titles in the world of acupuncture (thanks for the info)

[Guest guest]

Hi Richard, Julia, everyone in the group,

 

This topic is taking an interesting turn. I responded

a few days ago to Harry's original post (i'm the

" lonely acupuncturist in Ohio " ) and I just wanted to

offer a respectful counterpoint to the points made by

Richard. As a first year (allopathic) medical student

at the University of Cincinnati as well as a newly

licensed acupuncturist, I believe I have an unusual

perspective that I wish to share...

 

In my personal experience I agree with what Julia has

posted, insofar as I believe that the " medical "

acupuncturists (and I do dislike that term as it

marginalizes L.Ac.'s) understand their own

shortcomings. I have had occassion to meet an M.D. who

went through the UCLA medical acupuncture program and

took it upon himself to continue his acupuncture

training to encompass more of the traditional TCM

theories (he went back and read the standard U.S.

texts, Maccioca, etc.) In fact, this particular M.D.

that I met entirely gave up his allopathic practice

and now works at an integrated medicine clinic with

several other M.D. acupuncturists, chiropractors,

massage therapists, and practitioners of other

modalilties. He was very earnest in desiring to be the

best acupuncturist he could be, and that, I think, is

an attitude that many licensed acupuncturists could

learn to adopt themselves.

 

My point here is that when I look at the situation

from the perspective of the allopathic community I see

a lot less competitiveness and ill-will on the part of

the M.D.'s and a lot more genuine interest in what TCM

is all about. Many (but not all) of the faculty here

at Univ. of Cinci. are very curious and open to

finding out what is the deal with acupuncture, and

this is Ohio. Yes, some of the M.D. acupuncturists are

just " playing " around with needles, but for the most

part their impact should be rather inconsequential

when you take into account the fact that it is only a

very, very, very small percentage of M.D's who

actually care enough to go out and learn acupuncture,

even if it is for only 200 hours or whatever.

 

Furthermore, from a consumer point of view, if the

treatment doesn't give good results, they'll just go

somehwere else anyways. If the M.D. acupuncturist

helps his patient, then that's great. Some good has

been done. If the M.D. acupuncturist is just playing

with silly point combinations without the backing of a

good understanding of the pricnciples of TCM diagnosis

and point selection, then the treatment won't do any

good and the patient will go elsewhere.

 

Anyway, I don't want to ramble on for too long (I

could go on and on). I guess I'd just like to close by

saying that if we as L.Ac's organize ourselves and get

on the same page in terms of desiring and acquiring

top-notch training and education, then we have nothing

to fear from M.D. acupuncturists. We are all trying to

do the same thing, bring healing to our patients. If

an M.D. is genuinely interested in learning

acupuncture, more power to him, that's great. In my

book, that makes him an M.D. who is seeking to

transcend the limitations of his allopathic training.

And, to be sure, we as acupuncturists should seek to

do the same by recognizing and trying to overcome

limitations in our own knowledge and training (which,

by the way, is at least part of the reason why I

decided to go to medical school). I think the

*perceived* antagonism from the M.D.'s is exactly

that, merely a perception. In reality, there are many

M.D.'s who really do want to learn about acupuncture

and see what it can and can't do.

 

My two cents,

Bernard Kim

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Bernard

 

Your views and experiences are valid and I am glad to see your statement.

 

A slight update for clarification.

 

I believe it was clearly said (and I didn't take your statement as an attack)

regardin some MD Medical Acupuncturists. YES, certainly there are MDs who

care more for their patients than the mighty buck and the way the system

forces them to 'move' patients through the revolving doors in order to cover

their overheads among other reasons. With that in mind there are very few of

the approximate 3,500 MDs who have gone through the UCLA week-end and home

video coursework who have gone further than the 200 hours of almost nonsense.

And YES, the 200 hours has changed since Joseph Helms originated this academy

training.

 

With all due respect (seriously) to the prolific writers of the last 20 years

(and they have done us ALL a great service)......when the depths of

Acupuncture/OM are more more fully revealed - barely anyone will read these

early writings. As I may have stated - there are over 2,000 classical books

never translated into modern chinese of which 500 are very important.

