Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Hi All, & Hi Attilio, Attilio wrote re points for weight loss: > Here is the order that they should be punctured: CV12, CV10, CV06, > CV04, SP15, ST24, ST26. Is this formula used to regain lost weight, or to lose weight in obesity? > The same points are used for all types of patients. Needles are > retained for roughly 25 mins without manipulation. Attilio I doubt if the ORDER of needling has anything to do with the clinical outcome. Have other Listers comments on whether or not ORDER of needling influences results? In either case, this is another example of modern Chinese use of Cookbook AP without any attempt to differentiate syndromes! In WM, weight loss can be due to many causes, including undernutrition, appetite loss, ulcers, parasitism, intercurrent diseases & infections, toxins, cancer, organ DysFx, hormonal DysFx (incl hyperthyroidism), etc, etc. In TCM, it can arise in many syndromes, esp those of LV, SP, SJM (SP-ST), ST, SI-LI, KI (ovary), etc. My Cookbook Points for unexplained weight loss would include: ST36, BL21, PC06, CV12 [the main points for gastrointestinal problems]. I would also consider Shu & Mu points points for LV, ST- SI-LI, SP, KI, etc, depending on the suspected cause(s) of the weight loss. In thyroid problems, one should also add points for thyroid function. In parasitism or malnutrition, one should address these. In cancer, one should address the affected organs and the immune system, etc. Best regards, Email: < WORK : Teagasc Research Management, Sandymount Ave., Dublin 4, Ireland Mobile: 353-; [in the Republic: 0] HOME : 1 Esker Lawns, Lucan, Dublin, Ireland Tel : 353-; [in the Republic: 0] WWW : http://homepage.eircom.net/~progers/searchap.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 For me, this is a another example of a sad degeneration of a high art practiced since antiquity. As you note here, there are many patterns and effected channels that relate to issues of weight, and treatment should be based on these patterns. I seriously doubt any CM herbalist in China would resort to such a 'one-prescription-treats-all' approach! On Apr 20, 2004, at 7:59 PM, wrote: > > In either case, this is another example of modern Chinese use of > Cookbook AP without any attempt to differentiate syndromes! > > In WM, weight loss can be due to many causes, including > undernutrition, appetite loss, ulcers, parasitism, intercurrent > diseases & infections, toxins, cancer, organ DysFx, hormonal > DysFx (incl hyperthyroidism), etc, etc. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Hi Phil and Zev, These points are used to lose weight for those that feel they are overweight. I have to admit one or two didn't look overweight at all, but others clearly where. Once the needles have been inserted for roughly 25 mins, the slendertone (a large TENS machine) is attached to patient's abdomens, again for about 20 mins. Yes, of course this is a cookbook approach and coming from China is a bit shocking, but this may just be an isolated example. A few TCM practitioners have a western medical stance in their diagnosing and treatment as I stated before whilst in the neurology dept. The treatment for facial paralysis and pain however, from another doctor there, is based upon the patient's individual needs at the time of treatment. Points are generally the same, but do differ depending on the patient's syndrome differentiation, constitution, etc. Kind regards Attilio <Chinese Traditional Medicine> Chinese Traditional Medicine [zrosenbe] 21 April 2004 05:19 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Acupuncture for Weight Loss For me, this is a another example of a sad degeneration of a high art practiced since antiquity. As you note here, there are many patterns and effected channels that relate to issues of weight, and treatment should be based on these patterns. I seriously doubt any CM herbalist in China would resort to such a 'one-prescription-treats-all' approach! On Apr 20, 2004, at 7:59 PM, wrote: > > In either case, this is another example of modern Chinese use of > Cookbook AP without any attempt to differentiate syndromes! > > In WM, weight loss can be due to many causes, including > undernutrition, appetite loss, ulcers, parasitism, intercurrent > diseases & infections, toxins, cancer, organ DysFx, hormonal > DysFx (incl hyperthyroidism), etc, etc. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Hi Phil, I also believe in symbolism as a powerful tool that can be used in medicine. I don't believe that if you asked the weight lost acupuncturist specialist that she would say puncturing the points in the order that she did, has any particular benefit to the patient. However, I believe that they do. If you puncture these points in the order I wrote, it makes a cross. I think that by using powerful symbols in acupuncture, it can have a strong positive benefit to patients. Another example is to puncture needles so that a triangle is made, a very useful and powerful tool which I've seen used to great benefit in clinical practice. Kind regards Attilio <Chinese Traditional Medicine> Chinese Traditional Medicine [] 21 April 2004 04:00 pa-l ; traditional_Chinese_Medicine Re: Acupuncture for Weight Loss Hi All, & Hi Attilio, I doubt if the ORDER of needling has anything to do with the clinical outcome. Have other Listers comments on whether or not ORDER of needling influences results? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Hi Phil & Hi All; > wrote: >I doubt if the ORDER of needling has anything to do >with the clinical outcome. Have other Listers >comments on whether or not ORDER of needling >influences results? If we use extraordinary channels and crossing points (SI 3 & UB 60 /LU 7 & K 6 or others), order of needling makes difference.For cervical problems we prick SI 3 first then UB 60 and vice versa for lumbar prolems.In these circumstances I've experienced in wel over 2000 cases that order of needling is important. In other routine points I've seen no difference. Best regards, Dr Shahzad Anwar. ===== Dr Shahzad Anwar M.B.B.S(Pak.), DipA/C(Pak.) Lic.A/C(China), IFFATANWAR MEDICAL ACUPUNCTURE COMPLEX & AnwarShah's First C.P & Paralysis Research Center www.firstcpcenter.org 17-C, MAIN BOULEVARD FAISAL TOWN, LAHORE PAKISTAN. Ph.No.(Clinic):00 92 42 5168234 Ph.No.(Mobile):00 92 300 9400049 ______________________ Messenger - Communicate instantly... " Ping " your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger./download/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 phil, I agree that this seems like another cookbook acupuncture point prescription, of which there are many. And while I would tailor a prescription based on the diagnosis of the patient, I also have to agree that I've seen a point prescription very close to this one work fairly well. One of the chinese instructors at the school I used to go used a similar one for the patient to lose weight. The only difference I can remember is using more points along the stomach channel on the left side of the patient in the abdomen, apparently to stimulate the descending colon. --brian <@e...> wrote: > Attilio wrote re points for weight loss: > > Here is the order that they should be punctured: CV12, CV10, CV06, > > CV04, SP15, ST24, ST26. > > > In either case, this is another example of modern Chinese use of > Cookbook AP without any attempt to differentiate syndromes! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2004 Report Share Posted April 21, 2004 Were all the points stimulated with the tens and in what order. Thanks Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote:Hi Phil and Zev, These points are used to lose weight for those that feel they are overweight. I have to admit one or two didn't look overweight at all, but others clearly where. Once the needles have been inserted for roughly 25 mins, the slendertone (a large TENS machine) is attached to patient's abdomens, again for about 20 mins. Yes, of course this is a cookbook approach and coming from China is a bit shocking, but this may just be an isolated example. A few TCM practitioners have a western medical stance in their diagnosing and treatment as I stated before whilst in the neurology dept. The treatment for facial paralysis and pain however, from another doctor there, is based upon the patient's individual needs at the time of treatment. Points are generally the same, but do differ depending on the patient's syndrome differentiation, constitution, etc. Kind regards Attilio <Chinese Traditional Medicine> Chinese Traditional Medicine [zrosenbe] 21 April 2004 05:19 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Acupuncture for Weight Loss For me, this is a another example of a sad degeneration of a high art practiced since antiquity. As you note here, there are many patterns and effected channels that relate to issues of weight, and treatment should be based on these patterns. I seriously doubt any CM herbalist in China would resort to such a 'one-prescription-treats-all' approach! On Apr 20, 2004, at 7:59 PM, wrote: > > In either case, this is another example of modern Chinese use of > Cookbook AP without any attempt to differentiate syndromes! > > In WM, weight loss can be due to many causes, including > undernutrition, appetite loss, ulcers, parasitism, intercurrent > diseases & infections, toxins, cancer, organ DysFx, hormonal > DysFx (incl hyperthyroidism), etc, etc. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2004 Report Share Posted April 22, 2004 Hi Brian, The slender-tone machine which is like a set of TENS pads cover the whole abdomen and therefore stimulate all the abdominal points at the same time. Kind regards Attilio Chinese Traditional Medicine Brian Hardy [mischievous00] 21 April 2004 17:06 Chinese Medicine RE: Re: Acupuncture for Weight Loss Were all the points stimulated with the tens and in what order. Thanks Attilio D'Alberto <attiliodalberto wrote:Hi Phil and Zev, These points are used to lose weight for those that feel they are overweight. I have to admit one or two didn't look overweight at all, but others clearly where. Once the needles have been inserted for roughly 25 mins, the slendertone (a large TENS machine) is attached to patient's abdomens, again for about 20 mins. Yes, of course this is a cookbook approach and coming from China is a bit shocking, but this may just be an isolated example. A few TCM practitioners have a western medical stance in their diagnosing and treatment as I stated before whilst in the neurology dept. The treatment for facial paralysis and pain however, from another doctor there, is based upon the patient's individual needs at the time of treatment. Points are generally the same, but do differ depending on the patient's syndrome differentiation, constitution, etc. Kind regards Attilio <Chinese Traditional Medicine> Chinese Traditional Medicine [zrosenbe] 21 April 2004 05:19 Chinese Medicine Re: Re: Acupuncture for Weight Loss For me, this is a another example of a sad degeneration of a high art practiced since antiquity. As you note here, there are many patterns and effected channels that relate to issues of weight, and treatment should be based on these patterns. I seriously doubt any CM herbalist in China would resort to such a 'one-prescription-treats-all' approach! On Apr 20, 2004, at 7:59 PM, wrote: > > In either case, this is another example of modern Chinese use of > Cookbook AP without any attempt to differentiate syndromes! > > In WM, weight loss can be due to many causes, including > undernutrition, appetite loss, ulcers, parasitism, intercurrent > diseases & infections, toxins, cancer, organ DysFx, hormonal DysFx > (incl hyperthyroidism), etc, etc. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Attilio once referred to a protocol he learned in China and it may in the archives. dr holmes Yuly Fridman wrote: > I work as part time acupuncturist in outpatient physical therapy > clinic.I work for only few months but most asked question my patients > and colleges ask: do you treat obesity? I am not sure where to start, > either using auricular protocol from Miriam Lee's book or there was > one article in Acupuncture Today with description of weight loss > program in China. What is the best protocol or program in your opinion > and how effective is it? What points and/or herbs do you recommend? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Yes, the weight loss acupuncture protocol is in the files section of the group. Attilio Chinese Medicine , dkakobad <dkaikobad@c...> wrote: > Attilio once referred to a protocol he learned in China and it may in > the archives. > > dr holmes > > Yuly Fridman wrote: > > > I work as part time acupuncturist in outpatient physical therapy > > clinic.I work for only few months but most asked question my patients > > and colleges ask: do you treat obesity? I am not sure where to start, > > either using auricular protocol from Miriam Lee's book or there was > > one article in Acupuncture Today with description of weight loss > > program in China. What is the best protocol or program in your opinion > > and how effective is it? What points and/or herbs do you recommend? > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 How many patients did you treat and what the results with this treatment, Attilio? Something else to add to this protocol? Auricular points, seeds? herbs? Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Yes, the weight loss acupuncture protocol is in the files section of > the group. > > Attilio > > > Chinese Medicine , dkakobad > <dkaikobad@c...> wrote: > > Attilio once referred to a protocol he learned in China and it may > in > > the archives. > > > > dr holmes > > > > Yuly Fridman wrote: > > > > > I work as part time acupuncturist in outpatient physical therapy > > > clinic.I work for only few months but most asked question my > patients > > > and colleges ask: do you treat obesity? I am not sure where to > start, > > > either using auricular protocol from Miriam Lee's book or > there was > > > one article in Acupuncture Today with description of weight loss > > > program in China. What is the best protocol or program in your > opinion > > > and how effective is it? What points and/or herbs do you > recommend? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 This was given before to the group. About this time last year. See the archives. Kind regards Attilio D'Alberto Doctor of (Beijing, China) BSc (Hons) TCM MATCM 07786198900 attiliodalberto <http://www.attiliodalberto.com/> www.attiliodalberto.com Chinese Medicine Chinese Medicine On Behalf Of Yuly Fridman 12 May 2005 02:32 Chinese Medicine Re: Acupuncture for Weight Loss How many patients did you treat and what the results with this treatment, Attilio? Something else to add to this protocol? Auricular points, seeds? herbs? Chinese Medicine , " Attilio DAlberto " <attiliodalberto> wrote: > Yes, the weight loss acupuncture protocol is in the files section of > the group. > > Attilio > > > Chinese Medicine , dkakobad > <dkaikobad@c...> wrote: > > Attilio once referred to a protocol he learned in China and it may > in > > the archives. > > > > dr holmes > > > > Yuly Fridman wrote: > > > > > I work as part time acupuncturist in outpatient physical therapy > > > clinic.I work for only few months but most asked question my > patients > > > and colleges ask: do you treat obesity? I am not sure where to > start, > > > either using auricular protocol from Miriam Lee's book or > there was > > > one article in Acupuncture Today with description of weight loss > > > program in China. What is the best protocol or program in your > opinion > > > and how effective is it? What points and/or herbs do you > recommend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 Chinese Medicine , " Yuly Fridman " <yulfrid8@e...> wrote: > I work as part time acupuncturist in outpatient physical therapy > clinic.I work for only few months but most asked question my patients > and colleges ask: do you treat obesity? I am not sure where to start, > either using auricular protocol from Miriam Lee's book or there was > one article in Acupuncture Today with description of weight loss > program in China. What is the best protocol or program in your opinion > and how effective is it? What points and/or herbs do you recommend? Honora Lee Wolfe published a translation of a Chinese weight loss protocol at http://www.bluepoppy.com/press/journal/issues/articles/apr05/apr05_ezine_obesity\ _acu.cfm Regards, Tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2005 Report Share Posted September 5, 2005 Hi! I'm new to the group...I was wondering if anyone was familiar with adding acupuncture to already instituted weight loss practices such as better nutrition and increasing exercise? Any info would be greatly appreciated! Thank You! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2005 Report Share Posted September 5, 2005 you can do it in point mode, or by 5 e profile 5 e profile would be different for each patient together that & your prior set up would be dynamically effective dr holmes enlyghtened wrote: > Hi! I'm new to the group...I was wondering if anyone was familiar > with adding acupuncture to already instituted weight loss practices > such as better nutrition and increasing exercise? Any info would be > greatly appreciated! Thank You! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 6, 2005 Report Share Posted September 6, 2005 I use it on a lot of my patients. It works well and some times rally well up to a point. What I mean is that it works and patients lose weight and lose inches but after two or three months it is not as effict. I use and abdomal set of points along with SP4 and ST34. Most of my patients are damp and SP9 needle and moxa works well. I also make all my weight lose patients use chop sticks, by using them they slow down when they eat. If they said I see Chinese people eating fast with chop sticks you say how many fat Chinese people do you know. They puts and end to that topic. I use e-stim on four of my abdomal needles because it make them feel full and they eat less. Most on the times when a patient comes to me for weight lose there is some thing else they want treatment for. Some of times it can be a really big issue. Also the needles you use has a big part in how well your results turn out. Yes there is a correct needle and a wrong neele. Well I hope this helps you. John Howard L.Ac Dilp Ac. --- enlyghtened <enlyghtened wrote: > Hi! I'm new to the group...I was wondering if > anyone was familiar > with adding acupuncture to already instituted weight > loss practices > such as better nutrition and increasing exercise? > Any info would be > greatly appreciated! Thank You! > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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