RE: I'd get Dr. Tiller's three very complex books

[Guest guest]

Hi William, Doc, and group,

 

Dr William Tiller from Stanford University

was the head of the solid state physics department for many years. You don’t

get to be head of a department of physics at a major university of Stanford’s’

caliber without being a renowned scientist in your field. While I think that

often his years of work in solid state physics narrows his interpretation of

the data in a way that I personally think is too limiting, his work is still

very good. He does present solid experimental work and his theories are closer

to mine than any other writer out there save one.

 

Sir Roger Penrose wrote a series of books

on consciousness that are quite good. I have met the man and he is a very well

versed gentleman and a scholar. If you think his name sounds familiar you are

right. He invented fractal geometry, Penrose tiling, and chaos theory. His best

friend was another Oxford

scholar named David Bohm who was a well known physicist that argued with peers

such as Einstein and Feynman.

 

Penrose wrote some very good books on

consciousness that cover the physics in detail without using a lot of

mathematics by describing the behavior of the systems in real world terms. I

personally feel that every undergrad physics student should read them as an

introduction to physics.

 

They are well written but they lack one

thing that experimentalists such as Doc and myself like and that’s

experiments we can do in the real world to verify his thought experiments on

what consciousness is.

 

Still, the review of physics and

speculative application of its principles to understanding what consciousness

is in Penrose’s books makes a good precursor to really understand what

Tiller is saying in his books.

 

And Tiller would probably find himself

more in agreement with Penrose than I do because they both choose models of

consciousness that don’t have room for free will by the embedded hidden

presuppositions in the logic they both use (something Dr. Penrose and I

discussed when I met him to which he pointed to the one place in his work where

he effectively swept the issue under the rug and stated that belongs in that

insoluble term). It is this that makes me feel that their years of experience

limit their theories and the reason why while I agree with a lot of what they

both have to say on consciousness, intention and the interconnection of that with

the physical through these material forms we call human bodies I still disagree

on certain of the particulars.

 

To better understand my position one would

need to study quantum field theory and Lie algebra. Then I could discuss the

non-Abelian nature of consciousness and quantum mechanics and the connection

between those and free will, the importance of those characteristics and the

myriad possibilities that opens for us as conscious beings.

 

I think anyone that truly wants to

approach this from a scientific perspective should start with Nick Herbert’s

book “Quantum Reality” so as to get some idea of the non-Abelian

behavior of Quantum mechanics… the bizarre nature of it. And to get a

clear understanding of the different theories about what it means so that you

won’t listen to someone that has their metaphors all mixed together and

uses mutually incompatible approaches to what quantum mechanics means

indiscriminately like certain trainers (RB) so that when you read the myriad

books (both scientific and pseudo-scientific) by people attempting to

understand energy, consciousness, intention, attitude, etc. you will be able to

discern which ones actually understand and say something that makes sense from

the ones making up garbage that is unverifiable and often self contradictory.

 

Anyway, that is one physicist’s

comment on this thread…

 

Walter Hurlbut PhD physics

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of docspeed2001

Friday, March 20, 2009 3:49

PM

To:

 

Subject:

I'd get Dr. Tiller's three very complex books

 

 

 

 

 

,

" William Leigh " <william4x5 wrote:

 

> Theta Healing offers another structure.

 

Hi William,

 

I don't buy their structure.

 

In fact I 'think' when I compare my experiences (with healing, remote viewing

& energy work) and my training with much of their structure...

 

....they can do much better.

 

When I say 'much better' I am referencing the methodology of how they verify

what they say, and how they 'teach' what they believe.

 

(The seven planes snipped)

 

This is also close to the structure that Jose Silva gave around 1965 with his

Silva Mind Control (remember that Mind Control IS HYPNOSIS).

 

Jose did study much of Theosophy and the AMORC stuff, along with much new age

stuff.

 

And, another researcher, George W. Meek, did give similar diagrams in his 1972

book, " From Enigma To Science " on page 86.

