Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Camie, Both of the problem can be helped by Chinese medicine. Depend on recent research in NIH, find that the people with depression may can find part of brain smaller. We have had clinical research for the mantel problems have received great results. Those patients after the treatment stopping the medications and also stop the Chinese medicine too. That mean is Chinese medicine fixed the place of illness. You also can check if you have PH infection or not, that will help you to decided just use acupuncture treatment or/and Chinese herbal medicine. You can E-mail to me if you have more question. Best! Judy In a message dated 10/21/2004 9:35:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dynamite67 writes: Hello, I am a 37 yr old female suffers from depression - actually they are telling me now it is PTDS. I recently had a bad deal with a Nurse Pract. who prescribed me Wellbutrin XL 300 mg and told me to cut them in half (reason: Im not sure- save on insurance possibly?) anyway I was treated this method for over 1.5 yrs and with added stress the med with a protective coating which now was cut in half exposing the meds went directly to work on my stomach entrance and end of esophogus. 5 days in the hosp and extreme gastritis has me going to a gastroenerist but stopping off to see is acupuuncture could help with the #1 gastro probs #2 the extreme depression since being yanked off the wellbutrin cold turkey. Anyone have any advice or suggestions comments for me? please! Thank you, Camie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 I's like tell you Acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine would help you. But nobody knows how long the treatment will last. Because of the condition like how much damage you have in your brain. Insurance never cover mantel problem by acupuncture, even herbal medicine. All the treatment paid by patient. May someday they will cover the treatment. That depend on research process and economical in US. Best! Judy In a message dated 10/21/2004 11:02:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ollyoops2002 writes: Sorry to jump in here BUT can severe anxiety/panic attacks be helped by acupuncture? If so, how many sessions would it take as my insurance will not cover any of the expense of acupuncture? drjudyhou wrote:Camie, Both of the problem can be helped by Chinese medicine. Depend on recent research in NIH, find that the people with depression may can find part of brain smaller. We have had clinical research for the mantel problems have received great results. Those patients after the treatment stopping the medications and also stop the Chinese medicine too. That mean is Chinese medicine fixed the place of illness. You also can check if you have PH infection or not, that will help you to decided just use acupuncture treatment or/and Chinese herbal medicine. You can E-mail to me if you have more question. Best! Judy In a message dated 10/21/2004 9:35:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dynamite67 writes: Hello, I am a 37 yr old female suffers from depression - actually they are telling me now it is PTDS. I recently had a bad deal with a Nurse Pract. who prescribed me Wellbutrin XL 300 mg and told me to cut them in half (reason: Im not sure- save on insurance possibly?) anyway I was treated this method for over 1.5 yrs and with added stress the med with a protective coating which now was cut in half exposing the meds went directly to work on my stomach entrance and end of esophogus. 5 days in the hosp and extreme gastritis has me going to a gastroenerist but stopping off to see is acupuuncture could help with the #1 gastro probs #2 the extreme depression since being yanked off the wellbutrin cold turkey. Anyone have any advice or suggestions comments for me? please! Thank you, Camie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 Sorry to jump in here BUT can severe anxiety/panic attacks be helped by acupuncture? If so, how many sessions would it take as my insurance will not cover any of the expense of acupuncture? drjudyhou wrote:Camie, Both of the problem can be helped by Chinese medicine. Depend on recent research in NIH, find that the people with depression may can find part of brain smaller. We have had clinical research for the mantel problems have received great results. Those patients after the treatment stopping the medications and also stop the Chinese medicine too. That mean is Chinese medicine fixed the place of illness. You also can check if you have PH infection or not, that will help you to decided just use acupuncture treatment or/and Chinese herbal medicine. You can E-mail to me if you have more question. Best! Judy In a message dated 10/21/2004 9:35:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dynamite67 writes: Hello, I am a 37 yr old female suffers from depression - actually they are telling me now it is PTDS. I recently had a bad deal with a Nurse Pract. who prescribed me Wellbutrin XL 300 mg and told me to cut them in half (reason: Im not sure- save on insurance possibly?) anyway I was treated this method for over 1.5 yrs and with added stress the med with a protective coating which now was cut in half exposing the meds went directly to work on my stomach entrance and end of esophogus. 