Guest guest Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Welcome to the world of healing! (my spell-check, etc are not working so excuse any grammar problems etc.) In answer to your question most acpu. make about 15k- 25k net. There is a small group - less than 20% I believe that make a 6-figure income net. NOT gross. You didn't ask but I hope no one will shoot the massager if I give you food for thought and encouragement. I wish someone would have taken the time to write me this kind of letter many years ago when I started another business in another field. I learned the hard way but the wonderful insights allowed me to gain a very fun, healing and profitable practice. There may be those who disagree but in going to conferences all over the country this is what fellow TCM people tell me they make and I keep record as I teach a financial success course for holistic/Energetic healers as well as others courses. I can not talk to you about that as this is NOT the purpose of this chat room but I know my info to be accurate. Some TCM people tell me they make 40-60k but when we get down to it they really aren't. They make that gross or have low over-head and take home of 50%. Practice structure, overhead, etc all play a part so your question can not be answered. A better question may be " what is the average take home (net) of acupuncturists? And then other questions like do you practice in a private office, in-home, office building or a group practice. What is your total overhead, do you employee anyone, take insurance, etc. Only when I attended a finance class of many fields of business did I personally figure what I truly made. All-in-all one could say the field of acupuncture personal income is $0 to anything. As I have know of top people not working in the field due to other problems yet they may see only 2-4 people per yr. to keep their lic. May do not work at TCM FT only PT and others hold down other jobs. Only some work at this FT. I lecture all over the country and teach to many different types of holistic groups. My figures are based on that and what I have read. My goal in writing you is to inspire you to know you can be a great healer and make great money if you do what you love and love what you do. It is one of the universal principles that I teach when I lecture to any group. By the way your degree level means nothing. People go to healers not those who hold the best degree. Your education has just begun as the patient teaches us the most. You will do great just keep learning (taking worthwhile courses) and place your heart in healing and your mind in business. If you don't have a strong business background get one now and be careful of programs teaching you how to make a 100K or million. Or are just for one specialty. All programs have something of value make sure you go to the right one for you and your level of thinking/education. Ask how much money you will need to have to follow their ideas? How many people in your area are doing the same marketing - maybe you don't want to use over-used ideas. ASK for a list how many past students are making a million or what they suggest you will make if you follow their information and if they can't provide it why not? Is the $$ in gross or net? Its easy to make a 100k gross but only bring home 15-25k. With all the marketing expense of some workshops you have nothing left for you. The program should teach you about how to save what you make. Stay out of debt. How to market to those you know or have as patients etc. If it has you placing ads or spending money - many of these ideas are so over used they don't work or have never worked. Less than 1% get a fair return for acupu. ads in newspapers for instance. Yet one happy patient is worth 5 new patients according to stats. So make happy patients! How? Sorry I teach for part of my living and this is a chat room not a class room and I want to continue doing both in their own venues. Who ever you are I believe in you and you will be a great healer who also will have financial success. Some great reading to get you started is Power vs. Force. You'll understand by the end of the book why. It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with who you are or choose to become. . . .. . And The Richest Man in Babylon a book that if you start following its laws of finance you will make what you should make in income and learn many things about yourself doing it. May you love what you do and have plenty in spirit and wealth, DN And remember it's not about your degree. For now don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 In my limited experience I seen only low paying jobs for acupunctrist with the county Gov't for drug rehab. and they had no forseable opening. You might find a teaching spot at an Acupuncture shool or an intern ship with a successful acupuncturist, both low paying. Most Acupuncturist I know are struggling with a private practice and thier former occupations support them. al --- rpmcguire <rpmcguire wrote: > Hi all, > > New to the group and trying to find some info on > acupuncturists and > salary. Does anybody know of information regarding > what an > acupuncturist might make upon graduation with a > Master's Degree in > Oriental Medicine? Thanks! > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Al That's part of the problem. There really are NO jobs for well trained acupuncturists ...YET. As DK Novotny clearly states.....love what you do and do what you love. Thats been my experience and as you might be able to see....I have created AOMNC out of nothing but a LOVE for what I do. AOMNC is already changing the AP/OM field to line up with the right forces to allow the profession to take it's rightful place. The new accrediting agencies aligned with NOMAA are presenting the OMD degree but as was stated...degree means nothing (to a certain extent)...STILL the profession needs a certain amount of respect that has been purposefully stiffled for the last 30 years. Hang in there. There IS a silver lining behind the veil of limitations. Regards, Richard Richard A. Freiberg, DOM, DAc, AP <A HREF= " www.aomnc.com " >www.aomnc.com</A> > > In my limited experience I seen only low paying jobs > for acupunctrist with the county Gov't for drug rehab. > and they had no forseable opening. You might find a > teaching spot at an Acupuncture shool or an intern > ship with a successful acupuncturist, both low paying. > Most Acupuncturist I know are struggling with a > private practice and thier former occupations support > them. > al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Debra, Is this for every part of the country? It seems unlikely that these figures would be true in New York or California? Is there somewhere to search for figures in individual states? Thank you for your information. Cindy - DEBRA ARKO NOVOTNY acupuncture Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:50 PM Re: acupuncture Typical income for acupuncturist? Welcome to the world of healing! (my spell-check, etc are not working so excuse any grammar problems etc.) In answer to your question most acpu. make about 15k- 25k net. There is a small group - less than 20% I believe that make a 6-figure income net. NOT gross. You didn't ask but I hope no one will shoot the massager if I give you food for thought and encouragement. I wish someone would have taken the time to write me this kind of letter many years ago when I started another business in another field. I learned the hard way but the wonderful insights allowed me to gain a very fun, healing and profitable practice. There may be those who disagree but in going to conferences all over the country this is what fellow TCM people tell me they make and I keep record as I teach a financial success course for holistic/Energetic