Guest guest Posted December 23, 2002 Report Share Posted December 23, 2002 Dear All, I wish you all Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and I hope it is not against any internal law to ask questions even now at this time of year. I am studying TCM in Germany and wonder which sense it makes in the world of acupuncture practice to earn one of the available titles like Bachelor of Acupuncture or Master of acupuncture. In Germany acupuncture can only be practiced if one is a medical doctor or has earned a health practitioner license (which one can get without a training in anything). We don't have Licensed Acupuncturists. Even after years of training and practice you need to get this health practitioner license but this is not an exam about acupuncture or . We actually don't have the titles Bachelor and Master regarding acupuncture or Chinese medicine. How is it in America for example. Does a physician also need to earn a license of acupuncture or is he allowed to practice even without training. How is it in other places of the world? And the available titles: Bachelor or Master of Acupcunture or Oriental Medicine: Are they necessary prerequisites for getting an License of Acupuncture or what are they actually good for. I just wonder if I need to get such a title to be allowed to practice anywhere else in the world than Germany Thanks in advance and Happy Holidays Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2002 Report Share Posted December 25, 2002 Hi Harry, I recently graduated from Emperor's College in California. Generally speaking, the Master's degree is the entry point for becoming a licensed acupuncturist. In the state of California, a Masters degree allows you to take the Califonia licensing exam which makes you an L.Ac. Other states have different laws governing the practice of oriental medicine. Most recognize a National Certification exam (but not California). But even with this national certification the various states vary with regards to the autonomy that a practitioner has. For example, I currently live in Ohio where an acupuncturist must practice under a medical doctor, even with the national certificate. This is true of other states in the midwest which seem to be a little slower in adopting change than other regions. I konw that other states, however, offer practitioners a great deal of independence with the same national certificate. To summarize, California has their own exam and with it you can pracitice independently. Most other states recognize the national certificate but the degree to which that certificate grants you autonomy is decided by the individual state. Hope this helps, Bernard Kim, lonely acupuncturist in Ohio....haha > ______________________ > > Message: 1 > Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:15:46 -0000 > " mrdudo <withoutbeat " > <withoutbeat > titles in the world of acupuncture > > Dear All, > > I wish you all Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year > and I hope it is > not against any internal law to ask questions even > now at this time > of year. > > I am studying TCM in Germany and wonder which sense > it makes in the > world of acupuncture practice to earn one of the > available titles > like Bachelor of Acupuncture or Master of > acupuncture. > > In Germany acupuncture can only be practiced if one > is a medical > doctor or has earned a health practitioner license > (which one can get > without a training in anything). We don't have > Licensed > Acupuncturists. Even after years of training and > practice you need to > get this health practitioner license but this is not > an exam about > acupuncture or . We actually don't > have the titles > Bachelor and Master regarding acupuncture or Chinese > medicine. > > How is it in America for example. Does a physician > also need to earn > a license of acupuncture or is he allowed to > practice even without > training. How is it in other places of the world? > > And the available titles: Bachelor or Master of > Acupcunture or > Oriental Medicine: Are they necessary prerequisites > for getting an > License of Acupuncture or what are they actually > good for. > > I just wonder if I need to get such a title to be > allowed to practice > anywhere else in the world than Germany > > Thanks in advance and Happy Holidays > > Harry > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2002 Report Share Posted December 30, 2002 Greetings Harry At least for me being right in the middle of these political/professional issues here in Florida and elsewhere in the US.....I can respond with a degree of accuracy. Firstly - is your study in germany limited to ONLY the use of acupuncture needles or is it just called that but REALLY encompasses Oriental Medicine including Chinese Materia Medica? Unfortunately the codon called 'TCM' is such a confusing 'pointer'.....we should at least clarify that what is generally taught around the world called 'TCM' is mostly a linearized-westernized version of chinese medicine. Chairman Mao demolished classical chinese medicine and then when it was realized that China could not afford drugs for 1 billion people he quickly brought it back into main stream. Since he destroyed the old apprentice system and the old masters could not accomodate the volume anyway.....and they needed to quickly teach it in a class room - it became TCM. Different from classical teachings but no one doubts that it works. I would say that much of the art was lost but much of the science is there. MDs in the US know very little about Chinese medicine and they know very little about