Digest Number 448

[Guest guest]

http://www.paradigm-pubs.com/html/glchme-text.html

Zev worte:

"If you look in the Practical Dictionary, you will see why vacuity

makes

sense, and why it is a better term choice than deficiency (although

I have

no problem with deficiency, per se). "

 

 

Reading from the above link and the Practical Dictionary, I'm less convinced

of the Wiseman arguments. In short, they disprove their own points and

always "protest too much" about the "Western mind" when backed into a corner.

The only term I agree with is "drain". The special terms they come up with

are always explained with the common terms so what is the point?

For example:

"It is clear that as acceptance of Chinese

medicine

increases, practitioners will require greater communication

with health care providers and insurers who are dominated by

the principles and practices of biomedicine. "

Another reason for common language.

 

"When Chinese study Chinese medicine and learn

xu1 and shi2

in the technical sense, they instantly grasp their meanings.

They describe xu1 as like a bag loosely packed with cotton

balls and shi2 like a balloon bulging with water. They

do

understand these two conditions as being the result of too much

or too little of something, but when they use xu1 and shi2 they

are describing not the cause but the state. In short,

xu1 and

shi2, though they have quantitative implications, are

essentially qualitative terms."

I wish I could "instantly grasp" the meaning of vacuity and repletion.

Why not just explain deficiency as a bag etc... and "excesslike a balloon"

 

 

It is the Western intellectual habit to center on

``cause'' rather that ``condition.'' We need to quantify

things, or at least see them as being quantifiable, before we

can understand them. So when we use excess and deficiency,

we

are not translating the Chinese concepts, but converting them

into something that, being causal and potentially measurable,

makes us feel more comfortable.

The problem of translating Chinese medicine into unqualified

vernacular terms is not limited to the loss and invention of

information about specific conditions. Because it is simply

another form of translating Chinese thoughts into Western

ideas, it also results in the partial or complete obliteration

of concepts essential to Chinese medical theory. In works

produced by both Western and Chinese writers, concepts like

qiao4,[118] which we translate as portals and others translate

as orifices, are often simplified in the theoretical

discussions, then eliminated as clinical realities. When

a

concept becomes difficult to fit into the Western milieu,

that

concept is too often lost.

Understanding the conceptual basis of Chinese medicine

is

crucial in developing diagnostic skills. In the Western

mind,

there lurks a fear that a diagnosis based on qualitative

signs

that never repeat themselves exactly in any two individuals

is

unreliable. While in Western medicine the detection

of a

particular virus may be sufficient to diagnose, say, cholera,

Chinese medicine uses only qualitative signs. Hazy though

such

signs may seem, careful observation and correlation can achieve

reliable diagnoses when diagnosticians are appropriately

trained. The ambiguity of one particular sign means that

careful correlation of many signs is required for a clear

diagnosis.

 

[Guest guest]

Doug,

 

<The special

> terms they come up with are always explained with the common terms

so what is the point?

 

The point is the linkage between a set of

English terms and a set of Chinese terms.

 

Words are references to objects, phenomena and ideas.

Unless we have a common standard which links

words that refer to identical and similar

objects, phenomena and ideas, then all we

have is confusion.

 

The point of Wiseman's work is to liberate

people from the captivity of such confusion.

 

I find it ironic that here comes Nigel Wiseman

with the long neglected key to the transmission

of Chinese medicine into English language areas

and the hue and cry evoked is that the keys are

the wrong color or they don't feel good in the

hand.

 

These are separate and quite clearly secondary

considerations to whether or not they open the

door.

 

I'm reluctant to restate the arguments concerning

" xu1 " and " shi2 " simply because they've been

discussed at such length. But if you would like

to discuss them one more time, I'm actually

happy to do it. I'll wait, however, until

I hear from you or someone else that they

really do want to engage in such a discussion

before pushing forward.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Zev

[Will, I cannot understand why no one in our profession has any trouble with

counterintuitive biomedical language.]

Are you suggesting because someone else functions well with counterinutitive

terms (I disagree that it is so by the way)....that we should also adopt a

complex non-ordinary linguistic structure?

 

[it is also quite standardized. For example, thrombocytopenia. Why not just

say,

'having fewer than the number of platelets per unit of volume of blood'?]

I say thrombocyptopenia because it works, this example sentance is a pain to

deal with -- remember my criteria is 'eloquence'.

 

[if you look in the Practical Dictionary, you will see why vacuity makes

sense, and why it is a better term choice than deficiency] There appears to be

an assumption that I haven't carefully considered the issue, I do have the book

and use it for teaching Practical Application of the Classics. I think repletion

finds it's opposite more efficiently in the

term depletion. The term vacuity implies a vacuum or a hollow -- this is not the

case for most of the clinical entities labled with 'vacuity'.

