Guest guest Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 Gerard Do not be lead astray because you have heard of only two sequences as to how 'perverse energy' enters the body. It all depends on the exo-pathogen often in conjunction with the condition of anti/pathogenic-qi. A suggestion is that you do not think of it as TWO schools of of thought. It should be more correctly defined as the various ways 'exo-pathogens' enter the body and move. One can show MORE than two ways for exo-pathogens to move into and within the body with sequences of Liu Jing. Furthermore....Liu Jing (six levels) should not be misunderstood as having anything to do specifically with 'perverse energy'. Liu Jing is one of many systems of differentiation or perspectives in viewing or analyzing such as.....: Theory of Eight Principles or 8 Rubrics (Ba Gang) Yin, Yang Interior, Exterior (Biao Li) Cold, Hot (Han Re) Excess, Deficiency (Xu Shi) Differentiation According to Theory of Channels and Collaterals (Jing Luo) 14 Meridians, 8 Extra Meridians, 12 Divergent Meridians, 15 Collaterals, 12 Muscle Meridians, 12 Cutaneous Meridians Differentiation According to The Four Aspects (Wei, Qi, Ying, Xue) Differentiation According to Disease Causes (Bing Yin) Differentiation According to Six Stages (Liu Jing) Differentiation According to The Triple Spaces (SanJiao) Differentiation According to Visceral Systems (Zang Fu) Differentiation According to Types of Qi, Blood, Essence, Fluids and Spirit (Wei, Ying, Xue, Jing, Jin-Ye, Shen) Where are the two schools you have been attending? The bone of contention, in some opinion, is that the teachers do NOT clearly understand themselves and therefore they seemingly disagree with one another while each has only one smaller perspective. It is up to you for yourself to now determine the reality of this picture/event. Richard > Subj: acupuncture 6 levels for perverse energy > 8/5/2003 9:49:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time > <A HREF= " gers522003 " >gers522003</A> > Reply-to: <A HREF= " acupuncture " >acupuncture </A> > <A HREF= " acupuncture " >acupuncture </A> > Sent from the Internet > > Hello, I have been learning acupuncture for several years in 2 > different schools and I am surprised by a recurring difference in > their conception, which in my view is fundamental: > 1/ according to some, the sequence of how the perverse energy enters > the body goes like this: tae yang/shao yang/yangming/tae yin/xue yin/ > shao yin > 2/ according to others, the order is reversed in the last two levels > in yang and in yin and therefore goes like this: tae yang/yang > ming/shao yang/tae yin/shao yin/xue yin. > > I believe this fundamental difference has important implications and > I would welcome your comments to contribute putting an end to this > recurring bone of contention among various schools. > Kind Regards > Gerard > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 Gerard Do not be lead astray because you have heard of only two sequences as to how 'perverse energy' enters the body. It all depends on the exo-pathogen often in conjunction with the condition of anti/pathogenic-qi. A suggestion is that you do not think of it as TWO schools of of thought. It should be more correctly defined as the various ways 'exo-pathogens' enter the body and move. One can show MORE than two ways for exo-pathogens to move into and within the body with sequences of Liu Jing. Furthermore....Liu Jing (six levels) should not be misunderstood as having anything to do specifically with 'perverse energy'. Liu Jing is one of many systems of differentiation or perspectives in viewing or analyzing such as.....: Theory of Eight Principles or 8 Rubrics (Ba Gang) Yin, Yang Interior, Exterior (Biao Li) Cold, Hot (Han Re) Excess, Deficiency (Xu Shi) Differentiation According to Theory of Channels and Collaterals (Jing Luo) 14 Meridians, 8 Extra Meridians, 12 Divergent Meridians, 15 Collaterals, 12 Muscle Meridians, 12 Cutaneous Meridians Differentiation According to The Four Aspects (Wei, Qi, Ying, Xue) Differentiation According to Disease Causes (Bing Yin) Differentiation According to Six Stages (Liu Jing) Differentiation According to The Triple Spaces (SanJiao) Differentiation According to Visceral Systems (Zang Fu) Differentiation According to Types of Qi, Blood, Essence, Fluids and Spirit (Wei, Ying, Xue, Jing, Jin-Ye, Shen) Where are the two schools you have been attending? The bone of contention, in some opinion, is that the teachers do NOT clearly understand themselves and therefore they seemingly disagree with one another while each has only one smaller perspective. It is up to you for yourself to now determine the reality of this picture/event. Richard > Subj: acupuncture 6 levels for perverse energy > 8/5/2003 9:49:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time > <A HREF= " gers522003 " >gers522003</A> > Reply-to: <A HREF= " acupuncture " >acupuncture </A> > <A HREF= " acupuncture " >acupuncture </A> > Sent from the Internet > > Hello, I have been learning acupuncture for several years in 2 > different schools and I am surprised by a recurring difference in > their conception, which in my view is fundamental: > 1/ according to some, the sequence of how the perverse energy enters > the body goes like this: tae yang/shao yang/yangming/tae yin/xue yin/ > shao yin > 2/ according to others, the order is reversed in the last two levels > in yang and in yin and therefore goes like this: tae yang/yang > ming/shao yang/tae yin/shao yin/xue yin. > > I believe this fundamental difference has important implications and > I would welcome your comments to contribute putting