Guest guest Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 Sarcasm and pot shots from the peanut gallery is hardly worth the time to respond. When those who wish to come out from hiding their identities.......and say something intelligent.......then maybe there will be something to talk about. Usually it is the untrained 'weekend warriors'........who say things such as has been stated. > > > Wow... Now THAT was an informative comeback... > > A few more like that and we'll have a quorum! > > -Michael > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 Here is the deal John.... I will be willing to dialog with you about all this ... once you identify yourself... until then both Dr. Freiberg and I will not engage you... all be it you posts have little or no merit. Full name, address, phone number, profession ... since you and everyone else knows who we are and how to reach us ... we want to know who you are .... then we can continue. If you are not will to tell all us this info you are just someone hiding in the shadows trying to harm the profession.... and the AOMNC David Sontag Doctor of Oriental Medicine Co-Founder AOMNC At 03:09 PM 10/21/2003, you wrote: >Mr. Sontag: > >My comments pointing out erroneous statements in your previous note >are excerpted below: > ><<<<<1. NOMAA, the new accrediting agency you cited has not >accredited any OM doctoral programs, and it is not used in any state, >or approved by the US Department of Education<<< > ><<<< We support what NOMAA is doing and trying to do to further the >profession. > >Since AOMNC is not a membership organization (see below) your >statement can only suggest that you and Mr. Freiberg " personally >support what NOMAA is doing... to further the profession " , no more, >no less. > ><<<<<2. Far from conducting a public process, NOMAA appears to be >hiding its standards and procedures.  According to the NOMAA >President’s interview published in Acupuncture Today, NOMAA already >“adopted†its standards.  Nobody but a select few (primarily a >few of the leaders from the CA associations, and none from their >general membership) had been given any opportunity to comment on >their proposed content as they were developed, and the standards >themselves have still not be made public! > ><<<<<So?? the standards will not be a horse designed by a committee. >A public comment is just that a comment .. not binding. We get public >comment all day long ... and what a surprise.... we even factor them >in....... > >Standards for accrediting agencies are supposed to be designed and >developed with public input, including making proposed standards >public and affording all practitioner groups, schools, students, >faculty, state boards, etc... who wish to do so the opportunity to >comment on those standards as they are developed. What your note >totally ignores is that NOMAA's standards development process was >a " private club " process where only a select few were invited to >provide input. Your statement that " we get public comment all day >long.. and we even factor them in " is pretty amazing in that NOMAA >has already DEVELOPED its standards in private (without any public >review and comment process) and has still not even made the " adopted >standards " available for public review. > ><<<<<<Sources tell me that when the NOMAA President recently gave a >presentation to the California Acupuncture Board about this agency in >Spring 03, he initially passed out packets to the acupuncture Board >members which included NOMAA's standards and procedures, and then >changed his mind and took back these documents when >he discovered that if he provided them to the Board then any member >of the public could request and obtain a copy. > ><<<<<<Sources tell me the moon is made of cheese. > >Now that is a " substantive response " !!! If anyone wants to know the >accuracy of the NOMAA President withholding NOMAA's standards and >procedures from the CA Acupuncture Board when he learned that by >sharing them they become publicly available can simply ask the many >folks who observed this hearing. I have. > ><<<<<<<I noticed that you claim on the AOMNC web site that AOMNC >has " the largest state membership in Florida " and you further >state " ...now with CAOMA and our joint affiliation with lobbyist - >Marcus & Associates, we represent the largest group of 'qualified >acupuncture licensees' ever assembled in the United States. " How can >you make these claims with a straight face....when AOMNC is a for >profit corporation, not a non-profit where membership association >where the membership have any say as to the policies >and positions of this organization,or even who serves on its Board >of Directors? > ><<<<Well John, We can make such a claims with a straight face cause >it is true.....Welcome to America ..... but I think you are >naive.... non-profits generate lots of income ... it is just a matter >of bookkeeping. Just the same AOMNC membership is free. >Do you really think so??? It has not been my personal experience over >the years. This has nothing to do with for profit or not for >profit .... a board of directors... corporate bylaws set such things. > > >It is your statements which are naive. In true membership >organizations, the members have a say in the organization's public >policies, either directly or through having the power to determine >who represents