner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 I( am reminded of Mencken's phrase that " If the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails " . It is no more reasonable to suggest that sticking needles in people can treat them at every level of their being than to suggest that reflexology or drugs (medical or recreational) can do so, or that eating brown rice, seaweed (and a dirty hot dog). It has been said that spiritual practice/ enlightenment/ the Buddha's teachings are the highest form of medicine, but this is for the ills of conditioned existence, not to treat/cure diabetes, athlete's foot, enlarged prostate. As B. Dylan said " Tell me where it hurts and I'll tell you who to call " . As for this guru thing, I've had some experience myself and think this is a dangerous route to go down. The kind of thinking Lonny espouses seems mostly to lead to the surrender of good judgement, Jonestown and lots of inappropriate sexual behaviour. As for " From my own experience I know for a fact that 'long-standing psycho-emotional problems' can resolve in one instant " , I'm sceptical. Only time - and maybe a lot of it - will tell if this is so. We're all in love with the idea of transformation -preferably sudden, painless, absolute and delivered by another, whether it's the perfect body, the perfect romance or the answer to life's ills. Personally I don't know anything that delivers this, though I do accept that patient work and cultivation of awareness can lead to moments of grace. But as the zen story says, you have to hit the rock 99 times for it to split open perfectly on the 100th hit. Acupuncture is acupuncture, limited like any other one thing. It seems to me the vacuum that existed when acupuncture came to the West (no Chinese herbs, no tuina, no dietary medicine, no qigong, no health preservation, much ignorance of Chinese philsophy etc.) allowed people to inflate acupuncture to fill that vacuum, embroidering fanciful ( " it pleases my mind and meets my deepest needs, so it must be right " ) theories of the " it's the answer to everything " kind. Peter Deadman --- <zrosenbe wrote: I agree 100% with your definition of what medicine's role is in spiritual development. I think the 'spiritual aspect' of Chinese medicine is, as you say, to purify the physical vessel to reflect the spirit. This doesn't mean, however, that Peter's point of view is wrong. Chinese medicine embraces different points of view, and many Chinese medical texts do identify spirit as the accumulation of qi in the heart produced from jing/essence and grain qi. However, where does this qi come from? This is a point of contention, and both materialists and spiritualists can claim that the Chinese medical tradition supports them. On Sep 23, 2005, at 8:05 AM, Spiritpathpress wrote: > Hence, the spiritual practice of medicine does not > necessarily involve 'healing the spirit' per se, but rather > removing all impediments to > the spirit's manifestation in our lives as the soul source of > healing. It is > our conditioning and our delusions that make us crooked and it is the > realization of, and striving for, spirit that once again makes us > straight (in the sens > e of de, zhenqi, and zhengqi for example). The highest purpose of > medicine is > to help purify the vessel to better reflect spirit and every herb, > acupuncture point, and clinical interaction holds the potential to > further this goal in > the hands of the serious practitioner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Peter, A thoughtful response indeed, and very well written. My main point of affirmation with Lonny is that Chinese medicine can heal the vessel (the body), allowing a person to fulfill whatever path they choose to follow, spiritual or secular. It is not my job, or Chinese medicine's, to tell people how they should handle their spiritual or emotional lives. It is to help them live a healthy life and fulfill their roles in this world. I also have experiences with abusive teachers over the years, such as in macrobiotic circles, and don't generally recommend gurus as a matter of course. But not all gurus are 'bad', just as all politicians are not 'bad' (though it might be hard to find a 'good' one . There is a group(s) here in California that talks a lot about surrendering the ego, and, as you point out, they partake in a lot of dangerous behavior, including sexual stuff. I also recoil from such talk. I think transformation can happen in an instant, but what that means to me is that a person can change their direction, not that their life is completely altered. If a person alters course just a small degree, that is a lot, and will lead in a different direction in the future. For example, if a person decides to