healers as well as others courses. I can not talk to you about that as this is NOT the purpose of this chat room but I know my info to be accurate. Some TCM people tell me they make 40-60k but when we get down to it they really aren't. They make that gross or have low over-head and take home of 50%. Practice structure, overhead, etc all play a part so your question can not be answered. A better question may be " what is the average take home (net) of acupuncturists? And then other questions like do you practice in a private office, in-home, office building or a group practice. What is your total overhead, do you employee anyone, take insurance, etc. Only when I attended a finance class of many fields of business did I personally figure what I truly made. All-in-all one could say the field of acupuncture personal income is $0 to anything. As I have know of top people not working in the field due to other problems yet they may see only 2-4 people per yr. to keep their lic. May do not work at TCM FT only PT and others hold down other jobs. Only some work at this FT. I lecture all over the country and teach to many different types of holistic groups. My figures are based on that and what I have read. My goal in writing you is to inspire you to know you can be a great healer and make great money if you do what you love and love what you do. It is one of the universal principles that I teach when I lecture to any group. By the way your degree level means nothing. People go to healers not those who hold the best degree. Your education has just begun as the patient teaches us the most. You will do great just keep learning (taking worthwhile courses) and place your heart in healing and your mind in business. If you don't have a strong business background get one now and be careful of programs teaching you how to make a 100K or million. Or are just for one specialty. All programs have something of value make sure you go to the right one for you and your level of thinking/education. Ask how much money you will need to have to follow their ideas? How many people in your area are doing the same marketing - maybe you don't want to use over-used ideas. ASK for a list how many past students are making a million or what they suggest you will make if you follow their information and if they can't provide it why not? Is the $$ in gross or net? Its easy to make a 100k gross but only bring home 15-25k. With all the marketing expense of some workshops you have nothing left for you. The program should teach you about how to save what you make. Stay out of debt. How to market to those you know or have as patients etc. If it has you placing ads or spending money - many of these ideas are so over used they don't work or have never worked. Less than 1% get a fair return for acupu. ads in newspapers for instance. Yet one happy patient is worth 5 new patients according to stats. So make happy patients! How? Sorry I teach for part of my living and this is a chat room not a class room and I want to continue doing both in their own venues. Who ever you are I believe in you and you will be a great healer who also will have financial success. Some great reading to get you started is Power vs. Force. You'll understand by the end of the book why. It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with who you are or choose to become. . . . . And The Richest Man in Babylon a book that if you start following its laws of finance you will make what you should make in income and learn many things about yourself doing it. May you love what you do and have plenty in spirit and wealth, DN And remember it's not about your degree. For now don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Hello, I myself is not yet an acupuncturist and I am planning on going to school to do so. With the income part I think that it depends on how willing you are to work. My father is an acupuncturist and we have had a clinic here in Salt Lake City for over 20 years. He was actually the first one here in Salt Lake City, Utah licensed. I know that he makes 6 figure income gross, but the overhead is high. I think if you know how to work and manage well with finances you can do pretty well. My parents have worked hard for 20 years, but now my father will see maybe 10-20 patients per day or so. It goes up and down. The key is also if you love serving and helping others you will be able to provide a living. I am planning on helping my father after I get back from Acupuncture School and continue, I will still have to work hard. There is a strong client base here. Overall, I think that it is how willing you are to work, and that maybe the case on any business you start up on your own. See-You! Tyehao --- DEBRA ARKO NOVOTNY <novotnydk wrote: > Welcome to the world of healing! (my spell-check, > etc are not working so > excuse any grammar problems etc.) > > In answer to your question most acpu. make about > 15k- 25k net. There is a > small group - less than 20% I believe that make a > 6-figure income net. NOT > gross. > > You didn't ask but I hope no one will shoot the > massager if I give you food > for thought and encouragement. I wish someone would > have taken the time to > write me this kind of letter many years ago when I > started another business > in another field. I learned the hard way but the > wonderful insights allowed > me to gain a very fun, healing and profitable > practice. > > There may be those who disagree but in going to > conferences all over the > country this is what fellow TCM people tell me they > make and I keep record > as I teach a financial success course for > holistic/Energetic healers as well > as others courses. I can not talk to you about that > as this is NOT the > purpose of this chat room but I know my info to be > accurate. Some TCM > people tell me they make 40-60k but when we get down > to it they really > aren't. They make that gross or have low over-head > and take home of 50%. > > Practice structure, overhead, etc all play a part so > your question can not > be answered. A better question may be " what is the > average take home (net) > of acupuncturists? And then other questions like do > you practice in a > private office, in-home, office building or a group > practice. What is your > total overhead, do you employee anyone, take > insurance, etc. Only when I > attended a finance class of many fields of business > did I personally figure > what I truly made. > > All-in-all one could say the field of acupuncture > personal income is $0 to > anything. As I have know of top people not working > in the field due to other > problems yet they may see only 2-4 people per yr. to > keep their lic. May do > not work at TCM FT only PT and others hold down > other jobs. Only some work > at this FT. > > I lecture all over the country and teach to many > different types of holistic > groups. My figures are based on that and what I > have read. My goal in > writing you is to inspire you to know you can be a > great healer and make > great money if you do what you love and love what > you do. It is one of the > universal principles that I teach when I lecture to > any group. > > By the way your degree level means nothing. People > go to healers not those > who hold the best degree. Your education has just > begun as the patient > teaches us the most. You will do great just keep > learning (taking > worthwhile courses) and place your heart in healing > and your mind in > business. > > If you don't have a strong business background get > one now and be careful of > programs teaching you how to make a 100K or million. > Or are just for one > specialty. All programs have something of value make > sure you go to the > right one for you and your level of > thinking/education. > > Ask how much money you will need to