 

You are again CORRECT when you state that the majority of the MDs involved in

acupuncture are not overly competitive or ill-willed. Even the MDs who have

no interest generally are not ill-willed.

 

It is a SERIOUS PROBLEM caused by a few hundred or so MDs who are in control

of the various allopathic organizations, insurance carriers and state/federal

governmental agencies. The are the ones who probably never had or were

incapable of a decent practice.

 

I wish it weren't so but the ONE thing for sure that exists and which many

seem not to be apprised of is the intent and behaviour of those who you do

not KNOW or SEE within varying legislative and Public Relations drives across

the US. THEY are out to destroy LAc's or in the least insure that they will

be subservient to the allopathic world. Just LOOK and remember how the AMA

got their hands seriosuly slapped by the US Supreme Court for restraint of

trade against Chiropractors. Do you think they ever stopped? Do you think

that from the 1970's they weren't doing the same thing to the acupuncture

world?

 

These are so-to-speak ALL separate realities. One thing has little to do with

the other. There are the majoirty of the 3,500+ Medical Acupuncturists that

couldn't ever compare to the average LAc.

There are the few (maybe 100 or so) MD medical acupuncturists who should be

applauded for their personal efforts.

And THEN there are those MDs who are control freaks who want LAc's down and

out and/or under their control.

And if any don't think this is reality then you are not exposed or paying

attention.

 

In this day and age (1/1/03)....can you imagine that the Federal government

supposedly does not KNOW what acupuncture is? They apparently are holding up

the acceptance and standardization for HIPAA of the C.A.M. coding system

because of this supposed lack of understanding of terminology ----- yet the

majority of those codes are designed for and desired by and already approved

by over 2.3 million allopathic Nurses and other health care providers. Tell

me - what kind of game is being played? Just maybe - part of this reality is

that when this CAM coding system is approved, 80% of the coding revenues will

go bye-bye because the majority of health care pracitioners in the US are not

MD/DO physicians. You must keep in mind this REALITY. -> If there is no code

for a procedure...you can't bill for it, you can't collect for it and more

importantly you cannot prove the procedure's benefits either in financial

savings or efficacy.

 

Let me know, anytime, the University of Cinncinati (as example) is seriosuly

interested in setting up some REAL provable and repeatedable results oriented

research either in the domain of Oriental bodywork(not limited to acupuncture

needles) or in Chinese Materia Medica.....and I would be more than happy to

show/tell and be involved.

 

I know you weren't denegrating Ohio.....sometimes the less poisoned but small

places (in a sense) are better soil for real work.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a message dated 1/1/03 1:53:40 PM, bernard_m_kim writes:

<< Hi Richard, Julia, everyone in the group,

 

This topic is taking an interesting turn. I responded

a few days ago to Harry's original post (i'm the

" lonely acupuncturist in Ohio " ) and I just wanted to

offer a respectful counterpoint to the points made by

Richard. As a first year (allopathic) medical student

at the University of Cincinnati as well as a newly

licensed acupuncturist, I believe I have an unusual

perspective that I wish to share...

 

In my personal experience I agree with what Julia has

posted, insofar as I believe that the " medical "

acupuncturists (and I do dislike that term as it

marginalizes L.Ac.'s) understand their own

shortcomings. I have had occassion to meet an M.D. who

went through the UCLA medical acupuncture program and

took it upon himself to continue his acupuncture

training to encompass more of the traditional TCM

theories (he went back and read the standard U.S.

texts, Maccioca, etc.) In fact, this particular M.D.

that I met entirely gave up his allopathic practice

and now works at an integrated medicine clinic with

several other M.D. acupuncturists, chiropractors,

massage therapists, and practitioners of other

modalilties. He was very earnest in desiring to be the

best acupuncturist he could be, and that, I think, is

an attitude that many licensed acupuncturists could

learn to adopt themselves.