5 days in the hosp and extreme gastritis has me going to a gastroenerist but stopping off to see is acupuuncture could help with the #1 gastro probs #2 the extreme depression since being yanked off the wellbutrin cold turkey. Anyone have any advice or suggestions comments for me? please! Thank you, Camie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2005 Report Share Posted March 20, 2005 Hello Everyone, I'm so new to acupuncture. I started getting acupuncture done last year. I love getting acupuncture done, but I would love it even more if it didn't hurt. I'm going to a person who was very well recommended and everything. I continued with the treatment because it is working for me. I thought that maybe I was just too sensitive. So I ignored the pain. My husband has some problems and I brought him in to the same person and he said that it really hurt. My poor husband has marks all over from the needles. He wants to keep getting the treatment done, but I felt kind of bad when I saw my husband's skin and he has marks all over from the needles. I went online to find out more about the pain and the bleeding and some websites say that it's normal, and others say that acupuncture, if done right, shouldn't hurt AT ALL. I'm trying to figure out if we are just too sensitive, or if the practitioner is just not hitting the right place when inserting the needles. A lot of times I feel like the needle is hitting a nerve. Could you please give me your opinion. Thank you, Mariza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2005 Report Share Posted March 21, 2005 Although there are very sensitive points but in most cases if the poits were located correctly you should not feel great deal of pain. And occassional marks are normal but having marks all over the body is not. --- canyoubenice <canyoubenice wrote: Hello Everyone, I'm so new to acupuncture. I started getting acupuncture done last year. I love getting acupuncture done, but I would love it even more if it didn't hurt. I'm going to a person who was very well recommended and everything. I continued with the treatment because it is working for me. I thought that maybe I was just too sensitive. So I ignored the pain. My husband has some problems and I brought him in to the same person and he said that it really hurt. My poor husband has marks all over from the needles. He wants to keep getting the treatment done, but I felt kind of bad when I saw my husband's skin and he has marks all over from the needles. I went online to find out more about the pain and the bleeding and some websites say that it's normal, and others say that acupuncture, if done right, shouldn't hurt AT ALL. I'm trying to figure out if we are just too sensitive, or if the practitioner is just not hitting the right place when inserting the needles. A lot of times I feel like the needle is hitting a nerve. Could you please give me your opinion. Thank you, Mariza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2005 Report Share Posted March 22, 2005 Hello...I am a Lis. Acupuncturist, practicing now for 3 years. I was trained under a traditional Chinese doctor from China. He believed in strong manipulation of the qi, which at times can cause pain. I myself manipulate the needle once inserted. Generally, the needle insertion should not cause pain, but when twisted can cause feelings of pressure, movement, and at some very sensitive points, a feeling of electricity. I have caught myself being under- sensitive to my patients feelings of pain in the past. During treatment, my mind is focused on giving the most effective treatment for the most effective results. I think communication with your acupuncturist is important and would be appreciated. Sometimes patients hide their discomfort and the acupuncturist thinks all is fine. I do differentiate between " good pain " and " bad pain " with my patients and try to quantify between discomfort and pain. A bad pain is one that comes on startlingly quick with a feeling of electricity (unless the point is specifically electric in sensation) that often travels quickly. You may just be extra sensitive, and if this is the case, you can request smaller gauge needles or even seirin's (Japanese brand of needles). Ask your acupuncturist to try simple insertion and experiment with your results. If the result is the same your treatment is not only effective, but also painless. Good luck! Lori Scott, Tx. L. Ac. --- Park Michael <reservexo wrote: > Although there are very sensitive points but in most > cases if the poits were located correctly you should > not feel great deal of pain. And occassional marks > are normal but having marks all over the