stop drinking or taking drugs, there may be relapses, but their new direction has been established. The Talmud teaches that one should make gradual changes, and if one tries to change everything at once, " all is lost " . Everything falls down. I've seen lots of emotional breakdowns by trying to take on too much or change too quickly. On Sep 27, 2005, at 5:19 AM, PETER DEADMAN wrote: > I( am reminded of Mencken's phrase that " If the only > tool you have is a hammer, all your problems look like > nails " . It is no more reasonable to suggest that > sticking needles in people can treat them at every > level of their being than to suggest that reflexology > or drugs (medical or recreational) can do so, or that > eating brown rice, seaweed (and a dirty hot dog). > > It has been said that spiritual practice/ > enlightenment/ the Buddha's teachings are the highest > form of medicine, but this is for the ills of > conditioned existence, not to treat/cure diabetes, > athlete's foot, enlarged prostate. > > As B. Dylan said " Tell me where it hurts and I'll tell > you who to call " . > > As for this guru thing, I've had some experience > myself and think this is a dangerous route to go down. > The kind of thinking Lonny espouses seems mostly to > lead to the surrender of good judgement, Jonestown and > lots of inappropriate sexual behaviour. > > As for " From my own experience I know for a fact that > 'long-standing psycho-emotional problems' can resolve > in one instant " , I'm sceptical. Only time - and maybe > a lot of it - will tell if this is so. > > We're all in love with the idea of transformation > -preferably sudden, painless, absolute and delivered > by another, whether it's the perfect body, the perfect > romance or the answer to life's ills. Personally I > don't know anything that delivers this, though I do > accept that patient work and cultivation of awareness > can lead to moments of grace. But as the zen story > says, you have to hit the rock 99 times for it to > split open perfectly on the 100th hit. > > Acupuncture is acupuncture, limited like any other one > thing. It seems to me the vacuum that existed when > acupuncture came to the West (no Chinese herbs, no > tuina, no dietary medicine, no qigong, no health > preservation, much ignorance of Chinese philsophy > etc.) allowed people to inflate acupuncture to fill > that vacuum, embroidering fanciful ( " it pleases my > mind and meets my deepest needs, so it must be right " ) > theories of the " it's the answer to everything " kind. > > Peter Deadman > > --- <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > I agree 100% with your definition of what medicine's > role is in > spiritual development. I think the 'spiritual aspect' > of Chinese > medicine is, as you say, to purify the physical vessel > to reflect the > spirit. > > This doesn't mean, however, that Peter's point of view > is wrong. > Chinese medicine embraces different points of view, > and many Chinese > medical texts do identify spirit as the accumulation > of qi in the > heart produced from jing/essence and grain qi. > However, where does > this qi come from? This is a point of contention, and > both > materialists and spiritualists can claim that the > Chinese medical > tradition supports them. > > > On Sep 23, 2005, at 8:05 AM, Spiritpathpress > wrote: > > >> Hence, the spiritual practice of medicine does not >> necessarily involve 'healing the spirit' per se, but >> > rather > >> removing all impediments to >> the spirit's manifestation in our lives as the soul >> > source of > >> healing. It is >> our conditioning and our delusions that make us >> > crooked and it is the > >> realization of, and striving for, spirit that once >> > again makes us > >> straight (in the sens >> e of de, zhenqi, and zhengqi for example). The >> > highest purpose of > >> medicine is >> to help purify the vessel to better reflect spirit >> > and every herb, > >> acupuncture point, and clinical interaction holds >> > the potential to > >> further this goal in >> the hands of the serious practitioner. >> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 " I think transformation can happen in an instant, but what that means to me is that a person can change their direction, not that their life is completely altered. " Nicely said Z'ev. In my hypnotherapy work I have witnessed this very thing. It just takes a moment when a shift occurs and the person changes direction (stops smoking for example). That doesn't mean that all the years of smoking that they did is suddenly erased from their body. The same is true for other " spirit " issues such as depression, anxiety etc. Transformational shifts can occur, but they need to be supported for sometimes years after the shift to keep from returning to the old patterns. I like that Talmud quote. It reminds me of something one of my professors once said. There are two ways to make the Grand Canyon. 