the use of acupuncture needles. They think they do. They bless themselves with self-accreditation/certification that even the AMA nor the ABMS recognizes but still they do it. They have attempted to usurp the modality of acupuncture by calling it Medical Acupuncture and have fostered a limited theory (at best) that it is ALL neurological which is farthest from the truth. There are now 39 states in the US that license acupuncture and the majority for non-MDs entail a minimum of 2200 hours and as much as 3200 hours. These are THE well-trained practitioners in the US - having a much superior training than anything available for MDs. In most of those states the non-MDs are titled LAc's or Licensed Acupuncturists. In some states they are called Doctors of Oriental Medicine, Doctors of Acupunture or Acupuncture Physicians (as in Florida). The scopes of practice vary from performing only needle puncture to being 'primary health care providers' ordering lab/imaging tests and being able to inject certain substances or even in several states being able to perform IV therapy. MDs on the other hand also vary from state to state. Some states it is still illegal for any MD to use an acupuncture needle, in some it's OK using needles with no education, and in some asthey need as much as 400 hours of education. There is a HUGE battle ensuing in the US with these MD-allopaths attempting to usurp these practices and put-out-of-business the well trained LAc's. Yet there are only 3,000 MDs out of around 700,000 that even wish to play with the needles. I say play because the majority of those have less than 200 hours of education. If we follow the World Health Organization's study done in 1998 and follow China's lead the world would be a better place regarding acupuncture and oriental medicine and there would be a whole lot less animosity. W.H.O. clearly researched and states that if an MD wishes to very adjunctively/peripherally and occasionally use an acupuncture needle then they should take a minimum of 200 hours and successfully pass a nationally accepted test but if they wish to practice to the level of an LAc then they NEED at least 1,500 hours of education and clinical exposure and should successfully pass a nationally accpeted test. The United States nationally accepted level for acupuncture education is 1,750 hours which does not include herbal education (another 450 hours). This is from the NCCAOM which is the national US testing agency recognized by the US government. BUT when it comes to MDs....they don't wish to follow what anyone else thinks. They JUST DO what they want. So there you have it. Titles mostly mean nothing. If you are an MD and come to the states - you would have to see what that state requires under the MD scope of practice...but I tell you if you wish a license as an LAc or similar......you would then need to look up that state's non-MD acupuncture license laws. They often will not accept just any foreign education. You need to do some research to see in what state your coursework might be accepted and/or to what required level of individual hours and in what oriental subjects. Unfortunately there is no uniformity throughout the US. Just recently there is a MOVE in the US to make the entry level for Acupuncture & oriental medicine a Doctor Degree encompassing 4,000 hours. We believe that this will be the future here. regards, Richard A. Freiberg, DOM, DAc, NMD VP & Legislative Chair Florida NGAOM Guild #62 In a message dated 12/24/02 5:23:42 PM, withoutbeat writes: << Dear All, I wish you all Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year and I hope it is not against any internal law to ask questions even now at this time of year. I am studying TCM in Germany and wonder which sense it makes in the world of acupuncture practice to earn one of the available titles like Bachelor of Acupuncture or Master of acupuncture. In Germany acupuncture can only be practiced if one is a medical doctor or has earned a health practitioner license (which one can get without a training in anything). We don't have Licensed Acupuncturists. Even after years of training and practice you need to get this health practitioner license but this is not an exam about acupuncture or . We actually don't have the titles Bachelor and Master regarding acupuncture or Chinese medicine. How is it in America for example. Does a physician also need to earn a license of acupuncture or is he allowed to practice even without training. How is it in other places of the world? And the available titles: Bachelor or Master of Acupcunture or Oriental Medicine: Are they necessary prerequisites for getting an License of Acupuncture or what are they actually good for. I just wonder if I need to get such a title to be allowed to practice anywhere else in the world than Germany Thanks in advance and Happy Holidays Harry >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 2, 2003 Report Share Posted January 2, 2003 In a message dated 1/2/03 5:06:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, bernard_m_kim writes: > Also, I agree that the AMA's history in the early part > of the 20th century to squeeze out other medical > systems is an historical fact but is still largely > unknown to most people (except maybe the chiropractors > themselves). Richard writes: And the DCs are still having one hell of a time. They made a mistake by letting the AMA off the hook in their settlement and began paying for that the very NEXT day. > You bring up the coding issue. That to me is a > significant one. I agree with your main point but > would only add