them as members of the organization's board. AOMNC's >so-called " members " have no such power. They have no say as to >AOMNC's public policies and they have no right to determine who >serves as their represenatives on AOMNC's Board. As a for profit >corporation, all policy decisions are made and determined solely by >you and Mr. Freiberg alone and the " members " simply have no say. >Anyone who wants to review the " membership benefits " section of the >AOMNC web site must " register " and are incorrectly called members. >Registering to review an organization's " membership benefits " on a >web site does not make this organization a membership organization. >Lets compare this to AAOM's democratic structure. AAOM's Board >members are elected by the AAOM membership, and constantly seeks >feedback from its members through its web site and other venues as to >the policies that AAOM should adopt or support. AOMNC is not in any >shape or form a membership organization as that term is understood >and applied in the US. Mr. Sontag, the only way you can prove this >wrong would be to post AOMNC's Bylaws which specifically >address " membership rights " to determine AOMNC policy or appoint its >Board on your web site and you cant, because AOMNC's so- >called " members " have no rights. They cant determine AOMNC policy, >and they cant even determine who respresents them on the AOMNC Board >of Directors. > > >>>>>Anyone who wants to review certain sections of AOMNC web site, >must register to do so, and those who do are misleadingly >called " members. > ><<<<<<Please John.... you are overstating..... it is clearly stated >you become a member when you join... and you need to join for full >access to the website... just like most, if not all other >associations. > >If what you say is true, please name for me a single " reputable " >membership organization where to read the " membership benefits " >section on the organizations' web site you must " register " as a >member. You wont find any because they don't exist. One would >think that membership benefits would be described to the prospective >member to allow them to decide whether or not they want to be >members. I have to hand it to you, however, that you do pique the >curiosity of readers to your web site by doing this in that they >register for free to simply read this otherwise closed section of >your web site, not because they really support the policies which >have been determined by you and Mr. Frieberg alone, or want to become >members. > > >>>>>>Your so-called " members " have no say in the policy positions >taken by your for profit organization, which are determined and >controlled exclusively by an unelected and unaccountable Board of >Directors composed of yourself and Mr. Sontag. > ><<<<<<Well, John ... this you opinion.... Richard and I hear input >daily form interested parties, both by phone and email.... we are >easy to find and reach..... > >What you describe sounds more like a benevolent dictatorship -- as >even dictators will hear from their " interested subjects " , but it >does not make for a true membership organization for the reasons >described above. In membership organizations, members have voting >rights which are totally absent in AOMNC..... If I am wrong, please >name for me a single " reputable " professional membership organization >where members have absolutely no voting rights. > >I am not trying to tear AOMNC down. However, you keep publishing >information which is clearly misleading and I am pointing out to the >readers of the acupuncture forum the facts. > >John > > > > > > > >acupuncture , David Sontag <acudoc@b...> wrote: > > OK.... Michael and John, > > > > Let's get it out in the open what statements are misleading? > > > > Some of your statements in your e-note about NOMAA and AOMNC are >somewhat > > misleading. > > > > >>>1. NOMAA, the new accrediting agency you cited has not >accredited any OM > > doctoral programs, and it is not used in any state, or approved by >the US > > Department of Education<<< > > > > We support what NOMAA is doing and trying to do to further the >profession. > > > > >>>>>as is, for example, ACAOM. According to a recent article in > > Acupuncture Today, ACAOM is considering developing standards for > > an entry-level doctorate through a public review and comment >process.<<<<< > > > > So??? > > > > >>> 2. Far from conducting a public process, NOMAA appears to be >hiding its > > standards and procedures.  According to the NOMAA President’s >interview > > published in Acupuncture Today, NOMAA already “adopted†its >standards.<<< > >  Nobody but a select few (primarily a few of the leaders from the >CA > > associations, and none from their general membership) had been >given any > > opportunity to comment on their proposed content as they were >developed, and > > the standards themselves have still not be made public!  > > > > So?? the standards will not be a horse designed by a committee. A >public > > comment is just that a comment .. not binding. We get public >comment all > > day long ... and what a surprise.... we even factor them in....... > > > > >>>>Sources tell me that when the NOMAA President recently gave a > > presentation to the California > > Acupuncture Board about this agency in Spring 03, he initially >passed out > > packets to the acupuncture Board members which included NOMAA's >standards > > and procedures, and then changed his mind and took back these >documents when > > he discovered that if he provided them to the Board then any member >of the > > public could request and obtain a copy.