 

My point here is that when I look at the situation

from the perspective of the allopathic community I see

a lot less competitiveness and ill-will on the part of

the M.D.'s and a lot more genuine interest in what TCM

is all about. Many (but not all) of the faculty here

at Univ. of Cinci. are very curious and open to

finding out what is the deal with acupuncture, and

this is Ohio. Yes, some of the M.D. acupuncturists are

just " playing " around with needles, but for the most

part their impact should be rather inconsequential

when you take into account the fact that it is only a

very, very, very small percentage of M.D's who

actually care enough to go out and learn acupuncture,

even if it is for only 200 hours or whatever.

 

Furthermore, from a consumer point of view, if the

treatment doesn't give good results, they'll just go

somehwere else anyways. If the M.D. acupuncturist

helps his patient, then that's great. Some good has

been done. If the M.D. acupuncturist is just playing

with silly point combinations without the backing of a

good understanding of the pricnciples of TCM diagnosis

and point selection, then the treatment won't do any

good and the patient will go elsewhere.

 

Anyway, I don't want to ramble on for too long (I

could go on and on). I guess I'd just like to close by

saying that if we as L.Ac's organize ourselves and get

on the same page in terms of desiring and acquiring

top-notch training and education, then we have nothing

to fear from M.D. acupuncturists. We are all trying to

do the same thing, bring healing to our patients. If

an M.D. is genuinely interested in learning

acupuncture, more power to him, that's great. In my

book, that makes him an M.D. who is seeking to

transcend the limitations of his allopathic training.

And, to be sure, we as acupuncturists should seek to

do the same by recognizing and trying to overcome

limitations in our own knowledge and training (which,

by the way, is at least part of the reason why I

decided to go to medical school). I think the

*perceived* antagonism from the M.D.'s is exactly

that, merely a perception. In reality, there are many

M.D.'s who really do want to learn about acupuncture

and see what it can and can't do.

 

My two cents,

Bernard Kim >>

[Guest guest]

Hi Richard,

 

Your points were well taken and I tend to agree with

most of what you've said. I agree that there is a lot

of work to be done in translating the huge corpus of

Chinese (and Korean and Japanese) texts not yet

available in the English language.

 

Also, I agree that the AMA's history in the early part

of the 20th century to squeeze out other medical

systems is an historical fact but is still largely

unknown to most people (except maybe the chiropractors

themselves).

 

You bring up the coding issue. That to me is a

significant one. I agree with your main point but

would only add that I believe part of the issue here

is that before acupuncture and other " alternative "

therapies can be coded there needs to be more

efficacy/outcomes research done. This is an economic

issue. The insurance companies won't reimburse on a

modality that is not shown to be of at least some

efficacy. Once the data show that the treatment works,

they will be coded. This is just speculation on my

part, but I believe that it would be in the intersts

of the insurance companies to code for effective

alternative therapies because for the most part they

are cheaper than allopathic procedures. For example,

acupuncture and Tui-na tx's for carpal tunnel syndrome

instead of the horrific surgery that M.D.s perform.

 

I know that one possible objection to what I've just

written is that the research has been done in China

and that TCM has a 5000 year hx and all that, and I

totally agree. But, the studies can and are being done

here in the U.S. and many (but not all) of the results

are favorable. I think this is an area where L.Ac.'s

and others can get involved. We can help with study

design since the western scientists know how to

perform a study, but may not be familiar with the

specifics of acupuncture therapy (BTW, this is an area

that I am interested in, and yet another personal

reason why I decided to go to medical school).

 

Anyway, yes, when it boils down to it I suppose I see

your point that there are a few M.D.'s out there who

wield a lot of power in terms of policy, legislation,

and change. And they are exerting their negative

influence against the L.Ac's. However, I would still

assert that internally, L.Ac's have a

personal/professional obligation to be the best that

they can be and bring change and unity to the

profession from within. As our training becomes more

and more refined, the consumer-public will take note

and they will be the driving force to bring L.Ac's out

of the margins and into the mainstream.

Consumer-pressure, I believe, will overcome the

slipping grip of the few, aging, old-boys-club M.D.'s

that are making it difficult for everyone else.