that I believe part of the issue here > is that before acupuncture and other " alternative " > therapies can be coded there needs to be more > efficacy/outcomes research done. This is an economic > issue. The insurance companies won't reimburse on a > modality that is not shown to be of at least some > efficacy. Once the data show that the treatment works, > they will be coded. This is just speculation on my > part, but I believe that it would be in the intersts > of the insurance companies to code for effective > alternative therapies because for the most part they > are cheaper than allopathic procedures. For example, > acupuncture and Tui-na tx's for carpal tunnel syndrome > instead of the horrific surgery that M.D.s perform. This is a chicken-egg syndrome. If you can't code you can't do the studies. The issue of approving the coding system is much more basic than even that. Initially after approval of these codes there wouldn't be much reimbursement but there will be much information gathering ability.....so you SEE that their blocking maneuvers are pre-determined so as to never allow us to gather the hard data which WE already know will prove - and they do also. > I know that one possible objection to what I've just > written is that the research has been done in China > and that TCM has a 5000 year hx and all that, and I > totally agree. But, the studies can and are being done > here in the U.S. and many (but not all) of the results > are favorable. I think this is an area where L.Ac.'s > and others can get involved. We can help with study > design since the western scientists know how to > perform a study, but may not be familiar with the > specifics of acupuncture therapy (BTW, this is an area > that I am interested in, and yet another personal > reason why I decided to go to medical school). There are tens of thousands of research studies already existing all over the world. If you haven't looked - go to the AAMA's website in the Public Area and see all of the Medical Acupuncturist's studies done by some of the MDs. For those who say there aren't any or enough studies ...... it is a matter of selective 'looking'. They KNOW exactly what's out there - they just don't want to look. Delay - delay - delay is their order of every day. > However, I would still > assert that internally, L.Ac's have a > personal/professional obligation to be the best that > they can be and bring change and unity to the > profession from within. As our training becomes more > and more refined, the consumer-public will take note > and they will be the driving force to bring L.Ac's out > of the margins and into the mainstream. > Consumer-pressure, I believe, will overcome the > slipping grip of the few, aging, old-boys-club M.D.'s > that are making it difficult for everyone else. > That's assuming this all happens before they get to pull the plug. It's a race for them. For us it is an enormous job to 'wake-up' the apathetic rank and file. You DO know that it is easier to sit by and watch the FEW do all of the work. It's the old truth that 10% of the people do 90% of the work. And 100% will certainly reap and enjoy all of the benefits. I only hope it is not too late when LAcs realize what is happening. Take alook at this months Acupuncture Today rag newspaper. A propaganda article from one of the leaders of CCAOM. This is the biggest crock I have seen in a long time. The 'steering-visioning' group of dictatorship-like organizations (actually an acupuncture mini monopoly) who have been controlling the profession from day one are now moaning and groaning because some of us progressive practitioners are not willing to allow them to play control-freak over us. So they point the finger in this freedom of speech society claiming that others are not playing nicely but it is they who have not been playing nicely for OVER 30 years. In this society anyoneis free to lobby for what ever any individual or group wishes. That's the freedoms we are supposed to enjoy yet they don't want us to have them because we happen not to agree with their ideas (mini monopoly) for the profession. If you haven't already felt it beginning - you shall SEE the stage and game plans changing very soon. One clue is that all of a sudden ACAOM has just recently put out a questionnaire for input on the real-deal Doctor of OM degree all the while they were proclaiming that the MASTERS DEGREE had to be the entry level in this field. What medical degree is done by 'masters'? (None). They still insist on calling it a doctoral. And they are trying like hell to stretch it out over an additional ten years. But there is some information that they are TOO LATE. The new Doctor of OM degree is already been set-up and approved by the educational powers that be in the US. Where will that leave them and their schools if it's true? For one thing - they will have to come up with something a lot sooner than ten years otherwise they will LOSE all of their accredited schools which will move over to the new degree program a lot sooner than 10 years. Benjamin - I tried years ago to make sense out of these issues and finally realized this is ALL a GAME to those who manipulate and control. So when we learn to see it that way - it is all logical and we stop wasting time and move right to the core of each issue and get it resolved. I dam not a pessimist - just a realist. There was a friend who once told me that when a trout appears in your morning cereal more than once - it is by no accident. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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