have to follow > their ideas? How many > people in your area are doing the same marketing - > maybe you don't want to > use over-used ideas. ASK for a list how many past > students are making a > million or what they suggest you will make if you > follow their information > and if they can't provide it why not? Is the $$ in > gross or net? Its easy > to make a 100k gross but only bring home 15-25k. > With all the marketing > expense of some workshops you have nothing left for > you. > > The program should teach you about how to save what > you make. Stay out of > debt. How to market to those you know or have as > patients etc. If it has > you placing ads or spending money - many of these > ideas are so over used > they don't work or have never worked. Less than 1% > get a fair return for > acupu. ads in newspapers for instance. Yet one > happy patient is worth 5 new > patients according to stats. So make happy > patients! How? Sorry I teach > for part of my living and this is a chat room not a > class room and I want to > continue doing both in their own venues. > > Who ever you are I believe in you and you will be a > great healer who also > will have financial success. Some great reading to > get you started is Power > vs. Force. You'll understand by the end of the book > why. It has nothing to > do with money and everything to do with who you are > or choose to become. . . > . . And The Richest Man in Babylon a book that if > you start following its > laws of finance you will make what you should make > in income and learn many > things about yourself doing it. > > May you love what you do and have plenty in spirit > and wealth, > > DN > > And remember it's not about your degree. For now > don > Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Tyehao is right - this is the main charactistic I see in successful acupuncturists. - " Tyehao Lu " <tye_hao <acupuncture > Thursday, March 20, 2003 12:08 PM Re: acupuncture Typical income for acupuncturist? > Hello, > I myself is not yet an acupuncturist and I am planning > on going to school to do so. With the income part I > think that it depends on how willing you are to work. > My father is an acupuncturist and we have had a clinic > here in Salt Lake City for over 20 years. He was > actually the first one here in Salt Lake City, Utah > licensed. I know that he makes 6 figure income gross, > but the overhead is high. I think if you know how to > work and manage well with finances you can do pretty > well. My parents have worked hard for 20 years, but > now my father will see maybe 10-20 patients per day or > so. It goes up and down. The key is also if you love > serving and helping others you will be able to provide > a living. I am planning on helping my father after I > get back from Acupuncture School and continue, I will > still have to work hard. There is a strong client > base here. Overall, I think that it is how willing > you are to work, and that maybe the case on any > business you start up on your own. > > See-You! > Tyehao > --- DEBRA ARKO NOVOTNY <novotnydk wrote: > > Welcome to the world of healing! (my spell-check, > > etc are not working so > > excuse any grammar problems etc.) > > > > In answer to your question most acpu. make about > > 15k- 25k net. There is a > > small group - less than 20% I believe that make a > > 6-figure income net. NOT > > gross. > > > > You didn't ask but I hope no one will shoot the > > massager if I give you food > > for thought and encouragement. I wish someone would > > have taken the time to > > write me this kind of letter many years ago when I > > started another business > > in another field. I learned the hard way but the > > wonderful insights allowed > > me to gain a very fun, healing and profitable > > practice. > > > > There may be those who disagree but in going to > > conferences all over the > > country this is what fellow TCM people tell me they > > make and I keep record > > as I teach a financial success course for > > holistic/Energetic healers as well > > as others courses. I can not talk to you about that > > as this is NOT the > > purpose of this chat room but I know my info to be > > accurate. Some TCM > > people tell me they make 40-60k but when we get down > > to it they really > > aren't. They make that gross or have low over-head > > and take home of 50%. > > > > Practice structure, overhead, etc all play a part so > > your question can not > > be answered. A better question may be " what is the > > average take home (net) > > of acupuncturists? And then other questions like do > > you practice in a > > private office, in-home, office building or a group > > practice. What is your > > total overhead, do you employee anyone, take > > insurance, etc. Only when I > > attended a finance class of many fields of business > > did I personally figure > > what I truly made. > > > > All-in-all one could say the field of acupuncture > > personal income is $0 to > > anything. As I have know of top people not working > > in the field due to other > > problems yet they may see only 2-4 people per yr. to > > keep their lic. May do > > not work at TCM FT only PT and others hold down > > other jobs. Only some work > > at this FT. > > > > I lecture all over the country and teach to many > > different types of holistic > > groups. My figures are based on that and what I > > have read. My goal in > > writing you is to inspire you to know you can be a > > great healer and make > > great money if you do what you love and love what > > you do. It is one of the > > universal principles that I teach when I lecture to > > any group. > > > > By the way your degree level means nothing. People > > go to healers not those > > who hold the best degree. Your education has just > > begun as the patient > > teaches us the most. You will do great just keep > > learning (taking > > worthwhile courses) and place your heart in healing > > and your mind in > > business. > > > > If you don't have a strong business background get > > one now and be careful of > > programs teaching you how to make a 100K or million. > > Or are just for one > > specialty. All programs have something of value make > > sure you go to the > > right one for you and your level of > > thinking/education. > > > > Ask how much money you will need to have to follow > > their ideas? How many > > people in your area are doing the same marketing - > > maybe you don't want to > > use over-used ideas. ASK for a list how many past > > students are making a > > million or what they suggest you will make if you > > follow their information > > and if they can't provide it why not? Is the $$ in > > gross or net? Its easy > > to make a 100k gross but only bring home 15-25k. > > With all the marketing > > expense of some workshops you have nothing left for > > you. > > > > The program should teach you about how to save what > > you make. Stay out of > > debt. How to market to those you know or have as > > patients etc. If it has > > you placing ads or spending money - many of these > > ideas are so over used > > they don't work or have never worked. Less than 1% > > get a fair return for > > acupu. ads in newspapers for instance. Yet one > > happy patient is worth 5 new > > patients according to stats. So make happy > > patients! How? Sorry I teach > > for part of my living and this is a chat room not a > > class room and I want to > > continue doing both in their own venues. > > > > Who ever you are I believe in you and you will be a > > great healer who also > > will have financial success. Some great reading to > > get you started is Power > > vs. Force. You'll understand by the end of the book > > why. It has nothing to > > do with money and everything to do with who you are > > or choose to become. . . > > . . And The Richest