<<<< > > > > Sources tell me the moon is made of cheese. > > > > >>>>>>Nor has NOMAA shares its standards with the Florida >Acupuncture > > Board when presentations were supposedly given > > to the Board about the agency.<<<<<< > > > > I have been to all recent Florida BOA Meeting NOMAA has never >presented. > > But sources tell me...... > > > > >>>>> Why should the profession accept a new > > accrediting agency which hides its standards and dosn’t allow >those who > > might be affected by them to comment on them as they are >developed???<<<<<<< > > > > Well.... you John... are you now claiming to be part of the >profession??? > > .... you do not have to accept them ... just do not attend schools >that are > > or will become accredited by them . No one is forcing you or the >profession > > to do anything.... but you will be offered a choice. BTW do have >one now > > ???... is that forcing??? > > > > >>>>>> I noticed that you claim on the AOMNC web site that AOMNC >has " the > > largest state membership in Florida " and you further state " ...now >with > > CAOMA and our joint affiliation with lobbyist - Marcus & >Associates, we > > represent the largest group of 'qualified acupuncture licensees' >ever > > assembled in the United States. " How can you make these claims >with a > > straight face > > > > Well John, We can make such a claims with a straight face cause it >is true..... > > > > > > when AOMNC is a for profit corporation, not a non-profit > > > > Welcome to America ..... but I think you are naive.... non-profits > > generate lots of income ... it is just a matter of bookkeeping. >Just the > > same AOMNC membership is free. > > > > membership association where the membership have any say as to the >policies > > and positions of this organization, > > > > Do you really think so??? It has not been my personal experience >over the > > years. > > > > or even who serves on its Board of Directors? > > > > This has nothing to do with for profit or not for profit .... a >board of > > directors... corporate bylaws set such things. > > > > .>>>>>Anyone who wants to review certain sections of AOMNC web >site, > > must register to do so, and those who do are misleadingly >called " members.<<<<< > > > > Please John.... you are overstating..... it is clearly stated you >become a > > member when you join... and you need to join for full access to >the > > website... just like most, if not all other associations. > > > > >>>>>>Your so-called " members " have no say in the policy positions >taken > > by your > > for profit organization, which are determined and controlled >exclusively by > > an unelected and unaccountable Board of Directors composed of >yourself and > > Mr. Sontag.<<<< > > > > Well, John ... this you opinion.... Richard and I hear input daily >form > > interested parties, both by phone and email.... we are easy to find >and > > reach. After all we have heard from you... now. And now that we >have heard > > from you what are you doing to help move the profession forward... >other > > then try and tear the AOMNC down???? We would all like to hear >what you > > are personally doing and who you are??? > > > > >>>>>>Your statements that AOMNC has the " largest state membership > > in Florida " and " represent the largest groups of qualified >acupuncture > > licensees ever assembled in the US " is clearly misleading and >inaccurate. > > > > I state this to correct misinformation.<<<<<< > > > > Let's leave it at this John... are you saying we are lying about >our > > membership numbers?? Tell you what.... I will send you a non- >disclosure > > agreement.... you sign and return it. Then meet Richard and me at >one of > > our offices in Florida ( I believe you are in Alabama??) and we >will show > > you our membership list. But it is going to cost you .... bring >your > > check book.... but not for us ... when you see we are the >largest ..... > > write a check to Marcus and Associates to help the lobbying effort >for the > > National Acupuncture bill..... or are you against that as well? > > > > John > > > > > > David Sontag > > Doctor of Oriental Medicine > > Co-Founder AOMNC > > > > At 08:35 AM 10/3/2003, you wrote: > > >Wow... Now THAT was an informative comeback... > > > > > >A few more like that and we'll have a quorum! > > > > > >-Michael > > > > > >acupuncture , acudoc11@a... wrote: > > > > It is your statements which incorrect and misleading - whomever >you > > >are. > > > > > > > > > I state this to correct misinformation. > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2003 Report Share Posted October 24, 2003 OK.... Michael and John, Let's get it out in the open what statements are misleading? Some of your statements in your e-note about NOMAA and AOMNC are somewhat misleading. >>>1. NOMAA, the new accrediting agency you cited has not accredited any OM doctoral programs, and it is not used in any state, or approved by the US Department of Education<<< We support what NOMAA is doing and trying to do to further the profession. >>>>>as is, for example, ACAOM. According to a recent article in Acupuncture Today, ACAOM is considering developing standards for an entry-level doctorate through a public review and comment process.