an end to this > recurring bone of contention among various schools. > Kind Regards > Gerard > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2003 Report Share Posted August 5, 2003 That is interesting, and I'm not a Shan Han Lun 6 stage scholar, so it would be great to hear their opinions. But evil can linger in some stages and pass right thru others can't it? Also the initial attack when in, doesn't always follow the usual illness progression, which is why different syndrome differentiation schools were adopted. Is that correct? The records of the epidemic history in china, though brutal, have given us help and interesting approaches, such as garlic itself being thought to save many people during an epidemic that was taking 7 out of ten people. I think that record was from @ 5 to 7th century in mid china. Another complication, may be that many people already suffer sub-clinically from a modern shao yang disorder, manifesting as depression, fatigue, and low grade fever, due to liver depression turning to liver qi stagnation, then qi stagnation producing a little (liv)heat, that comes and goes (anger, crying, bouts of poor digestion), and which like any long term illness, will rob the system of its resources. Chai hu, Ren Shen, and Huang Qi might be used, or Chuan Lian Zi to move qi, relieve liv dep, and clear liv heat. Or am I just blowing smoke again? peace,fran gers522003 <gers522003 wrote: Hello, I have been learning acupuncture for several years in 2 different schools and I am surprised by a recurring difference in their conception, which in my view is fundamental: 1/ according to some, the sequence of how the perverse energy enters the body goes like this: tae yang/shao yang/yangming/tae yin/xue yin/ shao yin 2/ according to others, the order is reversed in the last two levels in yang and in yin and therefore goes like this: tae yang/yang ming/shao yang/tae yin/shao yin/xue yin. I believe this fundamental difference has important implications and I would welcome your comments to contribute putting an end to this recurring bone of contention among various schools. Kind Regards Gerard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 Hi, I think Six Stage Shan Han Lun progression is the second: Taiyang/Yangming/Shaoyang/Taiyin/Shaoyin/Jueyin, with some intermediate syndromes, and some add the even more serious progression of extreme cold attacking interior Huan Jue, then Re Jue where cold attacks then turns to heat-yin turn to yang-, blocking interior from exterior. But I'm not a 6 stage scholar, and it would be interesting to hear their comments. In the brutal history of febrile epidemic diseases in China, the various syndrome differentiation schools were formed because sometimes disease would skip levels, or linger in some stage, or the progression just wouldn't follow previous protocol. So 6 stage, 4 Level, Bing Ji and San Jiao schools developed to help solve the problems. In one report of an epidemic in north central China, in about the fifth century, the disease was taking 7 out of ten people. The recorder stated that many were spared who had ingested quantities of garlic. Reading through the long history, many times you see a disease taking 9 out of ten people in an area. So their knowledge and experience isn't an ivory tower type. Maybe the modern clinical picture (some evil qi's stronger, defensive qi weaker?)is changing for us, too. Many people have a pre- existing subclinical chronic ShaoYang syndrome( with liver depression making liver qi stagnation, making heat, that can bother the organs of the lower jiao, or meridians, or rise to bother the ancestral zhong qi, or wei qi). And this manifesting in a combination of depression, fatigue, and low grade fever, with presentations of flare ups of anger sorrow and bouts of indigestion, or slight heart lung complaints. If so, some Chai hu, Haung Qi and Ren Shen may help, or Chuan Lian Zi, to relieve liver depression, move qi, and clear liver heat. And hope of a better tommorrow. peace, fran acupuncture , " gers522003 " <gers522003> wrote: > Hello, I have been learning acupuncture for several years in 2 > different schools and I am surprised by a recurring difference in > their conception, which in my view is fundamental: > 1/ according to some, the sequence of how the perverse energy enters > the body goes like this: tae yang/shao yang/yangming/tae yin/xue yin/ > shao yin > 2/ according to others, the order is reversed in the last two levels > in yang and in yin and therefore goes like this: tae yang/yang > ming/shao yang/tae yin/shao yin/xue yin. > > I believe this fundamental difference has important implications and > I would welcome your comments to contribute putting an end to this > recurring bone of contention among various schools. > Kind Regards > Gerard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2003 Report Share Posted August 6, 2003 > 1/ according to some, the sequence of how the perverse energy enters > the body goes like this: tae yang/shao yang/yangming/tae yin/xue yin/ > shao yin > 2/ according to others, the order is reversed in the last two levels > in yang and in yin and therefore goes like this: tae yang/yang > ming/shao yang/tae yin/shao yin/xue yin. Hi. I'm studying TCM at Middlesex/Beijing Universites. My lecture notes were written by doctors from Beijing. They list the order as follows: Yin: Shaoyin-Posterior Jueyin-Medial Taiyin-Anterior Yang: Taiyang-Posterior Shaoyang-Medial Yangming-Anterior I have no idea what the order given in 2 is. Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Dear Richard, many thanks for your comprehensive answer. The 2 schools I attended are TIAN: lost in the middle of the Spanish country side (but with a very philosofical approach) and the other one is " LING " in Paris. What you say is very true, however when I discussed with the French teacher on the way perverse energy (cold-wind-humid/cold) enters the 6 layers, she was adament that in this perspective the order of penetration of perverse energy is tae+/+ming/shao+/tae-/shao-/jue-, of course admitting that perverse energy can enter which ever layer according to the situation (no orderly sequence needed) and according to the patient. The issue here is that she uses the same order to explain the dynamic relation between organs and between layers. and this is confusing to me. But I guess I will build upon your wise message to not let myself daunted by this... and keep learning because I have so much more to learn. kind regards Gerard acudoc11 wrote: Gerard Do not be lead astray because you have heard of only two sequences as to how 'perverse energy' enters the body. It all depends on the exo-pathogen often in conjunction with the condition of anti/pathogenic-qi. A suggestion is that you do not think of it as TWO schools of of thought. It should be more correctly defined as the various ways 'exo-pathogens' enter the body and move. One can show MORE than two ways for exo-pathogens to move into and within the body with sequences of Liu Jing. Furthermore....Liu Jing (six levels) should not be misunderstood as having anything to do specifically with 'perverse energy'. Liu Jing is one of many systems of differentiation or perspectives in viewing or analyzing such as.....: Theory of Eight Principles or 8 Rubrics (Ba Gang) Yin, Yang Interior, Exterior (Biao Li) Cold, Hot (Han Re) Excess, Deficiency (Xu Shi) Differentiation According to Theory of Channels and Collaterals (Jing Luo) 14 Meridians, 8 Extra Meridians, 12 Divergent Meridians, 15 Collaterals, 12 Muscle Meridians, 12 Cutaneous Meridians Differentiation According to The Four Aspects (Wei, Qi, Ying, Xue) Differentiation According to Disease Causes (Bing Yin) Differentiation According to Six Stages (Liu Jing) Differentiation According to The Triple Spaces (SanJiao) Differentiation According to Visceral Systems (Zang Fu) Differentiation According to Types of Qi, Blood, Essence, Fluids and Spirit (Wei, Ying, Xue, Jing, Jin-Ye, Shen) Where are the two schools you have been attending? The bone of contention, in some opinion, is that the teachers do NOT clearly understand themselves and therefore they seemingly disagree with one another while each has only one smaller perspective. It is up to you for yourself to now determine the reality of this picture/event. Richard > Subj: acupuncture 6 levels for perverse energy > 8/5/2003 9:49:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time > <A HREF= " gers522003 " >gers522003</A> > Reply-to: <A HREF= " acupuncture " >acupuncture </A> > <A HREF= " acupuncture " >acupuncture </A> > Sent from the Internet > > Hello, I have been learning acupuncture for several years in 2 > different schools and I am surprised by a recurring difference in > their conception, which in my view is fundamental: > 1/ according to some, the sequence of how the perverse energy enters > the body goes like this: tae yang/shao yang/yangming/tae yin/xue yin/ > shao yin > 2/ according to others, the order is reversed in the last two levels > in yang and in yin and therefore goes like this: tae yang/yang > ming/shao yang/tae yin/shao yin/xue yin. > > I believe this fundamental difference has important implications and > I would welcome your comments to contribute putting an end to this > recurring bone of contention among various schools. > Kind Regards > Gerard > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2003 Report Share Posted August 7, 2003 Atillio That is yet ANOTHER ordering of channels which has nothing to do with how evil qi enters and moves in the body. It is a TCM anatomical channel location as it locates WHERE the channels exist on the superficial part of the body. Glad you mentioned it so we can bring clarity to the subject.......because it has no other meaning other than adding 'confusion'. Many instructors are NOT clear in their presentation of seemingly identical and yet conflicting information. The answer is that the perspectives are totally different yet they use identical language. Richard > Subj: acupuncture Re: 6 levels for perverse energy > 8/6/2003 5:27:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time > <A HREF= " attiliodalberto " >attiliodalberto</A> > Reply-to: <A HREF= " acupuncture " >acupuncture </A> > <A HREF= " acupuncture " >acupuncture </A> > Sent from the Internet > > > > >1/ according to some, the sequence of how the perverse energy > enters > >the body goes like this: tae yang/shao yang/yangming/tae yin/xue > yin/ > >shao yin > >2/ according to others, the order is reversed in the last two > levels > >in yang and in yin and therefore goes like this: tae yang/yang > >ming/shao yang/tae yin/shao yin/xue yin. > > Hi. I'm studying TCM at Middlesex/Beijing Universites. My lecture > notes were written by doctors from Beijing. They list the order as > follows: > > Yin: > > Shaoyin-Posterior > Jueyin-Medial > Taiyin-Anterior > > Yang: > > Taiyang-Posterior > Shaoyang-Medial > Yangming-Anterior > > I have no idea what the order given in 2 is. > > Attilio > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 Richard: That is yet ANOTHER ordering of channels Yes, you quite right Richard. I read the original message incorrectly. My apologies. Attilio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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