Man in Babylon a book that if > > you start following its > > laws of finance you will make what you should make > > in income and learn many > > things about yourself doing it. > > > > May you love what you do and have plenty in spirit > > and wealth, > > > > DN > > > > And remember it's not about your degree. For now > > don > > > > > > > Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Cindy, I would have to say yes to some degree. . . no pun intended. All of the holistic practitioners (from that area) I have had the joy to consult or work beside/with have been in group practices. So they are reducing overhead by doing this. Many work out of their homes and many for MD's in NY I am told also. My patient load is about 35-38 patients per week when I am not teaching that week - I do not teach at a school I do advanced Energetic workshops for students, professionals and the public at large. My goal is to educate the world about holistic wellness and what we can do. I envision our true state of being-ness - we are providers of wellness not just illness care. My first week in practice I saw 18 patients and grew to over 55 patients in just a few months and then I backed it down to teach others about holistic medicine, financial success, and to find the healer within you. To know what your Energetic quota is for the week, the day, the hour and stick to it or the patients will drain you. My accountant will not allow me to tell you my income. I practice in the southwest in a large city with over 5 million people and 600 TCM people. We also have MANY DC's and MD's who do acup. Just got back from Florida where I worked with a group of acup. none making over 30k net. They were from the east coast and Fl. One super lady spent 10 years in various TCM/Oriental medicine schools - getting educated in China, etc. She is not seeing more than 3-5 patients per week after 3 years (?) in practice. This is why it is difficult to provide a true figure. Why is she not doing well? She has more education that most anyone I have ever consulted. Why do I do so much better? Again this is not the venue for me to teach in but to simply express thought and chat with others. . . . . . Food for thought could it be that I also studied business, sales, others forms of health care and healing, marketing, owned 2 pervious businesses and I also went to advanced seminars in every holistic health field I could WHILE in TCM school. I still log about 500 hours or more of class time as a student per year myself. I never quit learning or teaching what I learn. I know most can't do what I have done - this is why I teach. It is my calling to bring awareness to the holistic student, the holistic doctor/practitioner, and our current and future patients of what we can do for them. I feel I have a calling to bring what we do into the 21st century general public awareness and into our awareness. WE need to be successful and we should all be great at this and make a great living doing wellness care. There is no competition for those who wonder. Competition comes from a perceived void in oneself and their ability to provide this care. There are many pearls in what I have written can you find them all? Use them with peace and wisdom for you are a healer. Debra (Tayhao wrote a very potent comment about her/his father. What a beautiful family.) - " John C " <drastain <acupuncture > Thursday, March 20, 2003 10:19 AM Re: acupuncture Typical income for acupuncturist? > Debra, > Is this for every part of the country? It seems unlikely that these figures would be true in New York or California? Is there somewhere to search for figures in individual states? Thank you for your information. > Cindy > - > DEBRA ARKO NOVOTNY > acupuncture > Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:50 PM > Re: acupuncture Typical income for acupuncturist? > > > Welcome to the world of healing! (my spell-check, etc are not working so > excuse any grammar problems etc.) > > In answer to your question most acpu. make about 15k- 25k net. There is a > small group - less than 20% I believe that make a 6-figure income net. NOT > gross. > > You didn't ask but I hope no one will shoot the massager if I give you food > for thought and encouragement. I wish someone would have taken the time to > write me this kind of letter many years ago when I started another business > in another field. I learned the hard way but the wonderful insights allowed > me to gain a very fun, healing and profitable practice. > > There may be those who disagree but in going to conferences all over the > country this is what fellow TCM people tell me they make and I keep record > as I teach a financial success course for holistic/Energetic healers as well > as others courses. I can not talk to you about that as this is NOT the > purpose of this chat room but I know my info to be accurate. Some TCM > people tell me they make 40-60k but when we get down to it they really > aren't. They make that gross or have low over-head and take home of 50%. > > Practice structure, overhead, etc all play a part so your question can not > be answered. A better question may be " what is the average take home (net) > of acupuncturists? And then other questions like do you practice in a > private office, in-home, office building or a group practice. What is your > total overhead, do you employee anyone, take insurance, etc. Only when I > attended a finance class of many fields of business did I personally figure > what I truly made. > > All-in-all one could say the field of acupuncture personal income is $0 to > anything. As I have know of top people not working in the field due to other > problems yet they may see only 2-4 people per yr. to keep their lic. May do > not work at TCM FT only PT and others hold down other jobs. Only some work > at this FT. > > I lecture all over the country and teach to many different types of holistic > groups. My figures are based on that and what I have read. My goal in > writing you is to inspire you to know you can be a great healer and make > great money if you do what you love and love what you do. It is one of the > universal principles that I teach when I lecture to any group. > > By the way your degree level means nothing. People go to healers not those > who hold the best degree. Your education has just begun as the patient > teaches us the most. You will do great just keep learning (taking > worthwhile courses) and place your heart in healing and your mind in > business. > > If you don't have a strong business background get one now and be careful of > programs teaching you how to make a 100K or million. Or are just for one > specialty. All programs have something of value make sure you go to the > right one for you and your level of thinking/education. > > Ask how much money you will need to have to follow their ideas? How many > people in your area are doing the same marketing - maybe you don't want to > use over-used ideas. ASK for a list how many past students are making a > million or what they suggest you will make if you follow their information > and if they can't provide it why not? Is the $$ in gross or net? Its easy > to make a 100k gross but only bring home 15-25k. With all the marketing > expense of some workshops you have nothing left for you. > > The program should teach you about how to save what you make. Stay out of > debt. How to market to those you know or have as patients etc. If it has > you placing ads or spending money - many of these ideas are so over used > they don't work or have never worked. Less than 1% get a fair return for > acupu. ads in newspapers for instance. Yet one happy patient is worth 5 new > patients according to stats. So make happy patients! How? Sorry I teach > for part of my living and this is a chat room