1st is to have a steady flow of a river for millions of years. The 2nd is to have one huge cataclysmic flood. Likewise, there are two ways to make changes in one's life, the slow and steady redirection of action by means of intention, or to have something quite cataclysmic occur in one's life were one is thrown into chaos (all is lost). Being someone that has experienced both, I much prefer the first option! Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture <http://www.oasisacupuncture.com/> http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Z'ev Rosenberg Tuesday, September 27, 2005 2:38 PM Chinese Medicine Re: From Lonny Jarrett Peter, A thoughtful response indeed, and very well written. My main point of affirmation with Lonny is that Chinese medicine can heal the vessel (the body), allowing a person to fulfill whatever path they choose to follow, spiritual or secular. It is not my job, or Chinese medicine's, to tell people how they should handle their spiritual or emotional lives. It is to help them live a healthy life and fulfill their roles in this world. I also have experiences with abusive teachers over the years, such as in macrobiotic circles, and don't generally recommend gurus as a matter of course. But not all gurus are 'bad', just as all politicians are not 'bad' (though it might be hard to find a 'good' one . There is a group(s) here in California that talks a lot about surrendering the ego, and, as you point out, they partake in a lot of dangerous behavior, including sexual stuff. I also recoil from such talk. I think transformation can happen in an instant, but what that means to me is that a person can change their direction, not that their life is completely altered. If a person alters course just a small degree, that is a lot, and will lead in a different direction in the future. For example, if a person decides to stop drinking or taking drugs, there may be relapses, but their new direction has been established. The Talmud teaches that one should make gradual changes, and if one tries to change everything at once, " all is lost " . Everything falls down. I've seen lots of emotional breakdowns by trying to take on too much or change too quickly. On Sep 27, 2005, at 5:19 AM, PETER DEADMAN wrote: > I( am reminded of Mencken's phrase that " If the only > tool you have is a hammer, all your problems look like > nails " . It is no more reasonable to suggest that > sticking needles in people can treat them at every > level of their being than to suggest that reflexology > or drugs (medical or recreational) can do so, or that > eating brown rice, seaweed (and a dirty hot dog). > > It has been said that spiritual practice/ > enlightenment/ the Buddha's teachings are the highest > form of medicine, but this is for the ills of > conditioned existence, not to treat/cure diabetes, > athlete's foot, enlarged prostate. > > As B. Dylan said " Tell me where it hurts and I'll tell > you who to call " . > > As for this guru thing, I've had some experience > myself and think this is a dangerous route to go down. > The kind of thinking Lonny espouses seems mostly to > lead to the surrender of good judgement, Jonestown and > lots of inappropriate sexual behaviour. > > As for " From my own experience I know for a fact that > 'long-standing psycho-emotional problems' can resolve > in one instant " , I'm sceptical. Only time - and maybe > a lot of it - will tell if this is so. > > We're all in love with the idea of transformation > -preferably sudden, painless, absolute and delivered > by another, whether it's the perfect body, the perfect > romance or the answer to life's ills. Personally I > don't know anything that delivers this, though I do > accept that patient work and cultivation of awareness > can lead to moments of grace. But as the zen story > says, you have to hit the rock 99 times for it to > split open perfectly on the 100th hit. > > Acupuncture is acupuncture, limited like any other one > thing. It seems to me the vacuum that existed when > acupuncture came to the West (no Chinese herbs, no > tuina, no dietary medicine, no qigong, no health > preservation, much ignorance of Chinese philsophy > etc.) allowed people to inflate acupuncture to fill > that vacuum, embroidering fanciful ( " it pleases my > mind and meets my deepest needs, so it must be right " ) > theories of the " it's the answer to everything " kind. > > Peter Deadman > > --- <zrosenbe wrote: > > > > I agree 100% with your definition of what medicine's > role is in > spiritual development. I think the 'spiritual aspect' > of