 

[As far as xu goes, Pinyin in and of itself is a bridge between Chinese and

English, but doesn't express inate meaning without access to the original

character.] To this end I would have to ask is there anyone on this list who did

not understand the use of the lable Liver Qi Xu? I

would suggest that communication is what works to convey a concept from one

person to other/s.

 

[it gets quite clumsy if you have sentences that are replete with technical

terms. For

further extrapolation on the Pinyin issue, go to paradigm-pubs.com, go to

the reference section, pull down the Nigel Wiseman menu, and download " A

Reply to Buck and Maciocia " .]

I have pulled it down, and consider both points of view as valuable. The

question for me is whether loan-translation or direct loans of words render a

more eloquent solution to the problem. I am happy going with depletion to

sustain coinsistency with the loan-translation method.

However, casual discourse with colleagues is not the arena, scholarly

publications are more appropriate for the application of such discipline.

 

Will

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

Rory [My question is, how much and

what sort of evidence do we need to say liver qi xu?]

Good question Rory...as posted previously, diminished capacity for the liver to

perform any of it's functions.

 

[Can we base it just on the left middle pulse position plus a suggestive

history?]

If it generates clinical results, my experience is that it does.

 

[i have to admit I'm a little dissatisfied with the anecdotal

association of a empty/xu left guan with a history of pot smoking;]

Hey there.....I'm relating clinial experience, I would say observing this

phenomena over a period of 9 years it is in the 80 percentile for accuracy.

 

[the causal inference here seems to be shaky. I'm also unsatisfied by

the association of an empty/xu quality in this position necessarily

with qi xu;]

 

If it is pot, Liver Qi Xu seems to be present, all the other patterns may be

concommitants in any combination, however, Liver Qi Xu is an abiding finding and

fits well with the liver dumping glycogen and causing munchies. I do agreee with

the caution against carte blanche

consideration of an empty pulse as Qi Xu when other substances may be depleted

as well.

 

Will

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

[As for not waiting for symptoms to appear before making the dx, you are still

basing

selection upon a sign - some sort of pulse characteristic in this case.]

 

True.. Is this bad, especially if there is a change in the case?

We could say the pulse precedes pathology, if this is so, we must wait to treat?

The admonition of the superior physicain is not possible when practicing solely

on the basis of the sign-symptom complex. Signs are the leaders and enable one

to predict the onset of disease and the nature of death.

 

[Perhaps it is my pulsetaking skills, but I have found pulse to be

highly unreliable and teach my students to rely primarily on

questioning and observation. The pulse changes when a car honks

outside, it changes between questioning and return to the tx room and

different clinicans rarely agree on the pulse qualities of agiven

patient.]

 

In my experience pulse diagnosis is a reliable - at times fickle - and

profound method of analysis that reveals issues patients are frequently

unwilling or

anable to disclose through questioning. The vagaries of the pulse are as

important

as the findings that remain consistent and it is importatnt to sort these issues

and record them.

 

[Liver depression may present with subtle sx like rib side

distension, emotional lability, sighing, constant stretching, etc., so

clearcut physical pathology is not required, but good questioning and

observation can still elicit enough sx to make this dx. But I'd like

to see a citation (modern or classical) for initiating such a treatment

just because the deep left guan position of the pulse is xu. While all

TCM was originally MSU, there is time tested MSU and brand new MSU.

Unless one is not getting satisfactory results with the general

consensus MSU, I see no reason to stray.]

 

If I find an empty left guan position and prescribe large doses of Huang Qi to

boost Liver Qi, and the individual finds more energy to perform liver tasks such

as long term planning....great. I don't need the physical terrain to compel me

into a treatment strategy. The pulse and

mentals are sufficient. I have no citation, as I speak from clinical experience

using this strategy for the over 9 years. I would be tied from implementing that

which works simply because there is no reference for it were I to follow the

rationale you are presenting.

 

Will

 

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[Guest guest]

At 5:01 PM -0800 1/8/01, Will wrote:

>Rory [My question is, how much and

>what sort of evidence do we need to say liver qi xu?]

>Good question Rory...as posted previously, diminished capacity for

>the liver to perform any of it's functions.