not a class room and I want to > continue doing both in their own venues. > > Who ever you are I believe in you and you will be a great healer who also > will have financial success. Some great reading to get you started is Power > vs. Force. You'll understand by the end of the book why. It has nothing to > do with money and everything to do with who you are or choose to become. .. . > . . And The Richest Man in Babylon a book that if you start following its > laws of finance you will make what you should make in income and learn many > things about yourself doing it. > > May you love what you do and have plenty in spirit and wealth, > > DN > > And remember it's not about your degree. For now don > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Richard, I am so happy to hear of someone else out there trying to make a change in how we are seen. I have personally looked into the doctorate programs and at this point decided to wait for NOMAA to assure me of this working this time. Someday I believe all TCM education will be at the OMD level to practice and I hear you on the history lesson of the past 30 years. lol, Debra - <acudoc11 <acupuncture > Thursday, March 20, 2003 8:31 AM Re: acupuncture Typical income for acupuncturist? > Al > > That's part of the problem. There really are NO jobs for well trained > acupuncturists ...YET. > > As DK Novotny clearly states.....love what you do and do what you love. Thats > been my experience and as you might be able to see....I have created AOMNC > out of nothing but a LOVE for what I do. AOMNC is already changing the AP/OM > field to line up with the right forces to allow the profession to take it's > rightful place. The new accrediting agencies aligned with NOMAA are > presenting the OMD degree but as was stated...degree means nothing (to a > certain extent)...STILL the profession needs a certain amount of respect that > has been purposefully stiffled for the last 30 years. > > Hang in there. There IS a silver lining behind the veil of limitations. > > Regards, > Richard > > Richard A. Freiberg, DOM, DAc, AP > <A HREF= " www.aomnc.com " >www.aomnc.com</A> > > > > > In my limited experience I seen only low paying jobs > > for acupunctrist with the county Gov't for drug rehab. > > and they had no forseable opening. You might find a > > teaching spot at an Acupuncture shool or an intern > > ship with a successful acupuncturist, both low paying. > > Most Acupuncturist I know are struggling with a > > private practice and thier former occupations support > > them. > > al > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 What are four treatments that we can do as advertised in a small ad? Clinic stuff , how would you treat the new Chalmyra disease? I think I spelled it right. I would treat it like Urethuritis and add a kidney massage and perhaps treat the conception vessel and the Gov/Concept link area in the head. Urinary bladder and gall bladder and liver points in the ears. Conception and liver nose points. Any other ideas? DEBRA ARKO NOVOTNY <novotnydk wrote:Cindy, I would have to say yes to some degree. . . no pun intended. All of the holistic practitioners (from that area) I have had the joy to consult or work beside/with have been in group practices. So they are reducing overhead by doing this. Many work out of their homes and many for MD's in NY I am told also. My patient load is about 35-38 patients per week when I am not teaching that week - I do not teach at a school I do advanced Energetic workshops for students, professionals and the public at large. My goal is to educate the world about holistic wellness and what we can do. I envision our true state of being-ness - we are providers of wellness not just illness care. My first week in practice I saw 18 patients and grew to over 55 patients in just a few months and then I backed it down to teach others about holistic medicine, financial success, and to find the healer within you. To know what your Energetic quota is for the week, the day, the hour and stick to it or the patients will drain you. My accountant will not allow me to tell you my income. I practice in the southwest in a large city with over 5 million people and 600 TCM people. We also have MANY DC's and MD's who do acup. Just got back from Florida where I worked with a group of acup. none making over 30k net. They were from the east coast and Fl. One super lady spent 10 years in various TCM/Oriental medicine schools - getting educated in China, etc. She is not seeing more than 3-5 patients per week after 3 years (?) in practice. This is why it is difficult to provide a true figure. Why is she not doing well? She has more education that most anyone I have ever consulted. Why do I do so much better? Again this is not the venue for me to teach in but to simply express thought and chat with others. . . . . . Food for thought could it be that I also studied business, sales, others forms of health care and healing, marketing, owned 2 pervious businesses and I also went to advanced seminars in every holistic health field I could WHILE in TCM school. I still log about 500 hours or more of class time as a student per year myself. I never quit learning or teaching what I learn. I know most can't do what I have done - this is why I teach. It is my calling to bring awareness to the holistic student, the holistic doctor/practitioner, and our current and future patients of what we can do for them. I feel I have a calling to bring what we do into the 21st century general public awareness and into our awareness. WE need to be successful and we should all be great at this and make a great living doing wellness care. There is no competition for those who wonder. Competition comes from a perceived void in oneself and their ability to provide this care. There are many pearls in what I have written can you find them all? Use them with peace and wisdom for you are a healer. Debra (Tayhao wrote a very potent comment about her/his father. What a beautiful family.) - " John C " <drastain <acupuncture > Thursday, March 20, 2003 10:19 AM Re: acupuncture Typical income for acupuncturist? > Debra, > Is this for every part of the country? It seems unlikely that these figures would be true in New York or California? Is there somewhere to search for figures in individual states? Thank you for your information. > Cindy > - > DEBRA ARKO NOVOTNY > acupuncture > Wednesday, March 19, 2003 3:50 PM > Re: acupuncture Typical income for acupuncturist? > > > Welcome to the world of healing! (my spell-check, etc are not working so > excuse any grammar problems etc.) > > In answer to your question most acpu. make about 15k- 25k net. There is a > small group - less than 20% I believe that make a 6-figure income net. NOT > gross. > > You didn't ask but I hope no one will shoot the massager if I give you food > for thought and encouragement. I wish someone would have taken the time to > write me this kind of letter many years ago when I started another business > in another field. I learned the hard way but the wonderful insights allowed > me to gain a very fun, healing and profitable practice. > > There may be those who disagree but in going to conferences all over the > country this is what fellow TCM people tell me they make and I keep record > as I teach a financial success course for holistic/Energetic healers as well > as others courses. I can not talk to you about that as this is NOT the > purpose of this chat room but I know my info to be accurate. Some TCM > people tell me they make 40-60k but when we get down to it they really > aren't. They make that gross or have low over-head and take home of 50%. > > Practice structure, overhead, etc all play a part so your question can not > be answered. A better question may be " what is the average take