body is > not. > --- canyoubenice <canyoubenice wrote: > > > > Hello Everyone, > > I'm so new to acupuncture. I started getting > acupuncture done last > year. > > I love getting acupuncture done, but I would love it > even more if it > didn't hurt. I'm going to a person who was very well > recommended and > everything. I continued with the treatment because > it > is working for > me. I thought that maybe I was just too sensitive. > So > I ignored the > pain. > > My husband has some problems and I brought him in to > the same person > and he said that it really hurt. My poor husband has > marks all over > from the needles. He wants to keep getting the > treatment done, but I > felt kind of bad when I saw my husband's skin and he > has marks all > over from the needles. > > I went online to find out more about the pain and > the > bleeding and > some websites say that it's normal, and others say > that acupuncture, > if done right, shouldn't hurt AT ALL. > > I'm trying to figure out if we are just too > sensitive, > or if the > practitioner is just not hitting the right place > when > inserting the > needles. A lot of times I feel like the needle is > hitting a nerve. > > Could you please give me your opinion. > > Thank you, > Mariza > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2005 Report Share Posted March 23, 2005 Lori, I was trained that no points should cause an electric shock feeling. PC-6 is the most common point where this occurs, but when it does it is not Qi but the needle hitting the medial nerve. This indicates the needle is too deep or placed in the wrong location (the point should be palpated and not just placed blindly at 2 cun proximal to PC-7). When this does occur the needle should be removed immediately or numbness and tingling in the hand that can last for days or even weeks is the result. When I first started my training I was getting a treatment by a senior student and they hit the medial nerve on PC-6 which caused a shooting strong electric shock into my hand. They left the needle in place because they where also taught that it was Qi, but it took weeks for my hand to feel normal again. Later I learned from my instructors, Chinese, Japanese and American that this is not Qi and should be avoided. Could you explain what points in your training are suppose to cause an electric shock feeling as this is contrary to my training and experience? Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. Oasis Acupuncture http://www.oasisacupuncture.com 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte Suite D-35 Scottsdale, AZ 85258 Phone: (480) 991-3650 Fax: (480) 247-4472 Ms Lori Scott [loriandeli] Tuesday, March 22, 2005 8:12 AM acupuncture Re: acupuncture New to acupuncture Hello...I am a Lis. Acupuncturist, practicing now for 3 years. I was trained under a traditional Chinese doctor from China. He believed in strong manipulation of the qi, which at times can cause pain. I myself manipulate the needle once inserted. Generally, the needle insertion should not cause pain, but when twisted can cause feelings of pressure, movement, and at some very sensitive points, a feeling of electricity. I have caught myself being under- sensitive to my patients feelings of pain in the past. During treatment, my mind is focused on giving the most effective treatment for the most effective results. I think communication with your acupuncturist is important and would be appreciated. Sometimes patients hide their discomfort and the acupuncturist thinks all is fine. I do differentiate between " good pain " and " bad pain " with my patients and try to quantify between discomfort and pain. A bad pain is one that comes on startlingly quick with a feeling of electricity (unless the point is specifically electric in sensation) that often travels quickly. You may just be extra sensitive, and if this is the case, you can request smaller gauge needles or even seirin's (Japanese brand of needles). Ask your acupuncturist to try simple insertion and experiment with your results. If the result is the same your treatment is not only effective, but also painless. Good luck! Lori Scott, Tx. L. Ac. --- Park Michael <reservexo wrote: > Although there are very sensitive points but in most > cases if the poits were located correctly you should > not feel great deal of pain. And occassional marks > are normal but having marks all over the body is > not. > --- canyoubenice <canyoubenice wrote: > > > > Hello Everyone, > > I'm so new to acupuncture. I started getting > acupuncture done last > year. > > I love getting acupuncture done, but I would love it > even more if it > didn't hurt. I'm going to a person who was very well > recommended and > everything. I continued with the treatment because > it > is working for > me. I thought that maybe I was just too sensitive. > So > I ignored the > pain. > > My husband has some problems and I brought him in to > the same person > and he said that it really hurt. My poor husband has > marks all