 

> Vianna's Book give this structure in much more detail.

 

Compared to whom?

 

I think she is extrapolating from those that went before. That is called

'research', just like Blavasky did 'research' to write her books.

 

I also think she is borrowing.

 

I did enjoy her book.

 

I do suggest people interested in healing get it.

 

I also suggest they DO LIKE SHE DID and get some hypnosis training!!!

 

> At Maharishi

International University,

MIU, a structure was >provides showing where the present class or topic fell

into the >overall picture. Each diagram always had the Grand Unified Field

as >one of its bases and practical applications on the other side. Good

>enough teaching aid.

 

Well,

 

Now we are getting into 'druthers', for example " I'd druther this be true

than that be true, etc " .

 

I'd 'druther' be 39 again, than my actual age. But it ain't going to happen.

 

I personally dislike Transendental Meditation being taught the way it is

taught. Sort of pissed me off way back then when I took it (around 1970).

 

It is taught for dolphins (another word for Earth Elements) and for the

peaceniks. Remember the Viet Nam War was still going on and I was ex-military

(Army Security Agency).

 

There was NO psychic rapport between them and I.

 

Now I do LOVE some of Deepak's works.

 

(snipped)

 

Again, my problem with Vianna's stuff is NOT Vianna. It is the lack of proper

training methods on how-to-consciously build mind bridges between the different

aspects of mind.

 

Without that being build, only hallucinations are repeatable.

 

Hallucinations will NOT heal anyone.

 

(NOW this post is getting ON-TOPIC for this discussion group!!!)

 

About 10% of the population are 'naturally psychic' (Jose's testing came up

with those numbers) SOME OF THE TIME.

 

But because of no training, they cannot REPEAT what they accidentally do once

in a while.

 

This is the trap MOST healers fall into without the proper training.

 

You want at least 80% accuracy and NOT 10%.

 

And John Grinder also modeled healers (about 1985 and it's on audio), and John

noticed their were about 5% of the people that he could not heal even using the

modeling process.

 

Some people just have a certain 'attitude' that by-passes the healer's

processes, and it is a particular personality trait.

 

> I was looking through Tillman's websites and I didn't notice any

>technology that he was developing, but only that he was looking for >a

parallel understanding between the sciences and meta-sciences.

 

You are looking in the wrong place.

 

I'd get Dr. Tiller's three very complex books. You can find them on amazon.

 

And I really do believe that Dr. Tiller 'believes' he is simplying what he's

done so us 'non-physic' students can understand, but...

 

....I'd get a dictionary, and someone that actually knows science (physics) on

an intimate level to help explain what he has VERIFIED in his experimentation

over the past 35 years with dowsing, remote viewing, remote healing and his

'intention' experiments.

 

For me, I got my long time friend and student (21 years now) Dr. Walter Hurlbut

to assist me.

 

And Doc Walter does not agree with everything Dr. Tiller says...but there is

enough understanding between their education that I can learn better.

 

> ...I think his research shows promise. MIU researches have been

> proving their theories for decades and no one pays them any mind,

> so I hope that Tillman has better success.

 

It does.

 

He is.

 

Why?

 

I'm pretty sure one of the reasons is because he DOES NOT come from a religious

angle, (notice I did NOT say 'spiritual')...

 

John La Tourrette, PhD

[Guest guest]

Walter Hurlbut,Doc and others,

 

Just to clarify:

 

Dr. Hurlburt mentioned two ways of validation. The first proved the non local

aspects of ESP by demonstrating ability to " read " playing cards from outer

space. I imagine that statistical methods were used to prove the astronaut had

consistent above average ability with ESP.

 

 

In the second method you mentioned the Zip Up technique that is verifiable with

energy testing. Then you further demonstrated that the Zip Up technique and

other techniques from Donna Eden also fall within the understanding of modern

science for improving health.

 

Does energy testing also fall within the understanding of modern science as a

validation process?