home (net) > of acupuncturists? And then other questions like do you practice in a > private office, in-home, office building or a group practice. What is your > total overhead, do you employee anyone, take insurance, etc. Only when I > attended a finance class of many fields of business did I personally figure > what I truly made. > > All-in-all one could say the field of acupuncture personal income is $0 to > anything. As I have know of top people not working in the field due to other > problems yet they may see only 2-4 people per yr. to keep their lic. May do > not work at TCM FT only PT and others hold down other jobs. Only some work > at this FT. > > I lecture all over the country and teach to many different types of holistic > groups. My figures are based on that and what I have read. My goal in > writing you is to inspire you to know you can be a great healer and make > great money if you do what you love and love what you do. It is one of the > universal principles that I teach when I lecture to any group. > > By the way your degree level means nothing. People go to healers not those > who hold the best degree. Your education has just begun as the patient > teaches us the most. You will do great just keep learning (taking > worthwhile courses) and place your heart in healing and your mind in > business. > > If you don't have a strong business background get one now and be careful of > programs teaching you how to make a 100K or million. Or are just for one > specialty. All programs have something of value make sure you go to the > right one for you and your level of thinking/education. > > Ask how much money you will need to have to follow their ideas? How many > people in your area are doing the same marketing - maybe you don't want to > use over-used ideas. ASK for a list how many past students are making a > million or what they suggest you will make if you follow their information > and if they can't provide it why not? Is the $$ in gross or net? Its easy > to make a 100k gross but only bring home 15-25k. With all the marketing > expense of some workshops you have nothing left for you. > > The program should teach you about how to save what you make. Stay out of > debt. How to market to those you know or have as patients etc. If it has > you placing ads or spending money - many of these ideas are so over used > they don't work or have never worked. Less than 1% get a fair return for > acupu. ads in newspapers for instance. Yet one happy patient is worth 5 new > patients according to stats. So make happy patients! How? Sorry I teach > for part of my living and this is a chat room not a class room and I want to > continue doing both in their own venues. > > Who ever you are I believe in you and you will be a great healer who also > will have financial success. Some great reading to get you started is Power > vs. Force. You'll understand by the end of the book why. It has nothing to > do with money and everything to do with who you are or choose to become. .. . > . . And The Richest Man in Babylon a book that if you start following its > laws of finance you will make what you should make in income and learn many > things about yourself doing it. > > May you love what you do and have plenty in spirit and wealth, > > DN > > And remember it's not about your degree. For now don > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2003 Report Share Posted March 25, 2003 What you are describing is a great deal better than it was 20 years ago. It works!! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2003 Report Share Posted September 29, 2003 Mr. Frieburg Some of your statements in your e-note about NOMAA and AOMNC are somewhat misleading. 1. NOMAA, the new accrediting agency you cited has not accredited any OM doctoral programs, and it is not used in any state, or approved by the US Department of Education as is, for example, ACAOM. According to a recent article in Acupuncture Today, ACAOM is considering developing standards for an entry-level doctorate through a public review and comment process. 2. Far from conducting a public process, NOMAA appears to be hiding its standards and procedures. According to the NOMAA President's interview published in Acupuncture Today, NOMAA already " adopted " its standards. Nobody but a select few (primarily a few of the leaders from the CA associations, and none from their general membership) had been given any opportunity to comment on their proposed content as they were developed, and the standards themselves have still not be made public! Sources tell me that when the NOMAA President recently gave a presentation to the California Acupuncture Board about this agency in Spring 03, he initially passed out packets to the acupuncture Board members which included NOMAA's standards and procedures, and then changed his mind and took back these documents when he discovered that if he provided them to the Board then any member of the public could request and obtain a copy. Nor has NOMAA shares its standards with the Florida Acupuncture Board when presentations were supposedly given to the Board about the agency. Why should the profession accept a new accrediting agency which hides its standards and dosn't allow those who might be affected by them to comment on them as they are developed??? 3. I noticed that you claim on the AOMNC web site that AOMNC has " the largest state membership in Florida " and you further state " ...now with CAOMA and our joint affiliation with lobbyist - Marcus & Associates, we represent the largest group of 'qualified acupuncture licensees' ever assembled in the United States. " How can you make these claims with a straight face when AOMNC is a for profit corporation, not a non-profit membership association where the membership have any say as to the policies and positions of this organization, or even who serves on its Board of Directors? Anyone who wants to review certain sections of AOMNC web site, must register to do so, and those who do are misleadingly called " members. " Your so-called " members " have no say in the policy positions taken by your for profit organization, which are determined and controlled exclusively by an unelected and unaccountable Board of Directors composed exclusively of yourself and Mr. Sontag. Your statements that AOMNC has the " largest state membership in Florida " and " represent the largest groups of qualified acupuncture licensees ever assembled in the US " is clearly misleading and inaccurate. I state this to correct misinformation. John acupuncture , acudoc11@a... wrote: > Al > > That's part of the problem. There really are NO jobs for well trained > acupuncturists ...YET. > > As DK Novotny clearly states.....love what you do and do what you love. Thats > been my experience and as you might be able to see....I have created AOMNC > out of nothing but a LOVE for what I do. AOMNC is already changing the AP/OM > field to line up with the right forces to allow the profession to take it's > rightful place. The new accrediting agencies aligned with NOMAA are > presenting the OMD degree but as was stated...degree means nothing (to a > certain extent)...STILL the profession needs a certain amount of respect that > has been purposefully stiffled for the last 30 years. > > Hang in there. There IS a silver lining behind the veil of limitations. > > Regards, > Richard > > Richard A. Freiberg, DOM, DAc, AP > <A HREF= " www.aomnc.com " >www.aomnc.com</A> > > > > > In my limited experience I seen only low paying jobs > > for acupunctrist with the county Gov't for drug rehab. > > and they had no forseable opening. You might find a > > teaching spot at an Acupuncture shool or an intern > > ship with a successful acupuncturist, both low paying. > > Most Acupuncturist I know are struggling