<<<<< So??? >>> 2. Far from conducting a public process, NOMAA appears to be hiding its standards and procedures.  According to the NOMAA President’s interview published in Acupuncture Today, NOMAA already “adopted†its standards.<<<  Nobody but a select few (primarily a few of the leaders from the CA associations, and none from their general membership) had been given any opportunity to comment on their proposed content as they were developed, and the standards themselves have still not be made public!  So?? the standards will not be a horse designed by a committee. A public comment is just that a comment .. not binding. We get public comment all day long ... and what a surprise.... we even factor them in....... >>>>Sources tell me that when the NOMAA President recently gave a presentation to the California Acupuncture Board about this agency in Spring 03, he initially passed out packets to the acupuncture Board members which included NOMAA's standards and procedures, and then changed his mind and took back these documents when he discovered that if he provided them to the Board then any member of the public could request and obtain a copy.<<<< Sources tell me the moon is made of cheese. >>>>>>Nor has NOMAA shares its standards with the Florida Acupuncture Board when presentations were supposedly given to the Board about the agency.<<<<<< I have been to all recent Florida BOA Meeting NOMAA has never presented. But sources tell me...... >>>>> Why should the profession accept a new accrediting agency which hides its standards and dosn’t allow those who might be affected by them to comment on them as they are developed???<<<<<<< Well.... you John... are you now claiming to be part of the profession??? ..... you do not have to accept them ... just do not attend schools that are or will become accredited by them . No one is forcing you or the profession to do anything.... but you will be offered a choice. BTW do have one now ???... is that forcing??? >>>>>> I noticed that you claim on the AOMNC web site that AOMNC has " the largest state membership in Florida " and you further state " ...now with CAOMA and our joint affiliation with lobbyist - Marcus & Associates, we represent the largest group of 'qualified acupuncture licensees' ever assembled in the United States. " How can you make these claims with a straight face Well John, We can make such a claims with a straight face cause it is true..... when AOMNC is a for profit corporation, not a non-profit Welcome to America ..... but I think you are naive.... non-profits generate lots of income ... it is just a matter of bookkeeping. Just the same AOMNC membership is free. membership association where the membership have any say as to the policies and positions of this organization, Do you really think so??? It has not been my personal experience over the years. or even who serves on its Board of Directors? This has nothing to do with for profit or not for profit .... a board of directors... corporate bylaws set such things. .>>>>>Anyone who wants to review certain sections of AOMNC web site, must register to do so, and those who do are misleadingly called " members.<<<<< Please John.... you are overstating..... it is clearly stated you become a member when you join... and you need to join for full access to the website... just like most, if not all other associations. >>>>>>Your so-called " members " have no say in the policy positions taken by your for profit organization, which are determined and controlled exclusively by an unelected and unaccountable Board of Directors composed of yourself and Mr. Sontag.<<<< Well, John ... this you opinion.... Richard and I hear input daily form interested parties, both by phone and email.... we are easy to find and reach. After all we have heard from you... now. And now that we have heard from you what are you doing to help move the profession forward... other then try and tear the AOMNC down???? We would all like to hear what you are personally doing and who you are??? >>>>>>Your statements that AOMNC has the " largest state membership in Florida " and " represent the largest groups of qualified acupuncture licensees ever assembled in the US " is clearly misleading and inaccurate. I state this to correct misinformation.<<<<<< Let's leave it at this John... are you saying we are lying about our membership numbers?? Tell you what.... I will send you a non-disclosure agreement.... you sign and return it. Then meet Richard and me at one of our offices in Florida ( I believe you are in Alabama??) and we will show you our membership list. But it is going to cost you .... bring your check book.... but not for us ... when you see we are the largest ..... write a check to Marcus and Associates to help the lobbying effort for the National Acupuncture bill..... or are you against that as well? John David Sontag Doctor of Oriental Medicine Co-Founder AOMNC At 08:35 AM 10/3/2003, you wrote: >Wow... Now THAT was an informative comeback... > >A few more like that and we'll have a quorum! > >-Michael > >acupuncture , acudoc11@a... wrote: > > It is your statements which incorrect and misleading - whomever you >are. > > > > > I state this to correct misinformation. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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