 

Sincerely,

 

William Leigh

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " Walter Hurlbut "

<whurlbut wrote:

>

> Hi Group,

>

>

>

> Verifiable experiments come in many forms.

>

>

>

> One experiment that an Apollo astronaut did was to test whether his ESP

> decreased with distance. So he did the card type experiment where one person

> looks at a card and the other (the astronaut at the moon) attempts to pick

> up what the card is and writes down his 'guess'. And then he picked cards

> for the psychic on earth to 'guess'.

>

>

>

> Their success rate was still above probability and the same over the 8 day

> journey. If it were energy transmission rather than quantum data

> teleportation via entanglement the skill would have dropped with the square

> of the distance just like any radiating wave from a source whether we are

> talking electromagnetic or gravity. As the energy of such a source spreads

> out the surface area the energy is spread upon grows as the square of the

> distance. At some point the reception would drop and introduce errors.

> Consider how fast your radio sources drop off as you move away from them and

> then realize that they are typically radiating with 50,000 to 100,000 watts.

> That's >60 horsepower just to put it in perspective for you for what it

> would be like as a mechanical energy.

>

>

>

> And if the human nervous system were sensitive enough to receive the signal

> at a quarter of a million miles away then at a few miles we would all be

> perfect telepaths. This was very conclusive proof that the phenomenon was

> nonlocal.

>

>

>

> Another simple experiment that verifies the electrodynamic nature of the

> energy fields that are known to have limited range is the zipping up and

> down technique Doc demonstrates and verifies with energy testing. The more

> one is in an alpha-theta state of mind while doing this the better. It is

> interesting to note that one of the signs of this state of mind is red eyes

> due to increased relaxation of the arteries and veins resulting in increased

> blood flow. One can add the experiment of doing this same drill with extreme

> tension versus relaxing the arm and hand as much as possible and note the

> increased effectiveness in that as well.

>

>

>

> And why is increase blood flow important to me as a major component of the

> theory relating the shorter range energy fields of the body? Because blood

> is an electrolyte (mixture of free charges of both positive and negative

> types with different masses and charges) AKA plasma. So the behavior of a

> moving plasma at low temperatures is quite well known. And the magnetic and

> electric fields that are generated by the motion are calculable. The

> interaction of such is in line with the results of this drill. Moving in

> opposition to the central field with a sharply shaped field results in

> retardation of flow and thus decreased available energy and increased

> tension losses as well is an involuntary response in the body to constrict

> arteries and decrease blood flow. (I wonder what that would do to

> suggestibility when the frontal lobe gets less blood). When one moves in the

> direction consistent with the blood flow it increases ones' strength and

> helps to protect from suggestibility. And that movement over other lines in

> the body that correspond to either both or one of the two following plasma

> systems in the body seems to correspond just as well: blood, lymphatic.

>

>

>

> These small fields are now within the range of measurement and scientist

> around the world are building detectors and measuring them. I know one

> plasma physicist that was cooperating in a grant to build such detectors 9

> years ago. He never sent me the results of the study. But there was a book

> recently published and listed in a scientific journal I read about exactly

> these types of measurements. I immediately referred it to Doc and he

> subsequently ordered it.

>

>

>

> There is a lot of new information coming out on top of the older suppressed

> information in many areas. I suspect much of the new information will result

> in a new wave of information suppression and disinformation as has always

> been done in the past.

>

>

>

> Anyway.

>

>

>

> Most people writing books on consciousness propose theories as to what

> consciousness is but no experiments that can confirm/negate the theories.

>

>

>

> The first experiment I mentioned confirms non-locality and since the only

> identified measureable area of physics known to have that quality

> (nonlocality) at this time is the well experimentally verified quantum

> theory we can conclude that it is the only remaining branch of physics with

> a chance to explain consciousness from that experiment alone. Although that

> isn't the only experiment to suggest consciousness is quantum mechanical in

> nature. It is just an example of an experimental verification procedure that

> most books on this subject lack. The second experiment demonstrates the

> properties of our body that tie the physical to the quantum

> mechanical/consciousness realm.