with a > > private practice and thier former occupations support > > them. > > al > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2003 Report Share Posted September 30, 2003 It is your statements which incorrect and misleading - whomever you are. > I state this to correct misinformation. > > John > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Wow... Now THAT was an informative comeback... A few more like that and we'll have a quorum! -Michael acupuncture , acudoc11@a... wrote: > It is your statements which incorrect and misleading - whomever you are. > > > I state this to correct misinformation. > > > > John > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 Mr. Sontag: My comments pointing out erroneous statements in your previous note are excerpted below: <<<<<1. NOMAA, the new accrediting agency you cited has not accredited any OM doctoral programs, and it is not used in any state, or approved by the US Department of Education<<< <<<< We support what NOMAA is doing and trying to do to further the profession. Since AOMNC is not a membership organization (see below) your statement can only suggest that you and Mr. Freiberg " personally support what NOMAA is doing... to further the profession " , no more, no less. <<<<<2. Far from conducting a public process, NOMAA appears to be hiding its standards and procedures.  According to the NOMAA President’s interview published in Acupuncture Today, NOMAA already “adopted†its standards.  Nobody but a select few (primarily a few of the leaders from the CA associations, and none from their general membership) had been given any opportunity to comment on their proposed content as they were developed, and the standards themselves have still not be made public! <<<<<So?? the standards will not be a horse designed by a committee. A public comment is just that a comment .. not binding. We get public comment all day long ... and what a surprise.... we even factor them in....... Standards for accrediting agencies are supposed to be designed and developed with public input, including making proposed standards public and affording all practitioner groups, schools, students, faculty, state boards, etc... who wish to do so the opportunity to comment on those standards as they are developed. What your note totally ignores is that NOMAA's standards development process was a " private club " process where only a select few were invited to provide input. Your statement that " we get public comment all day long.. and we even factor them in " is pretty amazing in that NOMAA has already DEVELOPED its standards in private (without any public review and comment process) and has still not even made the " adopted standards " available for public review. <<<<<<Sources tell me that when the NOMAA President recently gave a presentation to the California Acupuncture Board about this agency in Spring 03, he initially passed out packets to the acupuncture Board members which included NOMAA's standards and procedures, and then changed his mind and took back these documents when he discovered that if he provided them to the Board then any member of the public could request and obtain a copy. <<<<<<Sources tell me the moon is made of cheese. Now that is a " substantive response " !!! If anyone wants to know the accuracy of the NOMAA President withholding NOMAA's standards and procedures from the CA Acupuncture Board when he learned that by sharing them they become publicly available can simply ask the many folks who observed this hearing. I have. <<<<<<<I noticed that you claim on the AOMNC web site that AOMNC has " the largest state membership in Florida " and you further state " ...now with CAOMA and our joint affiliation with lobbyist - Marcus & Associates, we represent the largest group of 'qualified acupuncture licensees' ever assembled in the United States. " How can you make these claims with a straight face....when AOMNC is a for profit corporation, not a non-profit where membership association where the membership have any say as to the policies and positions of this organization,or even who serves on its Board of Directors? <<<<Well John, We can make such a claims with a straight face cause it is true.....Welcome to America ..... but I think you are naive.... non-profits generate lots of income ... it is just a matter of bookkeeping. Just the same AOMNC membership is free. Do you really think so??? It has not been my personal experience over the years. This has nothing to do with for profit or not for profit .... a board of directors... corporate bylaws set such things. It is your statements which are naive. In true membership organizations, the members have a say in the organization's public policies, either directly or through having the power to determine who represents them as members of the organization's board. AOMNC's so-called " members " have no such power. They have no say as to AOMNC's public policies and they have no right to determine who serves as their represenatives on AOMNC's Board. As a for profit corporation, all policy decisions are made and determined solely by you and Mr. Freiberg alone and the " members " simply have no say. Anyone who wants to review the " membership benefits " section of the AOMNC web site must " register " and are incorrectly called members. Registering to review an organization's " membership benefits " on a web site does not make this organization a membership organization. Lets compare this to AAOM's democratic structure. AAOM's Board members are elected by the AAOM membership, and constantly seeks feedback from its members through its web site and other venues as to the policies that AAOM should adopt or support. AOMNC is not in any shape or form a membership organization as that term is understood and applied in the US. Mr. Sontag, the only way you can prove this wrong would be to post AOMNC's Bylaws which specifically address " membership rights " to determine AOMNC policy or appoint its Board on your web site and you cant, because AOMNC's so- called " members " have no rights. They cant determine AOMNC policy, and they cant even determine who respresents them on the AOMNC Board of Directors. >>>>>Anyone who wants to review certain sections of AOMNC web site, must register to do so, and those who do are misleadingly called " members. <<<<<<Please John.... you are overstating..... it is clearly stated you become a member when you join... and you need to join for full access to the website... just like most, if not all other associations. If what you say is true, please name for me a single " reputable " membership organization where to read the " membership benefits " section on the organizations' web site you must " register " as a member. You wont find any because they don't exist. One would think that membership benefits would be described to the prospective member to allow them to decide whether or not they want to be members. I have to hand it to you, however, that you do pique the curiosity of readers to your web site by doing this in that they register for free to simply read this otherwise closed section of your web site, not because they really support the policies which have been determined by you and Mr. Frieberg alone, or want to become members. >>>>>>Your so-called " members " have no say in the policy positions taken by your for profit organization, which are determined and controlled exclusively by an unelected and unaccountable Board ofs composed of yourself and Mr. Sontag. <<<<<<Well, John ... this you opinion.... Richard and I hear input daily form interested parties, both by phone and email.... we are easy to find and reach..... What you describe sounds more like a benevolent dictatorship -- as even dictators will hear from their " interested subjects " , but it does not make for a true membership organization for the reasons described above. In membership organizations, members have voting rights which are totally absent in AOMNC..... If I am wrong, please name for me a single " reputable " professional membership organization where members have absolutely no voting rights. I am not trying to tear AOMNC down. However, you keep publishing information which is clearly misleading and I am pointing out to the readers of the acupuncture forum the facts. John acupuncture , David Sontag <acudoc@b...