--

 

Looks like we might be going round in circles on this one, but I'll

try one more time. If you have disordered function of the liver, then

you have symptoms. If you have symptoms you have a pattern. All the

combinations of symptoms associated with the liver seem to be

accounted for in patterns other than liver qi xu (eg liver reversal

or depression, wood not restraining earth). In these circumstances,

liver qi xu would appear to be a physiological condition without

symptoms, because as soon as a symptom is evident, then the pattern

is called something else. Are we not then left with liver qi xu being

defined only by the presence of a pulse quality found in the left

middle position?

 

Can you be more specific in saying how you recognize diminished

capacity for the liver to perform any of its functions?

 

>

>[Can we base it just on the left middle pulse position plus a

>suggestive history?]

>If it generates clinical results, my experience is that it does.

--

If there are no symptoms, how are you estimating clinical results?

 

>

>[i have to admit I'm a little dissatisfied with the anecdotal

>association of a empty/xu left guan with a history of pot smoking;]

>Hey there.....I'm relating clinial experience, I would say observing

>this phenomena over a period of 9 years it is in the 80 percentile

>for accuracy.

--

I'm not questioning your observation. I've observed the same thing.

I'm just not convinced that I'm right to necessarily believe that the

association is causal.

If 10% of our patients have an empty left middle, and 50% have smoked pot...

 

Rory

[Guest guest]

Jean,

 

and Especially others on this list.

 

Hi!

 

First I have never heard anything that bad about " Trader Joes " !

 

I remember this well------- as I have never been to Trader Joes------Because

I " now " live in the mountains. but have heard about Trader Joes for

years---mostly good----but nothing like you accuse them of.

 

 

 

It is over 100 miles in any direction from where I live between Wal-Mart

stores--but we have one 15 miles from my house..----- If you can't find

one I wonder just how far apart they are in New Jersey, Where you live?

 

The wild Coho Salmon I bought at Wal-Mart last week was as delicious as any

Salmon I ever caught and flash froze myself. ----------I lived on the

Pacific Ocean for many years-------------- please let me be your authority

on West Coast Salmon.

 

My experience is that any Salmon reasonably well cared for is great. The

Salmon you " tried to eat " is cause for a serious confrontation with the

selling store.

 

If it was as bad as you say------------maybe you should have reported it

to the Health department.

 

 

 

he On the other hand you may not realize that wild Salmon is very delicious

until a cook ruins it.

 

How was the fish you ate cooked?

 

Are you sure it was Salmon.

 

Are you sure it was not spoiled before it was cooked?

 

Lorenzo

 

 

>>>>>>>>>

 

 

 

Hi Lorenzo,

I am not able to obtain the Wal-mart fish but I did buy frozen 'Wild

Salmon' at Trader Joes. The taste was awful. I would never buy it again.

How does your Wal-Mart salmon taste?

During the summer months, fresh Alaskan silverbrite salmon is sold at

the

local supermarkets. Unfortunately, the taste is not great either. It is

better than Trader Joes brand but not as good as the farmed salmon. which we

know is not healthy.

I am going to go to Wild Oats health food supermarket in Princeton, NJ

today. That store is now selling fresh wild Alaskan 'Red Sockeye' salmon.

I

am going to try it. It is much more expensive than the frozen or

silverbrite

but I am going to try it.

 

Jean

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

-

" Lorenzo " <lorenzo1

 

Tuesday, July 16, 2002 10:22 PM

Re: Digest Number 448

 

 

>

> he On the other hand you may not realize that wild Salmon is very

delicious

> until a cook ruins it.

 

 

Hi Lorenzo,

I know salmon is supposed to be good for me, but the few

times I have tried it, I could not finish it. As it is expensive, I

am not real inclined to keep trying to see if it would taste better

if I cooked it differently, or if I got a different fish, etc. I

love swordfish & I do know how to cook swordfish, tuna, etc., so I

suspect I just do not like salmon. I bought it at Wholefoods --

which does not stock any farm-raised salmon. I have also dis-liked

salmon sushi. I love most other sushi.

 

Are any other fish as good for one as salmon? Normally I eat

tuna (raw), swordfish (grilled) and shrimp (boiled). I am not a big

seafood eater, but I try to have it twice a month.

 

Alobar

[Guest guest]

Thanks Jennifer

 

Mrs Rothwell

 

 

> Mrs Rothwell

> It is wonderful that you have sought another option for your health.

> Regaining health does take a matter of time. without knowing all your

> symtoms, age, lifestyle etc it it difficult to determine any estimation of

> time needed. This is something you need to discuss with your practitioner.

>

> The good news it that you did responded to your first treatment. I would

> strongly encourage you to continue seeing your practitioner and also

> inquire

> as to the things you can do yourself such as herbs, diet and excersise.

> Much luck!

> Jennifer

>