>

>

>

> I could do far more examples.but I think I will save that for a book

> someday.

>

>

>

> Hopefully, I gave you all some simple food for thought on the subject of

> reproducible verifiable experimentation to back up your claims

>

>

>

> Walter

>

>

>

> PS as a parting comment I find the recent studies on the placebo effect

> demonstrate some interesting information that suggests the placebo effect is

> actually several different effects and that the importance of it is much

> greater to science than is currently considered by your standard physicians

> who still haven't learned to understand Einstein's famous comment, " the

> observer affects what he observes " .

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

> On Behalf Of

> William Leigh

> Tuesday, March 24, 2009 11:41 AM

>

> Re: I'd get Dr. Tiller's three

> very complex books

>

>

>

> Thanks for your book recommendations. I will check out Quantum Reality soon.

>

>

> The part of your post that most grabbed my attention was:

>

> " They are well written but they lack one thing that experimentalists such as

> Doc and myself like and that's experiments we can do in the real world to

> verify his thought experiments on what consciousness is. "

>

> Could you explain this a little more?

>

> Many popular modern modalities are practiced with little validation. They

> are often practiced for entertainment and sometimes give valid experience.

> It is the hope of practitioners to actually perform a " Miracle " of healing,

> but we all know that this is often not the outcome.

>

> So what experiments can you do in the real world to validate consciousness?

> Where have you been successful? Which areas show promise?

>

> Thanks in advance,

>

> William

>

[Guest guest]

Dana,

 

You might check the archive or back post of this group...

 

or go to amazon.com and search for " William A. Tiller Ph.D. "

 

Psychoenergetic Science; Science and Human Transformation: Subtle Energies,

Intentionality and Consciousness; Conscious Acts of Creation

 

Greg

 

 

, Dana Hawkins

<amebameows wrote:

>

> Hi Walter ,I must of missed your book titles but am interested could you

please re-post?.Have you done anything with vortex theory " s with quantum

electromagnetic unified field and consciousness?I have heard about someone who

has  noticed that everyone has a lil vortex on the back of their head right in

line with the third eye area  thank you Dana    p.s. interesting letter I

enjoyed  it very much

>

> --- On Wed, 3/25/09, Walter Hurlbut <whurlbut wrote:

>

>

> Walter Hurlbut <whurlbut

> RE: Re: I'd get Dr. Tiller's three

very complex books

>

> Wednesday, March 25, 2009, 7:54 AM

>

>

Hi Group,

>  

> Verifiable experiments come in many forms.

>  

> One experiment that an Apollo astronaut did was to test whether his ESP

decreased with distance. So he did the card type experiment where one person

looks at a card and the other (the astronaut at the moon) attempts to pick up

what the card is and writes down his ‘guess’. And then he picked cards for

the psychic on earth to ‘guess’.

>  

> Their success rate was still above probability and the same over the 8 day

journey. If it were energy transmission rather than quantum data teleportation

via entanglement the skill would have dropped with the square of the distance

just like any radiating wave from a source whether we are talking

electromagnetic or gravity. As the energy of such a source spreads out the

surface area the energy is spread upon grows as the square of the distance. At

some point the reception would drop and introduce errors. Consider how fast your

radio sources drop off as you move away from them and then realize that they are

typically radiating with 50,000 to 100,000 watts. That’s >60 horsepower just

to put it in perspective for you for what it would be like as a mechanical

energy.

>  

> And if the human nervous system were sensitive enough to receive the signal at

a quarter of a million miles away then at a few miles we would all be perfect

telepaths. This was very conclusive proof that the phenomenon was nonlocal.