Chinese > medicine is, as you say, to purify the physical vessel > to reflect the > spirit. > > This doesn't mean, however, that Peter's point of view > is wrong. > Chinese medicine embraces different points of view, > and many Chinese > medical texts do identify spirit as the accumulation > of qi in the > heart produced from jing/essence and grain qi. > However, where does > this qi come from? This is a point of contention, and > both > materialists and spiritualists can claim that the > Chinese medical > tradition supports them. > > > On Sep 23, 2005, at 8:05 AM, Spiritpathpress > wrote: > > >> Hence, the spiritual practice of medicine does not >> necessarily involve 'healing the spirit' per se, but >> > rather > >> removing all impediments to >> the spirit's manifestation in our lives as the soul >> > source of > >> healing. It is >> our conditioning and our delusions that make us >> > crooked and it is the > >> realization of, and striving for, spirit that once >> > again makes us > >> straight (in the sens >> e of de, zhenqi, and zhengqi for example). The >> > highest purpose of > >> medicine is >> to help purify the vessel to better reflect spirit >> > and every herb, > >> acupuncture point, and clinical interaction holds >> > the potential to > >> further this goal in >> the hands of the serious practitioner. >> > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Acupuncture is acupuncture, limited like any other one thing. It seems to me the vacuum that existed when acupuncture came to the West (no Chinese herbs, no tuina, no dietary medicine, no qigong, no health preservation, much ignorance of Chinese philsophy etc.) allowed people to inflate acupuncture to fill that vacuum, embroidering fanciful ( " it pleases my mind and meets my deepest needs, so it must be right " ) theories of the " it's the answer to everything " kind. >>>> Peter i think this is quite common even when multiple methods are available. Alternative med (i think more so than standard medicine) is full of exaggerations and faith based statements regardless of common sense and known clinical realities. Two many people integrate their spiritual needs (or what ever need) to their medical practices and this two often either clouds their judgment or as you say " it pleases my ming and meets my needs, so it must be right. " Oakland, CA 94609 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 27, 2005 Report Share Posted September 27, 2005 Well said Peter Will Maclean > I( am reminded of Mencken's phrase that " If the only > tool you have is a hammer, all your problems look like > nails " . It is no more reasonable to suggest that > sticking needles in people can treat them at every > level of their being than to suggest that reflexology > or drugs (medical or recreational) can do so, or that > eating brown rice, seaweed (and a dirty hot dog). > > It has been said that spiritual practice/ > enlightenment/ the Buddha's teachings are the highest > form of medicine, but this is for the ills of > conditioned existence, not to treat/cure diabetes, > athlete's foot, enlarged prostate. > > As B. Dylan said " Tell me where it hurts and I'll tell > you who to call " . > > As for this guru thing, I've had some experience > myself and think this is a dangerous route to go down. > The kind of thinking Lonny espouses seems mostly to > lead to the surrender of good judgement, Jonestown and > lots of inappropriate sexual behaviour. > > As for " From my own experience I know for a fact that > 'long-standing psycho-emotional problems' can resolve > in one instant " , I'm sceptical. Only time - and maybe > a lot of it - will tell if this is so. > > We're all in love with the idea of transformation > -preferably sudden, painless, absolute and delivered > by another, whether it's the perfect body, the perfect > romance or the answer to life's ills. Personally I > don't know anything that delivers this, though I do > accept that patient work and cultivation of awareness > can lead to moments of grace. But as the zen story > says, you have to hit the rock 99 times for it to > split open perfectly on the 100th hit. > > Acupuncture is acupuncture, limited like any other one > thing. It seems to me the vacuum that existed when > acupuncture came to the West (no Chinese herbs, no > tuina, no dietary medicine, no qigong, no health > preservation, much ignorance of Chinese philsophy > etc.) allowed people to inflate acupuncture to fill > that vacuum, embroidering fanciful ( " it pleases my > mind and meets my deepest needs, so it must be right " ) > theories of the " it's the answer to everything " kind. > > Peter Deadman > ------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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