> wrote: > OK.... Michael and John, > > Let's get it out in the open what statements are misleading? > > Some of your statements in your e-note about NOMAA and AOMNC are somewhat > misleading. > > >>>1. NOMAA, the new accrediting agency you cited has not accredited any OM > doctoral programs, and it is not used in any state, or approved by the US > Department of Education<<< > > We support what NOMAA is doing and trying to do to further the profession. > > >>>>>as is, for example, ACAOM. According to a recent article in > Acupuncture Today, ACAOM is considering developing standards for > an entry-level doctorate through a public review and comment process.<<<<< > > So??? > > >>> 2. Far from conducting a public process, NOMAA appears to be hiding its > standards and procedures.  According to the NOMAA President’s interview > published in Acupuncture Today, NOMAA already “adopted†its standards.<<< >  Nobody but a select few (primarily a few of the leaders from the CA > associations, and none from their general membership) had been given any > opportunity to comment on their proposed content as they were developed, and > the standards themselves have still not be made public!  > > So?? the standards will not be a horse designed by a committee. A public > comment is just that a comment .. not binding. We get public comment all > day long ... and what a surprise.... we even factor them in....... > > >>>>Sources tell me that when the NOMAA President recently gave a > presentation to the California > Acupuncture Board about this agency in Spring 03, he initially passed out > packets to the acupuncture Board members which included NOMAA's standards > and procedures, and then changed his mind and took back these documents when > he discovered that if he provided them to the Board then any member of the > public could request and obtain a copy.<<<< > > Sources tell me the moon is made of cheese. > > >>>>>>Nor has NOMAA shares its standards with the Florida Acupuncture > Board when presentations were supposedly given > to the Board about the agency.<<<<<< > > I have been to all recent Florida BOA Meeting NOMAA has never presented. > But sources tell me...... > > >>>>> Why should the profession accept a new > accrediting agency which hides its standards and dosn’t allow those who > might be affected by them to comment on them as they are developed???<<<<<<< > > Well.... you John... are you now claiming to be part of the profession??? > .... you do not have to accept them ... just do not attend schools that are > or will become accredited by them . No one is forcing you or the profession > to do anything.... but you will be offered a choice. BTW do have one now > ???... is that forcing??? > > >>>>>> I noticed that you claim on the AOMNC web site that AOMNC has " the > largest state membership in Florida " and you further state " ...now with > CAOMA and our joint affiliation with lobbyist - Marcus & Associates, we > represent the largest group of 'qualified acupuncture licensees' ever > assembled in the United States. " How can you make these claims with a > straight face > > Well John, We can make such a claims with a straight face cause it is true..... > > > when AOMNC is a for profit corporation, not a non-profit > > Welcome to America ..... but I think you are naive.... non-profits > generate lots of income ... it is just a matter of bookkeeping. Just the > same AOMNC membership is free. > > membership association where the membership have any say as to the policies > and positions of this organization, > > Do you really think so??? It has not been my personal experience over the > years. > > or even who serves on its Board of Directors? > > This has nothing to do with for profit or not for profit .... a board of > directors... corporate bylaws set such things. > > .>>>>>Anyone who wants to review certain sections of AOMNC web site, > must register to do so, and those who do are misleadingly called " members.<<<<< > > Please John.... you are overstating..... it is clearly stated you become a > member when you join... and you need to join for full access to the > website... just like most, if not all other associations. > > >>>>>>Your so-called " members " have no say in the policy positions taken > by your > for profit organization, which are determined and controlled exclusively by > an unelected and unaccountable Board of Directors composed of yourself and > Mr. Sontag.<<<< > > Well, John ... this you opinion.... Richard and I hear input daily form > interested parties, both by phone and email.... we are easy to find and > reach. After all we have heard from you... now. And now that we have heard > from you what are you doing to help move the profession forward... other > then try and tear the AOMNC down???? We would all like to hear what you > are personally doing and who you are??? > > >>>>>>Your statements that AOMNC has the " largest state membership > in Florida " and " represent the largest groups of qualified acupuncture > licensees ever assembled in the US " is clearly misleading and inaccurate. > > I state this to correct misinformation.<<<<<< > > Let's leave it at this John... are you saying we are lying about our > membership numbers?? Tell you what.... I will send you a non- disclosure > agreement.... you sign and return it. Then meet Richard and me at one of > our offices in Florida ( I believe you are in Alabama??) and we will show > you our membership list. But it is going to cost you .... bring your > check book.... but not for us ... when you see we are the largest ..... > write a check to Marcus and Associates to help the lobbying effort for the > National Acupuncture bill..... or are you against that as well? > > John > > > David Sontag > Doctor of Oriental Medicine > Co-Founder AOMNC > > At 08:35 AM 10/3/2003, you wrote: > >Wow... Now THAT was an informative comeback... > > > >A few more like that and we'll have a quorum! > > > >-Michael > > > >acupuncture , acudoc11@a... wrote: > > > It is your statements which incorrect and misleading - whomever you > >are. > > > > > > > I state this to correct misinformation. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 There is a guy named Mickey(if I remember correctly) in Tenessee making 1 million a year. Yes six zeros. He specializes Acu for men with Benign Prostate Hyperplasia. You should be able to look him up and ask him. acupuncture , albert conliffe <alconliffe> wrote: > In my limited experience I seen only low paying jobs > for acupunctrist with the county Gov't for drug rehab. > and they had no forseable opening. You might find a > teaching spot at an Acupuncture shool or an intern > ship with a successful acupuncturist, both low paying. > Most Acupuncturist I know are struggling with a > private practice and thier former occupations support > them. > al > > --- rpmcguire <rpmcguire> wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > New to the group and trying to find some info on > > acupuncturists and > > salary. Does anybody know of information regarding > > what an > > acupuncturist might make upon graduation with a > > Master's Degree in > > Oriental Medicine? Thanks! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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