>  

> Another simple experiment that verifies the electrodynamic nature of the

energy fields that are known to have limited range is the zipping up and down

technique Doc demonstrates and verifies with energy testing. The more one is in

an alpha-theta state of mind while doing this the better. It is interesting to

note that one of the signs of this state of mind is red eyes due to increased

relaxation of the arteries and veins resulting in increased blood flow. One can

add the experiment of doing this same drill with extreme tension versus relaxing

the arm and hand as much as possible and note the increased effectiveness in

that as well.

>  

> And why is increase blood flow important to me as a major component of the

theory relating the shorter range energy fields of the body? Because blood is an

electrolyte (mixture of free charges of both positive and negative types with

different masses and charges) AKA plasma. So the behavior of a moving plasma at

low temperatures is quite well known. And the magnetic and electric fields that

are generated by the motion are calculable. The interaction of such is in line

with the results of this drill. Moving in opposition to the central field with a

sharply shaped field results in retardation of flow and thus decreased available

energy and increased tension losses as well is an involuntary response in the

body to constrict arteries and decrease blood flow. (I wonder what that would do

to suggestibility when the frontal lobe gets less blood). When one moves in the

direction consistent with the blood flow it increases ones’ strength and helps

to protect

> from suggestibility. And that movement over other lines in the body that

correspond to either both or one of the two following plasma systems in the body

seems to correspond just as well: blood, lymphatic.

>  

> These small fields are now within the range of measurement and scientist

around the world are building detectors and measuring them. I know one plasma

physicist that was cooperating in a grant to build such detectors 9 years ago.

He never sent me the results of the study. But there was a book recently

published and listed in a scientific journal I read about exactly these types of

measurements. I immediately referred it to Doc and he subsequently ordered it.

>  

> There is a lot of new information coming out on top of the older suppressed

information in many areas. I suspect much of the new information will result in

a new wave of information suppression and disinformation as has always been done

in the past.

>  

> Anyway…

>  

> Most people writing books on consciousness propose theories as to what

consciousness is but no experiments that can confirm/negate the theories.

>  

> The first experiment I mentioned confirms non-locality and since the only

identified measureable area of physics known to have that quality (nonlocality)

at this time is the well experimentally verified quantum theory we can conclude

that it is the only remaining branch of physics with a chance to explain

consciousness from that experiment alone. Although that isn’t the only

experiment to suggest consciousness is quantum mechanical in nature. It is just

an example of an experimental verification procedure that most books on this

subject lack. The second experiment demonstrates the properties of our body that

tie the physical to the quantum mechanical/consciou sness realm.

>  

> I could do far more examples…but I think I will save that for a book

someday.

>  

> Hopefully, I gave you all some simple food for thought on the subject of

reproducible verifiable experimentation to back up your claims

>  

> Walter

>  

> PS as a parting comment I find the recent studies on the placebo effect

demonstrate some interesting information that suggests the placebo effect is

actually several different effects and that the importance of it is much greater

to science than is currently considered by your standard physicians who still

haven’t learned to understand Einstein’s famous comment, “the observer

affects what he observesâ€.

>  

>

>

>

>

> healingenergies- essentialskills [healingener

gies-essentialsk ills@ .com] On Behalf Of William Leigh

> Tuesday, March 24, 2009 11:41 AM

> healingenergies- essentialskills

> [healingenergies- essentialskills] Re: I'd get Dr. Tiller's three

very complex books

>  

>

>

>

> Thanks for your book recommendations. I will check out Quantum Reality soon..

>

> The part of your post that most grabbed my attention was:

>

> " They are well written but they lack one thing that experimentalists such as

Doc and myself like and that's experiments we can do in the real world to verify

his thought experiments on what consciousness is. "

>

> Could you explain this a little more?

>

> Many popular modern modalities are practiced with little validation. They are

often practiced for entertainment and sometimes give valid experience. It is the

hope of practitioners to actually perform a " Miracle " of healing, but we all

know that this is often not the outcome.

>

> So what experiments can you do in the real world to validate consciousness?

Where have you been successful? Which areas show promise?

>

> Thanks in advance,

>

> William

>