over > from the needles. He wants to keep getting the > treatment done, but I > felt kind of bad when I saw my husband's skin and he > has marks all > over from the needles. > > I went online to find out more about the pain and > the > bleeding and > some websites say that it's normal, and others say > that acupuncture, > if done right, shouldn't hurt AT ALL. > > I'm trying to figure out if we are just too > sensitive, > or if the > practitioner is just not hitting the right place > when > inserting the > needles. A lot of times I feel like the needle is > hitting a nerve. > > Could you please give me your opinion. > > Thank you, > Mariza > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2005 Report Share Posted March 23, 2005 Well said. I was just about to respond in a similar fashion, but you saved me the typing. Thanks Kris G. Sandberg, M.S., L.Ac. Matrix Alternative Health Care 1550 Yankee Park Place Centerville, OH 45433 937/432-6330 acupuncture , " Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. " <ckvedeler@a...> wrote: > There are different styles of acupuncture. Typically Chinese TCM > (Traditional ) acupuncture is more aggressive and more > likely to hurt. Sometimes it is appropriate to be more aggressive as > that is what is required to achieve results. For more sensitive people > these treatments can be painful. > > There is also a difference between people and how sensitive they are to > the needles. For some people it is mostly psychological, while for > others their energy is very Yang and so it is right on the surface. > Depending on the training of the practitioner they can change their > style and technique as well as the type of needles used for their more > sensitive patients. I tend to be much less aggressive than many of my > peers because I am so needle sensitive myself. I use only Seirin > Japanese style needles, which are extremely smooth and much less painful > than most other needles. I only use aggressive needling techniques when > I feel that it is absolutely necessary to achieve results. Good > technique can also make aggressive needling much less painful as can > calming the patient down before needling because when we are tense we > are much more likely to experience pain. > > There are different kinds of " pain " with acupuncture treatments like a > dull ache or warm feeling (which is good), but if you feel a sharp > stabbing pain that lasts more than a second or a strong electric shock > feeling, that is caused by the needle hitting a nerve and the needle > should be removed immediately. Some practitioners mistakenly think that > such a sensation is Qi and so they try and get such a sensation. This > is not what acupuncture is about! > > If you were my patient I would want you to bring up your concerns with > me so that I could either explain why I felt the more aggressive > needling was necessary for your particular condition, or I could modify > my needling technique and / or type of needles I would use with you. > > I hope this helps. > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > > canyoubenice [canyoubenice] > Sunday, March 20, 2005 11:39 AM > acupuncture > acupuncture New to acupuncture > > > > Hello Everyone, > > I'm so new to acupuncture. I started getting acupuncture done last > year. > > I love getting acupuncture done, but I would love it even more if it > didn't hurt. I'm going to a person who was very well recommended and > everything. I continued with the treatment because it is working for > me. I thought that maybe I was just too sensitive. So I ignored the > pain. > > My husband has some problems and I brought him in to the same person > and he said that it really hurt. My poor husband has marks all over > from the needles. He wants to keep getting the treatment done, but I > felt kind of bad when I saw my husband's skin and he has marks all > over from the needles. > > I went online to find out more about the pain and the bleeding and > some websites say that it's normal, and others say that acupuncture, > if done right, shouldn't hurt AT ALL. > > I'm trying to figure out if we are just too sensitive, or if the > practitioner is just not hitting the right place when inserting the > needles. A lot of times I feel like the needle is hitting a nerve. > > Could you please give me your opinion. > > Thank you, > Mariza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2005 Report Share Posted March 23, 2005 Again, well said. Lori, I think you were the one I just responded to about the anxiety patients. I like the response about using systems other than straight zang fu TCM which is what I tend to do. I need to utilize the 8 extras more. I have a couple questions for you and the other practitioners here about pain perception. Let me first say that it might be my technique...I was not practicing for a number of months due to moving, etc. I'm wondering if you've noticed that chronic pain pts tend to feel the insertion more often (not every needle, but more than