 

Bernie

 

 

--- ACUDOC11 wrote:

>

> Hi Bernard

>

> Your views and experiences are valid and I am glad

> to see your statement.

>

> A slight update for clarification.

>

> I believe it was clearly said (and I didn't take

> your statement as an attack)

> regardin some MD Medical Acupuncturists. YES,

> certainly there are MDs who

> care more for their patients than the mighty buck

> and the way the system

> forces them to 'move' patients through the revolving

> doors in order to cover

> their overheads among other reasons. With that in

> mind there are very few of

> the approximate 3,500 MDs who have gone through the

> UCLA week-end and home

> video coursework who have gone further than the 200

> hours of almost nonsense.

> And YES, the 200 hours has changed since Joseph

> Helms originated this academy

> training.

>

> With all due respect (seriously) to the prolific

> writers of the last 20 years

> (and they have done us ALL a great

> service)......when the depths of

> Acupuncture/OM are more more fully revealed - barely

> anyone will read these

> early writings. As I may have stated - there are

> over 2,000 classical books

> never translated into modern chinese of which 500

> are very important.

>

> You are again CORRECT when you state that the

> majority of the MDs involved in

> acupuncture are not overly competitive or

> ill-willed. Even the MDs who have

> no interest generally are not ill-willed.

>

> It is a SERIOUS PROBLEM caused by a few hundred or

> so MDs who are in control

> of the various allopathic organizations, insurance

> carriers and state/federal

> governmental agencies. The are the ones who probably

> never had or were

> incapable of a decent practice.

>

> I wish it weren't so but the ONE thing for sure that

> exists and which many

> seem not to be apprised of is the intent and

> behaviour of those who you do

> not KNOW or SEE within varying legislative and

> Public Relations drives across

> the US. THEY are out to destroy LAc's or in the

> least insure that they will

> be subservient to the allopathic world. Just LOOK

> and remember how the AMA

> got their hands seriosuly slapped by the US Supreme

> Court for restraint of

> trade against Chiropractors. Do you think they ever

> stopped? Do you think

> that from the 1970's they weren't doing the same

> thing to the acupuncture

> world?

>

> These are so-to-speak ALL separate realities. One

> thing has little to do with

> the other. There are the majoirty of the 3,500+

> Medical Acupuncturists that

> couldn't ever compare to the average LAc.

> There are the few (maybe 100 or so) MD medical

> acupuncturists who should be

> applauded for their personal efforts.

> And THEN there are those MDs who are control freaks

> who want LAc's down and

> out and/or under their control.

> And if any don't think this is reality then you are

> not exposed or paying

> attention.

>

> In this day and age (1/1/03)....can you imagine that

> the Federal government

> supposedly does not KNOW what acupuncture is? They

> apparently are holding up

> the acceptance and standardization for HIPAA of the

> C.A.M. coding system

> because of this supposed lack of understanding of

> terminology ----- yet the

> majority of those codes are designed for and desired

> by and already approved

> by over 2.3 million allopathic Nurses and other

> health care providers. Tell

> me - what kind of game is being played? Just maybe -

> part of this reality is

> that when this CAM coding system is approved, 80% of

> the coding revenues will

> go bye-bye because the majority of health care

> pracitioners in the US are not

> MD/DO physicians. You must keep in mind this

> REALITY. -> If there is no code

> for a procedure...you can't bill for it, you can't

> collect for it and more

> importantly you cannot prove the procedure's

> benefits either in financial

> savings or efficacy.

>

> Let me know, anytime, the University of Cinncinati

> (as example) is seriosuly

> interested in setting up some REAL provable and

> repeatedable results oriented

> research either in the domain of Oriental

> bodywork(not limited to acupuncture

> needles) or in Chinese Materia Medica.....and I

> would be more than happy to

> show/tell and be involved.

>

> I know you weren't denegrating Ohio.....sometimes

> the less poisoned but small

> places (in a sense) are better soil for real work.

>

> Richard

>

 

 

 

 

 

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