my other pts). My non-pain patients don't usually feel the insertions. I'm trying to figure if it's literally an imbalance of the skin due to the injury or increased mental sensitivity to anything in the affected area. But, even more than understanding...how to prevent it. I am using finer gauge needles (34 or 36 and sometimes seirins), but going thinner can make getting to some of the muscle tissue more difficult. I've also started doing free-hand insertion instead of the guide-tubes, but it wears on my thumb after a while. Anyway...any comments, discussion? I'd love if anyone has points they do first to " de-sensitize. " Or even just technique comments. Kris G. Sandberg, M.S., L.Ac. Matrix Alternative Health Care 1550 Yankee Park Place Centerville, OH 45433 937/432-6330 acupuncture , Ms Lori Scott <loriandeli> wrote: > Hello...I am a Lis. Acupuncturist, practicing now for > 3 years. I was trained under a traditional Chinese > doctor from China. He believed in strong manipulation > of the qi, which at times can cause pain. I myself > manipulate the needle once inserted. Generally, the > needle insertion should not cause pain, but when > twisted can cause feelings of pressure, movement, and > at some very sensitive points, a feeling of > electricity. I have caught myself being under- > sensitive to my patients feelings of pain in the past. > During treatment, my mind is focused on giving the > most effective treatment for the most effective > results. I think communication with your > acupuncturist is important and would be appreciated. > Sometimes patients hide their discomfort and the > acupuncturist thinks all is fine. I do differentiate > between " good pain " and " bad pain " with my patients > and try to quantify between discomfort and pain. A > bad pain is one that comes on startlingly quick with > a feeling of electricity (unless the point is > specifically electric in sensation) that often travels > quickly. You may just be extra sensitive, and if this > is the case, you can request smaller gauge needles or > even seirin's (Japanese brand of needles). Ask your > acupuncturist to try simple insertion and experiment > with your results. If the result is the same your > treatment is not only effective, but also painless. > Good luck! Lori Scott, Tx. L. Ac. > > --- Park Michael <reservexo> wrote: > > Although there are very sensitive points but in most > > cases if the poits were located correctly you should > > not feel great deal of pain. And occassional marks > > are normal but having marks all over the body is > > not. > > --- canyoubenice <canyoubenice> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello Everyone, > > > > I'm so new to acupuncture. I started getting > > acupuncture done last > > year. > > > > I love getting acupuncture done, but I would love it > > even more if it > > didn't hurt. I'm going to a person who was very well > > recommended and > > everything. I continued with the treatment because > > it > > is working for > > me. I thought that maybe I was just too sensitive. > > So > > I ignored the > > pain. > > > > My husband has some problems and I brought him in to > > the same person > > and he said that it really hurt. My poor husband has > > marks all over > > from the needles. He wants to keep getting the > > treatment done, but I > > felt kind of bad when I saw my husband's skin and he > > has marks all > > over from the needles. > > > > I went online to find out more about the pain and > > the > > bleeding and > > some websites say that it's normal, and others say > > that acupuncture, > > if done right, shouldn't hurt AT ALL. > > > > I'm trying to figure out if we are just too > > sensitive, > > or if the > > practitioner is just not hitting the right place > > when > > inserting the > > needles. A lot of times I feel like the needle is > > hitting a nerve. > > > > Could you please give me your opinion. > > > > Thank you, > > Mariza > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2005 Report Share Posted April 13, 2005 Hello Chris, I agree, no points should cause an " electric shock feeling " . I was taught, that any quickly moving or shocking electric pain is inappropriate. Inevitably, I have caused undesirable needling sensations, in which I qualified as " hitting a nerve " . I never seek this reaction and as I grow in my technique, it becomes rare. I do consider LI-4 to have an " electric sensation " that expands outward and circularly from the needle. With appropriate technique, you can have the sensation move (slowly) up the meridian in the case of LI-4 (or St. 36). I also find that LU-7 has somewhat of an electric sensation when the Qi is found. These sensations are controlled and slow. I often find that appropriate technique produces a feeling that is surprising to new patients. I find the word " pain " is commonly used when new patients have a lack of experience in describing the feeling. Pressure, slow traveling, expanding, tightness...these are all descriptions of de qi. Of all the points, I find Liv-3 as being absolutely non-electric with good technique, but oh so easy to hit a nerve - and ouch! I must always concentrate on that one. Thanks for your input, I enjoy reading your responses. Lori Scott, L.Ac. --- " Christopher Vedeler, L.Ac. " <ckvedeler wrote: > Lori, > > I was trained that no points should cause an > electric shock feeling. > PC-6 is the most common point where this occurs, but > when it does it is > not Qi but the needle hitting the medial nerve. > This indicates the > needle is too deep or placed in the wrong location > (the point should be > palpated and not just placed blindly at 2 cun > proximal to PC-7). When > this does occur the needle should be removed > immediately or numbness and > tingling in the hand that can last for days or even > weeks is the result. > When I first started my training I was getting a > treatment by a senior > student and they hit the medial nerve on PC-6 which > caused a shooting > strong electric shock into my hand. They left the > needle in place > because they where also taught that it was Qi, but > it took weeks for my > hand to feel normal again. Later I learned from my > instructors, > Chinese, Japanese and American that this is not Qi > and should be > avoided. > > Could you explain what points in your training are > suppose to cause an > electric shock feeling as this is contrary to my > training and > experience? > > Christopher Vedeler L.Ac., C.Ht. > Oasis Acupuncture > http://www.oasisacupuncture.com > 8233 N. Via Paseo del Norte > Suite D-35 > Scottsdale, AZ 85258 > Phone: (480) 991-3650 > Fax: (480) 247-4472 > > > Ms Lori Scott [loriandeli] > Tuesday, March 22, 2005 8:12 AM > acupuncture > Re: acupuncture New to acupuncture > > > Hello...I am a Lis. Acupuncturist, practicing now > for > 3 years. I was trained under a traditional Chinese > doctor from China. He believed in strong > manipulation > of the qi, which at times can cause pain. I myself > manipulate the needle once inserted. Generally, the > needle insertion should not cause pain, but when > twisted can cause feelings of pressure, movement, > and > at some very sensitive points, a feeling of > electricity. I have caught myself being under- > sensitive to my patients feelings of pain in the > past. > During treatment, my mind is focused on giving the > most effective treatment for the most effective > results. I think communication with your > acupuncturist is important and would be appreciated. > > Sometimes patients hide their discomfort and the > acupuncturist thinks all is fine. I do > differentiate > between " good pain " and " bad pain " with my patients > and try to quantify between discomfort and pain. A > bad pain is one that comes on startlingly quick > with > a feeling of electricity (unless the point is > specifically electric in sensation) that often > travels > quickly. You may just be extra sensitive, and if > this > is the case, you can request smaller gauge needles > or > even seirin's (Japanese brand of needles). Ask your > acupuncturist to try simple insertion and experiment > with your results. If the result is the same your > treatment is not only effective, but also painless. > Good luck! Lori Scott, Tx. L. Ac. > > --- Park Michael <reservexo wrote: > > Although there are very sensitive points but in > most > > cases if the poits were located correctly you > should > > not feel great deal of pain. And occassional > marks > > are normal but having marks all over the body is > > not. > > --- canyoubenice <canyoubenice wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello Everyone, > > > > I'm so new to acupuncture. I started getting > > acupuncture done last > > year. > > > > I love getting acupuncture done, but I would love > it > > even more if it > > didn't hurt. I'm going to a person who was very > well > > recommended and > > everything. I continued with the treatment because > > it > > is working for > > me. I thought that maybe I was just too sensitive. > > So > > I ignored the > > pain. > > > > My husband has some problems and I brought him in > to > > the same person > > and he said that it really hurt. My poor husband > has > > marks all over > > from the needles. He wants to keep getting the > > treatment done, but I > > felt kind of bad when I saw my husband's skin and > he > > has marks all > > over from the needles. > > > > I went online to find out more about the pain and > > the > > bleeding and > > some websites say that it's normal, and others say > > that acupuncture, > > if done right, shouldn't hurt AT ALL. > > > > I'm trying to figure out if we are just too > > sensitive, > > or if the > > practitioner is just not hitting the right place > > when > > inserting the > > needles. A lot of times I feel like the needle is > > hitting a nerve. > > > > Could you please give me your opinion. > > > > Thank you, > > Mariza > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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